What happened in Kandahar?

Brown Bomber

Crazed lone-gunman or organised massacre?

Up to 20 US troops executed Panjwai massacre: probe
by Bashir Ahmad NaadimonMar 15, 2012 - 21:33

KANDAHAR CITY (PAN): A parliamentary probe team on Thursday said up to 20 American troops were involved in Sunday’s killing of 16 civilians in southern Kandahar province.

The probing delegation includes lawmakers Hamidzai Lali, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, Shakiba Hashimi, Syed Mohammad Akhund and Bismillah Afghanmal, all representing Kandahar province at the Wolesi Jirga and Abdul Latif Padram, a lawmaker from northern Badakhshan province, Mirbat Mangal, Khost province, Muhammad Sarwar Usmani, Farah province.

The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.

Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.

“We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said.

He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

“The villages are one and a half kilometre from the American military base. We are convinced that one soldier cannot kill so many people in two villages within one hour at the same time, and the 16 civilians, most of them children and women, have been killed by the two groups.”

Lali asked the Afghan government, the United Nations and the international community to ensure the perpetrators were punished in Afghanistan.

He expressed his anger that the US soldier, the prime suspect in the shooting, had been flown out of Afghanistan to Kuwait.

He said the people they met had warned if the responsible troops were not punished, they would launch a movement against Afghans who had agreed to foreign troops’ presence in Afghanistan under the first Bonn conference in 2001.

The lawmaker said the Wolesi Jirga would not sit silent until the killers were prosecuted in Afghanistan. "If the international community does not play its role in punishing the perpetrators, the Wolesi Jirga would declare foreign troops as occupying forces, like the Russians," Lali warned.

President Hamid Karzai on Thursday asked the US to pull out all its troops from Afghan villages in response to the killings.
http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/03/15/20-us-troops-executed-panjwai-massacre-probe

enno99

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Crazed lone-gunman or organised massacre?

I read somewhere he done 3 tours in Iraq

If this story is anything to go by the organised bit dont seem far fetched

WARNING: Graphic and disturbing photos between 38:40 and 40:45.
U.S. Army Ranger John Needham, who was awarded two purple hearts and three medals for heroism, wrote to military authorities in 2007 reporting war crimes that he witnessed being committed by his own command and fellow soldiers in Al Doura, Iraq. His charges were supported by atrocity photos which, in the public interest, are now released in this video. John paid a terrible price for his opposition to these acts. His story is tragic

http://vimeo.com/33755968

(Can the video be put in like utube)

jackiebaron

Of course this was an "isolated" incident just like the Haditha Massacres and Abu Ghraib, and Bagram, and the burning of Korans, and the pissing on Korans in Guantanamo, and the pissing on corpses, and the slaughter from the air of civilians, cameramen and kids in Baghdad, and the Fallujah Massacre, and the drone attacks on shepherd boys, and all the other stomach churning attrocities that occur daily. They're all isolated incidents and do not reflect on the pristine reputation of the US forces.

http://rt.com/news/massacre-kandahar-soldier-american-705/

RMD

jackiebaron wrote: »

Of course this was an "isolated" incident just like the Haditha Massacres and Abu Ghraib, and Bagram, and the burning of Korans, and the pissing on Korans in Guantanamo, and the pissing on corpses, and the slaughter from the air of civilians, cameramen and kids in Baghdad, and the Fallujah Massacre, and the drone attacks on shepherd boys, and all the other stomach churning attrocities that occur daily. They're all isolated incidents and do not reflect on the pristine reputation of the US forces.

http://rt.com/news/massacre-kandahar-soldier-american-705/

Put hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a warzone where they face guerilla warfare combined with insufficient psychological support and you'll get these events regardless of what armed force it is.

I wouldn't label an entire force due to a small amount of scumbags.

cml387

The problem is from what I've read he wasn't a scumbag and in fact on previous missions had gone out of his way to prevent civilian casualties.

Most soldiers in Afghanistan must wonder wtf they're doing there.

jackiebaron

RMD wrote: »

Put hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a warzone where they face guerilla warfare combined with insufficient psychological support and you'll get these events regardless of what armed force it is.

I wouldn't label an entire force due to a small amount of scumbags.

GRAVEYARD OF EMPIRES

jackiebaron

RMD wrote: »

Put hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a warzone where they face guerilla warfare combined with insufficient psychological support and you'll get these events regardless of what armed force it is.

I wouldn't label an entire force due to a small amount of scumbags.

And how would you label this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/09/us-military-marines-nazi-ss-flag-photo

or this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=744_1229471245

And the 20 bastards who slaughtered 9 children in Kandahar? Heroes? Amazing that we don't hear any tales of a lone American soldier killing 16 well armed attackers and defending his unit. We only hear of thugs butchering women and kids in a drunken rage...and your excuse...."they're under pressure".

If a man back in the states touched a 5-year old's leg you'd call for him to be hanged....or dumped into a jail cell forever where he would be beaten and tortured. Yet when a soldier murders 9 kids and 7 parents and wounds 45 others ......well no death penalty for him, eh? He was under fücking stress, right.

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=355_1331458717


But, I'll tell you what, RMD....297 "American "HEROES" "have been dumped into a landfill in Virginia, it's ****ing LAUGHABLE!

So forget about all the wars and all the crap.....why don't you demand that all those bodies..and body parts be retrieved and given a proper burial.

