Reclassification of roads (28 February 2012)

etchyed

As we've gradually been discovering in the N40 Cork South Ring thread, the Minister for Transport issued two ministerial orders on the 28th of February, reclassifying a number of roads. I think this warrants its own thread.

For reference
National Roads
Regional Roads

Changes spotted so far:

• N25 reclassified as N40 from junction with N22 to Jack Lynch Tunnel
• N1, N2, N3, N4 and N81 detrunked within M50 and reclassified as regional roads
• N11 also reclassified regional from the city centre to its junction with the N31
• N32 detrunked, reclassified regional

Credit to munchkin_utd, MYOB and csd for discovering most of this.

I'm sure there's some more stuff in there yet to be found.

etchyed

• N32 is now R139
• N81 (inside M50) is now R137
• N11 (City Centre to junction with N31 Mount Merrion Avenue) is now R138

N1, N2, N3, N4 (inside M50) now use the same R numbers as bypassed former sections of their routes outside the M50 (i.e. R132, R135, R147, R148 respectively)

Jayuu

If the N32 no longer exists, then what is the section between Clonshaugh Road and the M50 roundabout designated as? It seems to be one of those grey areas.

I know on OpenStreetMap and Google maps this section of road and the M50 roundabout are shown as the N32 but this was always incorrect in my opinion because the NRA maps always showed the main roundabout and the link to Bewley's roundabout as motorway. The OSI interactive map matches the NRA map but neither has a desingnation for this section.

That being said the listing of the R139 under Regional Roads has in brackets "Part of old N32 route" which would seem to indicate that there still is some section of it in existence although there is no N32 listed under National Roads.

L1011

Since the junction was redesigned, the top of the roundabout is not realistically a motorway mainline at all.

Anyway, there's no legal impediment to any road being M-classified in part in Ireland, you could have a M10000 motorway classified local road

munchkin_utd

despite what most maps and EVEN county council tendering documents state, the N80 does NOT run north of Tullamore towards Clara and is confirmed in the new roads classification (I think this was the case in the old documents but here it is reiterated)

The old N80 north of Tullamore is now an extension of the R420 which starts at the old N7 south of Monasterevin through Portarlington to Tullamore.

And onto a related road, well one that also goes through Tullamore!!
The N52 is now shorter!!!
It begins at Ardee rather than Dundalk before going on its wander across the land (the M1 and link road to Ardee being its replacement to get from Dundalk).
The stretch of "old N52" is now not even a regional road.

Jayuu

MYOB wrote: »

Since the junction was redesigned, the top of the roundabout is not realistically a motorway mainline at all.

Anyway, there's no legal impediment to any road being M-classified in part in Ireland, you could have a M10000 motorway classified local road

I understand that, but its shown as motorway on all the official maps so I always wonder about its designation. To be honest that whole area is a bit of a mess from a designation point of view since the upgrade.

Even the EXIT sign when you come to the roundabout from the M50 Northbound is wrong because it shows the flyover as the exit as opposed to the section that continues to the roundabout. I'm sure a lot of people get confused by that.

I'm wondering if all the signage here that has N32 on it will now replaced. There's quite a lot of it if you consider the M50 and M1 signage all have N32 signage on the approach and the N32 is painted on the road as you approach from Belfast.

Irish and Proud

munchkin_utd wrote: »

<snip>
And onto a related road, well one that also goes through Tullamore!!
The N52 is now shorter!!!
It begins at Ardee rather than Dundalk before going on its wander across the land (the M1 and link road to Ardee being its replacement to get from Dundalk).
The stretch of "old N52" is now not even a regional road.

I noticed the cull regarding that stretch of the N52 - what's really funny is that there's AFAIK, a fairly substantial realignment taking place on the stretch at Mapastown! To confirm it's between Ardee and Dundalk, here's the Location Map! I remember listing a notice regarding the scheme a while back on the 'Tender Watch for Roads' thread.

