What happened in Kandahar?

Brown Bomber

Crazed lone-gunman or organised massacre?

Up to 20 US troops executed Panjwai massacre: probe
by Bashir Ahmad NaadimonMar 15, 2012 - 21:33

KANDAHAR CITY (PAN): A parliamentary probe team on Thursday said up to 20 American troops were involved in Sunday’s killing of 16 civilians in southern Kandahar province.

The probing delegation includes lawmakers Hamidzai Lali, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, Shakiba Hashimi, Syed Mohammad Akhund and Bismillah Afghanmal, all representing Kandahar province at the Wolesi Jirga and Abdul Latif Padram, a lawmaker from northern Badakhshan province, Mirbat Mangal, Khost province, Muhammad Sarwar Usmani, Farah province.

The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.

Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.

“We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said.

He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

“The villages are one and a half kilometre from the American military base. We are convinced that one soldier cannot kill so many people in two villages within one hour at the same time, and the 16 civilians, most of them children and women, have been killed by the two groups.”

Lali asked the Afghan government, the United Nations and the international community to ensure the perpetrators were punished in Afghanistan.

He expressed his anger that the US soldier, the prime suspect in the shooting, had been flown out of Afghanistan to Kuwait.

He said the people they met had warned if the responsible troops were not punished, they would launch a movement against Afghans who had agreed to foreign troops’ presence in Afghanistan under the first Bonn conference in 2001.

The lawmaker said the Wolesi Jirga would not sit silent until the killers were prosecuted in Afghanistan. "If the international community does not play its role in punishing the perpetrators, the Wolesi Jirga would declare foreign troops as occupying forces, like the Russians," Lali warned.

President Hamid Karzai on Thursday asked the US to pull out all its troops from Afghan villages in response to the killings.
http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/03/15/20-us-troops-executed-panjwai-massacre-probe

enno99

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Crazed lone-gunman or organised massacre?

I read somewhere he done 3 tours in Iraq

If this story is anything to go by the organised bit dont seem far fetched

WARNING: Graphic and disturbing photos between 38:40 and 40:45.
U.S. Army Ranger John Needham, who was awarded two purple hearts and three medals for heroism, wrote to military authorities in 2007 reporting war crimes that he witnessed being committed by his own command and fellow soldiers in Al Doura, Iraq. His charges were supported by atrocity photos which, in the public interest, are now released in this video. John paid a terrible price for his opposition to these acts. His story is tragic

http://vimeo.com/33755968

(Can the video be put in like utube)

jackiebaron

Of course this was an "isolated" incident just like the Haditha Massacres and Abu Ghraib, and Bagram, and the burning of Korans, and the pissing on Korans in Guantanamo, and the pissing on corpses, and the slaughter from the air of civilians, cameramen and kids in Baghdad, and the Fallujah Massacre, and the drone attacks on shepherd boys, and all the other stomach churning attrocities that occur daily. They're all isolated incidents and do not reflect on the pristine reputation of the US forces.

http://rt.com/news/massacre-kandahar-soldier-american-705/

RMD

jackiebaron wrote: »

Of course this was an "isolated" incident just like the Haditha Massacres and Abu Ghraib, and Bagram, and the burning of Korans, and the pissing on Korans in Guantanamo, and the pissing on corpses, and the slaughter from the air of civilians, cameramen and kids in Baghdad, and the Fallujah Massacre, and the drone attacks on shepherd boys, and all the other stomach churning attrocities that occur daily. They're all isolated incidents and do not reflect on the pristine reputation of the US forces.

http://rt.com/news/massacre-kandahar-soldier-american-705/

Put hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a warzone where they face guerilla warfare combined with insufficient psychological support and you'll get these events regardless of what armed force it is.

I wouldn't label an entire force due to a small amount of scumbags.

cml387

The problem is from what I've read he wasn't a scumbag and in fact on previous missions had gone out of his way to prevent civilian casualties.

Most soldiers in Afghanistan must wonder wtf they're doing there.

jackiebaron

RMD wrote: »

Put hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a warzone where they face guerilla warfare combined with insufficient psychological support and you'll get these events regardless of what armed force it is.

I wouldn't label an entire force due to a small amount of scumbags.

