What to do about the prop problem.

twinytwo

So we have until the 2014 to find props from somewhere( obviously the sooner the better. I would rather not ever see saturday happen again)... Ross isnt getting any younger and until we find someone else he will be expected to play every minute of every game.

Not knowing much at the front row. What choices do we have? from everyones point of view what is the most efficient way to solve the problem

Shane Byrne made a very good point that at underage etc scrums are not allowed to be pushed more than a meter??.. while there may be a saftey aspect to this .. would it not futher diminish the development of any future props?

Sandwlch

twinytwo wrote: »

Shane Byrne made a very good point that at underage etc scrums are not allowed to be pushed more than a meter??.. while there may be a saftey aspect to this .. would it not futher diminish the development of any future props?

Are we unique on this point for underage scrums or is it the same in all countries ?

phog

22 man squads for international and 23 man squads for Pro12 and H/C are a bigger problem than youngsters not pushing more than a meter.

GerM

phog wrote: »

22 man squads for international and 23 man squads for Pro12 and H/C are a bigger problem than youngsters not pushing more than a meter.

We can work around that by sticking two props on the bench regardless. Several of our backs cover different positions. Sexton covers centre in DK's mind. McFadden isn't necessary in reality. I'd rather we stuck 2 props in and used it tactically to up the tempo in the last 20 minutes than brought on a winger that's not going to see the ball for the most part. Not an ideal situation but something that we should be looking at or utilising one of our blindside/lock options. It's something that happens regularly in other countries where they select a 5/2 split.

chris85

I think the scrum is dominating the game too much. Hard for the spectator to watch. I play hooker and like scrum time to play in but watching constant resets and dangerous play by some players too often the scrum will soon become a liability. The power in the scrum at the top level is immense and needs to be controlled to reduce focus on it and treat it as it is which is a restart to the game.

Watching the Leinster schools cup final yesterday was great as the scrum was quick and easy with not a whole lot of resets. Was nice to watch to be honest. Much more enjoyable.

Hagz

Ah sure we'll be grand come 2014. Ulster are developing McAllister and Macklin. Munster have someone who's highly rated in John Ryan, and Leinster have a wealth of props. Unfortunately there is no quick fix, just a matter of being patient. The most available solution in my eyes is for Leinster to not renew VDM's contract and expose McGrath to consistent senior rugby, same story with Hagan.

ormond lad

Sandwlch wrote: »

Are we unique on this point for underage scrums or is it the same in all countries ?

Im fairly sure its the same everywhere and everyone can only push 1.5m underage

dougieruggie

To be honest, I think its time that the only young prop that we have who was is excellent at scrummaging gets gametime. That prop is Jack McGrath. I've watched him in the AIL, for Leinster A and even for the Leinster senior side and he is utterly dominant at scrum time. He covers both sides as well although Leinster seem to have him concentrating solely at loosehead.

Why hasn't he gotten more gametime? The 'he isn't ready' argument doesn't hold water as whenever hes come on for the Leinster senior side hes had no problems in the scrum. Hes captaining Leinster A as well and has been one of their stand out performers in the pack. This guy has been talked about since schools level as potentially becoming one of the best scrummagers Ireland has ever produced. Brent Pope even gave him a mention on Saturday, anyone whose seen this guy has been impressed.

irishbucsfan

When the new rules come in we'll see 1 foreign tighthead playing rugby in the country (+connacht). That's a much better situation than we have now, with Botha, Afoa and Nathan White looking like being the starters at tighthead in the Heineken cup quarter finals.

Of course some people think that's a bad thing somehow.

CIARAN_BOYLE

dougieruggie wrote: »

To be honest, I think its time that the only young prop that we have who was is excellent at scrummaging gets gametime. That prop is Jack McGrath. I've watched him in the AIL, for Leinster A and even for the Leinster senior side and he is utterly dominant at scrum time. He covers both sides as well although Leinster seem to have him concentrating solely at loosehead.

Why hasn't he gotten more gametime? The 'he isn't ready' argument doesn't hold water as whenever hes come on for the Leinster senior side hes had no problems in the scrum. Hes captaining Leinster A as well and has been one of their stand out performers in the pack. This guy has been talked about since schools level as potentially becoming one of the best scrummagers Ireland has ever produced. Brent Pope even gave him a mention on Saturday, anyone whose seen this guy has been impressed.

VDM is better at Leinster but on the last year of his contract so chances are that he will move on and McGrath will be promoted to the first choice 23

Otacon

I wonder which of the provinces will be first to try and sign John Andress. Twenty-eight years old, playing regularly and also beating players like Castrogiovanni regularly.

Hagz

Otacon wrote: »

I wonder which of the provinces will be first to try and sign John Andress. Twenty-eight years old, playing regularly and also beating players like Castrogiovanni regularly.