Regards!

munchkin_utd

ok, not sure if its really relevant to this thread but it is noticable how far out the google maps(aka teleatlas) are from reality and not just in not keeping track of redesignation of old national primary and secondary roads.

In cities like cork theres just sections of roads classified as regional by law marked on the map as not classified at all.
i.e. here the missing 2.7km off the beginning of the R608 from Cork City Centre to Ballincollig via Model farm road.
I could probably pull a whole load of other examples if I could be bothered.

On the face of it that is nothing serious.
But in practical terms its a less than positive ommission as your sat nav uses road classification as a primary category of how it works out your route.
This will become VERY VERY aparant to anyone who has tried to drive in Cork city centre where your sat nav wants to bring you on a wild goose chase over and back across the river in an attempt to stay on National and Regional classified road rathen than bring you straight the few 100m down the quays!!

loyatemu

notice that the R999, the over-engineered port access route in Wicklow town is not listed - does this mean its short time as an R road is over?

SeanW

Detrunking the N52 between Ardee and Dundalk not a bad idea.
Likewise that ghost section of N80 Tullamore-Moate.
Likewise the N40 for Cork City, if the N25 is the main route from Cork to the East, then I guess it does make some sense to end the N25 at Dunkettle and have a new national road covering the South Ring.

But de-trunking all the main roads going into Dublin City ... what the F@#%???

mackerski

These changes, at least the ones highlighted here, have been updated on OpenStreetMap. Until all tiles re-render you might see some outdated content, but anybody spotting apparent errors, please shout.

Thanks for spotting this!

L1011

I wonder were some of the current N52 works pushed through in the knowledge that they couldn't be NRA funded after the end of February?

SeanW

Fairly sure the NRA now controls regional roads. It would be bizarre to downgrade this road to anything less than that.

L1011

SeanW wrote: »

Fairly sure the NRA now controls regional roads. It would be bizarre to downgrade this road to anything less than that.

They don't, yet anyway. R road funding is still councils own or council+DOT.

One of the biggest road projects that is actually definitely starting this year is a Kildare CC with DOT money job on the R402 for instance.

Sponge Bob

Still ambigous on the N62...it should not start in Fardrum ( which is where it branched off the old N6) but clearly at the Motorway in Creggan Lower.

Click and select Street Map on right!

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,607481,740627,5,7

Sponge Bob

etchyed wrote: »

As we've gradually been discovering in the N40 Cork South Ring thread, the Minister for Transport issued two ministerial orders on the 28th of February, reclassifying a number of roads. I think this warrants its own thread.

For reference
National Roads
Regional Roads

Thanks Etchyhed


The previous General Classification was in 2006.

National Roads (2006)
Regional Roads (2006)

Prior to 2006 the previous reclassification occured in 1994 after the Roads Act of 1993 was enacted.

National Roads 1994
Regional Roads 1994

HTH

etchyed

SeanW wrote: »

But de-trunking all the main roads going into Dublin City ... what the F@#%???

I presume this has something to do with who has responsibility for maintenance. Perhaps the Department of Transport has decided that it doesn't make sense to have the NRA responsible for the quays or O'Connell Street, for example.

From a navigational point of view, however, it makes no sense. It's a shame that road classification has to be so closely linked to whose control the road comes under.

I've always thought that the UK system was too complicated, with trunk roads and A roads not necessarily being the same thing. But now I see the sense in it. It should be possible for the roads to be detrunked (moving them from the NRA to county council hands) whilst keeping their N numbers and maintaining their status as national routes.

We now have a situation where dual carriageways that carry lots of traffic and are clearly of national importance are shown as minor R-roads on maps. It's ridiculous.

Chris_5339762

Its a shame that the N roads inside the M50 have been detrunked. They were really handy as a navigational aid.

etchyed

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Its a shame that the N roads inside the M50 have been detrunked. They were really handy as a navigational aid.