GRAVEYARD OF EMPIRES

jackiebaron

RMD wrote: »

Put hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a warzone where they face guerilla warfare combined with insufficient psychological support and you'll get these events regardless of what armed force it is.

I wouldn't label an entire force due to a small amount of scumbags.

And how would you label this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/09/us-military-marines-nazi-ss-flag-photo

or this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=744_1229471245

And the 20 bastards who slaughtered 9 children in Kandahar? Heroes? Amazing that we don't hear any tales of a lone American soldier killing 16 well armed attackers and defending his unit. We only hear of thugs butchering women and kids in a drunken rage...and your excuse...."they're under pressure".

If a man back in the states touched a 5-year old's leg you'd call for him to be hanged....or dumped into a jail cell forever where he would be beaten and tortured. Yet when a soldier murders 9 kids and 7 parents and wounds 45 others ......well no death penalty for him, eh? He was under fücking stress, right.

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=355_1331458717


But, I'll tell you what, RMD....297 "American "HEROES" "have been dumped into a landfill in Virginia, it's ****ing LAUGHABLE!

So forget about all the wars and all the crap.....why don't you demand that all those bodies..and body parts be retrieved and given a proper burial.

Guarantee you, if you petition your government to bury these dead saps and their body parts, you would be beaten....and beaten to death.

kryogen

That pic with the SS flag definitely needs to be properly explained, the potential implications of it are disgraceful.

Jeboa Safari

jackiebaron wrote: »

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed.

Says a lot about you and the type of person you are. I think we can disregard your false outrage about atrocities as something you just see as a stick to beat the US with.

Jonny7

This is crazy stuff.

Brown Bomber

Jackie
I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. .

...

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Says a lot about you and the type of person you are. I think we can disregard your false outrage about atrocities as something you just see as a stick to beat the US with.

Jeboa,
If your going to make personal attacks against people based on their statements you should not quote them out of context.

This was his statement:

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed.After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

Can you see the difference?

enno99

Jonny7 wrote: »

This is crazy stuff.

What do you find crazy jonny7 that fact that one or more US troops murdered women and children and set fire to their bodies
Or that some people try to defend them with with all kinds of excuses

al28283

Brown Bomber wrote: »

...


Jeboa,
If your going to make personal attacks against people based on their statements you should not quote them out of context.



Can you see the difference?

Not really, he's still a scumbag for wishing death on anyone associated with these minority of soldiers who go off the rails

Brown Bomber

al28283 wrote: »

Not really, he's still a scumbag for wishing death on anyone associated with these minority of soldiers who go off the rails

By your logic Obama and his administration are far greater scumbags for not simply wishing death but actually killing US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki (and his 16 year old son) without indictment and due process for "association" with the Forth Hood massacre and the underwear bomber.

al28283

Brown Bomber wrote: »

By your logic Obama and his administration are far greater scumbags for not simply wishing death but actually killing US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki (and his 16 year old son) without indictment and due process for "association" with the Forth Hood massacre and the underwear bomber.

And by your logic, you equate someone sitting at home behind a keyboard wishing death on somebody and the president of the united states who is somewhat more involved in the situation.

I didn't state my thoughts on Obama and his administration so why bring it up?

Jonny7

enno99 wrote: »

What do you find crazy jonny7

even for Jackie, that's very extreme

humanji

al28283 infracted for personal abuse. JackieBaron, ease up on the hyperbole and calm down.

clever_name

jackiebaron wrote: »

And how would you label this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/09/us-military-marines-nazi-ss-flag-photo

or this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=744_1229471245

And the 20 bastards who slaughtered 9 children in Kandahar? Heroes? Amazing that we don't hear any tales of a lone American soldier killing 16 well armed attackers and defending his unit. We only hear of thugs butchering women and kids in a drunken rage...and your excuse...."they're under pressure".

If a man back in the states touched a 5-year old's leg you'd call for him to be hanged....or dumped into a jail cell forever where he would be beaten and tortured. Yet when a soldier murders 9 kids and 7 parents and wounds 45 others ......well no death penalty for him, eh? He was under fücking stress, right.

I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do...and then cowardly try to explain it away, it's revolting.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=355_1331458717


But, I'll tell you what, RMD....297 "American "HEROES" "have been dumped into a landfill in Virginia, it's ****ing LAUGHABLE!

