Money In Schools Rugby: Specifically Leinster

rugbyman2015

Just a short thread here. Don't expect it to go on forever.

This has really had me thinking for a couple of years now. As you're aware of how professional schools rugby in the country has become (especially in the Leinster Schools Senior Cup), I'm curious as to how much money is being allocated each year in the school's rugby budget.

It's well known that money dictates much proceedings and is the key to success for so many people. Having watched those St Michael's boys win today in the final against Clongowes, I wonder how they have reached 6 junior finals in a row, 2 senior cup champions (2007, 2012) and regular places in the semi finals each year.

Anybody have any idea how much the likes of Belvedere, Blackrock, Clongowes, St Michael's, Terenure, Castleknock etc.. are funding their rugby budgets per annum?

[Jackass]

I don't know the exact numbers, but theirs tiered funding from the Leinster branch to schools participating in the senior cup proper, and also extra grant money to big rugby schools for maintaining coaching standards etc., as it's in Leinsters interest that these schools with massive playing numbers get the most out of their players, as they are effectively "pre-academies" for Leinster.

Development schols get grants also, but not as much afaik (as they don't produce as much for Leinster, but are funded to help grow the sport and increase participation first and foremost).

It is quite striking though that it took Michaels over 150 years to win a senior cup, and now they are a major player, without big changes to participation numbers around the big schools as a whole, and this must be down to increased funding for facilities and coaching.

Schools rugby is big big business though, that's for sure. Leinster sell out Donnybrook and RDS several times a season, and it's not cheap (20 in for adult + 10 into stand iirc), plus powerade sponsorship, plus whatever TV revenue they get...the whole competition probably gets in the region of 50,000 through the gates each season...

rugbyman2015

I heard something ridiculous that Michael's spend a million each year on rugby. Couldn't be true, surely?

Castleknock's is something in the region of 100'000 euro a year on rugby.

ormond lad

Ive a friend teaching in a primary school of 1 of the leinster rugby schools who is coaching in their sec school and gets around 15 euro an hour for 4 or 5 hours a week for helping coach 1 of the rugby teams in the sec school. So you can take it that much more is spent on senior coaches etc so the overall figure spent on rugby will be fairly high

Sandwlch

[Jackass] wrote: »

It is quite striking though that it took Michaels over 150 years to win a senior cup

Not really. St Michaels first entered the senior cup about 1980 or so

Hagz

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

I heard something ridiculous that Michael's spend a million each year on rugby. Couldn't be true, surely?

Castleknock's is something in the region of 100'000 euro a year on rugby.

Haha, that is definitely not true. Wouldn't be any where close to a million in any of the schools.

dougieruggie

You'd be suprised to know that a lot of the head coaches of senior cup teams are actually teachers in that school. I know that schools such as Terenure, St.Marys, Castleknock spend **** all on coaching.

Schools who tend to poorly i.e Gerrads, Gonzaga etc. are the ones who spend an outrageous amount on coaches. Gerrards had Tony Ward and a number of former pro players on their pay roll at one stage.

Although Michaels do have a massive budget. Their gym is considered one of the best gyms in Ireland equipment wise. They have one of the best sports physios on their pay roll as well.

Offside

dougieruggie wrote: »

You'd be suprised to know that a lot of the head coaches of senior cup teams are actually teachers in that school. I know that schools such as Terenure, St.Marys, Castleknock spend **** all on coaching.

Schools who tend to poorly i.e Gerrads, Gonzaga etc. are the ones who spend an outrageous amount on coaches. Gerrards had Tony Ward and a number of former pro players on their pay roll at one stage.

Although Michaels do have a massive budget. Their gym is considered one of the best gyms in Ireland equipment wise. They have one of the best sports physios on their pay roll as well.

While I don't doubt Gerards have a big budget, you can hardly accuse them of having done poorly in recent years and they have been very successful, especially considering their numbers. Gonzaga would spend as much on rugby as any of the first schools you mentioned, probably less than Terenure as they have far less pupils. All the head coaches are teachers except for the Senior coach who was a teacher until this year, moved to Director of Rugby in UCD but stayed on as head coach.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Hagz wrote: »

Haha, that is definitely not true. Wouldn't be any where close to a million in any of the schools.

maybe if you figured depreciation on facilities but not the actual budget.

rugbyman2015

Really lads, my question here is does spending more money on your rugby budget bring results?
I know its not guaranteed success and the quality of talent coming through the school is another factor but I'd say schools like 'Rock and Clongowes have to be spending a fair bit when you think of how professional the set up is at those schools.