Ah, but you missed my point. It's not really a shame that they've been detrunked. What is a shame is that this detrunking unnecessarily causes an automatic renumbering to R-road.

marmurr1916

N82 gone - good, N87 stays - bad, N33 from Ardee to M1 should have been re-classified as part of the N52.

SeanW

etchyed wrote: »

I presume this has something to do with who has responsibility for maintenance. Perhaps the Department of Transport has decided that it doesn't make sense to have the NRA responsible for the quays or O'Connell Street, for example.

Yes perhaps, but the Chapelizod Bypass? It's a dual carriageway that has considerable national use - i.e. it's not a city street.

I used to live in Drumcondra and every weekend I would go down to the country (on the N4). While I might agree that the N1 detrunking in the city was not the worst idea (Drumcondra Road, Dorset St. etc are basically city streets and as for O'Connell St ... don't get me started). But for me it would always have been the case that I would go down the quays to pick up the N4, it becomes a dual carriageway there around Heuston and remains a dual carriageway in one form or another until just after Mullingar.

With the city (ex) N4 section being the main route not just for the Sligo/Longford road but also Galway and Westport roads plus the suggested route for drivers going to Cork, Limerick and Waterford (as opposed to going out the Naas Road) I am not going to be the only one with the view that the N4 was correctly labelled in the city as a National route.

You're also right about navigation - even if these are city streets, the N designations help with navigation. The whole thing is bizarre.

whyulittle

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Still ambigous on the N62...it should not start in Fardrum ( which is where it branched off the old N6) but clearly at the Motorway in Creggan Lower.

Click and select Street Map on right!

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,607481,740627,5,7

Odd that the R446 branches off in the town centre and goes a short stretch out the N55 Ballymahon Road.

JupiterKid

IMO the detrunking of the National primary routes within the M50 is a stupid move. Just because the M50 loosely defines Dublin doesn't mean that the radial N routes within the M50 are any less important.

The N87 serves no purpose any more and should have been detrunked. Same goes for the N83.

Irish and Proud

marmurr1916 wrote: »

N82 gone - good, N87 stays - bad, N33 from Ardee to M1 should have been re-classified as part of the N52.

...or reclassify the N52 as the N33 - it's basically the road from:

Belfast to Galway (via M6 from Tyrrellspass);
Belfast to Limerick (via M7 from Nenagh);
Belfast to Cork (via M7/N20 from Nenagh) - one alternative to M1/M50/M7/M8;
Belfast to Cork (via N62/M8 from Birr) - another alternative to M1/M50/M7/M8.

It might indeed be time to consider National Primary Status for this road!

icdg

SeanW wrote: »

Yes perhaps, but the Chapelizod Bypass? It's a dual carriageway that has considerable national use - i.e. it's not a city street.

I used to live in Drumcondra and every weekend I would go down to the country (on the N4). While I might agree that the N1 detrunking in the city was not the worst idea (Drumcondra Road, Dorset St. etc are basically city streets and as for O'Connell St ... don't get me started). But for me it would always have been the case that I would go down the quays to pick up the N4, it becomes a dual carriageway there around Heuston and remains a dual carriageway in one form or another until just after Mullingar.

With the city (ex) N4 section being the main route not just for the Sligo/Longford road but also Galway and Westport roads plus the suggested route for drivers going to Cork, Limerick and Waterford (as opposed to going out the Naas Road) I am not going to be the only one with the view that the N4 was correctly labelled in the city as a National route.

Yeah, it kinda undoes the work that was done in the early 1990s when the N7 was detrunked inside the M50 and N7 traffic signed to use the Chapelizod bypass. It also raises a huge question as regards how these new regional roads will be signed in Dublin city, as the normal R-road practice of simply signing the next primary destination (so signs on the Chapelizod that now should read "Sligo" - but in fact still read "The West and South" - would be signed "Palmerston" instead) would be very inappropriate for the main road out of the city to Cork and Limerick.

Carawaystick

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...or reclassify the N52 as the N33 - it's basically the road from:
.