So forget about all the wars and all the crap.....why don't you demand that all those bodies..and body parts be retrieved and given a proper burial.

Guarantee you, if you petition your government to bury these dead saps and their body parts, you would be beaten....and beaten to death.

Is it just American troops deaths you worship? for example do you have a deathwish for Danish troops aswell?

I'm not sure if you made a few mistakes in this post, it does look like you got a bit carried away, so I dont understand some of it, what has the milk man got to do with anything and do you really think the irish government would beat someone to death for asking about US soldiers?

jackiebaron

al28283 wrote: »

And by your logic, you equate someone sitting at home behind a keyboard wishing death on somebody and the president of the united states who is somewhat more involved in the situation.

I didn't state my thoughts on Obama and his administration so why bring it up?

How is me wishing death upon heavily armed occupation troops who bully and abuse and murder defenseless peasants any more barbaric than you trying to justify their coldblooded murders. I'm sick to my stomach of hearing this "few bad apples" bullsh!t. Nightly up to 25 civilians are murdered in cold blood:

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=95421&Cat=9

and STILL you bleat on about how the vast majority are "real stand-up guys". Change the fcuking record, why don't you. These soldiers are savages, plain and simple.

humanji

It's no different than me wishing you dead because being Irish (I'm assuming you are, if not pretend you are for the sake of this example) you are associated with the IRA and therefore guilty of their crimes. After all, it can't be just a few bad apples amongst the Irish people who are guilty.

You are claiming ALL soldiers over there are guilty of war crimes. We know you can't back it up because it's simply not true.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

It's no different than me wishing you dead because being Irish (I'm assuming you are, if not pretend you are for the sake of this example) you are associated with the IRA and therefore guilty of their crimes. After all, it can't be just a few bad apples amongst the Irish people who are guilty.

You are claiming ALL soldiers over there are guilty of war crimes. We know you can't back it up because it's simply not true.

All soldiers over there ARE guilty of war crimes. Since the war is illegal then all soldiers are complicit. You'll find that in the Nuremberg Charter AND the Uniform Code of Military Justice. How's that for "backing it up"?

And your Irish people / IRA analogy is pretty pathetic. I don't wish death upon Madonna or Samuel L Jackson or my ex-girlfriend or any other American civilian. They are not responsible for atrocities in Afghanistan any more than Irish civilians are responsible for IRA bombings.

humanji

jackiebaron wrote: »

All soldiers over there ARE guilty of war crimes. Since the war is illegal then all soldiers are complicit. You'll find that in the Nuremberg Charter AND the Uniform Code of Military Justice. How's that for "backing it up"?

And your Irish people / IRA analogy is pretty pathetic. I don't wish death upon Madonna or Samuel L Jackson or my ex-girlfriend or any other American civilian. They are not responsible for atrocities in Afghanistan any more than Irish civilians are responsible for IRA bombings.

Firstly, the legality of the war is highly disputed and can be proven either way.

Secondly, assuming that the war is illegal, then no actual war is happening and therefore no war crimes can be commited. What you would be complainnig about are crimes against humanity.

Thirdly, to be guilty of a crime against humanity or a war crime (which is covered by the former) you actually have to commit a crime against humanity. A medic who has never fired a gun at anything other than a practice target and spends their tour of Afghanistan in a hospital treating sick children is not commiting a war crime. But by your logic they deserve to die for some reason.

And my IRA analogy is actually rather accurate. You've decided that a large group of people are guilty by association and decided that the sentence is death. Ironically enough, it's the same mentallity that a deranged soldier in Afghanistan would have as they go off to shoot civilians.

Jeboa Safari

Brown Bomber wrote: »

...


Jeboa,
If your going to make personal attacks against people based on their statements you should not quote them out of context.

This was his statement:

Can you see the difference?

Yes, that makes all the difference :rolleyes:

I'm sure if I wrote something like "I worship the day when Muslims are bombed and killed. After what I've seen them do in the name of Islam, it's revolting" you'd be all over it in hysterics, outrage meter to the full, full sentence quoted or not

Brown Bomber

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Yes, that makes all the difference :rolleyes:

It does actually.

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

I'm sure if I wrote something like "I worship the day when Muslims are bombed and killed. After what I've seen them do in the name of Islam, it's revolting" you'd be all over it in hysterics, outrage meter to the full, full sentence quoted or not

That doesn't make any sense.

