Bus driver banned for going too slow?

Going Forward

Did anyone else hear Noel Brett with Matt Cooper today (16/3/12) mentioning a case where a bus driver lost his license after being pulled up for going too slowly? Seems quite harsh IMO.

He referred to it in response to a texter complaining of being currently stuck behind a caravan somewhere. No mention of the fact that the driver shouldnt have been texting.

Joko

You will fail your driving test for not keeping up with traffic.

Going Forward

Joko wrote: »

You will fail your driving test for not keeping up with traffic.

No kidding?

foggy_lad

Going Forward wrote: »

No kidding?

It is called a failure to proceed or progress afaik and will fail you in the test.

coylemj

Going Forward wrote: »

No kidding?

No, it's a box on the examiner's sheet called something like 'failing to make sufficient progress'. While there is no minimum speed limit for driving a car, you can fail the test if you drive too slow.

UnknownSpecies

I failed my full license test for progress on the straight

Going Forward

coylemj wrote: »

No, it's a box on the examiner's sheet called something like 'failing to make sufficient progress'. While there is no minimum speed limit for driving a car, you can fail the test if you drive too slow.

I know all that, but I thought that the case he mentioned was a bit over the top, admittedly I dont know the full circumstances, but it seems the driver was penalised for driving a bus carefully.

My thoughts on hearing it were that some other defect must have caused the ban, such as no DOE, serious fault with the vehicle etc...

coylemj

I can't imagine how you could lose your licence for going too slow because there isn't any offence under the RTA which relates to going too slow. He might have been sacked from a job with a bus company because there is obviously a requirement to get passengers from A to B at a reasonably fast rate and then turn the bus around for the return trip so if you drove too slowly it would eventually be grounds for dismissal.

Itsdacraic

I regularly encounter a bus on my commute that travels at 60km/ph. It holds up a huge line of traffic and ends up with people getting impatient and trying crazy over taking manouveres

Going Forward

coylemj wrote: »

I can't imagine how you could lose your licence for going too slow because there isn't any offence under the RTA which relates to going too slow. He might have been sacked from a job with a bus company because there is obviously a requirement to get passengers from A to B at a reasonably fast rate and then turn the bus around for the return trip so if you drove too slowly it would eventually be grounds for dismissal.

This was a motoring offence case as Noel Brett mentioned a Garda pulling up the driver, and the driver being banned!

Odd?

Its in this section, close to the start- http://media.todayfm.com/listenback/98/friday/1/popup

foggy_lad

Itsdacraic wrote: »

I regularly encounter a bus on my commute that travels at 60km/ph. It holds up a huge line of traffic and ends up with people getting impatient and trying crazy over taking manouveres

Is it some auld fella driving that thinks he's doing 60mph?

Del2005

Going Forward wrote: »

but it seems the driver was penalised for driving a bus carefully.

Your falling for the RSA "Speed Kills" BS. Just because someone is driving slowly doesn't mean they are driving carefully.

My father drives slowly but he's a dangerous driver.

doomed

Very slow drivers can be danerous. Its almos like parking in the middle of the road. You become an obstacle and everyone has to get around you which can be hazardous.

slimjimmc

Going Forward wrote: »

Did anyone else hear Noel Brett with Matt Cooper today (16/3/12) mentioning a case where a bus driver lost his license after being pulled up for going too slowly? Seems quite harsh IMO.

He referred to it in response to a texter complaining of being currently stuck behind a caravan somewhere. No mention of the fact that the driver shouldnt have been texting.

I believe Noel Brett may have been referring to the famous case in 2009 of the Mayo farmer who was summoned for failing to pay an on-the-spot fine and was also summoned for not driving with reasonable consideration for other road users as he refused to pull in on his his way home from the mart.
The 12 month ban only applied to his driving a tractor.

He was a part-time bus driver who received a safety award from Bus Éireann, so that's where the bus driver reference come from imo.



http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6475&Itemid=38

Going Forward

Del2005 wrote: »

Your falling for the RSA "Speed Kills" BS. Just because someone is driving slowly doesn't mean they are driving carefully.

My father drives slowly but he's a dangerous driver.

So you how do know the guy driving the bus is a careless/dangerous
driver and at the same time you have no knowledge of the case mentioned?

You are jumping to conclusions.

Going Forward

slimjimmc wrote: »

I believe Noel Brett may have been referring to the famous case in 2009 of the Mayo farmer who was summoned for failing to pay an on-the-spot fine and was also summoned for not driving with reasonable consideration for other road users as he refused to pull in on his his way home from the mart.
The 12 month ban only applied to his driving a tractor.