It might indeed be time to consider National Primary Status for this road!

or reclassify the N33 as the N2

Irish and Proud

openstreetmap has been comprehensively updated to take account of the recent reclassification round - gone are the National Routes within the M50 Dublin Ring (except the N31 and part of the N11), the N32 (M50 to Malahide Road), the N52 from Ardee to Dundalk and the N71 within the N40 CSRR (yep, that's done as well)!

:):)

spacetweek

Really not thrilled about the detrunking inside the M50. Legally, we should create a possibility now of maintaining the route numbers there but making an exception regarding their control - they should be made national routes under the control of the Dublin city councils. Changes to O'Connell St, Dorset St., etc. would still stand.

In any case, it takes us a decade sometimes to update signage in Ireland, so I wouldn't anticipate any changes on the ground for some time That will give us time to make a compromise.

Jayuu

Irish and Proud wrote: »

openstreetmap has been comprehensively updated to take account of the recent reclassification round - gone are the National Routes within the M50 Dublin Ring (except the N31 and part of the N11), the N32 (M50 to Malahide Road), the N52 from Ardee to Dundalk and the N71 within the N40 CSRR (yep, that's done as well)!

:):)

Pity whoever did the change didn't correct the M50 to R139 and the roundabout. The document clearly states that the route begins at the "junction with M50 link road at Clonshaugh Road" so clearly the link road and the roundabout are not part of the R139.

mackerski

Jayuu wrote: »

Pity whoever did the change didn't correct the M50 to R139 and the roundabout. The document clearly states that the route begins at the "junction with M50 link road at Clonshaugh Road" so clearly the link road and the roundabout are not part of the R139.

It's an interesting point, but one that leaves us with a problem - how to classify the spur from the Bewley's roundabout to the M50 roundabout. In the past this was M32, since it led inescapably to a motorway and because the N32 still existed for it to be a part of.

Since the upgrade of the M50/M1 junction, all motorway to motorway movements bypass the roundabout. Presumably in recognition of this, there are now end of motorway signs as you approach the roundabout from the northern cross section of M50. It's hard to see how the spur could be considered to belong to a non-motorway section of N50 or N1. Nor can it belong to N32 which is no longer acknowledged in the SI text.

The intuitive thing here is to consider R139 as going all the way to the M50 roundabout. It would be tempting to consider this version to be a simple search and replace on the old N32 order, except that it too should have reached the big roundabout (and there were at least some signs that indicated this spur to be part of N32).

While it doesn't help us get to an unambiguous fact about this section, I will note that there are visible errors and inconsistencies in these documents. The most obvious concerns the R215. You will find this referred to in the text but nowhere is its own route defined (it's part of what used to be R132, formerly N1, through Dundalk).

So, better suggestions welcomed for what what number to assign to a road with no motorway regulations separating a regional road from the motorways on which it seems to want to terminate.

Jayuu

It is a tricky one all right but given that the document here seems so specific and that this was a road that was altered, one would think that some consideration was given with regard to the status of the spur.

Technically not all motorway-motorway movements bypass the roundabout. In fact all the previous motorway-motorway movements are still available so an argument can be made that the roundabout is still part of the motorway. Therefore the slip road would inescapably lead to a motorway so technically is still a motorway itself.

To be honest this whole section is a bit of a mess from a signage/designation issue which is probably why its never been cleared up properly. Even the exit sign when you approach the roundabout from the M50 points the wrong way.

spacetweek

I contacted Steve at Pathetic Motorways (which is a British site but has a section on the M32/N32 in Ireland) and asked him to remove the M32/N32. His response was interesting:

Thanks for that, but I have a feeling OSM is wrong. If you look at the SI, the N50 entry reads:
Dublin Ring Road
<snip>...TURNAPIN (and including link road to R139), BALLYMUN ...<snip>

The critical bit is the "and including link road to R139", which I think is a reference to the old M32. Someone basically needs to take a look!
Thanks,
Steven

Egads, he's right. The Bewleys to N32/M50/M1 roundabout link road is technically part of the N50. It's non-motorway though, as it does not lead inescapably to a motorway (you can do a U-turn and come back), but it's definitely not part of the R139. However, it's also not the N32 (as there is no entry for N32), so it must be a non-motorway segment of the M50!