Jeboa Safari

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It does actually.

Its a ridiculous statement, even with his attempts to justify it. And his full post was just above mine, Mr Context, and linked to.

That doesn't make any sense.

Makes sense to me anyway

Brown Bomber

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Its a ridiculous statement, even with his attempts to justify it. And his full post was just above mine, Mr Context, and linked to.

If it was so ridiculous then you should have been able to quote him in context and still made the same point. It's a question of integrity. Consider these two hypothethical statements:

1- I hope my neighbour get's killed.
2 - I hope my neighbour get's killed after he mollested my daughter.

2 is considerably more reasonable than 1, though it is a matter of perspective whether either is justifiable or moral a position to hold. It is clear without taking the quote out of context that the wish of death only came about as a result of the the fact. It is a reaction.

Now consider Jackies statement vs what you've quoted:

1.You:
"I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed."

2.Jackie:
"I worship the day when American soldiers get attacked and killed. After what I've seen them do."

(again and equally)

2 is considerably more reasonable than 1, though it is a matter of perspective whether either is justifiable or moral a position to hold. It is clear without taking the quote out of context that the wish of death only came about as a result of the the fact. It is a reaction.

Ultimately it is a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell Jackie is affected by the raping and murdering of defenseless people via a military occupation. It's empathy, a normal and healthy human emotion. I believe he is further riled, and is knowledgeable enough to know that a cover-up is more likely than justice in these cases - such as the My Lai Massacre, where a team of US soliders murdered hundreds of innocent and defenseless Vietnames civilians including women and children. Only one person was ever punished, and that was only house arrest for a couple of years before receiveing a Presidential pardon.

As for my own opinion on the rank-and-file military I very much agree with Thoreau in Civil Disobedience:

[SIZE=+1] A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys, and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy-Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black arts- a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with funeral accompaniments, though it may be...
[/SIZE]
...The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs.

Jeboa Safari

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If it was so ridiculous then you should have been able to quote him in context and still made the same point. It's a question of integrity. Consider these two hypothethical statements:


2 is considerably more reasonable than 1, though it is a matter of perspective whether either is justifiable or moral a position to hold. It is clear without taking the quote out of context that the wish of death only came about as a result of the the fact. It is a reaction.

His pathetic attempt to justify it is irrelevent. Just as if I posted something along the lines of 'worshiping the day Muslims get bombed and killed' would be dismissed as ignorant at the very least, even if I tried to justify it by saying 'after what I've seen them do in the name of Islam.
And even then, regarding context, his post was two posts above mine, and linked to.

Ultimately it is a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell Jackie is affected by the raping and murdering of defenseless people via a military occupation. It's empathy, a normal and healthy human emotion. I believe he is further riled, and is knowledgeable enough to know that a cover-up is more likely than justice in these cases - such as the My Lai Massacre, where a team of US soliders murdered hundreds of innocent and defenseless Vietnames civilians including women and children. Only one person was ever punished, and that was only house arrest for a couple of years before receiveing a Presidential pardon.

Its amazing that he only seems to be affected when the perpetrators are American, and he can use it as a way to bash the US

humanji

Brown Bomber wrote: »

1- I hope my neighbour get's killed.
2 - I hope my neighbour get's killed after he mollested my daughter.

Actually, it's a case of:

3- I hope my neighbour gets killed because a member of their extended family mollested somebody and therefore my neighbour is also guilty.

jackiebaron

humanji wrote: »

Actually, it's a case of:

3- I hope my neighbour gets killed because a member of their extended family mollested somebody and therefore my neighbour is also guilty.

Humanji, if you want to spend your life giving American soldiers and their paymasters the benefit of the doubt then that's your prerogative. It seems the brainwashing has had an effect even on potentially free-thinking individuals such as yourself. No matter what acts of sheer brutality the American occupation forces engage in you will try to excuse the rest of them speaking about isolated incidents and bad apples and stress and PTSD and all that crap. Well somehow I feel we've been here before from the countless bombings of wedding parties, funeral processions, agricultural workers (shepherds, wood gatherers, etc.), to slaughters in Haditha, Fallujah, etc., to the rape of teenage girls, to the nightly murders in household raids, to massacring civilians and camera crews from helicopters and then even opening fire on the children (incidentally one of the soldiers who arrived at the scene of that carnage said that this was a DAILY OCCURENCE..including the driving over bodies with tanks crushing them to mincemeat) of those who come to assist the wounded and then gloat about it, to the use of banned weapons such as white phosphorous and napalm on civilians to torture and depraved sexual humiliation to abduction and detention without charge or trial for YEARS.
I would bet the farm that the vast majority of US combat forces have either commited an atrocity or been privy to one or witnessed one and kept quiet.