Hagz

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Really lads, my question here is does spending more money on your rugby budget bring results?
I know its not guaranteed success and the quality of talent coming through the school is another factor but I'd say schools like 'Rock and Clongowes have to be spending a fair bit when you think of how professional the set up is at those schools.

I don't really think spending big money equals results. As someone else posted, most coaches are teachers or past students. Even just looking at Blackrock, their facilities wouldn't exactly be extra-ordinary. Gonzaga would have a more advanced gym than Blackrock.

Having a large year group definitely helps though. A school like Blackrock would have over 300 students to choose from each year. You have to take into account the ethos of the school as well. No amount of money can buy you players who've wanted nothing more than winning a schools cup since they were 10 years old.

thebaz

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Really lads, my question here is does spending more money on your rugby budget bring results?

boarding schools seam to be doing really well now for their size - think Michaels is similar in size to marys, zaga or monkstown , but their recent record is a lot better , not sure if this is down to money or more hunger to win rugby

one thing , I would be amazed if they are even spending 100k + on rugby , in these dark days

matthew8

rugbyman2015 wrote: »

Really lads, my question here is does spending more money on your rugby budget bring results?
I know its not guaranteed success and the quality of talent coming through the school is another factor but I'd say schools like 'Rock and Clongowes have to be spending a fair bit when you think of how professional the set up is at those schools.

Clongowes are said to be spending an absolute ton of money on schools rugby and they are getting the results. So I would say yes.

thebaz

matthew8 wrote: »

Clongowes are said to be spending an absolute ton of money on schools rugby and they are getting the results. So I would say yes.

again I'd be surprised, think a lot of schools are struggling to just keep numbers up, with parents who can actually afford full fees - Clongowes may have had the money during Celtic Tiger years , not so sure now - they also had some excellent jesuit coaches, whom i sure cost little

John_C

I don't know if it's changed much since my day (about 15 years ago) but, back then, the coaches were all either teachers or 18/19 year old kiwi 'exchange students' and the school gym had a decent set of weights but nothing fancy.
The first team trained a lot but there didn't seem to be anything expensive about it.

jm08

John_C wrote: »

I don't know if it's changed much since my day (about 15 years ago) but, back then, the coaches were all either teachers or 18/19 year old kiwi 'exchange students' and the school gym had a decent set of weights but nothing fancy.
The first team trained a lot but there didn't seem to be anything expensive about it.

Noel mcnamara is a maths/pe teacher in clongowes. he coaches the Leinster u-19s backs as well.

think bernard jackman helps out with the coaching in michaels.

RMD

I know my own school (Belvo) didn't seem to have t0o big of a budget. They had 1 part-time professional coach (Gabriel Fulcher), other than that the rest of the coaching staff were all teachers within the school. Facilities were good but not extensive, very good quality weights room, small astro pitch on roof (only useful for passing drills / line out practise), a flood lit pitch 10 minutes away (Seniors pitch) and then quite a few pitches further away in Cabra.

AFAIK Clongowes are the school investing huge money right. Full size Astro pitch (funding donated by alumni), new sporting centre created focusing on Rugby and some very nice pitches right on their door step. Blackrock have also always had a fairly nice budget to play with too.

themont85

Big spenders: Michaels, Clongowes, St Gerards

Even saying that the former two there would be coached mainly by teachers and past pupils. Though Michaels have guys like Brian O'Meara and Kelvin Leahy in the school teaching. Both are ex Internationals...

Facilities obviously play a role.

It comes down really to how well your programme is run. A good Director of Rugby ensures good standards of coaching all the way down to C and D teams in first year. That's the success of Michaels anyway.

Gonzaga wouldn't spend big money on rugby at all.

themont85

RMD wrote: »

I know my own school (Belvo) didn't seem to have t0o big of a budget. They had 1 part-time professional coach (Gabriel Fulcher), other than that the rest of the coaching staff were all teachers within the school. Facilities were good but not extensive, very good quality weights room, small astro pitch on roof (only useful for passing drills / line out practise), a flood lit pitch 10 minutes away (Seniors pitch) and then quite a few pitches further away in Cabra.