If it was to have a name, it would be "M50 Link Road" or similar.

IrlJidel

spacetweek wrote: »

I contacted Steve at Pathetic Motorways (which is a British site but has a section on the M32/N32 in Ireland) and asked him to remove the M32/N32. His response was interesting:

Thanks for that, but I have a feeling OSM is wrong. If you look at the SI, the N50 entry reads:
Dublin Ring Road
<snip>...TURNAPIN (and including link road to R139), BALLYMUN ...<snip>

The critical bit is the "and including link road to R139", which I think is a reference to the old M32. Someone basically needs to take a look!
Thanks,
Steven

Egads, he's right. The Bewleys to N32/M50/M1 roundabout link road is technically part of the N50. It's non-motorway though, as it does not lead inescapably to a motorway (you can do a U-turn and come back), but it's definitely not part of the R139. However, it's also not the N32 (as there is no entry for N32), so it must be a non-motorway segment of the M50!

If it was to have a name, it would be "M50 Link Road" or similar.

So do we think the most correct thing to do is to update it in OSM as the N50?

spacetweek

IrlJidel wrote: »

So do we think the most correct thing to do is to update it in OSM as the N50?

No - unclassified, "M50 Link Road".

You can't mark it as N50 and in green because then there'd be three 50 routes - M50 west, M50 south, and N50 to Bewleys.

In the UK, this type of thing happens. When a link road is an integral part of the motorway, it is legally part of the motorway but not numbered or signed as such. They are named on maps as "Mxx Link" or similar.

MrDerp

As someone who moved to Dublin while still on L plates, I'm delighted to see the detrunking within the M50.

My sat Nav constantly tried to drag me along the quays, and generally made a bee-line for these major, yet usually congested routes. I had to quit the sat nav and take to pulling in and reading an A-Z when I was outside my comfort zone, if I wanted to make any kind of reasonable progress.

Now with R-road classifications for these routes, hopefully future visitors and new inhabitants of Dublin will be brought along the most sensible route instead.

If you think the N routes really assist in navigation around Dublin, try following the N11 signage from North Circular Road to Donnybrook church and tell me if that was the best way to go.

mackerski

spacetweek wrote: »

In the UK, this type of thing happens. When a link road is an integral part of the motorway, it is legally part of the motorway but not numbered or signed as such. They are named on maps as "Mxx Link" or similar.

I agree that it doesn't belong on the N/M50 mainline, but cases like you describe would be roads under motorway regulations, wouldn't they?

We could, based on what we're seeing here, concluded that it's an important local road (in OSM we call this tertiary, it renders in yellow), leaving a jarring gap in the path you would expect between the R139 and the motorways.

I still smell a clerical error, but I'd love to get to the bottom of this one.

SeanW

MrDerp wrote: »

If you think the N routes really assist in navigation around Dublin, try following the N11 signage from North Circular Road to Donnybrook church and tell me if that was the best way to go.

Try getting to Mullingar from said quays, or the Chapelizod Bypass for that matter - good luck when they put up R148 signs and sign the next (only) destination as Palmerston. In glorious "regional road" black on white.

etchyed

spacetweek wrote: »

Really not thrilled about the detrunking inside the M50. Legally, we should create a possibility now of maintaining the route numbers there but making an exception regarding their control - they should be made national routes under the control of the Dublin city councils. Changes to O'Connell St, Dorset St., etc. would still stand.

In any case, it takes us a decade sometimes to update signage in Ireland, so I wouldn't anticipate any changes on the ground for some time That will give us time to make a compromise.

BUMP!

Spotted some white signs today on the N3 inbound at its junction with the M50. The gantries approaching the junction still have green N3 signs, but new permanent signs have been erected, replacing these temporary ones on the sides of the overbridges as you drive through the junction. The destination is listed as CITY R147.

