Time for a big clear-out in the Irish set-up?

boynesider

Time for a big clear-out in the Irish set-up?

I would suggest that it is.

Now I wouldn't describe myself as either a conservative or a radical when it comes to rugby, I try to use common sense. And I have to say that I thought big changes should have been made after the World Cup, but the powers that be thought otherwise, so I decided I would withhold judgement until the 6 nations was over. Now that we are here I would have to describe the last 3 years of Irish international rugby as pretty much disastrous (considering the talent availiable), and I don't think there is any reasonable argument against wholesale changes. Can we get any worse?

So this is what I would call a clearout

Players who should be gently asked to retire;

D'Arcy
Court
O'Callaghan
O'Leary

Players who aren't really contributing anything (in the first team) that a good young player with the potential to get even better might;

Heaslip
Trimble
Reddan
Mike Ross??

And last but not least, Declan Kidney. His stifling conservatism might be acceptable if it was bringing us consistent victories, but it isn't, so what exactly is its purpose (apart from driving us mad)?

So what do you think? Is this a knee jerk reaction and am I being too harsh on certain players? I'm trying not to be, but wouldn't we be foolish to look at the Welsh win today (based on an endearingly pro-youth policy and a positive game-plan) and not take lessons from it?

PS If one thing was proven today, it is the wisdom of the IRFU's new policy regarding NIQ players. We reaped what we have sown today by having only one regular tighthead across the four provinces. Country comes first in my eyes. Also feel sorry for Court. He's a decent loosehead, but is nowhere near being an international tighthead.

CIARAN_BOYLE

boynesider wrote: »

So this is what I would call a clearout

Players who should be gently asked to retire;

D'Arcy
Court
O'Callaghan
O'Leary

Players who aren't really contributing anything (in the first team) that a good young player with the potential to get even better might;

Heaslip
Trimble
Reddan
Mike Ross??

D'Arcy yes
Court who should replace him? I can't see anyone better in any province.
DOC yes
TOL who should be ahead, Murray is ahead but injured, Boss is ahead but is in NZ and was before Murray's injury due to his sick father

Ross who could honestly come close to replacing him, he anchored the Irish scrum for the entire 6Ns. He got injured today and kept playing before being hauled off.

boynesider

Maybe I'm harsh on Ross alright. I really like him as a player, but he was in big trouble in the scrum today before he went off, and if we're being honest his contributions around the park are pretty lamentable.

Court should be a loosehead or nothing.

The young props who I think would improve massively with more gametime, are Hagan, Jack Mcgrath, McAllister and particularly Adam Macklin of Ulster. He is an enormous tighthead with real dynamism around the pitch. From what I've seen of him his scrummaging has been very solid if not destructive.

Could one of these lads have been anywhere near as bad as Court today at TH? Hagan has his issues and Macklin hasn't played enough senior rugby, but I can't see how they could dis-improve the team going forward?

Podge_irl

I'd start with the coach.

Podge_irl

Also the poor showing in the scrum had nothing to do with NIQs or the lack of an alfernative tighthead. It had to do with only being able to have one prop on the bench. If we had Hagan there and Healy went down we'd be equally as screwed

PhatPiggins

I'd start with 'Irelands Call'

teednab-el

Hopefully Ireland are kicked out of the 6 nations after today.

purpleglory

how can you say get rid of Mike Ross. After today the IRFU should ask him does he want a raise. He is Ireland's most important player bar none!

copacetic

boynesider wrote: »

I don't think there is any reasonable argument against wholesale changes. Can we get any worse?

I knew these idiotic threads were coming.

The reasonable argument is that you aren't proposing changes, you are proposing dropping and retiring multiple vital players many of which have no possible replacement.

It's the usual argument of drop everyone, we are ****, but I haven't any idea at all if there is anyone to bring in, that's not my job. There must be great replacements around right? We probably have loads of world class players that we haven't been playing.

Kayless

boynesider wrote: »

Time for a big clear-out in the Irish set-up?

I would suggest that it is.

Now I wouldn't describe myself as either a conservative or a radical when it comes to rugby, I try to use common sense. And I have to say that I thought big changes should have been made after the World Cup, but the powers that be thought otherwise, so I decided I would withhold judgement until the 6 nations was over. Now that we are here I would have to describe the last 3 years of Irish international rugby as pretty much disastrous (considering the talent availiable), and I don't think there is any reasonable argument against wholesale changes. Can we get any worse?