You, on the contrary, would bet the farm that the vast majority of them would lay down their lives if it meant rescuing some Iraqi or Afghan toddler's kitten from a tree or some such naive fantasy.

jackiebaron

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

His pathetic attempt to justify it is irrelevent. Just as if I posted something along the lines of 'worshiping the day Muslims get bombed and killed' would be dismissed as ignorant at the very least, even if I tried to justify it by saying 'after what I've seen them do in the name of Islam.
And even then, regarding context, his post was two posts above mine, and linked to.

Its amazing that he only seems to be affected when the perpetrators are American, and he can use it as a way to bash the US

Tell me who else at this moment in time is slaughtering civilians somewhere in the world. Better still tell me who else is systematically butchering innocents and then claiming to be bringing them aid and comfort and shelter and security and patting themselves on the back for being so filled with goodness and empathy and righteousness.

Other examples of utter bastards are the Brits in Ireland and pretty much everywhere else in the world, the Italians in Libya (where they annihilated a full 30% of the male population) and Somalia, the Dutch in Indonesia, The French in Algeria and Indochina, The Japanese in Nanking and Burma, The Nazis all over Europe and Africa, the Belgians in Congo, the Turks in Armenia, to name but a few.....but that was all in the past and I can't recall reading any of them claiming that they were "helping" the victims of their murders. At least they had the decency to speak honestly.

When Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds it was a despicable outrage. When Churchill did the exact same thing it was an "experiment" in "spreading a lively terror" as he despised the "squeamishness" of those who objected to using poisonous gas against "uncivilised tribes"

So you see I am fully aware of the massacres of the past (predominantly conducted by white western Europeans against people of colour) and am just as sickened by them.

But right now it seems the Americans are the only ones conducting their own personal holocaust against Arabs, Paks and Pashtuns and they're telling suckers like you that they're really nice guys.

Positively laughable.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to this guy:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30913.htm

humanji

jackiebaron wrote: »

Humanji, if you want to spend your life giving American soldiers and their paymasters the benefit of the doubt then that's your prerogative. It seems the brainwashing has had an effect even on potentially free-thinking individuals such as yourself. No matter what acts of sheer brutality the American occupation forces engage in you will try to excuse the rest of them speaking about isolated incidents and bad apples and stress and PTSD and all that crap. Well somehow I feel we've been here before from the countless bombings of wedding parties, funeral processions, agricultural workers (shepherds, wood gatherers, etc.), to slaughters in Haditha, Fallujah, etc., to the rape of teenage girls, to the nightly murders in household raids, to massacring civilians and camera crews from helicopters and then even opening fire on the children (incidentally one of the soldiers who arrived at the scene of that carnage said that this was a DAILY OCCURENCE..including the driving over bodies with tanks crushing them to mincemeat) of those who come to assist the wounded and then gloat about it, to the use of banned weapons such as white phosphorous and napalm on civilians to torture and depraved sexual humiliation to abduction and detention without charge or trial for YEARS.
I would bet the farm that the vast majority of US combat forces have either commited an atrocity or been privy to one or witnessed one and kept quiet.

You, on the contrary, would bet the farm that the vast majority of them would lay down their lives if it meant rescuing some Iraqi or Afghan toddler's kitten from a tree or some such naive fantasy.

The mere fact that your only way of defending your argument is to try and belittle those who disagree with you pretty much somes it all up.

It's really quite simple:

Have atrocities happened? Yes.
Has every US soldier commited an atrocity? No.
Should all US soldiers be executed anyway? Of course not. It's insane to think they should. It's just as insane as it is for the soldier(s) responsible for what happened in Kanahar to think it's ok to go and shoot civilians. Or just as insane as it is to strap explosives to yourself and blow up a load of people.