He was a part-time bus driver who received a safety award from Bus Éireann, so that's where the bus driver reference come from imo.



http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6475&Itemid=38

Thanks, maybe thats it, NBretts recall of it may have been imperfect.

Del2005

Going Forward wrote: »

So you how do know the guy driving the bus is a careless/dangerous
driver and at the same time you have no knowledge of the case mentioned?

You are jumping to conclusions.

It was in reply to the poster I quoted saying they driver was penalised for driving safely when according to the OP they where done for driving slow.

I was pointing out that driving slowly isn't always driving safely, no mater what the RSA say.

Hilly Bill

Joko wrote: »

You will fail your driving test for not keeping up with traffic.

No you wont, its not a race.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is called a failure to proceed or progress afaik and will fail you in the test.

Thats called being at a stop Fair enough if you are only crawling forward but you dont have to go at the speed of the other cars and keep up with them.

rainbowtrout

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No you wont, its not a race.

Yes you will, I was failed on my driving test for driving too slowly. I was driving down the main street in Carrick on Shannon, the road is one way and there is only one lane for driving, speed limit was 30 mph. I was driving at 22/23 mph, it's damn near impossible to drive on that street at 30 on a normal day , between the narrow space available for driving, traffic and pedestrians crossing all the time. Anyway I was failed for driving too slow, so yes it is possible.

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No you wont, its not a race.

Yes you will. If you've actually DONE a driving test you should be aware of the category of mark-downs for "failure to make progress".

Driving too slowly and dawdling at non-controlled junctions waiting for huge gaps are what you get marked down for on this.

Mycroft H

MYOB wrote: »

Yes you will. If you've actually DONE a driving test you should be aware of the category of mark-downs for "failure to make progress".

Driving too slowly and dawdling at non-controlled junctions waiting for huge gaps are what you get marked down for on this.

If everyone else is doing 60km/h in a 50km/h zone and you decide to keep up with traffic, of course your going to loose marks on your test. Its a fine line.

Hilly Bill

MYOB wrote: »

Yes you will. If you've actually DONE a driving test you should be aware of the category of mark-downs for "failure to make progress".

Driving too slowly and dawdling at non-controlled junctions waiting for huge gaps are what you get marked down for on this.

Passed first time over 20 years ago . I agree with what you are saying in them scenarios but if you get failed for not matching the speed of the other cars or driving at the max speed limit then a question should be asked of the examiner .

Hilly Bill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes you will, I was failed on my driving test for driving too slowly. I was driving down the main street in Carrick on Shannon, the road is one way and there is only one lane for driving, speed limit was 30 mph. I was driving at 22/23 mph, it's damn near impossible to drive on that street at 30 on a normal day , between the narrow space available for driving, traffic and pedestrians crossing all the time. Anyway I was failed for driving too slow, so yes it is possible.

The speed limit is the max that you can drive at not the required driving speed .
If you got failed for driving at that speed in that condition then you were hard done by as you drive to the conditions of the road not to the max speed limit. Driving too slow on that road would be going around 5/10 mph with the road being clear of other vehicles and pedestrians .

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Passed first time over 20 years ago . I agree with what you are saying in them scenarios but if you get failed for not matching the speed of the other cars or driving at the max speed limit then a question should be asked of the examiner .

You are failed for a lack of competence leading to you being too nervous to drive at a similar speed to other road users who are driving within the speed limits and obeying the rules of the road and all applicable traffic laws!

we have all encountered the drivers on the motorway on-ramps who actually slow down on the slip road looking for a gap so they can join the motorway, or people who's driving causes issues to others because they slow down when they should logically be speeding up or drive very slowly when there is no reason for it!

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

You are failed for a lack of competence leading to you being too nervous to drive at a similar speed to other road users who are driving within the speed limits and obeying the rules of the road and all applicable traffic laws!

we have all encountered the drivers on the motorway on-ramps who actually slow down on the slip road looking for a gap so they can join the motorway, or people who's driving causes issues to others because they slow down when they should logically be speeding up or drive very slowly when there is no reason for it!

You are suppose to drive at you own pace ( within reason ) and not the other cars. Just because a car may be tailgating you it doesnt mean you should go faster or you should catch up with the car in front.
As for cars slowing down on the on- ramps, should they just continue on and just hope someone will make room for them or is it best to adjust your speed to filter in safely? In your opinion Foggy it seems they shouldnt adjust their speed at all but just go for it and hope for the best.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You are suppose to drive at you own pace ( within reason ) and not the other cars. Just because a car may be tailgating you it doesnt mean you should go faster or you should catch up with the car in front.
As for cars slowing down on the on- ramps, should they just continue on and just hope someone will make room for them or is it best to adjust your speed to filter in safely? In your opinion Foggy it seems they shouldnt adjust their speed at all but just go for it and hope for the best.

