Gamesmanship - New rules/bans needed ?

Leiva

Gamesmanship no matter what you call it :

• Diving
• Faking Injury
• Cheating
• etc

....has always been in the game of football, but in recent years as the stakes get higher, the business interests and money increases, and clubs need to stay in leagues/competitions for their financial survival it seems that the "sport" of the game is suffering .

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It now seems to be win - and win at all costs

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Most supporters fell aggrieved and frustrated when they see a player try and cheat to either get another player sent off (or) get the advantage by say a dive etc , but when its their own team or player the majority turn the blind eye ... are we all guilty in a way ?

Bending the rules is a natural reply to rules themselves, but in recent years there is no bending just plain breaking of rules.
The clatter of cameras in use in a stadium that catch such acts doesn't deter a player either from doing it during the 90mins , or the embarrassment or label that may come after the game as being a cheat . again its seems to be win and win and all costs .

I really cant see this stopping unless the rules and bans are increased for such incidents , but again this will probably need to be introduced with a form of video evidence either during or after games to help impose charges .

I would like to see 3 - 4- 5 match bans for clear forms of cheating .
That way (with the current high stakes) a club/manager will fell obliged to inform and tell his players that they are needed on the pitch and to cut it out .


How do you fell about it ?


(ps) please do not turn this thread into player X is worse than player Y for cheating etc

GLaDOS

I think the best way would be retrospective banning if video evidence demonstrates obvious diving. Problem is this is not applicable at all levels of the game.

mike65

Hmmm, I reckon most of it could be removed by nothing more than smarter refereeing. If refs (and some do this) make it clear they will not be blowing up for every infringement players have less scope to fool the ref. Leaving some player sprawled on the deck while play continues (maybe with a goal or at least a shot resulting following the "incident") will mean players are under greater pressure to stay on their feet as managers won't accept suddenly being a man short.

Leiva

mike65 wrote: »

Hmmm, I reckon most of it could be removed by nothing more than smarter refereeing. If refs (and some do this) make it clear they will not be blowing up for every infringement players have less scope to fool the ref. Leaving some player sprawled on the deck while play continues (maybe with a goal or at least a shot resulting following the "incident") will mean players are under greater pressure to stay on their feet as managers won't accept suddenly being a man short.

True but this (imo) is the slyest form of cheating and really takes advantage that the ref cant see everything .

But with the advantage of slow motion reply and retrospective 3 match bans I can guarantee you that a player will soon think twice about it.

AnCapaillMor

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I think the best way would be retrospective banning if video evidence demonstrates obvious diving. Problem is this is not applicable at all levels of the game.

Definately, they use it for violent conduct why not diving.

Benimar

Something has to be done, it has reached ridiculous levels at this stage.

I think that retrospective banning is the way to go and there should be very harsh penalties to act as a deterrent - none of this one match ban to be served in the Carling Cup lark or a €5,000 fine which is pittance to players at the top of the scale.

I don't agree with the poster who says it can be stamped out by referees being 'smarter'. Its not a case of just refusing to be conned and leaving the player on the ground. If a player dives he should be punished, plain and simple. It really annoys me when a ref knows the player has dived but just tells him to get up.

If that means 3 or 4 players a game get sent off, so be it. They will learn soon enough and stop diving when they realise the consequences. (Same goes for all this holding at corners - give 5 penalties a game if needs be until its stamped out)

mike65

Actually I said this a few years ago - a pink card for diving. A photo of that being brandished in a players face on every front page and the chants that would follow would help

Diving: A 3 match ban for whatever league/cup you were playing in. At least it'll stop it in the PL and CL


Also, like Rugby, the captain should be the only person allowed to talk to a ref. Talk to a ref, instant yellow. That'll stop the bullying of referees from players

Morzadec

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Definately, they use it for violent conduct why not diving.

The problem is that a lot of what many people consider 'diving' is incredibly difficult to prove and is thus often not deemed diving or cheating by those in charge.

Remember Eduardo a few years ago?