So it's started, and already it's pretty confusing, as the first few signs and the road markings still say N3. I wish I could be as optimistic as spacetweek that a compromise will be reached before this goes much further, but I'm not.

tomflynn

etchyed wrote: »

• N32 is now R139
• N81 (inside M50) is now R137
• N11 (City Centre to junction with N31 Mount Merrion Avenue) is now R138

N1, N2, N3, N4 (inside M50) now use the same R numbers as bypassed former sections of their routes outside the M50 (i.e. R132, R135, R147, R148 respectively)

Some Observations:

All old bypassed sections of Dublin inter-urban radial routes (N1, N2, N3, N4, N6, N7, N8 and N9) have a single continuous R number in parallel, and as noted above, where relevant those within the M50 retain the same R number aswell, even where this is discontinuous in places e.g. old N4 now R148-N4-R148 between city centre and McNeads Bridge (at Correllstown) [although OpenStreetMap and Google have yet to classify the last 8km as R148]

For some reason there is one exception, the N11/M11.

At newest motorway sections of the M11, the old N11 south of Bray is R772 (going northbound) from Gorey to Arklow and via Rathnew to Ashford. At Fassaroe interchange where M11 Bray/Shankill Bypass commences, along the old N11 we get the R918 for a mile, then R761 to Wilford Interchange, then R119 via Shankill (which proceeds to Killiney/Dalkey/Dun Laoghaire/Monkstown), then R837 to Loughlinstown Roundabout returning to N11. From there it is N11 until the junction with the N31 at Mount Merrion Avenue. The now detrunked old N11 north of this junction into the city centre turns into R138.

All this discontinuity seems very helpful for L drivers and tourists!

Incidentally, the OSI, although yet to detrunk the N11 north of the N31 junction has pre-empted the commencement of the M18; continuous 'virtual' M18.

ManAboutCouch

tomflynn wrote: »

... [although OpenStreetMap and Google have yet to classify the last 8km as R148]...

I've just reclassified that bit of road on OpenStreetMap (after confirming it with the Statute Book). Thanks for the heads-up.

vickers209

Just noticed Google maps has detrunked all roads into the city bar the n3 and n1 it was the first i seen or heard of this.

looks strange on a map seeing very few main roads

highdef

On the R139 (ex N32), I had heard before that bus lanes were not removed because to do so, they would have had to put in a hard shoulder (due to it being an N road) and thus be down a lane in each direction. Now that it is an R road, can the council finally remove the last bit of paint showing the non-functioning bus lane and make the road officially 2 regular lanes in each direction?

mackerski

highdef wrote: »

On the R139 (ex N32), I had heard before that bus lanes were not removed because to do so, they would have had to put in a hard shoulder (due to it being an N road) and thus be down a lane in each direction. Now that it is an R road, can the council finally remove the last bit of paint showing the non-functioning bus lane and make the road officially 2 regular lanes in each direction?

What's wrong with keeping them as lanes? Matt Talbot would be proud...

L1011

mackerski wrote: »

What's wrong with keeping them as lanes? Matt Talbot would be proud...

There's no bus services and they've been permanently open to all traffic for years.

Chris_5339762

highdef wrote: »

On the R139 (ex N32), I had heard before that bus lanes were not removed because to do so,they would have had to put in a hard shoulder (due to it being an N road) ?

Afraid thats tripe. You've been codded Plenty of N roads around with no hard shoulder.

mackerski

MYOB wrote: »

There's no bus services and they've been permanently open to all traffic for years.

Bus services are immaterial, since they haven't been bus lanes for years either. Today it's a 4-lane road. Why halve that?

L1011

mackerski wrote: »

Bus services are immaterial, since they haven't been bus lanes for years either. Today it's a 4-lane road. Why halve that?

Nobody is proposing that

mackerski

MYOB wrote: »

Nobody is proposing that

And indeed you're correct - I misread an earlier post.