You are supposed to drive at your own pace of course but also not to cause undue interference to other road users as this would constitute a lack of consideration.

If you are pulling onto a motorway or carriageway where traffic is travelling at 50-60mph you are failing to progress if you don't try to match the speed of the traffic before getting to the end of the feeder lane. To try to filter into a lane of faster moving traffic when you have not reached the same speed even though you have been afforded adequate time and space to reach a safe speed is just dangerous and a lack of consideration for other road users as you will force many of them to brake violently to avoid collision with your vehicle.

If a driver doesn't have the competence to negotiate such junctions or drive at a reasonable speed like other road users are capable of then maybe they should question their need to be driving at all.

In my opinion they should match the speed of the traffic they are joining before they reach the end of the feeder lane or slip road and if a driver finds they are unable to do this on a regular basis they should consider surrendering their license.

Hilly Bill

Agreed
Its all down to driving to the conditions of the road be it in a built up area or the motorway or a main road . I saw a driving instructor the other day making the learner drive in a bus lane just because the learner was going slowish, which wont help the learner come the test.
There is driving slow for a reason and then there is driving slow for no other reason than a lack of confidence which i agree should be a fail on the test but i still think that rainbowtrout was hard done by in his scenario unless there was more to it than the speed.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Agreed
Its all down to driving to the conditions of the road be it in a built up area or the motorway or a main road . I saw a driving instructor the other day making the learner drive in a bus lane just because the learner was going slowish, which wont help the learner come the test.
There is driving slow for a reason and then there is driving slow for no other reason than a lack of confidence which i agree should be a fail on the test but i still think that rainbowtrout was hard done by in his scenario unless there was more to it than the speed.

Not having been in Carrick on shannon on the day one will never know the circumstances behind the situation rainbowtrout described but it may have happened because the tester felt opportunities existed to pass parked vehicles more quickly than happened or possible that traffic lights showing green signals were passed too slowly? It could also have been a driving tester who viewed things differently to many others who may have passed rainbowtrout on the day, There appears to be a lot of inconsistency in testing centres wen it comes to people passing, some testers fail far more than others while some testing centres fail far less than others.

I know myself that Naas used to have some of the hardest test routes in the country because all the road markings through the town were old and almost worn away but if you were not in the correct lane you would lose points or fail, this could have been a contributing reason for rainbowtrout's test failure in Carrick on Shannon.

Carawaystick

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you are pulling onto a motorway or carriageway where traffic is travelling at 50-60mph you are failing to progress if you don't try to match the speed of the traffic before getting to the end of the feeder lane. To try to filter into a lane of faster moving traffic when you have not reached the same speed even though you have been afforded adequate time and space to reach a safe speed is just dangerous and a lack of consideration for other road users as you will force many of them to brake violently to avoid collision with your vehicle.

If a driver doesn't have the competence to negotiate such junctions or drive at a reasonable speed like other road users are capable of then maybe they should question their need to be driving at all.

In my opinion they should match the speed of the traffic they are joining before they reach the end of the feeder lane or slip road and if a driver finds they are unable to do this on a regular basis they should consider surrendering their license.

What if they are driving something that has a lower speed limit than the traffic? Like a bus limited to 65 in a 120

foggy_lad

Carawaystick wrote: »

What if they are driving something that has a lower speed limit than the traffic? Like a bus limited to 65 in a 120

Obviously this is going to be covered by the driver driving within the law and rules of the road.

rainbowtrout

foggy_lad wrote: »

Not having been in Carrick on shannon on the day one will never know the circumstances behind the situation rainbowtrout described but it may have happened because the tester felt opportunities existed to pass parked vehicles more quickly than happened or possible that traffic lights showing green signals were passed too slowly? It could also have been a driving tester who viewed things differently to many others who may have passed rainbowtrout on the day, There appears to be a lot of inconsistency in testing centres wen it comes to people passing, some testers fail far more than others while some testing centres fail far less than others.

I know myself that Naas used to have some of the hardest test routes in the country because all the road markings through the town were old and almost worn away but if you were not in the correct lane you would lose points or fail, this could have been a contributing reason for rainbowtrout's test failure in Carrick on Shannon.

Carrick doesn't have any traffic lights, one pedestrian crossing went in a couple of years ago, but that was long after my test.

It was a long time ago now so it's not like it matters, but there is very little room for manouevre on that street if you look at the link I posted above, but what happened before the test may have coloured the driving instructors view of me.