Guarantee you, if you petition your government to bury these dead saps and their body parts, you would be beaten....and beaten to death.

kryogen

That pic with the SS flag definitely needs to be properly explained, the potential implications of it are disgraceful.

Jeboa Safari

jackiebaron wrote: »

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed.

Says a lot about you and the type of person you are. I think we can disregard your false outrage about atrocities as something you just see as a stick to beat the US with.

Jonny7

This is crazy stuff.

Brown Bomber

Jackie
I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. .

...

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Says a lot about you and the type of person you are. I think we can disregard your false outrage about atrocities as something you just see as a stick to beat the US with.

Jeboa,
If your going to make personal attacks against people based on their statements you should not quote them out of context.

This was his statement:

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed.After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

Can you see the difference?

enno99

Jonny7 wrote: »

This is crazy stuff.

What do you find crazy jonny7 that fact that one or more US troops murdered women and children and set fire to their bodies
Or that some people try to defend them with with all kinds of excuses

al28283

Brown Bomber wrote: »

...


Jeboa,
If your going to make personal attacks against people based on their statements you should not quote them out of context.



Can you see the difference?

Not really, he's still a scumbag for wishing death on anyone associated with these minority of soldiers who go off the rails

Brown Bomber

al28283 wrote: »

Not really, he's still a scumbag for wishing death on anyone associated with these minority of soldiers who go off the rails

By your logic Obama and his administration are far greater scumbags for not simply wishing death but actually killing US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki (and his 16 year old son) without indictment and due process for "association" with the Forth Hood massacre and the underwear bomber.

al28283

Brown Bomber wrote: »

By your logic Obama and his administration are far greater scumbags for not simply wishing death but actually killing US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki (and his 16 year old son) without indictment and due process for "association" with the Forth Hood massacre and the underwear bomber.

And by your logic, you equate someone sitting at home behind a keyboard wishing death on somebody and the president of the united states who is somewhat more involved in the situation.

I didn't state my thoughts on Obama and his administration so why bring it up?

Jonny7

enno99 wrote: »

What do you find crazy jonny7

even for Jackie, that's very extreme

humanji

al28283 infracted for personal abuse. JackieBaron, ease up on the hyperbole and calm down.

clever_name

jackiebaron wrote: »

And how would you label this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/09/us-military-marines-nazi-ss-flag-photo

or this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=744_1229471245

And the 20 bastards who slaughtered 9 children in Kandahar? Heroes? Amazing that we don't hear any tales of a lone American soldier killing 16 well armed attackers and defending his unit. We only hear of thugs butchering women and kids in a drunken rage...and your excuse...."they're under pressure".

If a man back in the states touched a 5-year old's leg you'd call for him to be hanged....or dumped into a jail cell forever where he would be beaten and tortured. Yet when a soldier murders 9 kids and 7 parents and wounds 45 others ......well no death penalty for him, eh? He was under fücking stress, right.

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=355_1331458717


But, I'll tell you what, RMD....297 "American "HEROES" "have been dumped into a landfill in Virginia, it's ****ing LAUGHABLE!

So forget about all the wars and all the crap.....why don't you demand that all those bodies..and body parts be retrieved and given a proper burial.

Guarantee you, if you petition your government to bury these dead saps and their body parts, you would be beaten....and beaten to death.

Is it just American troops deaths you worship? for example do you have a deathwish for Danish troops aswell?

I'm not sure if you made a few mistakes in this post, it does look like you got a bit carried away, so I dont understand some of it, what has the milk man got to do with anything and do you really think the irish government would beat someone to death for asking about US soldiers?

jackiebaron

al28283 wrote: »

And by your logic, you equate someone sitting at home behind a keyboard wishing death on somebody and the president of the united states who is somewhat more involved in the situation.

I didn't state my thoughts on Obama and his administration so why bring it up?

How is me wishing death upon heavily armed occupation troops who bully and abuse and murder defenseless peasants any more barbaric than you trying to justify their coldblooded murders. I'm sick to my stomach of hearing this "few bad apples" bullsh!t. Nightly up to 25 civilians are murdered in cold blood:

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=95421&Cat=9

and STILL you bleat on about how the vast majority are "real stand-up guys". Change the fcuking record, why don't you. These soldiers are savages, plain and simple.

humanji

It's no different than me wishing you dead because being Irish (I'm assuming you are, if not pretend you are for the sake of this example) you are associated with the IRA and therefore guilty of their crimes. After all, it can't be just a few bad apples amongst the Irish people who are guilty.

You are claiming ALL soldiers over there are guilty of war crimes. We know you can't back it up because it's simply not true.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

It's no different than me wishing you dead because being Irish (I'm assuming you are, if not pretend you are for the sake of this example) you are associated with the IRA and therefore guilty of their crimes. After all, it can't be just a few bad apples amongst the Irish people who are guilty.

You are claiming ALL soldiers over there are guilty of war crimes. We know you can't back it up because it's simply not true.

All soldiers over there ARE guilty of war crimes. Since the war is illegal then all soldiers are complicit. You'll find that in the Nuremberg Charter AND the Uniform Code of Military Justice. How's that for "backing it up"?