Worcester have signed him on a two year deal. He's demolished the likes of Jenkins and Tonga'uiha yet he hasn't been involved in the Irish set-up. I understand the idea of preference towards Irish based players, but when it comes to an area like prop, we should be looking to grab anyone who's playing well no matter where they're playing.

Monty Burnz

Otacon wrote: »

I wonder which of the provinces will be first to try and sign John Andress. Twenty-eight years old, playing regularly and also beating players like Castrogiovanni regularly.

I thought he was a tight head?

Otacon

Hagz wrote: »

Worcester have signed him on a two year deal. He's demolished the likes of Jenkins and Tonga'uiha yet he hasn't been involved in the Irish set-up. I understand the idea of preference towards Irish based players, but when it comes to an area like prop, we should be looking to grab anyone who's playing well no matter where they're playing.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I thought he was a tight head?

Sorry, meant Tonga'uiha

Monty Burnz

If he can scrummage at international level, it's criminal that he hasn't been parachuted into the squad already. :eek:

Otacon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If he can scrummage at international level, it's criminal that he hasn't been parachuted into the squad already. :eek:

The problem is, we don't know if he can scrummage at international level as he has not been called upon. Unless he moves back to an Irish province, I can't see it happening either.

shuffol

It seemed to be lost on a lot of people that the reason we got destroyed in the scrum saturday wasnt because of a desperate shortage of tighteads in the country, even if we did have another TH of international class he wouldnt have been near the squad unless he could've covered both sides.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Otacon wrote: »

The problem is, we don't know if he can scrummage at international level as he has not been called upon. Unless he moves back to an Irish province, I can't see it happening either.

Its not exactly like he gets a lot of gametime in England, I made this point in another thread
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=8356&includeref=dynamic
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/players_statistics_archive.php?player=8775&includeref=dynamic

ambid

The problem is Ireland has regularly struggled to produce props so surely a radical change to the system is necessary. If we think back eight to ten years, then we had just about two test quality props and although those people have changed but we still have only two test quality props.

We talk about gametime but that alone is too simplistic. Buckley had plenty of gametime but that didn't turn him into a good prop. Ah You gets plenty of gametime in Connacht but according to most Connacht fans he is still not reaching the Pro12 quality. No amount of gametime will turn Fitzpatrick into test quality.

Surely the problem is that Ireland is just not producing enough quality props so the solution must be to develop some sort of national academy specifically for promising props. There has been a dramatic improvement in Leinster props since Greg Feek arrived, so imagine how regular access to his expertise could improve players like McAlister, Archer, Maguire as well as McGrath, O'Connell, Moore and Furlong.

We now have guys with some raw talent so to maximise their potential then surely an academy specifically devoted to props from all provinces is the solution we need. It's a long term solution but the current system is failing, and has been failing for the past ten years, so a radical solution is necessary.

shuffol

Otacon wrote: »

The problem is, we don't know if he can scrummage at international level as he has not been called upon. Unless he moves back to an Irish province, I can't see it happening either.

In Thornleys article he said Kidney listed the other options at TH, Loughney, Archer and Hagan. The guy might as well not exist.

Otacon

Would we not be better off have another TH in the squad who can then go to LH, rather than a LH who can go to TH? It seems to be generally accepted that TH is the tougher position.

cb_

ambid wrote: »

The problem is Ireland has regularly struggled to produce props so surely a radical change to the system is necessary. If we think back eight to ten years, then we had just about two test quality props and although those people have changed but we still have only two test quality props.

We talk about gametime but that alone is too simplistic. Buckley had plenty of gametime but that didn't turn him into a good prop. Ah You gets plenty of gametime in Connacht but according to most Connacht fans he is still not reaching the Pro12 quality. No amount of gametime will turn Fitzpatrick into test quality.

Surely the problem is that Ireland is just not producing enough quality props so the solution must be to develop some sort of national academy specifically for promising props. There has been a dramatic improvement in Leinster props since Greg Feek arrived, so imagine how regular access to his expertise could improve players like McAlister, Archer, Maguire as well as McGrath, O'Connell, Moore and Furlong.

We now have guys with some raw talent so to maximise their potential then surely an academy specifically devoted to props from all provinces is the solution we need. It's a long term solution but the current system is failing, and has been failing for the past ten years, so a radical solution is necessary.

I posted this exact same suggestion yesterday. I think Smal has spoken of this in the past and it is the obvious long term solution to our problems. It's a very specialised area, perhaps the most specialised in the game, so it merits special attention. I think a forwards school, where our most promising young props and second rows should spend three days a week under the guidance of some top forwards coaches. It would clearly need some investment, but I think if it were funded by the IRFU with contributions from each of the provinces and were based somewhere central like Athlone, there would be no reason why this should break the bank. I think we've already got the raw material in terms of talent at U20 level, so there's no reason why 4 years from now we couldn't be seeing a reasonable stream of players begin to emerge. I genuinely believe thatthis is a very easy problem to solve in the long term; it's just the immediate future where this needs be a problem...