I was living in Limerick but was in the process of moving to Roscommon. Didn't know where I was going to be living because I hadn't got accommodation sorted yet for a new job, but I knew that the closest test centre to the town I was going to be living in was Carrick, so I put down my Limk address for correspondance.

Anyway when I went into the test centre, the tester questioned me on it as in 'Why did you put down Carrick if you live in Limerick?' Fair question I suppose, but not really any of her business. I explained my situation.

Anyway when I got back to the centre after my test and questioned the 'failure to make progress' on my sheet, she said 'You were doing 22-23 mph in a 30 zone ..... you wouldn't do that in Limerick now would you'....:mad:

I'm still living in the Carrick area and I don't think I've ever been able to get above 30 mph on that road due to the layout except late at night, when there are no pedestrians, no traffic, no cars parked.

Anyway did my test again about 6 months later in Carrick - got a different tester and had no faults. Nothing radically changed about my driving.

foggy_lad

It really is down to the mood of the tester on the day whether people pass or fail.

Capt'n Midnight

Point of information

It's quite legal to drive on the motorway at 51Kmph with a 51cc bike or three wheeler

Same way it's legal for a 16 year old with a W license to use a large tractor to pull a trailer with a forty foot container on it on other roads


It's a good chance that there was a hard shoulder near where this incident took place. Had the NRA used paint to turn good quality hard shoulders into extra lanes or had we a law where a motorist has to pull in if they are blocking more than five other motorists would this have happened ?


The main problem is that a significant number of Irish drivers are inconsiderate or unaware or both

Capt'n Midnight

foggy_lad wrote: »

It really is down to the mood of the tester on the day whether people pass or fail.

It also varies according to which center you do it in , and who runs the centers.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Driving-Test-Centre/Pass-Rates/

Pass rates vary betwwen Carlow 35.96% and Sligo 66.94%

In Carlow only one in three pass, in Sligo only one in three fail.

I'd love to hear the reasons for this huge difference !

might be interesting to plot on a contour map / add in previous years too

corktina

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Point of information

It's quite legal to drive on the motorway at 51Kmph with a 51cc bike or three wheeler

Same way it's legal for a 16 year old with a W license to use a large tractor to pull a trailer with a forty foot container on it on other roads


It's a good chance that there was a hard shoulder near where this incident took place. Had the NRA used paint to turn good quality hard shoulders into extra lanes or had we a law where a motorist has to pull in if they are blocking more than five other motorists would this have happened ?


The main problem is that a significant number of Irish drivers are inconsiderate or unaware or both

it's quite legal also to drive a vehcile capable of doing more than 50k at LESS than 50k. (stupid but legal)

Losty Dublin

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It also varies according to which center you do it in , and who runs the centers.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Driving-Test-Centre/Pass-Rates/

Pass rates vary betwwen Carlow 35.96% and Sligo 66.94%

In Carlow only one in three pass, in Sligo only one in three fail.

I'd love to hear the reasons for this huge difference !

Look closer at the pass rates around the east and midlands. They are overall far lower in Leinster than in the west, south and north of the country. It may say more about poor driver habits amongst younger people, local road conditions that may lead to a higher failure rate, a lack of ADIR instructors in these areas or some other factors. The test is a standardised test with set skill sets to be marked upon; there must be other factors at play here to make such a difference.

rainbowtrout

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Look closer at the pass rates around the east and midlands. They are overall far lower in Leinster than in the west, south and north of the country. It may say more about poor driver habits amongst younger people, local road conditions that may lead to a higher failure rate, a lack of ADIR instructors in these areas or some other factors. The test is a standardised test with set skill sets to be marked upon; there must be other factors at play here to make such a difference.

Well it is and it isn't. A person can be failed on a mistake they make on a roundabout or set of traffic lights in a large town, but if they don't exist in a rural testing area they can't be failed (or tested on them). So they are not being tested in exactly the same way.

Again a driver could fail on incorrect usage of lanes in a large town but perhaps not in a small one.

I still find it amusing that it is possible to pass a driving test (in Carrick) without every possibly having encountered a set of traffic lights.

Also places like Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo etc provide similar driving conditions to those found in Dublin, so there shouldn't be a huge difference in pass rates.

opinion guy

Driving slowly does not equal driving safely.
The safest driving conditions for everyone are when everyone is driving at pretty much the same speed.

Carawaystick wrote: »

What if they are driving something that has a lower speed limit than the traffic? Like a bus limited to 65 in a 120

Is this s hyopthetical or are buses limited to 65 ???