So this is what I would call a clearout

Players who should be gently asked to retire;

D'Arcy
Court
O'Callaghan
O'Leary

Players who aren't really contributing anything (in the first team) that a good young player with the potential to get even better might;

Heaslip
Trimble
Reddan
Mike Ross??

And last but not least, Declan Kidney. His stifling conservatism might be acceptable if it was bringing us consistent victories, but it isn't, so what exactly is its purpose (apart from driving us mad)?

So what do you think? Is this a knee jerk reaction and am I being too harsh on certain players? I'm trying not to be, but wouldn't we be foolish to look at the Welsh win today (based on an endearingly pro-youth policy and a positive game-plan) and not take lessons from it?

PS If one thing was proven today, it is the wisdom of the IRFU's new policy regarding NIQ players. We reaped what we have sown today by having only one regular tighthead across the four provinces. Country comes first in my eyes. Also feel sorry for Court. He's a decent loosehead, but is nowhere near being an international tighthead.

Honestly I’m in disbelief, I cannot understand how this happened... a new coach and a new team with crap all caps beat THIS team even without BOD? NO something is wrong here... I just don’t know what happened. One thing I do know... and i mean this... I’ll be supporting France from now on in this particular competition... until we get a proper Coach/Manger from outside this country. I understand we can’t win every match but come on... what we did today was... Well make a laughing stock out of our selves, so much for the HC and RORY BEST, CIAN HEALY, STEPHEN FERRIS, ROB KEARNEY and JONATHAN SEXTON... this proves one thing to me... Football is better ...because real talent/ experience plays a role in the match and in this match it didn't - WUM - yes but point in case we have a ****E rugby team who let us down all the time and thank god for the English and the French... true rugby nations who show us how to play.

Sindri

D'Arcy certainly. McFadden and Fitz.

O' Leary certainly.

Kidney certainly.

O' Callaghan probably. He still has quite a bit to offer but Ryan is and should be ahead of him.

Court. That's a bit of a knee jerk reaction. He's a decent player, predominantly a loosehead, who can can cover tight head. He was dominated today but other days he has held his own.

I'd like another look at the English scrum. I've a sneaky suspicion they may have been cheating.

TimeToShine

Sindri wrote: »

I'd like another look at the English scrum. I've a sneaky suspicion they may have been cheating.

If you consider superior preparation from underage all the way to international level for their front row and scrum in general cheating then yes, they are filthy cheaters of the highest caliber.

Monty Burnz

Sindri wrote: »

I'd like another look at the English scrum. I've a sneaky suspicion they may have been cheating.

What I don't understand is why we are always the victims of this sort of thing and never the perps. We are missing a trick. And once your scrum has a reputation as being weak, the refs are only itching to penalise you at every opportunity.

mikedragon32

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What I don't understand is why we are always the victims of this sort of thing and never the perps. We are missing a trick. And once your scrum has a reputation as being weak, the refs are only itching to penalise you at every opportunity.

I guess part of that is down to who your forwards coach is. Graham Rowantree was one of the dirtiest players out there, so you can be sure he's passing on his tricks.

Otacon

Sindri wrote: »

I'd like another look at the English scrum. I've a sneaky suspicion they may have been cheating.

TimeToShine wrote: »

If you consider superior preparation from underage all the way to international level for their front row and scrum in general then yes, they are filthy cheaters of the highest caliber.

The boring-in also.

FionnRua

Ben Kaye says it all. There are some things the Rabo Direct does really well, scrummaging, unlike the English premiership, isn't one of them. Time for a change of focus I think

Sindri

TimeToShine wrote: »

If you consider superior preparation from underage all the way to international level for their front row and scrum in general then yes, they are filthy cheaters of the highest caliber.

We've had under age tightheads superior to English under age tightheads. England's relatively new superiority in the scrum didn't come from better under age preparation.

jimbomalley

Otacon wrote: »

Sindri wrote: »

I'd like another look at the English scrum. I've a sneaky suspicion they may have been cheating.

TimeToShine wrote: »

If you consider superior preparation from underage all the way to international level for their front row and scrum in general then yes, they are filthy cheaters of the highest caliber.

The boring-in also.

Straight out of the northhampton playbook. Feek was able to nullify it though in the HC so has to be more than the boring in that did us

Oafley Jones

jimbomalley wrote: »

Straight out of the northhampton playbook. Feek was able to nullify it though in the HC so has to be more than the boring in that did us

Cole was binding on the arm which wasn't helpful, pretty much like this thread.

jimbomalley

Oafley Jones wrote: »

jimbomalley wrote: »

Straight out of the northhampton playbook. Feek was able to nullify it though in the HC so has to be more than the boring in that did us

Cole was binding on the arm which wasn't helpful, pretty much like this thread.

