Paramedics Need Stab Vests??

ambo112

Is it about time that Paramedics were issued with stab resistant vests? So far i have seen the UK ambulance services, Hospital security guards and local traffic wardens with stab vests!!

Anyone feel that it's about time ambulance staff received the same consideration and display of respect for our safety?

I have heard the argument that they are intimidating, will cause fights etc.... there are covert options under the shirt or a vest with yellow and green that would look similar.

What are your views? Is there support?

For those who don't agree - please don't become rude or aggressive, try support the staff who feel they need this protection!!!

audidiesel

i think they should absolutely have them. guards often get called to assist with ambulance crews who have violent people on board. why should the crews be put through the risk without having some sort of protection for themselves.

as to anyone saying they may be intimidating or not be in line with their image of the perfect world. if they had to experience the reality of dealing with junkies with needles or drunks with broken bottles they would probably change their minds pretty quickly.

they should have been introduced a long time ago, they arent perfect by any means but they do provide a basic level of protection. i dont think thats too much to ask for.

An Udaras

I think our frontline responding medical staff should be equipped with what at least will provide some protection to them as they often face dangerous situations be its drug abuser,mental health, drunks etc..

Don't forget stab vests our only part of PPE issued and of a conflict management system. These vests can also help deter effects of strikes/punches as it absorbs the force and power of the blow as well as obvious protection to knives,blades or points articles like syringes.

It should be a simple matter of examining the amount of occurrences that violence occurs to ambulance staff and also look at best international proactive such as the LAS or NHS etc..

Gardai & Airport Police both are issued them here but in the UK it is much more common for various agencies/private companies to issue their staff them.


http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/57/57529_ambulance_teams_to_test_stab_vests.html

47

Its getting to the stage that EMS personnel will need batons and pepper spray to defend themselves let alone stab vests from the scum they are trying to help.. Its a shame that the need for vests is upon us but EMS personnel dont deserve the **** they get. Hats off tour our EMS/firefighter and Gardai.

On the topic of stabvests/ppe I dont know if anyone has seen STT security on the Luas, Dart and Iarnrod Eirean trains. They are well tooled up apart from the fact they've no batons or captor spray which in my opinion they should, Anyway excuse my rant but they have top of the range stab vests. Hopefully something can be done to help protect our Paramedics.

ambo112

I am surprised that some have polled no without a reason.

I would appreciate views against also, but constructive and not just a simple no answer. Why would you prevent a paramedic from getting equipment they feel they need?

I am strongly against baton or spray suggestions, i don't feel that is right. Gardaì have the undesirable task of having to face violent people head on, Paramedics don't, we have the option to run from the danger and should always do so, a stab vest would be protection from a sudden - unexpected attack and would enable you to run from the danger uninjured!!

ambo112

Also, this issue has been discussed on several occasions but can anyone out there advise me on how to go about getting this issue more attention?

I am very new to the service and really feel unsafe on certain calls. Any advice would be great - thanks

Bang Bang

ambo112 wrote: »

I am very new to the service and really feel unsafe on certain calls. Any advice would be great - thanks

Call for back-up, seek Garda assistance, if the scene is unsafe don't enter it, if it becomes unsafe after you've entered, then withdraw.

I, along with many colleagues, have been assaulted over the years, from verbal to being spat on, punched, kicked, knocked to the ground, ambulance windows smashed, equipment damaged and a stab vest would have done nothing for any of those scenarios I've been faced with over the years.

What I will say that if any of the governments had an inkling of concern for anyone, not just ES workers, then they would ensure a stiff prison regime with some well advertised tough sentences/punishment as a deterrent. Then maybe the next time a person feels like assaulting a Paramedic or damaging the ambulance and equipment, they may just rethink their actions before they do any harm.

Medic475

Thankfully when I started working for the Ambulance Service in London I was issued with a stab vest along with uniform, gear etc. Its the norm over there. There is definitely a need for them especially when called to nighclubs and the likes!

cocoshovel

If a member was concerned for their own safety would they be allowed wear their own one as long as it matched the rest of the uniform? I cant see a problem with that

kub

Of course they should have them, the scum that EMTs have to deal with. I reckon that any risk assessment by a private H&S company would recommend it.

But then I suppose this being Ireland, we have to wait until someone is injured.

flazio

I'd probably get a 'You'd be surprised' sort of response to this, but I hardly think ambulance bases outside Limerick, Dublin or Cork would need personal protection gear from attacks from Joe public.
If they do get in stab vests, I wouldn't make the crews wear them 24/7, night shifts in city centres definitely, and calls to addresses known to be flare ups, (depends on the circumstances) I can hardly see an ambulance crew based out of Birr for example, needing stab vests.
Having said that I reckon all members of DFB, be they paramedics or fire crew should be issued with this protection.

ambo112

flazio wrote: »

I'd probably get a 'You'd be surprised' sort of response to this, but I hardly think ambulance bases outside Limerick, Dublin or Cork would need personal protection gear from attacks from Joe public.
If they do get in stab vests, I wouldn't make the crews wear them 24/7, night shifts in city centres definitely, and calls to addresses known to be flare ups, (depends on the circumstances) I can hardly see an ambulance crew based out of Birr for example, needing stab vests.
Having said that I reckon all members of DFB, be they paramedics or fire crew should be issued with this protection.