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Point of information

It's quite legal to drive on the motorway at 51Kmph with a 51cc bike or three wheeler

Not necessarily. There is the offence of dangerous driving. If you were doing 51kph on motorway on a three wheeler and the Guards decided it was dangerous for other motorist they could pull you and prosecute you regardless the rules for going onto the motorway.

Stark

opinion guy wrote: »

Is this s hyopthetical or are buses limited to 65 ???

Buses with standing passengers (ie: city buses) are limited to 65. Buses with seated passengers are limited to 80 on single carriageway roads and 100 on dual carriageways.

Stark

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You are suppose to drive at you own pace ( within reason ) and not the other cars.

If your own pace is about half of everyone else's pace then you're not a competent driver and have no business being on the road. The sooner they enforce this with mandatory retests, the better.

Losty Dublin

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well it is and it isn't. A person can be failed on a mistake they make on a roundabout or set of traffic lights in a large town, but if they don't exist in a rural testing area they can't be failed (or tested on them). So they are not being tested in exactly the same way.

Again a driver could fail on incorrect usage of lanes in a large town but perhaps not in a small one.

I still find it amusing that it is possible to pass a driving test (in Carrick) without every possibly having encountered a set of traffic lights.

Also places like Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo etc provide similar driving conditions to those found in Dublin, so there shouldn't be a huge difference in pass rates.

Fair point though in essence there is no such thing as a rural or urban test per se.

rainbowtrout

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Fair point though in essence there is no such thing as a rural or urban test per se.

No, I know that, but tests should be standard regardless of what part of the country they are in urban or rural.

L1011

Stark wrote: »

Buses with standing passengers (ie: city buses) are limited to 65. Buses with seated passengers are limited to 80 on single carriageway roads and 100 on dual carriageways.

There's very few cases of city buses on 120's - one 66X a morning and possibly some along the M11 come to mind, 88N maybe also.

Hilly Bill

Stark wrote: »

If your own pace is about half of everyone else's pace then you're not a competent driver and have no business being on the road. The sooner they enforce this with mandatory retests, the better.

Are you for real ? Why should i have to drive at your pace? If the other cars are breaking the speed limit, should i? Im talking about own pace which is within the speed limit. If im driving within the speed limit and you drive up to my bumper should i then speed up? NO, as thats just dangerous.


What if i was driving a hearse?

Has anyone got a link to the case in question?

Stark

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What if i was driving a hearse?

:rolleyes:

I'm guessing from your posts that you're one of those people who enjoys crawling around holding people up so there's no point in arguing with you.

Going Forward

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you for real ? Why should i have to drive at your pace? If the other cars are breaking the speed limit, should i? Im talking about own pace which is within the speed limit. If im driving within the speed limit and you drive up to my bumper should i then speed up? NO, as thats just dangerous.


What if i was driving a hearse?

Has anyone got a link to the case in question?

Noel brett was talking through his arts, the case doesnt exist.
A similar but more legitimate case does exist, different vehicle though.

Worth listening to the podcast as he also shys away from enforcing any laws on pedestrians who like to wear black clothes whilst walking on the roads at night!

opinion guy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you for real ? Why should i have to drive at your pace? If the other cars are breaking the speed limit, should i? Im talking about own pace which is within the speed limit. If im driving within the speed limit and you drive up to my bumper should i then speed up? NO, as thats just dangerous.


What if i was driving a hearse?

Has anyone got a link to the case in question?

If you are driving significantly lower than the legal limit you are putting others at risk. Its just that simple. You create more turbulence in the traffic flow. Its dangerous for everyone - including you.

Hilly Bill

Stark wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I'm guessing from your posts that you're one of those people who enjoys crawling around holding people up so there's no point in arguing with you.

Na, far from it . I'm guessing from your posts that you are one of those speed merchants that tailgate and break red light .

Hilly Bill

opinion guy wrote: »

If you are driving significantly lower than the legal limit you are putting others at risk. Its just that simple. You create more turbulence in the traffic flow. Its dangerous for everyone - including you.

There isnt a lower limit but common sense should prevail. Now the limit on the quays prevents you going any slower as that would be stopping.

What is significantly lower than the legal limit?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There isnt a lower limit but common sense should prevail. Now the limit on the quays prevents you going any slower as that would be stopping.

What is significantly lower than the legal limit?

Common sense SHOULD prevail but I have seen drivers on the motorway slowing right down to 20-30kph when they see the advance signs for their exit which are about a kilometre from the exit. It was always my understanding that you only slowed down when you move onto the off-ramp/slip road.

Some people don't have enough common sense or are too unwell to allow them drive safely so they should let someone else drive them around!