Monty Burnz

How about a TV show where teenagers compete to have the chance to become Ireland's biggest prop star?

Prop Idol?

Otacon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How about a TV show where teenagers compete to have the chance to become Ireland's biggest prop star?

Prop Idol?

I'm a Prop... Get Me Stuck In There!

I am pie

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How about a TV show where teenagers compete to have the chance to become Ireland's biggest prop star?

Prop Idol?

Woohoo, I've made it through to the Judges Farm.

Benny Cake

I posted this on another thread yesterday but its probably more relevant here...

There are a few issues contributing to our lack of props.

1. Nobody wants their kids playing prop, its deemed a "dangerous" position & parents would rather see their little Johnny playing anywhere other than front row.

2. Schools and underage clubs play guys who should be props, in the backrow to make the best use of their skills. I know from a few guys who have spent time playing at the lower levels in New Zealand that guys are specifically targetted at schools level & encouraged to move from 6/7 to 1/3. You cant blame the school teams for playing a guy whos 6ft1 & 16 stone in the backrow as that is where you will get him on the ball most. However, in the long run, that player might be better served converting to prop if they have a desire to make it as a pro. Guys like Sean O'Brien, Denis Leamy are top players in their own right but maybe it would have served the greater good if they played front row from the age of 16 on... I can think of countless backrow forwards from my time playing schools that were among the best in the country at the time but clearly never had the height/pace to step up to the next level.

Until attitudes to front row players changes at grass roots level we will continue to struggle for props, while we drown in a sea of backrow forwards.

pickarooney

They need to make it more clear to the strong kids just how much a tighthead earns.

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

They need to make it more clear to the strong kids just how much a tighthead earns.

Maybe do a photo shoot with Mike Ross covered in bling on a yacht surrounded by scantily clad women

Hottowel

To Answer the question.

Are we the only ones to have a restriction of 1.5 meters at schools level.


Ourselves and Scotland are the only two countries that this exists. I watched the Schools game Yesterday and it was a fantastic game to watch. Clongowes clearly had the better scrum but it was of no advantage to them as they could only go 1.5 meters. They basically pushed michaels 1.5 meters and michaels were able to keep the ball, then throw it out their superior backline. Great to watch the only problem is if that match was an international Michaels would have lost in my opinion. It would have been like Ireland V England.

arodabomb

Otacon wrote: »

I'm a Prop... Get Me Stuck In There!

I think it needs to be much more serious than that. A Prop Gun Academy is the only way to go. :pac:

Fireball07

I do think coaching proper scrummaging from a younger age will help the problem. I'm not sure what the situation is in other countries but surely we should be trying to copy whatever the model is in South Africa and New Zealand.

Obviously there are a few drawbacks...the younger players are, you don't know how they're going to develop, you could miss out on someone who could be the perfect prop. Obviously it could be seen as dangerous and parents don't want their children playing there.

Hippo

phog wrote: »

22 man squads for international and 23 man squads for Pro12 and H/C are a bigger problem than youngsters not pushing more than a meter.

This is precisely the problem. Your reserve prop has to be able to play both sides, and as we saw, that's a huge ask. It's incredible that the 6n still hasn't addressed this issue.

davegrohl48

Scouting out talent at u16 and moving them into better clubs. Don't let possible good props head off to College giving up the game. Its the one position where ya have to have the physical capability, so a wide pool of young players with those characteristics is a must.
Less foreign props at provincial level to give a better possibility of a career to guys aged 19/20.

buck65

Hey OP we have til 2014 to get our props sorted? Is International
rugby cancelled for the next 2 seasons so?
Again this fixation on a competition that reaching the last 4 is our aim, what about winning a competition that we have a hope of winning instead.

Annabella1

Been saying it for years....time to extend the farm relief scheme to Argentina.Bring in 10-15 young hard men every year to work/play rugby
Problem solved

totallegend

buck65 wrote: »

Hey OP we have til 2014 to get our props sorted? Is International
rugby cancelled for the next 2 seasons so?
Again this fixation on a competition that reaching the last 4 is our aim, what about winning a competition that we have a hope of winning instead.

I presume this is a reference to the implementation of the niq laws which will mean only two foreign props between the three provinces.

irishbucsfan

John Andress is the sort of player who wouldn't get anywhere near the field for a year with leinster, just like Ross. Basically a giant lump of ulster beef. He is a good scrummager though, that can't be denied.

Samich

I think the engage part of the scrum will eventually go in the future, the push would still mean a good battle in the scrums, making sure the ball goes in straight would help it too.