And your Irish people / IRA analogy is pretty pathetic. I don't wish death upon Madonna or Samuel L Jackson or my ex-girlfriend or any other American civilian. They are not responsible for atrocities in Afghanistan any more than Irish civilians are responsible for IRA bombings.

humanji

jackiebaron wrote: »

All soldiers over there ARE guilty of war crimes. Since the war is illegal then all soldiers are complicit. You'll find that in the Nuremberg Charter AND the Uniform Code of Military Justice. How's that for "backing it up"?

And your Irish people / IRA analogy is pretty pathetic. I don't wish death upon Madonna or Samuel L Jackson or my ex-girlfriend or any other American civilian. They are not responsible for atrocities in Afghanistan any more than Irish civilians are responsible for IRA bombings.

Firstly, the legality of the war is highly disputed and can be proven either way.

Secondly, assuming that the war is illegal, then no actual war is happening and therefore no war crimes can be commited. What you would be complainnig about are crimes against humanity.

Thirdly, to be guilty of a crime against humanity or a war crime (which is covered by the former) you actually have to commit a crime against humanity. A medic who has never fired a gun at anything other than a practice target and spends their tour of Afghanistan in a hospital treating sick children is not commiting a war crime. But by your logic they deserve to die for some reason.

And my IRA analogy is actually rather accurate. You've decided that a large group of people are guilty by association and decided that the sentence is death. Ironically enough, it's the same mentallity that a deranged soldier in Afghanistan would have as they go off to shoot civilians.

Jeboa Safari

Brown Bomber wrote: »

...


Jeboa,
If your going to make personal attacks against people based on their statements you should not quote them out of context.

This was his statement:

Can you see the difference?

Yes, that makes all the difference :rolleyes:

I'm sure if I wrote something like "I worship the day when Muslims are bombed and killed. After what I've seen them do in the name of Islam, it's revolting" you'd be all over it in hysterics, outrage meter to the full, full sentence quoted or not

Brown Bomber

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Yes, that makes all the difference :rolleyes:

It does actually.

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

I'm sure if I wrote something like "I worship the day when Muslims are bombed and killed. After what I've seen them do in the name of Islam, it's revolting" you'd be all over it in hysterics, outrage meter to the full, full sentence quoted or not

That doesn't make any sense.

Jeboa Safari

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It does actually.

Its a ridiculous statement, even with his attempts to justify it. And his full post was just above mine, Mr Context, and linked to.

That doesn't make any sense.

Makes sense to me anyway

Brown Bomber

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Its a ridiculous statement, even with his attempts to justify it. And his full post was just above mine, Mr Context, and linked to.

If it was so ridiculous then you should have been able to quote him in context and still made the same point. It's a question of integrity. Consider these two hypothethical statements:

1- I hope my neighbour get's killed.
2 - I hope my neighbour get's killed after he mollested my daughter.

2 is considerably more reasonable than 1, though it is a matter of perspective whether either is justifiable or moral a position to hold. It is clear without taking the quote out of context that the wish of death only came about as a result of the the fact. It is a reaction.

Now consider Jackies statement vs what you've quoted:

1.You:
"I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed."

2.Jackie:
"I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do."

(again and equally)

2 is considerably more reasonable than 1, though it is a matter of perspective whether either is justifiable or moral a position to hold. It is clear without taking the quote out of context that the wish of death only came about as a result of the the fact. It is a reaction.

Ultimately it is a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell Jackie is affected by the raping and murdering of defenseless people via a military occupation. It's empathy, a normal and healthy human emotion. I believe he is further riled, and is knowledgeable enough to know that a cover-up is more likely than justice in these cases - such as the My Lai Massacre, where a team of US soliders murdered hundreds of innocent and defenseless Vietnames civilians including women and children. Only one person was ever punished, and that was only house arrest for a couple of years before receiveing a Presidential pardon.

As for my own opinion on the rank-and-file military I very much agree with Thoreau in Civil Disobedience:

[SIZE=+1] A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys, and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy-Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black arts- a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with funeral accompaniments, though it may be...
[/SIZE]
...The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs.

Jeboa Safari

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If it was so ridiculous then you should have been able to quote him in context and still made the same point. It's a question of integrity. Consider these two hypothethical statements:


2 is considerably more reasonable than 1, though it is a matter of perspective whether either is justifiable or moral a position to hold. It is clear without taking the quote out of context that the wish of death only came about as a result of the the fact. It is a reaction.

His pathetic attempt to justify it is irrelevent. Just as if I posted something along the lines of 'worshiping the day Muslims get bombed and killed' would be dismissed as ignorant at the very least, even if I tried to justify it by saying 'after what I've seen them do in the name of Islam.
And even then, regarding context, his post was two posts above mine, and linked to.

Ultimately it is a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell Jackie is affected by the raping and murdering of defenseless people via a military occupation. It's empathy, a normal and healthy human emotion. I believe he is further riled, and is knowledgeable enough to know that a cover-up is more likely than justice in these cases - such as the My Lai Massacre, where a team of US soliders murdered hundreds of innocent and defenseless Vietnames civilians including women and children. Only one person was ever punished, and that was only house arrest for a couple of years before receiveing a Presidential pardon.

Its amazing that he only seems to be affected when the perpetrators are American, and he can use it as a way to bash the US

humanji

Brown Bomber wrote: »

1- I hope my neighbour get's killed.
2 - I hope my neighbour get's killed after he mollested my daughter.

Actually, it's a case of:

3- I hope my neighbour gets killed because a member of their extended family mollested somebody and therefore my neighbour is also guilty.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

Actually, it's a case of:

3- I hope my neighbour gets killed because a member of their extended family mollested somebody and therefore my neighbour is also guilty.