Happens most games these days, it's not being reffed anymore

Brian

FionnRua wrote: »

Ben Kaye says it all. There are some things the Rabo Direct does really well, scrummaging, unlike the English premiership, isn't one of them. Time for a change of focus I think

It wouldn't be so bad if we were able to run with the ball, but that's not our strength either.

EPointer=Birdss

The nonsense above is ridiculous!
If you ever played or understand the game you cannot play rugby on the back foot! It's near impossible. I wouldn't judge or rate any player today on not shining as it wouldn't be fair. The scrum was inferior, the superior scrum took full advantage. Every single point they got was scrum related & our chance to attack were null as we lost most of our own ball also!

Yes there are players nearing the end of their careers, yes I would love to see new blood come through. The summer tour is the chance now to do this.

A few players had individual shockers with basic errors which school boys would be given out to for but that's sport.

A new coach - maybe time for a change in thinking, I am a firm believer in mixing things up every few years. New coach new ideas new players brought through etc. I wouldn't base this on knee jerk reaction today but an overall impression of our game development since the grand slam & the development of the teams around us - Wales & England who are doing well.

Give the players a break & let them re group for their provinces now & look forward to the HC...

Tox56

jimbomalley wrote: »

Straight out of the northhampton playbook. Feek was able to nullify it though in the HC so has to be more than the boring in that did us

Did you watch the final match of the group stages between Munster and Northampton? Northampton destroyed Munster in the scrum.

boynesider

copacetic wrote: »

I knew these idiotic threads were coming.

The reasonable argument is that you aren't proposing changes, you are proposing dropping and retiring multiple vital players many of which have no possible replacement.

It's the usual argument of drop everyone, we are ****, but I haven't any idea at all if there is anyone to bring in, that's not my job. There must be great replacements around right? We probably have loads of world class players that we haven't been playing.

Idiotic thread? Just who are you to call me idiotic?

Now I haven't a clue who you are, but I'm willing to bet that I am playing rugby at a far higher level than you (if you even play) and most other people on this board. I coach rugby a few nights a week and I've been deeply involved with the game for most of my life, so I really do resent armchair pundits making such petty and abusive statements at me



"It's the usual argument of drop everyone, we are ****, but I haven't any idea at all if there is anyone to bring in, that's not my job. There must be great replacements around right? We probably have loads of world class players that we haven't been playing"

That's pure guff. When did I say I have no idea of who there is to bring in or where did I say we should drop everyone?

I've attended nearly every home Leinster match this season, numerous A game and underage fixtures, and I've watched nearly every televised provincial game. I'm basing this thread on honest logic from someone who cares an awful lot about rugby in this country. I know there are lot's of talented young players who must now be brought on or else the next World Cup is going to be a disaster (and I'll name each and everyone of them if you want). If you can't see that you're living in the dark I'm afraid. This current set-up is on a highway to nowhere

.ak

The IRFU need to grow a pair and get rid of all the 'yes men' in the setup, including Kidney. Very vague statement, but the point I'm getting as the players have done little wrong here...

johnfás

You're quite right boynesider. Nobody in the squad "deserves" their place. You only deserve as good as you are right now and in fairness the players would all in fact hold to that.

Darcy just isn't good enough anymore. Sexton isn't a centre and although playing O'Gara and Sexton both on the pitch is an interesting development, albeit fairly obvious one given the role Sexton and Felipe played together at Leinster, it isn't an answer or a solution. We need to get McFadden on the pitch.

Furthermore, whilst Trimble has huge strength that could be extremely useful to the side he simply doesn't show an intelligence in the game that is sorely needed. Either that is as a result of training or it is simply the case. Either way it can't continue.

Heaslip has to be under serious pressure for his place. His performances have been less than lacklustre. You can't own a place in the squad.

I agree with sentiments regarding the coach. Ireland has failed for so long to be expansionist in its coach selection. We need an overseas coach who has no interest in the politics of what provinces he picks from and who has an idea of where he wants to take the team, rather than chasing the rest 18 months behind.

thomond2006

You'd wonder what McFadden must be thinking sitting on the bench when he sees ROG togging out at 50/60 minutes knowing that ROG is replacing someone who would be a direct replacement for himself.

boynesider

.ak wrote: »

The IRFU need to grow a pair and get rid of all the 'yes men' in the setup, including Kidney. Very vague statement, but the point I'm getting as the players have done little wrong here...