AFAIK Clongowes are the school investing huge money right. Full size Astro pitch (funding donated by alumni), new sporting centre created focusing on Rugby and some very nice pitches right on their door step. Blackrock have also always had a fairly nice budget to play with too.

Tbf you have Tony O'Reilly who has never shied away from dropping a bit of money on the school.

roro1neil0

what do you mean spending?

like michael's could have easily spend a million euro on a new pitch and club house but i don't think they did.

the difference between the schools has always been the quality of coaching and the calibre of the student body.

10 years ago belvedere brought in a full time director of rugby who coached the senior cup team and brought in development plans for the first years up. he was employed for 2/3 years. since and before then, it was always a rota of different teachers taking on the mantle.

i'd be surprised if the schools differed much in their budgets for stuff like cones and tackle bags

themont85

roro1neil0 wrote: »

what do you mean spending?

like michael's could have easily spend a million euro on a new pitch and club house but i don't think they did.

the difference between the schools has always been the quality of coaching and the calibre of the student body.

10 years ago belvedere brought in a full time director of rugby who coached the senior cup team and brought in development plans for the first years up. he was employed for 2/3 years. since and before then, it was always a rota of different teachers taking on the mantle.

i'd be surprised if the schools differed much in their budgets for stuff like cones and tackle bags

They certainly did spend money of their facilities. That gym ect.

The DoR there is the big thing in terms of the year to year thing. Same as Belvedere as you mentioned.

Not sure what you mean about the second bit.

RMD

themont85 wrote: »

Tbf you have Tony O'Reilly who has never shied away from dropping a bit of money on the school.

True, but his contribution went to the O'Reilly theatre which has no relevance to Rugby. The pitch on the roof is handy but it's a sand based Astro so it's only useful for passing drills / line outs, basically the same stuff they can do in a hall. Any form of contact / tackling drills and you'll end up leaving the pitch minus a layer of skin or 2. All normal training is done down in Distillery about 10 minutes away.

The big donations right now seem to be going to Clongowes, full size astro pitch that is actually good play on. Most private schools though do generally have a few wealthy alumni who donate occasionally.

themont85

RMD wrote: »

True, but his contribution went to the O'Reilly theatre which has no relevance to Rugby. The pitch on the roof is handy but it's a sand based Astro so it's only useful for passing drills / line outs, basically the same stuff they can do in a hall. Any form of contact / tackling drills and you'll end up leaving the pitch minus a layer of skin or 2. All normal training is done down in Distillery about 10 minutes away.

The big donations right now seem to be going to Clongowes, full size astro pitch that is actually good play on. Most private schools though do generally have a few wealthy alumni who donate occasionally.

Negating the need for you to have to spend money that is spent on sports on a concert hall/theatre ect.

Plus the Irish Independent was emblazzed on Belvo jerseys for years. Don't tell me that TOR had nothing to do with it.;)

themont85

Clongowes have a continuing policy of fundraising as do most Jesuit schools. They currently have a towards 200 years of Clongowes drive which is paying for their new sports facilities. Fr Dermot Murray is known for going around the Jesuits schools and raising money.

A lot is wealthy donors but it's also concerted efforts at all round fundraising.

Hottowel

Well if michaels are investing all those millions in coaching I'd suggest they ain't getting a good deal.

Anyone watch the Kilkenny match? Michaels lost many of their own lineouts got pushed off at scrum time and I'd say they were at least 2-3 stone heavier per man. They ended up winning the cup because they're individuals were far better than clongowes but clongowes were a far more cohesive unit better drilled. At line out time there was no movement in the michaels line out to be honest they looked like the baa baas. A fantastic team of individuals who met up the night before.

rugbyman2015

If money was being pumped into a school, what would you spend it on if you wanted success for your JCT and SCT teams in the cup?

For me it would be the weights room, changing rooms, pitch management, astro turf etc... (Exclude regular budget equipment like balls and markers. We can take that for granted in this case).

eyescreamcone

I heard recently that one school was paying teacher/coaches 15-30k euro per year on top of their salaries, and that there was a lot of politics among the teachers vying for these plum positions

errlloyd

I know my old school (Andrews) had a dedicated South African coach, who was also employed as a general kinda "around the school hallway monitor-esque guy" and a specific weights room.