Humanji, if you want to spend your life giving American soldiers and their paymasters the benefit of the doubt then that's your prerogative. It seems the brainwashing has had an effect even on potentially free-thinking individuals such as yourself. No matter what acts of sheer brutality the American occupation forces engage in you will try to excuse the rest of them speaking about isolated incidents and bad apples and stress and PTSD and all that crap. Well somehow I feel we've been here before from the countless bombings of wedding parties, funeral processions, agricultural workers (shepherds, wood gatherers, etc.), to slaughters in Haditha, Fallujah, etc., to the rape of teenage girls, to the nightly murders in household raids, to massacring civilians and camera crews from helicopters and then even opening fire on the children (incidentally one of the soldiers who arrived at the scene of that carnage said that this was a DAILY OCCURENCE..including the driving over bodies with tanks crushing them to mincemeat) of those who come to assist the wounded and then gloat about it, to the use of banned weapons such as white phosphorous and napalm on civilians to torture and depraved sexual humiliation to abduction and detention without charge or trial for YEARS.
I would bet the farm that the vast majority of US combat forces have either commited an atrocity or been privy to one or witnessed one and kept quiet.

You, on the contrary, would bet the farm that the vast majority of them would lay down their lives if it meant rescuing some Iraqi or Afghan toddler's kitten from a tree or some such naive fantasy.

jackiebaron

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

His pathetic attempt to justify it is irrelevent. Just as if I posted something along the lines of 'worshiping the day Muslims get bombed and killed' would be dismissed as ignorant at the very least, even if I tried to justify it by saying 'after what I've seen them do in the name of Islam.
And even then, regarding context, his post was two posts above mine, and linked to.

Its amazing that he only seems to be affected when the perpetrators are American, and he can use it as a way to bash the US

Tell me who else at this moment in time is slaughtering civilians somewhere in the world. Better still tell me who else is systematically butchering innocents and then claiming to be bringing them aid and comfort and shelter and security and patting themselves on the back for being so filled with goodness and empathy and righteousness.

Other examples of utter bastards are the Brits in Ireland and pretty much everywhere else in the world, the Italians in Libya (where they annihilated a full 30% of the male population) and Somalia, the Dutch in Indonesia, The French in Algeria and Indochina, The Japanese in Nanking and Burma, The Nazis all over Europe and Africa, the Belgians in Congo, the Turks in Armenia, to name but a few.....but that was all in the past and I can't recall reading any of them claiming that they were "helping" the victims of their murders. At least they had the decency to speak honestly.

When Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds it was a despicable outrage. When Churchill did the exact same thing it was an "experiment" in "spreading a lively terror" as he despised the "squeamishness" of those who objected to using poisonous gas against "uncivilised tribes"

So you see I am fully aware of the massacres of the past (predominantly conducted by white western Europeans against people of colour) and am just as sickened by them.

But right now it seems the Americans are the only ones conducting their own personal holocaust against Arabs, Paks and Pashtuns and they're telling suckers like you that they're really nice guys.

Positively laughable.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to this guy:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30913.htm

humanji

jackiebaron wrote: »

Humanji, if you want to spend your life giving American soldiers and their paymasters the benefit of the doubt then that's your prerogative. It seems the brainwashing has had an effect even on potentially free-thinking individuals such as yourself. No matter what acts of sheer brutality the American occupation forces engage in you will try to excuse the rest of them speaking about isolated incidents and bad apples and stress and PTSD and all that crap. Well somehow I feel we've been here before from the countless bombings of wedding parties, funeral processions, agricultural workers (shepherds, wood gatherers, etc.), to slaughters in Haditha, Fallujah, etc., to the rape of teenage girls, to the nightly murders in household raids, to massacring civilians and camera crews from helicopters and then even opening fire on the children (incidentally one of the soldiers who arrived at the scene of that carnage said that this was a DAILY OCCURENCE..including the driving over bodies with tanks crushing them to mincemeat) of those who come to assist the wounded and then gloat about it, to the use of banned weapons such as white phosphorous and napalm on civilians to torture and depraved sexual humiliation to abduction and detention without charge or trial for YEARS.
I would bet the farm that the vast majority of US combat forces have either commited an atrocity or been privy to one or witnessed one and kept quiet.

You, on the contrary, would bet the farm that the vast majority of them would lay down their lives if it meant rescuing some Iraqi or Afghan toddler's kitten from a tree or some such naive fantasy.

The mere fact that your only way of defending your argument is to try and belittle those who disagree with you pretty much somes it all up.

It's really quite simple:

Have atrocities happened? Yes.
Has every US soldier commited an atrocity? No.
Should all US soldiers be executed anyway? Of course not. It's insane to think they should. It's just as insane as it is for the soldier(s) responsible for what happened in Kanahar to think it's ok to go and shoot civilians. Or just as insane as it is to strap explosives to yourself and blow up a load of people.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

The mere fact that your only way of defending your argument is to try and belittle those who disagree with you pretty much somes it all up.

It's really quite simple:

Have atrocities happened? Yes.
Has every US soldier commited an atrocity? No.
Should all US soldiers be executed anyway? Of course not. It's insane to think they should. It's just as insane as it is for the soldier(s) responsible for what happened in Kanahar to think it's ok to go and shoot civilians. Or just as insane as it is to strap explosives to yourself and blow up a load of people.