That's the spirit

shuffol

The longer Kidney stays on the more he's going to destroy his reputation, the reputation of certain players who are clearly not up to the standard of test rugby anymore and the prospects of the next Irish coach. Look at what McGahan walked into at Munster after Kidney totally neglected the academy in his final years.

Tox56

thomond2006 wrote: »

You'd wonder what McFadden must be thinking sitting on the bench when he sees ROG togging out at 50/60 minutes knowing that ROG is replacing someone who would be a direct replacement for himself.

Think about how Ryan must have felt, having to sit on the bench for most of the match while someone he has replaced at club level takes his place in the national team.

Kayless

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What I don't understand is why we are always the victims of this sort of thing and never the perps. We are missing a trick. And once your scrum has a reputation as being weak, the refs are only itching to penalise you at every opportunity.

why not just do away-way with the scrum? Its takes up way to much time in the match and counts for nothing. Still this can not take away from Ireland performance tonight, CRAP would be a good word. Less angry now I'm not sure what we need to do to improve, on one hand I see next year as a clean sheet, with the likes of Cave, Marshall and POC back starting with DOR as well as BOD back as captain, then on the other England might be even better... after a long think, think tonight was a one off and next year we'll have them. I just dont understand how we can do so well in the HC with these players then let things like today happen, BOD or not this is really bad!

Monty Burnz

Kayless wrote: »

why not just do away-way with the scrum? Its takes up way to much time in the match and counts for nothing.

That game already exists - league.

The scrum is great - it creates a need for different shaped players, which creates mismatches around the pitch. It also ties up all the forwards and creates space for the backs to exploit. The scrum is a key part of the game - more so than the line-out.

ormond lad

Kidneys biggest problem is he still in many ways acts like he is in charge of the PBC Senior Cup Team, he only looks to the next match.
He will nearly always pick the same guys over and over again even when the better option in many ways is proving him wrong right in front of him. Donnacha Ryan this season is case in point
He is in most cases allergic to change, and will give the incumbent a million chances to stay in the team

dougieruggie

Lets just throw caution to the wind and start developing players like McGrath and Conway now.

1.Healy
2.Best
3...........
4.Touhy
5.O'Connell
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.McGrath
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.Fitzgerald
13.Bowe
14.Conway
15.Kearney

We've got nothing to lose

thomond2006

haha you want to start a scrum half who apparently can't pass at u20s level?

ambid

dougieruggie wrote: »

Lets just throw caution to the wind and start developing players like McGrath and Conway now.

1.Healy
2.Best
3...........
4.Touhy
5.O'Connell
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.McGrath
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.Fitzgerald
13.Bowe
14.Conway
15.Kearney

We've got nothing to lose

Are you suggesting we drop Donnacha Ryan? He was probably our best forward of the championship! Why drop him now?

And surely you can't be suggesting Luke McGrath is ready for test rugby? He struggled in the U20 match last night and his pass looked very far short of Pro12 standard never mind test level.

Conway has lots of potential, but Trimble, K2, O'Halloran, Zebo and O'Dea would all have stronger claims based on form this season.

I do like your suggestion of Luke at 12 though

dougieruggie

ambid wrote: »

Are you suggesting we drop Donnacha Ryan? He was probably our best forward of the championship! Why drop him now?

And surely you can't be suggesting Luke McGrath is ready for test rugby? He struggled in the U20 match last night and his pass looked very far short of Pro12 standard never mind test level.

Conway has lots of potential, but Trimble, K2, O'Halloran, Zebo and O'Dea would all have stronger claims based on form this season.

I do like your suggestion of Luke at 12 though

Sorry i should have made it clearer. Thats an eventual team. By developing I mean just that. Thats my team of players who genuinely could be or are world class or in the case of Best, Earls and Bowe are very very close. To be honest I just dont see Trimble, O'Halloran, Zebo or O'Dea of getting to that level. Nor D.Kearney but I think we might be worth a shot at 13.

Lets not waste time on Murray, McFadden, Trimble, Henry. None of these guys will ever be world class.

Clegg

The most frustrating thing about Kidney is the fact that he hasn't made 1 unenforced change to the starting 15 all season. England and Wales have picked young and unproven players and have benefitted from that.

We have plenty of talented young players just begging for a chance and Kidney has failed to give them the opportunity. I would have been much happier with this 6 Nations if we had tried to blood a few new players. We've learned absolutely nothing from this tournament. And we still don't know how our young players will do internationally because Kidney won't pick them.