Or a lot of people felt Suarez dived to win a penalty against Arsenal (personally I think it's a clear penalty as the closeup shows significant contact). But you retrospectively look at that, or many incidents like it that the 'purists/man's game/old school' consider blatant cheating, and I guarantee they won't be retrospectively punished.

Similar problem goes for feigning injury. How is it proved? How do you go about retrospectively punishing it when it is impossible to prove without doubt that the player is guilty of gamesmanship?

Blatant examples of cheating that can be 100% proved such as Drogba last night, or below by Gilardino are actually pretty rare, so I'm not sure how effective retrospective banning would be. They could in fact be counter-intuitive as situations which look like dives are reported and reviewed, and it is then decided that it can't really be completely proven that the player dived, and so the player is not punished. And then the dive is de facto deemed acceptable by the FA, UEFA or whoever it may be, because they can't completely prove it was a dive (the Eduardo incident for example shows this)

irish_goat

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, like Rugby, the captain should be the only person allowed to talk to a ref. Talk to a ref, instant yellow. That'll stop the bullying of referees from players

I like the thought of that but remember that the rugby captain is nearly always close enough to the ref though. If the goalkeeper is captain it wouldn't be practical to expect him to be able to chat to the ref at the other side of the pitch.

jordainius

Morzadec wrote: »

Or a lot of people felt Suarez dived to win a penalty against Arsenal (personally I think it's a clear penalty as the closeup shows significant contact).

No it doesn't!!!!

Leiva

jordainius wrote: »

No it doesn't!!!!

Thanks for that but i ask you please to read the last line of the OP .

Cheers

Benimar

Morzadec wrote: »

The problem is that a lot of what many people consider 'diving' is incredibly difficult to prove and is thus often not deemed diving or cheating by those in charge.

Remember Eduardo a few years ago?

Or a lot of people felt Suarez dived to win a penalty against Arsenal (personally I think it's a clear penalty as the closeup shows significant contact). But you retrospectively look at that, or many incidents like it that the 'purists/man's game/old school' consider blatant cheating, and I guarantee they won't be retrospectively punished.

Similar problem goes for feigning injury. How is it proved? How do you go about retrospectively punishing it when it is impossible to prove without doubt that the player is guilty of gamesmanship?

Blatant examples of cheating that can be 100% proved such as Drogba last night, or below by Gilardino are actually pretty rare, so I'm not sure how effective retrospective banning would be. They could in fact be counter-intuitive as situations which look like dives are reported and reviewed, and it is then decided that it can't really be completely proven that the player dived, and so the player is not punished. And then the dive is de facto deemed acceptable by the FA, UEFA or whoever it may be, because they can't completely prove it was a dive

I don't think you shy away from trying to stop diving just because it might be difficult to prove in a lot of cases. The prospect of a 3,4 or 5 match ban could well be enough to deter a player from considering to dive, and the incidences of players 'going down easy' will reduce as a result.

Sure, some 'guilty' people will get off because the case can't be proven, but this happens in all walks of life. At least the deterrent is in place.

patmac

Drogba was a disgrace yesterday and Luiz was no better when he was tackled towards the end of 90 minutes and was told to get up by his own player, broken leg one minute and dancing with the ball 30 seconds later. I admired Chelsea's fightback up to the point of Drogba's let's face it piss poor acting one eye looking up like a scolded dog, was hoping Napoli would score.
No one on RTE mentioned it afterwards, but for me it spoilt the game.

jordainius

mixednuts wrote: »

Thanks for that but i ask you please to read the last line of the OP .

Cheers

Didn't realise you were a soccer mod...

Leiva

jordainius wrote: »

Didn't realise you were a soccer mod...

Sorry not back seat modding . i did say please . its just this thread will go down the potty quick if specific players/incidents get debated

CSF

Having lost a cup final over a player getting sent off for diving when fouled, the last thing I'd like to see is giving referees more opportunity (and let's face it, the panel to judge these sort of things would have to have some sort of refereeing qualification) to get their name in headlines. Richie Winters would be all over this.