Ah here, now you're just prevaricating. To get one thing straight I never advocated that all American soldiers should be executed. There's a big difference.

And see how you tree to bleach the truth with your wordplay?
"Have attrocities happened?" .... that kind of language nauseates me. It truly is the realm of cowards like Hillary Clinton and most other mouthpieces in Washington. You couldn't even bring yourself to ask the question in its true and proper form, i.e.

"Have American Forces committed multiple atrocities and acts of barbarism?" YES!!

Kinda shows things in a different light to the sanitised newspeak that you use.

I see this kind of mealy-mouthed rhetoric all the time when politicians have to explain away an act of wanton brutality or a arrogant and hamfisted operation that has resulted in civilian deaths. You get the bland "mistakes were made" platitude. They can't even say who made the mistakes or who was responsible. That would take political courage and a good dose of moral fibre....attributes that are in short supply these days.

But back to the point. Technically all US soldiers serving in Iraq or Afghanistan are war criminals. Now I don't give a toss about the pen pusher in the base who heard a rumour that some psycho machine gunned a bunch of market vendors just for fun. He's a war criminal for not doing anything about it but since the woluld be killer is never going to be tried or even punished then it's fantasy to think anything would happen to the pen pusher.
So I don't know where you got this " should be executed for war crimes" mumbo jumbo. I stated that I welcomed attacks on the occupation forces after what they have routinely done.
And if some security guard walks in and blows the pen-pusher's head off in a rage against Koran burnings or the rape of schoolgirls then I won't shed a tear.

humanji

jackiebaron wrote: »

Ah here, now you're just prevaricating. To get one thing straight I never advocated that all American soldiers should be executed. There's a big difference.

Your exact words: "I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do." Now, how does that differentiate between those who have commited crimes against humanity and those who haven't?

You can dance around the subject as much as you like.

And see how you tree to bleach the truth with your wordplay?
"Have attrocities happened?" .... that kind of language nauseates me. It truly is the realm of cowards like Hillary Clinton and most other mouthpieces in Washington. You couldn't even bring yourself to ask the question in its true and proper form, i.e.

"Have American Forces committed multiple atrocities and acts of barbarism?" YES!!

Kinda shows things in a different light to the sanitised newspeak that you use.

I see this kind of mealy-mouthed rhetoric all the time when politicians have to explain away an act of wanton brutality or a arrogant and hamfisted operation that has resulted in civilian deaths. You get the bland "mistakes were made" platitude. They can't even say who made the mistakes or who was responsible. That would take political courage and a good dose of moral fibre....attributes that are in short supply these days.

I'm not trying to bleach anything. Again, you can't argue the point so you're building a strawman to fight instead.

But back to the point. Technically all US soldiers serving in Iraq or Afghanistan are war criminals.

Technically, they are not.

Now I don't give a toss about the pen pusher in the base who heard a rumour that some psycho machine gunned a bunch of market vendors just for fun. He's a war criminal for not doing anything about it but since the woluld be killer is never going to be tried or even punished then it's fantasy to think anything would happen to the pen pusher.
So I don't know where you got this " should be executed for war crimes" mumbo jumbo. I stated that I welcomed attacks on the occupation forces after what they have routinely done.
And if some security guard walks in and blows the pen-pusher's head off in a rage against Koran burnings or the rape of schoolgirls then I won't shed a tear.

No, you'll celebrate. Just like I'm sure some people celebrated when when they heard about this massacre. Or when planes were flown into the twin towers. Or when the Omagh bomb went off. Or during any other horrific act perpetrated by people throughout history. Right now, the only differnce between you and the guy(s) who shot those people was they don't seem to be trying to justify it.

Me, on the other hand, would prefer the guilty be punished instead of hoping that anyone loosely associated gets their head blown off.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

Your exact words: "I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do." Now, how does that differentiate between those who have commited crimes against humanity and those who haven't?

You can dance around the subject as much as you like.


I'm not trying to bleach anything. Again, you can't argue the point so you're building a strawman to fight instead.


Technically, they are not.


No, you'll celebrate. Just like I'm sure some people celebrated when when they heard about this massacre. Or when planes were flown into the twin towers. Or when the Omagh bomb went off. Or during any other horrific act perpetrated by people throughout history. Right now, the only differnce between you and the guy(s) who shot those people was they don't seem to be trying to justify it.

Me, on the other hand, would prefer the guilty be punished instead of hoping that anyone loosely associated gets their head blown off.

How can you not be nauseated when hearing people giggle about death?

Having heard this....I almost got sick.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2d0_1331227076

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

Your exact words: "I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do." Now, how does that differentiate between those who have commited crimes against humanity and those who haven't?

You can dance around the subject as much as you like.


I'm not trying to bleach anything. Again, you can't argue the point so you're building a strawman to fight instead.


Technically, they are not.


No, you'll celebrate. Just like I'm sure some people celebrated when when they heard about this massacre. Or when planes were flown into the twin towers. Or when the Omagh bomb went off. Or during any other horrific act perpetrated by people throughout history. Right now, the only differnce between you and the guy(s) who shot those people was they don't seem to be trying to justify it.

Me, on the other hand, would prefer the guilty be punished instead of hoping that anyone loosely associated gets their head blown off.