D'arcy and DOC shouldn't have been picked this 6N. Tuohy, Ryan and MC Fadden are 3 players that should feel very put out by Kidneys selections. And let's not forget the absolute braindead idea of moving Sexton to 12 to accommodate ROG.

dougieruggie

ambid wrote: »

Are you suggesting we drop Donnacha Ryan? He was probably our best forward of the championship! Why drop him now?

And surely you can't be suggesting Luke McGrath is ready for test rugby? He struggled in the U20 match last night and his pass looked very far short of Pro12 standard never mind test level.

Conway has lots of potential, but Trimble, K2, O'Halloran, Zebo and O'Dea would all have stronger claims based on form this season.

I do like your suggestion of Luke at 12 though

For the sole reason that POC is world class and if POC starts then Touhy does because we need ball carriers and hes the best ball carrying lock.

Monty Burnz

I presume a lot of journalists and posters will now simply dust off the pieces they wrote after the World Cup about how there's no need for a clear-out and that to do anything radical would be an over-reaction.

I got laughed out of it in some quarters here for suggesting we start building for WC 2016 immediately after WC 2012, and while the seeding issue is a reasonable and understandable point, if we build a decent side we shouldn't worry about being a third seeded team. Fearing having an additional half-decent team in our pool is classic IRFU conservatism. I don't imagine that SANZAR are crapping themselves at the thought of having both Italy and Scotland in their group, or whatever.

dougieruggie

You're right Monty. Its time to clear out a lot of the team. And build. A clearout of the IRFU as well.

RoundBox11

boynesider wrote: »

Players who aren't really contributing anything (in the first team) that a good young player with the potential to get even better might;

Heaslip
Trimble
Reddan
Mike Ross??

Are you serious? All four of those guys are great players and have been key to any success weve had. Heaslip is without doubt our most under-appreciated player, Ross is absolutely irriplaceable, Reddan has been central to any good play weve produced lately and Trimble is a class act who is just on a low atm.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

haha you want to start a scrum half who apparently can't pass at u20s level?

He's about 2 years away from playing for Leinster!

Tox56

If you were going to go all out youth, this is the most radical team you could realistically pick for an international sometime in the near future, preferably one that isn't too significant:

Healy
Cronin
Ross
Ryan
Tuohy
Ferris
POM
SOB
Murray/Marshall
Sexton
D. Kearney
McFadden
BOD
Bowe
Kearney/Jones

dougieruggie

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's about 2 years away from playing for Leinster!

Like I said, this is about developing him. I want to see him getting game time next season for Leinster with a view to playing for Ireland in the 2014 season. He has genuine potential to be world class alongside Conway.

its_phil

dougieruggie wrote: »

Like I said, this is about developing him. I want to see him getting game time next season for Leinster with a view to playing for Ireland in the 2014 season. He has genuine potential to be world class alongside Conway.

But you said you wanted to see them start playing now?

You can't say someone has the potential to be world class off the back of no senior starts, a few u20 games and a nice schools rugby CV. Far too soon for that talk. Show the business at senior level and then I feel people are entitled to start saying people are potentially world class. He's not ready for Leinster yet either but he does have a spark that shows he will get a chance sometime in the future.

slippy wicket

Is the elephant in the room here 4 games in 4 weeks.
There must have been an effect from that.

About the players, Darcy has been mediocre this 6N and it gives me no pleasure to say that about a fellow yellowbelly.
I imagine the only reason TOL was on the pitch was that there was nobody else available.

dougieruggie

its_phil wrote: »

But you said you wanted to see them start playing now?

No I didn't.

Chavways

Hopefully they will make a whole lot of changes for the Summer Internationals but I have a feeling that if Kidney is still in charge we will be seeing much the same team.

its_phil

dougieruggie wrote: »

Lets just throw caution to the wind and start developing players like McGrath and Conway now.

1.Healy
2.Best
3...........
4.Touhy
5.O'Connell
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.McGrath
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.Fitzgerald
13.Bowe
14.Conway
15.Kearney

We've got nothing to lose

dougieruggie wrote: »

No I didn't.

Looks to me like your saying start now, we've got nothing to lose by putting them into a starting Ireland XV

dougieruggie

its_phil wrote: »

Looks to me like your saying start now, we've got nothing to lose by putting them into a starting Ireland XV

Lets start developing them now. Not saying throw them in if there was a game tomorrow. Thats my eventual team