Two pretty nice rugby pitches as well as two full sized astro hockey pitches the rugby team could sometimes (though rarely did) use for drills.

But I do remember that before he coached in Gerards Tony Ward coached in Andrews and I believe he left because Andrews wouldn't keep him on when he stopped teaching.

Its possible part of the reason he coached Gerards was because at the time his daughter was going there? It gives him at least a small connection.

SpandexBalls

Hottowel wrote: »

Well if michaels are investing all those millions in coaching I'd suggest they ain't getting a good deal.

Anyone watch the Kilkenny match? Michaels lost many of their own lineouts got pushed off at scrum time and I'd say they were at least 2-3 stone heavier per man. They ended up winning the cup because they're individuals were far better than clongowes but clongowes were a far more cohesive unit better drilled. At line out time there was no movement in the michaels line out to be honest they looked like the baa baas. A fantastic team of individuals who met up the night before.

Firstly, they're not investing millions in coaching. They built new facilities as part of the rebuild of the dilapidated secondary school that did cost millions overall but it wasn't coaching.

Secondly, since 2006 they've been in 4 senior finals and 6 junior finals. And they were easily the better coached side in the final, which they won. I think they're doing alright.

Hottowel

SpandexBalls wrote: »

Firstly, they're not investing millions in coaching. They built new facilities as part of the rebuild of the dilapidated secondary school that did cost millions overall but it wasn't coaching.

Secondly, since 2006 they've been in 4 senior finals and 6 junior finals. And they were easily the better coached side in the final, which they won. I think they're doing alright.

Hey don't get me wrong I think Michaels are doing very well. They are a small school that considering player numbers are punching above their weight. You say they've been in 4 senior finals with that coaching ticket?

I'm pretty sure Greg McWilliams was the head coach, who is a past pupil and teacher in the school was responsible for most of those Senior cup Finals. No doubt the JCT coach is doing a great job. I think you'll find their current coaching ticket which lists about 5 different coaches is what I'm refering to.

To say they were the best coached team in the final? Come on. They were by far the better team but like I said they were getting killed in the scrums. Lost lineouts to a small Kilkenny outfit (they did ok against Clongowes). They are a really talented team and I think you'll find a lot of those players will do really well in the professional world. All I'm saying is to me it looks like they spent a good bit of money on coaching and it didn't seem to show on the pitch.

MrDerp

There's also probably hidden expenditure on player scholarships. I went to a private rugby-playing school in Cork and during my time there in the 90s there was at least 15 players on a scholarship throughout the ranks. Many of these made Irish schools and U19, a few are household names, so there was real talent being picked up from clubs. If they've even 10 scholarships today, they're forgoing about 30K in fees.

I'm not sure scholarships are as rampant in Leinster. In Cork there is 2 rugby playing schools and several excellent underage clubs so this is set up well for harvesting players. I played underage for a club in Cork (A level school's rugby was well outside my ability) and when I was in 5th year there were 6 individuals I knew from my club playing for the school with scholarships.

bamboozle

Back when i was in school Michael's poached/gave scholarships to Aidan Kearney and Cormac Dowling, Bernard Jackman is coach of their SCT and he isnt doing it for the love of the game.

dougieruggie

Hottowel wrote: »

Hey don't get me wrong I think Michaels are doing very well. They are a small school that considering player numbers are punching above their weight.

I wouldn't exactly call Michaels a small school punching above their weight. They have over 100 pupils in every year. If you want to see a small school punching vastly above their weight then look no further than St.Marys, only 70 pupils in a year and by all accounts has a string budget for rugby. Thats less than even Gonzaga (which has 90+ if I'm not mistaken)

SpandexBalls

Hottowel wrote: »

Hey don't get me wrong I think Michaels are doing very well. They are a small school that considering player numbers are punching above their weight. You say they've been in 4 senior finals with that coaching ticket?

I'm pretty sure Greg McWilliams was the head coach, who is a past pupil and teacher in the school was responsible for most of those Senior cup Finals. No doubt the JCT coach is doing a great job. I think you'll find their current coaching ticket which lists about 5 different coaches is what I'm refering to.