Good point, there wouldn't be as many incidents I'd imagine but the rare occasions; they would probably need to wait much longer for Garda support, especially with closure of rural stations.

I definitely agree that they should not be a 24/7 requirement but that common sense would be used like it is with the helmet.

Fire crews should absolutely have the same protection!

coach23

flazio wrote: »

I'd probably get a 'You'd be surprised' sort of response to this, but I hardly think ambulance bases outside Limerick, Dublin or Cork would need personal protection gear from attacks from Joe public.
If they do get in stab vests, I wouldn't make the crews wear them 24/7, night shifts in city centres definitely, and calls to addresses known to be flare ups, (depends on the circumstances) I can hardly see an ambulance crew based out of Birr for example, needing stab vests.
Having said that I reckon all members of DFB, be they paramedics or fire crew should be issued with this protection.

ambo112 wrote: »

Good point, there wouldn't be as many incidents I'd imagine but the rare occasions; they would probably need to wait much longer for Garda support, especially with closure of rural stations.

I definitely agree that they should not be a 24/7 requirement but that common sense would be used like it is with the helmet.

Fire crews should absolutely have the same protection!

Just because these places are quiet most of the time doesn't mean they are quiet all the time. I have been assaulted with knives/sharp objects inside a station at what one would consider normal times. Yime and place has nothing to do with it, its the personality your facing not a set calender.

I see some gardai going around without them sometimes in non city areas and i think, what if? thats why ye want the vest surely? for that what if situation? Id prefer to have it and never need it than need it and never have it.

ambo112

coach23 wrote: »

Just because these places are quiet most of the time doesn't mean they are quiet all the time. I have been assaulted with knives/sharp objects inside a station at what one would consider normal times. Yime and place has nothing to do with it, its the personality your facing not a set calender.

I see some gardai going around without them sometimes in non city areas and i think, what if? thats why ye want the vest surely? for that what if situation? Id prefer to have it and never need it than need it and never have it.

I agree. So far there seems to be more in favour of them, has anyone in NAS ever approached a union on this matter, my rep is strongly against it and has even insulted
Me for suggesting it, so he's not much help :-)

coach23

If your rep body wont help you do some research yourself on health and safety grounds and international best practice. Present this to senior management. When they shoot you down ask for a written explanation as to why challenge it in court.


welcome to bureaucracy:D

ambo112

coach23 wrote: »

If your rep body wont help you do some research yourself on health and safety grounds and international best practice. Present this to senior management. When they shoot you down ask for a written explanation as to why challenge it in court.


welcome to bureaucracy:D

I love the idea of being an idealist but that would never work, my career would end fairly quickly if i was to rock the boat like that

Zambia

I would say most Ambos would not wear them as they are not easy to work in or comfortable.

ambo112

Zambia wrote: »

I would say most Ambos would not wear them as they are not easy to work in or comfortable.

I'd agree with that but if they were left to the discretion of the crew at the time, it would avoid that I think.

Tango Alpha 51

Ambu,
This issue was fought by 2 paramedics, 1 based in Dublin, 1 in Limerick as a joint approach about 4 years ago. Both lads got into serious trouble with management. Allegedly senior management conducted risk assessments & deemed they weren't necessary. I would like one but can't see management agreeing to them

ambo112

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

Ambu,
This issue was fought by 2 paramedics, 1 based in Dublin, 1 in Limerick as a joint approach about 4 years ago. Both lads got into serious trouble with management. Allegedly senior management conducted risk assessments & deemed they weren't necessary. I would like one but can't see management agreeing to them

Do you know if anyone has ever approached the HSA, am I right in thinking that approaching them is anonymous?

Tango Alpha 51

Yes all avenues were explored including the HSA but it came to nothing

ambo112

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

Yes all avenues were explored including the HSA but it came to nothing

Thats a massive shame, did they offer a specific reason as to why?

Zambia

If a Ambo was really concerned could they buy their own covert one and just wear it?

ambo112

Zambia wrote: »

If a Ambo was really concerned could they buy their own covert one and just wear it?