When the Omagh bomb went off, I was embraced by owners of an Indian restaurant in Antwerp as my eyes filled with water. The day prior they said to me that things seemed to be going well in Ireland.

How DARE you even suggest or allude to the fact that I may have some kind of sympathy with such an act of barbarism.

But I'll tell you one very simple thing, and it's this .... the CIRA or RIRA or PIRA or any other permutation of the effing alphabet have never raped a child like your glorious US gang of thugs. They've never marched into a house in the dead of night, butchered 9 children and 6 mothers and then arranged them all in a pyre and then be spirited away to a comfy hotel room 10,000 miles away.

clever_name

jackiebaron wrote: »

How can you not be nauseated when hearing people giggle about death?

Having heard this....I almost got sick.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2d0_1331227076

Yeah people being glib about death is a bit sick.

jackiebaron wrote: »

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

jackiebaron wrote: »

And if some security guard walks in and blows the pen-pusher's head off in a rage against Koran burnings or the rape of schoolgirls then I won't shed a tear.

As for the following, let me say one thing;

jackiebaron wrote: »

When the Omagh bomb went off, I was embraced by owners of an Indian restaurant in Antwerp as my eyes filled with water. The day prior they said to me that things seemed to be going well in Ireland.

How DARE you even suggest or allude to the fact that I may have some kind of sympathy with such an act of barbarism.

If you were in the same restaurant and a news report announced the deaths of 30 US soldiers you, by your own admission, would feel joy, something you "worship" had happened. That discordance, intentional or not, is very strange to me.

I can not imagine what its like to have to listen to a news report and have to wait to hear the nationality of people involved before deciding if a death is good or bad news.

jackiebaron

clever_name wrote: »

Yeah people being glib about death is a bit sick.






As for the following, let me say one thing;



If you were in the same restaurant and a news report announced the deaths of 30 US soldiers you, by your own admission, would feel joy, something you "worship" had happened. That discordance, intentional or not, is very strange to me.

I can not imagine what its like to have to listen to a news report and have to wait to hear the nationality of people involved before deciding if a death is good or bad news.

The Omagh bomb massacred innocent men women and children. If the Omagh bomb happened a week after bloody sunday and killed a few dozen parachute regiment thugs then yes I would probably be quite unsympathetic about it. Likewise about US Marine Corps savages who "light up" villages for kicks and then get blown to atoms in a IED attack.

And according to Hamid Karzai this massacre is just one of SEVERAL HUNDRED.
That's an awful lot of "isolated incidents" and "bad apples"

This massacre and its subsequent coverup is one massive and callous conspiracy. Read it for yourself:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30922.htm

clever_name

jackiebaron wrote: »

The Omagh bomb massacred innocent men women and children. If the Omagh bomb happened a week after bloody sunday and killed a few dozen parachute regiment thugs then yes I would probably be quite unsympathetic about it. Likewise about US Marine Corps savages who "light up" villages for kicks and then get blown to atoms in a IED attack.

Can you clear something up please, are you trying to distance yourself from the initial comment; you have moved from "worshiping" the deaths to being "probably quite unsympathetic".

Also the outrage expressed in the following does not ring true,

jackiebaron wrote: »

How DARE you even suggest or allude to the fact that I may have some kind of sympathy with such an act of barbarism.

You have basically now stated that you have no problem with an "act of barbarism" once the right people get killed. I find it sad that you have used the word savage to describe others while expressing opinions such as these.

like I said I cant imagine what its like to have to listen to a news report and have to wait to hear the nationality of people involved before deciding if a death is good or bad news.

jackiebaron

clever_name wrote: »

Can you clear something up please, are you trying to distance yourself from the initial comment; you have moved from "worshiping" the deaths to being "probably quite unsympathetic".

Also the outrage expressed in the following does not ring true,



You have basically now stated that you have no problem with an "act of barbarism" once the right people get killed. I find it sad that you have used the word savage to describe others while expressing opinions such as these.

like I said I cant imagine what its like to have to listen to a news report and have to wait to hear the nationality of people involved before deciding if a death is good or bad news.

Clever_name, I'll give you that. When first I used the term worship I was typing with angry fingers. But I'll stand by my assertion that while attacks on US forces don't bring me glee and euphoria I am certainly pleased when they occur. Much the same as I am pleased when a schoolyard bully meets his Waterloo at the hands of a smaller and underestimated victim or when any miscreant be he a rapist, wife-beater or neighbourhood racketeer meet a violent demise. In the latter cases I would champion the judicial system to deal with the transgressor. I am no supporter of mob rule. But in Afghanistan no such protection or assurance can be given to the simple people who have been wronged so often. No US soldier who rapes or maims or murders or steals will face any kind of legal punishment and this has been demonstrated ad infinitum to the Afghan people. Consequently they should only expect retribution in the form of death and dismemberment for their thuggery.

Here's another article for you to read. I urge you to read it and see just how pitiless, racist and arrogant US troops are in their colonial outposts. They well and truly see the Afghan people as Untermenschen.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/gary-leupp/42236/familiarity-breeds-contempt-the-crisis-of-incompatibility-in-afghanistan

stuar

humanji wrote: »

Your exact words: "I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do." Now, how does that differentiate between those who have commited crimes against humanity and those who haven't?


Me, on the other hand, would prefer the guilty be punished instead of hoping that anyone loosely associated gets their head blown off.