Scrums surely lead to back injuries in the future.

Sindri

pickarooney wrote: »

They need to make it more clear to the strong fat kids just how much a tighthead earns.

FYP

The other thing about underage TH, and this was seen with Ah You, they usually put the heavier lads into the frontrow and they usually destroy their counterparts. Whereas these lads when they make the step up may not actually be good enough.

Clearlier

I have a brother who plays prop and who got dropped from his school team once the coach realised that you didn't actually need props. Both props were replaced with lightweight flankers. I can't believe that this is the only school in which this happened. How many props drift out of the game at underage level because their contribution isn't valued within the rules that are in place? I'm not sure what the answer is but to suggest that the schools rules has no impact is peculiar to me.

dougieruggie

The solution is easy:

Take away the 1.5metre rule at schools level so that scrums become important again.

liam12989

wonder is their any georgians or agentines with irish grandmothers?

Samich

dougieruggie wrote: »

The solution is easy:

Take away the 1.5metre rule at schools level so that scrums become important again.

What would that gain??????

rrpc

Samich wrote: »

What would that gain??????

More injuries

Monty Burnz

Samich wrote: »

I think the engage part of the scrum will eventually go in the future, the push would still mean a good battle in the scrums, making sure the ball goes in straight would help it too.

Scrums surely lead to back injuries in the future.

I don't understand the point of the hit at all.

Here's how I see it working: the scrums form up, and push into each other, taking the strain. The referee then gives an instruction to the scrumhalf to put the ball in, which is a signal to the teams to start pushing. Scruhalf has a couple of seconds to put it, or lose possession. How many scrums would collapse under this system? Sure, you lose the spectacle of the hit - but how much time does that waste per game?

As it is, most scrums seem to collapse at the hit - so take it out.

Monty Burnz

Samich wrote: »

What would that gain??????

It would mean schools are incentivised to play props who are suited to propping, rather than 2 additional wing forwards who don't cost the team a thing if they are pushed back a mere 1.5 metres.

Net result - more prop-shaped props coming out of schools rugby.

Samich

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't understand the point of the hit at all.

Here's how I see it working: the scrums form up, and push into each other, taking the strain. The referee then gives an instruction to the scrumhalf to put the ball in, which is a signal to the teams to start pushing. Scruhalf has a couple of seconds to put it, or lose possession. How many scrums would collapse under this system? Sure, you lose the spectacle of the hit - but how much time does that waste per game?

As it is, most scrums seem to collapse at the hit - so take it out.

It also means that the front row have a good opportunity to get in a good position which means better technique. At the moment when the hit goes in if the technique isn't perfect you'll suffer greatly and will collapse the scrum.

The game has moved in greatly from the past and this will eventually come in as scrums will probably lead to spine injuries in the future

Samich

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It would mean schools are incentivised to play props who are suited to propping, rather than 2 additional wing forwards who don't cost the team a thing if they are pushed back a mere 1.5 metres.

Net result - more prop-shaped props coming out of schools rugby.

i) Technique outweighs size.
ii) I always see the bigger lads in the front row, and if they're not played then it's due to being not fit enough.
iii) Why would a team sacrafice going back 1.5m, they'll eventually just turn over ball?

dougieruggie

Samich wrote: »

i) Technique outweighs size.
ii) I always see the bigger lads in the front row, and if they're not played then it's due to being not fit enough.
iii) Why would a team sacrafice going back 1.5m, they'll eventually just turn over ball?

Because they don't turn over ball. Thats the point.

When I played schools rugby do you know how much time we dedicated to scrummaging? Maybe 5-10 minutes 3-4 times a week. Why? because it wasn't important, plain and simple.

ambid

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't understand the point of the hit at all.

Here's how I see it working: the scrums form up, and push into each other, taking the strain. The referee then gives an instruction to the scrumhalf to put the ball in, which is a signal to the teams to start pushing. Scruhalf has a couple of seconds to put it, or lose possession. How many scrums would collapse under this system? Sure, you lose the spectacle of the hit - but how much time does that waste per game?

As it is, most scrums seem to collapse at the hit - so take it out.

Did you read Brian Moore's autobiography? He had an interesting section on scrums at the back.

He hates the hit and recalls when he was playing the hit wasn't a factor so technique was more important, smaller more skillful guys played, and the scrum was stable. Because it was stable both hookers tried to hook so it was a real contest. He advocated returning to that.

It was partly rose tinted glasses "when I was a young fella..." kind of stuff, but it made sense to me.

Monty Burnz

ambid wrote: »

Did you read Brian Moore's autobiography? He had an interesting section on scrums at the back.

I haven't read it but I should - not least because Moore is an amusing and interesting guy (that I used to hate).