To say they were the best coached team in the final? Come on. They were by far the better team but like I said they were getting killed in the scrums. Lost lineouts to a small Kilkenny outfit (they did ok against Clongowes). They are a really talented team and I think you'll find a lot of those players will do really well in the professional world. All I'm saying is to me it looks like they spent a good bit of money on coaching and it didn't seem to show on the pitch.

Your original point was based on the assumption that they were spending "millions" on coaching and that they're not getting value for money. I countered that by saying they're not spending millions and they've reached 4 senior finals and 6 junior finals in 7 seasons - indicative of good coaching overall, regardless of poor performances this year in the S.

I agree they underperformed in set pieces against Kilkenny. They didn't otherwise - Clongowes front row is renowned. Breakdown, tactics and overall play was otherwise good to excellent and outstanding in the final.

Re coaches, J's coach is the same for all six finals. Re S coach - 2006: Coakley (teacher), 2007: McWilliams (teacher), 2010 & 12 was Leahy (McWilliams may have been 2010).

dougieruggie wrote: »

I wouldn't exactly call Michaels a small school punching above their weight. They have over 100 pupils in every year.

No they most certainly do not. Average is about 75 a year.

its_phil

dougieruggie wrote: »

If you want to see a small school punching vastly above their weight then look no further than St.Marys, only 70 pupils in a year and by all accounts has a string budget for rugby.

You think that's small?

Roscrea has just over 200 in the entire school. 70 pupils a year is more than enough to be create a competitive rugby team. Mary's gym is also state of the art.

SpandexBalls

its_phil wrote: »

You think that's small?

Roscrea has just over 200 in the entire school. 70 pupils a year is more than enough to be create a competitive rugby team. Mary's gym is also state of the art.

I don't think Mary's has nearly that many. Past pupils I know reckon it's closer to 50 a year - small for the big 6 but yes considerably bigger than Roscrea (or Gerard's).

dougieruggie

its_phil wrote: »

You think that's small?

Roscrea has just over 200 in the entire school. 70 pupils a year is more than enough to be create a competitive rugby team. Mary's gym is also state of the art.

I was in the St.Mary's school gym only last year, its a rust bucket that severly lacks in equipment and is in a tiny enclosed space. I think you're confusing the school gym with the club gym which is state of the art.

Anyway, last time I checked Roscrea don't punch above their weight. Have they started getting to the latter stages of the senior cup? I must admit its been awhile since ive watched schools rugby.

dougieruggie

SpandexBalls wrote: »

I don't think Mary's has nearly that many. Past pupils I know reckon it's closer to 50 a year - small for the big 6 but yes considerably bigger than Roscrea (or Gerard's).

Sorry 70 per year was an estimate, it could well be smaller

its_phil

dougieruggie wrote: »

I was in the St.Mary's school gym only last year, its a rust bucket that severly lacks in equipment and is in a tiny enclosed space. I think you're confusing the school gym with the club gym which is state of the art.

Anyway, last time I checked Roscrea don't punch above their weight. Have they started getting to the latter stages of the senior cup? I must admit its been awhile since ive watched schools rugby.

Mary's SCT were using the club gym two seasons ago, so I can only presume they are still there.

Senior Cup final last year and a disputable draw with St. Michael this year. Junior semi vs Clongowes in 2008 too. Junior team also won the league over Newbridge (beat in the semi's and lost in the first round to) who are in the junior final this year. The school is doing very well considering it's ever dwindling numbers and still a rugby/hurling school.

dougieruggie

its_phil wrote: »

Mary's SCT were using the club gym two seasons ago, so I can only presume they are still there.

Senior Cup final last year and a disputable draw with St. Michael this year. Junior semi vs Clongowes in 2008 too. Junior team also won the league over Newbridge (beat in the semi's and lost in the first round to) who are in the junior final this year. The school is doing very well considering it's ever dwindling numbers and still a rugby/hurling school.

Probably a once off. The Marys SCT train in the school gym and walk to the Kenilworth pitches after for rugby. I was teaching courses in the basketball hall last year at the school and thats what happened. I honestly couldn't see them going all the way to Templelogue to go to the gym then back to Rathmines for training.

Thats incredible by Roscrea, what an achievment!

themont85

SpandexBalls wrote: »

I don't think Mary's has nearly that many. Past pupils I know reckon it's closer to 50 a year - small for the big 6 but yes considerably bigger than Roscrea (or Gerard's).