I had asked that and I was told it would be frowned upon?? :-)

CB19Kevo

ambo112 wrote: »

I had asked that and I was told it would be frowned upon?? :-)

If you dont feel safe going on certain calls i believe you should wear protection once it is worn under the shirt.
Managment can look down on it all they want, Your safety has to come first.
Plus what they dont know wont harm them

Potential-Monke

Personally, I believe any emergency service who may be in a situation where they would be liable to attack should be issued PPE such as stab vests. However, i believe that the vest they would be supplied with be comfortable. The Garda one is horrible, uncomfortable and the shape warps too easily.

ambo112

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Personally, I believe any emergency service who may be in a situation where they would be liable to attack should be issued PPE such as stab vests. However, i believe that the vest they would be supplied with be comfortable. The Garda one is horrible, uncomfortable and the shape warps too easily.

Agreed, but I would love to understand managements resistance to it, I understand the cost but it's a once off purchase.

vidar

ambo112 wrote: »

I'd agree with that but if they were left to the discretion of the crew at the time, it would avoid that I think.

To be honest i think this is the worst thin g you could do, im with coach on this one, i see other members walking around thinking ill put it on when orif i need it and at that stage its too late.

Vest is another item of PPE, would you go near a pt without gloves on saying ah sure ill put them on if he starts to bleed?

ambo112

To be honest i think this is the worst thin g you could do, im with coach on this one, i see other members walking around thinking ill put it on when orif i need it and at that stage its too late.

Vest is another item of PPE, would you go near a pt without gloves on saying ah sure ill put them on if he starts to bleed?

I was thinking in terms of the helmet, we don't have to wear that all the time.

If it had to be all the time, I would be happy to do that but I would hate to think that that would be the main reason why others wouldn't support the idea of vests.

Hooch

ambo112 wrote: »

I was thinking in terms of the helmet, we don't have to wear that all the time.

You don't because circumstances don't require it. You wear your helmet at RTCs so you don't bang it off the roof or a sharp edge etc etc.......you don't need it at an 80 yr old woman's house. You can plan when you need to wear it, circumstances dictate it.

You can't dictate when you need to prevent your body being penetrated by a sharp object being welded by a mad man.

ambo112

Hooch wrote: »

You don't because circumstances don't require it. You wear your helmet at RTCs so you don't bang it off the roof or a sharp edge etc etc.......you don't need it at an 80 yr old woman's house. You can plan when you need to wear it, circumstances dictate it.

You can't dictate when you need to prevent your body being penetrated by a sharp object being welded by a mad man.

Would that be the main factor as to why there is resistance towards the idea of stab vests do you think? Because they may have to be worn all the time?

Also, what do people think about that - would it be so bad?

Hooch

ambo112 wrote: »

Would that be the main factor as to why there is resistance towards the idea of stab vests do you think? Because they may have to be worn all the time?

Also, what do people think about that - would it be so bad?

As Vidar said....it would have to be all or nothing. You never know when these things happen. Case in point the Garda in TC in Cork who was dragged out of the jeep at knife point last year.

How can you tell which incident needs a vest??

"Woah hold on there Knife wielding maniac, I need to don my stab vest before you stab me. Must run over to that ambulance there to put it on.......O wait who has the keys of the locker??"

ambo112

Hooch wrote: »

As Vidar said....it would have to be all or nothing. You never know when these things happen. Case in point the Garda in TC in Cork who was dragged out of the jeep at knife point last year.

How can you tell which incident needs a vest??

"Woah hold on there Knife wielding maniac, I need to don my stab vest before you stab me. Must run over to that ambulance there to put it on.......O wait who has the keys of the locker??"

Ha ha ha, point taken, Well, again, if they had to be a 24/7 issue would that be the end of the world? A lot of the newer vests are very flexible and thin and could be used covertly under a shirt to keep the same image.

Hooch

ambo112 wrote: »

Ha ha ha, point taken, Well, again, if they had to be a 24/7 issue would that be the end of the world? A lot of the newer vests are very flexible and thin and could be used covertly under a shirt to keep the same image.

There are some great stab vests out there but it all comes down to size. Ours aren't very comfortable but they do the job. Would like lighter/thinner ones that are more practical......but as I say.....they do what they are supposed to

ambo112

Does anyone know if there was any effort made in the Fire and Rescue Service to try get stab vests either the DFB or other areas?

ambo112

Heard that we are due to get new uniforms from the same company that supplies the Gardaì, wonder if stab vest is part of it?

ambo112

I was told that NASRA were looking at the issue of vests - anyone heard the same?

meathstevie

Just on a sideline; when as ambulance personel you get to cope with an unacceptable level of aggression can you not just abandon the call/patient as he/she violently refused treatment ?

Take the example of a violent drunk with a burst eyebrow or a broken nose looking for a fight with emt's. Just walk away and leave him/her to it, his/her actions speak for themselves as in a clear refusal of treatment.