But he said that after the video with graphic images, skinned face's, brain's pulled out by hand, shot 16 year old boy, etc, matter of perspective how you interpret his words, I don't think as you argued earlier that a medic who never shot a gun in war could have done any of these acts, so I can't see how his words can be read:
"I worship the day when every single American get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them American soldiers do", like your IRA analogy seemed to suggest he said.

I took it as Jackie saying the guilty soldiers.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

Your exact words: "I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do." Now, how does that differentiate between those who have commited crimes against humanity and those who haven't?

You can dance around the subject as much as you like.


I'm not trying to bleach anything. Again, you can't argue the point so you're building a strawman to fight instead.


Technically, they are not.


No, you'll celebrate. Just like I'm sure some people celebrated when when they heard about this massacre. Or when planes were flown into the twin towers. Or when the Omagh bomb went off. Or during any other horrific act perpetrated by people throughout history. Right now, the only differnce between you and the guy(s) who shot those people was they don't seem to be trying to justify it.

Me, on the other hand, would prefer the guilty be punished instead of hoping that anyone loosely associated gets their head blown off.

And therein lies the problem. It seems to have escaped your attention that the hundreds, if not thousands, of atrocities and war crimes committed by US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq are NEVER punished. NEVER. This shows a blatant disregard for the value of the rights or even the lives of these Afghan people that the Americans büll**** on about being so eager to help.
A gang of ignorant swaggering assholes in a humvee take pot shots at a farmer's cattle, just for fun, obliterating his entire livelihood and they will never be brought to book. In the clear absence of justice the only recourse is retribution.
Furthermore, if so many of these US forces are upstanding and moral then why the hell aren't they disciplining or even killing the so-called loose cannons that put all of their lives in danger with their displays of brutality? If a nephew of yours was clearly stoking up trouble and causing your house to be vandalised or your kids to be attacked in response to his büll**** would you plead with the recipients of his harassment or would you knock some fücking sense into the prick?

jackiebaron

Perhaps a little satire would help:

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

Technically, they are not.

Technically they ARE.

Any participant in the supreme international crime, i.e. a war of aggression, under the Nuremberg Charter, is a war criminal. You accuse me of dancing around yet the fact that participants in this war are war criminals is indisputable and you cannot deny it. It codified in the LAW.

I might also remind you that according to to the US Constitution, any treaties entered into are to be the "Supreme Law of the Land".

I'll spell that out for you. The Geneva Conventions and the Nuremberg Charter SUPERSEDE the US Constitution.

Ill-treatment of civilians is a war crime. Now, while pushing around a few guys at a checkpoint or getting Muslim kids to chant "I love pork" may be petty, nasty and distastefully immature, it still constitutes a war crime. You have denied it and you are wrong.

Do your homework humanji.

jackiebaron

Jesus F. Christ....I just saw the most pathetic report on CNN of a "brave soldier" who lost his life "trying to save a little Afghan girl"

Just to take the edge off the latest in hundreds of slaughters and one that is inconveniently rising to the surface.

The audacity of these gobshïtes. They expect us to even entertain the thoughts of such crap and Wolf Blitzer is there puking "our thoughts are with the family of that brave serviceman".

They won't make the same mistake that they made with the Jessica Lynch farce though. Just report some crap and leave it at that.

Fücking dullards!

humanji

jackiebaron wrote: »

How can you not be nauseated when hearing people giggle about death?

Having heard this....I almost got sick.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2d0_1331227076

Who said I wasn't?

jackiebaron wrote: »

When the Omagh bomb went off, I was embraced by owners of an Indian restaurant in Antwerp as my eyes filled with water. The day prior they said to me that things seemed to be going well in Ireland.

What has that got to do with what I said?

How DARE you even suggest or allude to the fact that I may have some kind of sympathy with such an act of barbarism.

I simply pointed out that your celebration of the deaths of people is no different to others celebrating the deaths of people. You and the IRA both justify it to yourselves, but you're both still wrong.

But I'll tell you one very simple thing, and it's this .... the CIRA or RIRA or PIRA or any other permutation of the effing alphabet have never raped a child like your glorious US gang of thugs. They've never marched into a house in the dead of night, butchered 9 children and 6 mothers and then arranged them all in a pyre and then be spirited away to a comfy hotel room 10,000 miles away.

And everyone in the US army has done all those things? Oh no I forgot, they're merely guilty by association and their deaths should be celebrate.

stuar wrote: »

But he said that after the video with graphic images, skinned face's, brain's pulled out by hand, shot 16 year old boy, etc, matter of perspective how you interpret his words, I don't think as you argued earlier that a medic who never shot a gun in war could have done any of these acts, so I can't see how his words can be read:
"I worship the day when every single American get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them American soldiers do", like your IRA analogy seemed to suggest he said.

I took it as Jackie saying the guilty soldiers.

Well that's not what he said. And he reintereated that they're all guilty.

jackiebaron wrote:

And therein lies the problem. It seems to have escaped your attention that the hundreds, if not thousands, of atrocities and war crimes committed by US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq are NEVER punished.

It hasn't escaped my attention. I simply don't hold the innocent as being guilty of the crimes of others. I also don't demand their deaths. That would lower me to their level.

jackiebaron wrote:

If a nephew of yours was clearly stoking up trouble and causing your house to be vandalised or your kids to be attacked in response to his büll**** would you plead with the recipients of his harassment or would you knock some fücking sense into the prick?