Mary's have between 70-75 pupils per year.

themont85

SpandexBalls wrote: »

Your original point was based on the assumption that they were spending "millions" on coaching and that they're not getting value for money. I countered that by saying they're not spending millions and they've reached 4 senior finals and 6 junior finals in 7 seasons - indicative of good coaching overall, regardless of poor performances this year in the S.

I agree they underperformed in set pieces against Kilkenny. They didn't otherwise - Clongowes front row is renowned. Breakdown, tactics and overall play was otherwise good to excellent and outstanding in the final.

Re coaches, J's coach is the same for all six finals. Re S coach - 2006: Coakley (teacher), 2007: McWilliams (teacher), 2010 & 12 was Leahy (McWilliams may have been 2010).



No they most certainly do not. Average is about 75 a year.

It's more than that.

Hottowel

Spandex balls- I could be wrong but I can't see where I said they were spending millions on coaching. I don't think we are actually disagreeing on that much, I think the previous coaching regime with coakley and after that McWilliams was very good. I just felt this year they got the coaching ticket wrong I'm not saying jackman was bad, but maybe there was too many voices. I don't think they were as well drilled as 2007 side or the teams since with Cathal marsh at fly half
their talent pulled them through, interestingly clongowes only had one coach listed on the programme michaels had a few I think 4

As far as I know they have 3 classes per year. With around 25 in a class so it is a small school. Don't rock and belvedere have double that number?

themont85

Hottowel wrote: »

Spandex balls- I could be wrong but I can't see where I said they were spending millions on coaching. I don't think we are actually disagreeing on that much, I think the previous coaching regime with coakley and after that McWilliams was very good. I just felt this year they got the coaching ticket wrong I'm not saying jackman was bad, but maybe there was too many voices. I don't think they were as well drilled as 2007 side or the teams since with Cathal marsh at fly half
their talent pulled them through, interestingly clongowes only had one coach listed on the programme michaels had a few I think 4

As far as I know they have 3 classes per year. With around 25 in a class so it is a small school. Don't rock and belvedere have double that number?

Michaels 10/11 enrolment was 603 students. That's closer to 100 pupils on average.

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/st-michaels-college-rollnumber-60561G

Gordon Gecko

themont85 wrote: »

Negating the need for you to have to spend money that is spent on sports on a concert hall/theatre ect.

Plus the Irish Independent was emblazzed on Belvo jerseys for years. Don't tell me that TOR had nothing to do with it.;)

Tony O' Reilly does not fund Belvedere rugby. Gabriel Fulcher is employed as part time senior coach (he has other coaching commitments too) the rest is all teachers and past pupils. The school owns it's pitches (and has done for a long time) the facilities at both are anything but extraordinary. Hence the vast sums you imagine are being spent on rugby are in fact fictional.

By the way, the school has NEVER had "Irish Independent" emblazoned on its jerseys. Old Belvedere RFC a club that some students join after leaving the school have been sponsored by it. Get your facts right mate.

themont85

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Tony O' Reilly does not fund Belvedere rugby. Gabriel Fulcher is employed as part time senior coach (he has other coaching commitments too) the rest is all teachers and past pupils. The school owns it's pitches (and has done for a long time) the facilities at both are anything but extraordinary. Hence the vast sums you imagine are being spent on rugby are in fact fictional.

By the way, the school has NEVER had "Irish Independent" emblazoned on its jerseys. Old Belvedere RFC a club that some students join after leaving the school have been sponsored by it. Get your facts right mate.

Oh yes they have. I played many years against Belvedere well over 10 years ago with Independent on jerseys and tracksuits. On Cup jerseys, no, but sponsors aren't allowed for that at all. What age are you?

My general point is that he has given a lot of money to the school. If that comes in the form of a theatre then this also helps rugby as it allows resources to be funnelled into that which would be given to the school itself financing a theatre. This has also come in other forms.

SpandexBalls

themont85 wrote: »

It's more than that.

Well that's what it was for my three brothers (one of whom left last year) and me.

Fair enough re Mary's, I was always told it was smaller than that

SpandexBalls

themont85 wrote: »

Michaels 10/11 enrolment was 603 students. That's closer to 100 pupils on average.

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/st-michaels-college-rollnumber-60561G

That includes the junior school as far as I know.