Not all situations are the same and exceptions will have to be made for the likes of mental health issues etc etc but ultimately you have to think about number one first.

ambo112

meathstevie wrote: »

Just on a sideline; when as ambulance personel you get to cope with an unacceptable level of aggression can you not just abandon the call/patient as he/she violently refused treatment ?

Take the example of a violent drunk with a burst eyebrow or a broken nose looking for a fight with emt's. Just walk away and leave him/her to it, his/her actions speak for themselves as in a clear refusal of treatment.

Not all situations are the same and exceptions will have to be made for the likes of mental health issues etc etc but ultimately you have to think about number one first.

I agree, we are able to; and should leave the situation but the vest would be used to protect us against a sudden burst of violence that cannot be expected, this is where most ambulance staff injuries occur, any other time we would just retreat from the scene immediately.

jumpguy

Hooch wrote: »

As Vidar said....it would have to be all or nothing. You never know when these things happen. Case in point the Garda in TC in Cork who was dragged out of the jeep at knife point last year.

How can you tell which incident needs a vest??

"Woah hold on there Knife wielding maniac, I need to don my stab vest before you stab me. Must run over to that ambulance there to put it on.......O wait who has the keys of the locker??"

Ignoring the hyperbole, I don't see what is wrong if vests were available to paramedics and can be used at their discretion. I don't think it's an all or nothing situation. Everyone has a bit of common sense, you will probably know the call-outs when you're most likely to be assaulted. That would be for example going to a rough part of the town/city or going to some drunken idiot-fest somewhere.

Yes, there may be one or two exceptional occasions that one wouldn't expect to need stab vests at when they actually do, but they'd surely be in the minority and hence stab-vests-at-discretion could only do more good than harm. Even if stabbing is not at a high rate in the ambulance service, assault is and having vests would only add to the peace of mind of paramedics.

ambo112

jumpguy wrote: »

Hooch wrote: »

As Vidar said....it would have to be all or nothing. You never know when these things happen. Case in point the Garda in TC in Cork who was dragged out of the jeep at knife point last year.

How can you tell which incident needs a vest??

"Woah hold on there Knife wielding maniac, I need to don my stab vest before you stab me. Must run over to that ambulance there to put it on.......O wait who has the keys of the locker??"

Ignoring the hyperbole, I don't see what is wrong if vests were available to paramedics and can be used at their discretion. I don't think it's an all or nothing situation. Everyone has a bit of common sense, you will probably know the call-outs when you're most likely to be assaulted. That would be for example going to a rough part of the town/city or going to some drunken idiot-fest somewhere.

Yes, there may be one or two exceptional occasions that one wouldn't expect to need stab vests at when they actually do, but they'd surely be in the minority and hence stab-vests-at-discretion could only do more good than harm. Even if stabbing is not at a high rate in the ambulance service, assault is and having vests would only add to the peace of mind of paramedics.

Agreed :-)

ambo112

Anyone know if its possible to contact the HSA anonymously?

TylerIE

As others have said its not just stabbing that they protect from. They provide great padding or dispersion against punches, headbutts, kicks, pushes, etc.

granted they aint comfortable but HSE / DFB staff, could be issued the overt models that they could just apply on arrival to all incidents. Not wearing them while travelling out would reduce the discomfort from long term wear, and theres a little more space in an ambulance to apply them than there is in a Garda car.

As others have said you cant predict when you need them - Im sure many of our healthcare providers on the forum have met patients with dementia who have a fondness for sharp objects and throwing punches.

ambo112

London's newest edition to their uniform:


Very practical, any views?

Tango Alpha 51

A) not a stab vest & having worn something similar for nearly 3 years, I find it practical for most calls

ambo112

Tango Alpha 51 wrote: »

A) not a stab vest & having worn something similar for nearly 3 years, I find it practical for most calls

I didn't realise it wasn't a stab vest, are you NAS? I haven't seen any issue of a vest of any type :-)

Belfastmedic

vidar wrote: »

To be honest i think this is the worst thin g you could do, im with coach on this one, i see other members walking around thinking ill put it on when orif i need it and at that stage its too late.

Vest is another item of PPE, would you go near a pt without gloves on saying ah sure ill put them on if he starts to bleed?

Well said

ambo112

Would most people agree that the fact that it may need to be worn on a 24/7 basis would be the main reason why they would not like the idea of vests being issued?

Harry Bosch.

I believe that all frontline paramedics should have them, but try and get the powers to be to sanction them. Like AGS you have management who will simply not move with the times, its public perception versus operational needs, and we know what will win.

ambo112

Any change in views on stab vest considering the new framework currently going through IARC has a lot of solo responder ideas.

More people will be attending calls by themselves...

Pappa Charlie

ambo112 wrote: »

Any change in views on stab vest considering the new framework currently going through IARC has a lot of solo responder ideas.

More people will be attending calls by themselves...

If theres a need for a stab vest surely there is a need for a baton or pepper spray?