By your logic, both you, your nephew and your kids should all be punished, as you're all related and therefore complicit in the crimes. What did you do to warrant such a punishment?

jackiebaron wrote:

Technically they ARE.

Any participant in the supreme international crime, i.e. a war of aggression, under the Nuremberg Charter, is a war criminal. You accuse me of dancing around yet the fact that participants in this war are war criminals is indisputable and you cannot deny it. It codified in the LAW.

I might also remind you that according to to the US Constitution, any treaties entered into are to be the "Supreme Law of the Land".

I'll spell that out for you. The Geneva Conventions and the Nuremberg Charter SUPERSEDE the US Constitution.

Ill-treatment of civilians is a war crime. Now, while pushing around a few guys at a checkpoint or getting Muslim kids to chant "I love pork" may be petty, nasty and distastefully immature, it still constitutes a war crime. You have denied it and you are wrong.

Do your homework humanji.

I'll say it again, by your own admission it's an illegal war. Therefore it is not a valid war. Therefore no warcrime can be commited. What are being commited are crimes against humanity, which means both the Geneva Convention and Nuremberg charter don't come into affect, though many other charters do (but the US hasn't signed up to a great many of them).

I'm not arguing that these other charters are being ignored. I'm not saying that atrocities aren't being commited. I'm saying that assuming that every US soldier is guilty by association to things they have no knowledge of is insane. I'm saying that assuming that all soldiers must have knowledge of these crimes is insane. And most importantly, I'm saying that deciding that one life is worth less than another is insane. Thinking that way puts you on the same level as those soldiers you're complaining about, the IRA, Al Quaeda and any other reprehensible group that have decided that life is theirs to take away.

davoxx

humanji wrote: »

I'll say it again, by your own admission it's an illegal war. Therefore it is not a valid war. Therefore no warcrime can be commited. What are being commited are crimes against humanity, which means both the Geneva Convention and Nuremberg charter don't come into affect, though many other charters do (but the US hasn't signed up to a great many of them).

so it's not a war, but an illegal war?

is illegal war not a subset of war? seems a bit like an american excuse ...

humanji

davoxx wrote: »

so it's not a war, but an illegal war?

is illegal war not a subset of war? seems a bit like an american excuse ...

Not really. I know it sounds ridiculous, but wars have to be legally justified. A country can't just go to war for no reason (that's why the US had to pretend Iraq still had WMD's, for example). A lot of the times in recent history, these reasons have been frivolous, but no other country would really speak out against them as it would upset trade agreements (since it's usually the US that's involved in them).

If a war isn't legal, then it isn't classified as a war, but an unsanctioned military action which would require action to stop by other countries (but nobody wants to get in the way of the US). War crimes only occur in legal wars. Otherwise they are classed as (in my opinion) the much worse "Crimes against Humanity", of which War Crimes are a subset.

davoxx

humanji wrote: »

Not really. I know it sounds ridiculous, but wars have to be legally justified.

that's okay, as long we agree it sounds ridiculous

it is all legal crap that certain leaders like to dance around. international law is ignored when inconvenient and this leads to claims that a war is not a war when it's and invasion which is not an invasion but a liberation ...

to be honest i get your point, but i disagree with it and the fundamental idea behind it, which the west hides behind while waving the flag of legal justice.

it sickens me that people can't see the hypocrisy of saying torture is illegal and then allowing water boarding.

i believe the term "war crime" relates to crimes committed by the military of a country or countries. but i can imagine a seedy lawyer arguing either way for the appropriate sum of money ...

Jeboa Safari

jackiebaron wrote: »

Tell me who else at this moment in time is slaughtering civilians somewhere in the world. Better still tell me who else is systematically butchering innocents and then claiming to be bringing them aid and comfort and shelter and security and patting themselves on the back for being so filled with goodness and empathy and righteousness.

Pick nearly any conflict on the planet

Other examples of utter bastards are the Brits in Ireland and pretty much everywhere else in the world, the Italians in Libya (where they annihilated a full 30% of the male population) and Somalia, the Dutch in Indonesia, The French in Algeria and Indochina, The Japanese in Nanking and Burma, The Nazis all over Europe and Africa, the Belgians in Congo, the Turks in Armenia, to name but a few.....but that was all in the past and I can't recall reading any of them claiming that they were "helping" the victims of their murders. At least they had the decency to speak honestly.

When Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds it was a despicable outrage. When Churchill did the exact same thing it was an "experiment" in "spreading a lively terror" as he despised the "squeamishness" of those who objected to using poisonous gas against "uncivilised tribes"

Not that I'm Churchills biggest fan, but gor the sake of Brown Bomber and context, here's Churchills full quote (not that I've seen anyone here defending Churchills (unproven) use of gas)

I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas.

I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.

So you see I am fully aware of the massacres of the past (predominantly conducted by white western Europeans against people of colour) and am just as sickened by them.

But right now it seems the Americans are the only ones conducting their own personal holocaust against Arabs, Paks and Pashtuns and they're telling suckers like you that they're really nice guys.

Positively laughable.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to this guy:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30913.htm

This must be one of those holocausts where the population actually rises then is it?


Also interesting to note your hypocrisy here

enno99

Child witnesses to Afghan massacre say Robert Bales was not alone

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10927844-child-witnesses-to-afghan-massacre-say-robert-bales-was-not-alone

jackiebaron

Brave cünts

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30942.htm