SpandexBalls

Hottowel wrote: »

Spandex balls- I could be wrong but I can't see where I said they were spending millions on coaching. I don't think we are actually disagreeing on that much, I think the previous coaching regime with coakley and after that McWilliams was very good. I just felt this year they got the coaching ticket wrong I'm not saying jackman was bad, but maybe there was too many voices. I don't think they were as well drilled as 2007 side or the teams since with Cathal marsh at fly half
their talent pulled them through, interestingly clongowes only had one coach listed on the programme michaels had a few I think 4

As far as I know they have 3 classes per year. With around 25 in a class so it is a small school. Don't rock and belvedere have double that number?

Fair enough, I must have misinterpreted. Apologies.

You might have a point with you analysis, particularly re scrum which I thought was poor given the size of the props (including the sub). But otherwise I thought the coaching was very good.

milosh

Rugby at the top level of schools is an expensive game. The most successful schools over the past number of years are those who spend big. That is a given. How many coaches were on the sideline on Sunday from each school. People assume that because some of the coaches are teachers that they are not getting paid - They are in these schools as are your Jackmans and Millers etc

That by itself creates an imbalance. If you a retired or current rugby player who is a teacher and have a choice of working in a private school where you can earn extra for every minute you work beyond 4pm or in a school where what you do is voluntary, which would you choose?

I had a look at the coaching line ups from the Independent's schools supplement. I compared the two school's who I thought would have the biggest and smallest budgets in the competition (St Michaels and Pres Bray) - one had seven coaches listed and the other had two. Assuming this trend continues, then the like of Pres Bray - once a powerhouse in the schools game will go the way of the other non- fee paying schools - De La Salle, St Pauls and Templeogue, back to section A.

Most worryingly is that this will have a serious long term impact on the Irish game. I just looked at the Irish Schools Under 18s schools squad. Fair play to St Michaels- they have 5 selected. Herein lies the problem. How is it possible for 5 of the best players in one country to all be in the same school if that school only has 100 students in each year. It would not happen in any other country. The rugby gene pool is getting smaller and smaller and I believe it is because the budgets of some schools get bigger and bigger.

To better Leinster rugby, fee paying schools should get zero from the branch. They generate enough money themselves. This money should then be used to help non fee paying schools compete - in particular schools in big urban centres such as Navan, Drogheda, Gorey, Naas and Bray.

ormond lad

milosh wrote: »

Rugby at the top level of schools is an expensive game. The most successful schools over the past number of years are those who spend big. That is a given. How many coaches were on the sideline on Sunday from each school. People assume that because some of the coaches are teachers that they are not getting paid - They are in these schools as are your Jackmans and Millers etc

That by itself creates an imbalance. If you a retired or current rugby player who is a teacher and have a choice of working in a private school where you can earn extra for every minute you work beyond 4pm or in a school where what you do is voluntary, which would you choose?

I had a look at the coaching line ups from the Independent's schools supplement. I compared the two school's who I thought would have the biggest and smallest budgets in the competition (St Michaels and Pres Bray) - one had seven coaches listed and the other had two. Assuming this trend continues, then the like of Pres Bray - once a powerhouse in the schools game will go the way of the other non- fee paying schools - De La Salle, St Pauls and Templeogue, back to section A.

Most worryingly is that this will have a serious long term impact on the Irish game. I just looked at the Irish Schools Under 18s schools squad. Fair play to St Michaels- they have 5 selected. Herein lies the problem. How is it possible for 5 of the best players in one country to all be in the same school if that school only has 100 students in each year. It would not happen in any other country. The rugby gene pool is getting smaller and smaller and I believe it is because the budgets of some schools get bigger and bigger.

To better Leinster rugby, fee paying schools should get zero from the branch. They generate enough money themselves. This money should then be used to help non fee paying schools compete - in particular schools in big urban centres such as Navan, Drogheda, Gorey, Naas and Bray.

This money should go to the clubs in the places like Gorey, Naas, Navan to improve the work being done in these clubs where there is strong youths set ups. Imagine if the kind of money the branch gave to blackrock college this year was given to Gorey this season. Gorey who reached the all ireland final at 17s last season and have reached that stage at 19s this season could do so much with a tiny bit more help. And this goes for clubs throughout the country