While an act of violence is pretty easy to spot on video footage, deciding whether a player has dived or fallen or had their balance taken away with an ok tackle, is very hard to call 95% of the time.

jordainius

Impossible to police it. If there is contact, a player will choose to go down more often than not. Despite the contact not actually being significant enough to actually make the player fall, the player will still go down anyway. That type of cheating is just as bad as diving without contact in my opinion.

Then there are instances where a player moving at pace will genuinely fall under very slight contact, and will appear to go down very easily even though they genuinely fell. So players would possibly end up being wrongfully punished.

Something needs to be done alright, but a lot easier said than done when you get into where exactly we draw the lines and consider the grey areas. Cheating is part of the culture of soccer, fans have to stop being selective about it, it can't just be unacceptable when the opposition does it.

jordainius

mixednuts wrote: »

Sorry not back seat modding . i did say please . its just this thread will go down the potty quick if specific players/incidents get debated

You're right, I was a bit of an asshole there, sorry.

grumpymunster

It would be much better to try and sort this out on the pitch rather than afterwards through video evidence and such like. The thing is there were 6 officals at last nights game, and you really need to wonder what do the guys behind the goal actually do. The linesman has some excuse as he will be looking for offsides etc but between the ref and the spectator behind each goal they should be able to get a decent view of what is happening.

If a player dives then fair enough book him and if he does it again send him off, but in champions league matches there is no excuse for the pitiful control of a match we sometimes see from officials.

Sasquatch76

I think the media's double standards don't help either.

Obviously I can't say how the South American commentators view diving etc, but we've seen the British media describe a home nation player's dive as "winning a free" or at worst "going down a little easy" or soft. A foreign player on the other hand, is a "cheat", "diver", "embarrassing".

I'm not for a second suggesting it's the media's fault, but the double standards bug me. As for a solution, retrospective cards seem like the only viable solution to me.

Orando Broom

at the local level diving/feigning is impossible to stamp out. I am a pretty big guy and I am not easy knocked off a ball. Without fail in a game I am fouled fifteen twenty times, guys coming in from behind, elbows in the head, shoved in the back. Because I do my best to stay on my feet I get nothing. Last season I can honestly say I won maybe five frees. I was given two penalties in a match once. that was it. I had to be practically decapitated to win them.

The fact that I stay on my feet and try to retain possession and receive no protection from the ref harms my team. We are denied set piece opportunities and the opposition can get away with hacking the crap out of me and I can only react, resulting in my team being punished. Diving is encouraged by officials because of their reticence to punish offences by small guys on big guys. Look at Crouch, the guy is fouled routinely by defenders and win nothing. He is being encouraged to play for frees. Niall Quinn agaisnt Spain is one of the few times you'll see a big guy get fair treatment.

Drogba is a big strong man he knows what he has to do to get his team an advantage, sickening as it may be, he knows if he played it fair he'd get nothing.

Giggsy11

It is hard to prove that a player dived.

Even with all the video evidences there are so many doubts. First line of defense will be "There was contact" but was there sufficient contact to bring the player down? That you can't prove with Videos as not all players have excellent balance. Also it is hard to prove when players running at full speed will easily lose balance for slightest of contacts whereas when you are jogging you can regain balance. So player can easily defend himself saying he couldn't regain balance and commity will have nothing to prove otherwise.

Regarding faking injury, we have seen many obvious incidents, again first line of defense will be "How can you say that it didn't hurt me? ". Tbh that would be a valid question as each players have different treshold for pain (If that sentense make sense). I mean few players are tough enough to carry on whereas few players are not. We can say he is faking an injury but we can't prove that (When there is a contact I mean).

IMO only obvious incidents can be punished like "Going down when there is 0 contact" "clutching face when they are touched on the neck" and all.

Mr. Presentable

The only one who can stop the cheating is the manager/coach. It is plain for all to see that the players are told to do whatever they can get away with.

jordainius

A player who goes down injured and stays down for more than 10 seconds or so should be forced off for ten minutes for a mandatory recovery period, the player can be replaced with a mandatory blood sub as in rugby, and at the end of the ten, either the player is brought back on or the substitution made permanent.

I'd like to think something like that would cut out a lot of that injury feigning rubbish.

LuckyLloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

Diving: A 3 match ban for whatever league/cup you were playing in. At least it'll stop it in the PL and CL


Also, like Rugby, the captain should be the only person allowed to talk to a ref. Talk to a ref, instant yellow. That'll stop the bullying of referees from players

THIS WOULD BE SO SIMPLE TO IMPLEMENT!!

Leiva

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

THIS WOULD BE SO SIMPLE TO IMPLEMENT!!

Aint something already in place but just not policed ?

LuckyLloyd

Correctly identifying all incidents of simulation would be difficult or impossible /= We therefore shouldn't apply retrospective punishments to the obvious and undebatable incidents of same

LuckyLloyd

mixednuts wrote: »

Aint something already in place but just not policed ?

Same difference.

grumpymunster

jordainius wrote: »

A player who goes down injured and stays down for more than 10 seconds or so should be forced off for ten minutes for a mandatory recovery period, the player can be replaced with a mandatory blood sub as in rugby, and at the end of the ten, either the player is brought back on or the substitution made permanent.

I'd like to think something like that would cut out a lot of that injury feigning rubbish.

I think that would lead to more feighing injury for sure. Go a goal down late with all subs used right get the RB to go down and we bring on a winger or CF.

Also where players are really hurt why punish them would you send the offending player off for a 10 minute cooler as well?

Wouldn't work I think it would make it worse.

28064212

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Problem is this is not applicable at all levels of the game.

Unless the Premiership is doing away with linesmen, Man United are moving to my local (lopsided) pitch and the top of the range footballs are replaced with repurposed gaelic balls, that is not a problem. The game is not the same at all levels, and never has been

Dempsey

Allowing only the captain and the player(s) involved to talk to the referee would be the most obvious thing to improve the game in this regard and nobody allowed to approach linesmen.

After that, its abit hard to see solutions with minimal drawbacks or cant be abused in future by players

Liam O

As people have said, diving is incredibly difficult to police. I was watching Bayern the other night and Lawrenson was going on about a clear dive when a player (I think Ribery or Robben) was clipped from behind and went down acrobatically. Now these players are probably fouled about 10-20 times a game and if they take advantage of it once or twice a game where there is enough contact for a foul but they know they wont get the free without going down then it's fair enough imo. However, when players do it everytime they are come close to by an opponent it becomes a problem.

Another problem is referees risk players getting injured when they get a reputation for diving too with some sickening challenges given nothing for. This is a bigger problem in the PL than most other leagues and before anything can be done about diving tackling has to be revolutionised. A lot of diving can be put down to some hatchet man sliding in and the other player seeing this and trying to get out of the way. For instance, tackles like this on Ronaldo only getting a yellow card and him being branded a "sissy" by the maker of the video made it easier for me to justify him jumping out of the way of contact and may have been a big reason why he didn't get injured a lot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKohHsaADeI

LuckyLloyd

Football will never improve on these points because the attitude of fans prohibits the improvement. Ideas like:

- 'we can't do something if it can't be replicated at my park game on a Sunday morning';
- 'we can't do something unless it completely solves an issue';

are retarded, and will forever hinder improvement. Rugby, American Football and Tennis (to name but three sports) will introduce things if they think the sport will be improved because of it. They don't spend time needlessly poring over every edge case scenario, and they certainly don't give a **** about the amateur level of the game.

If some measure will improve things, remove the worst excesses of cheating then ****ing do it already. Football is in the stone ages relative to other sports because of these "concerns".

Fizman

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I think the best way would be retrospective banning if video evidence demonstrates obvious diving. Problem is this is not applicable at all levels of the game.

I've been saying this for quite some time now.

If the authorities implemented this, the offender could then be castigated properly, instead of the usual bol1ox like Harry coming out and saying that it isn't possible Bale dives because he is Welsh etc etc. Fining is completely pointless imo, but hey, introduce it and maybe give something along the lines of £20k to a charity on each occasion.

A 2 match ban for a first offense.
A 3 match ban for a second offense.
A 4 match ban for a third offense.....and so on.


This would quickly stamp out the sh1t that is going on in every single game.

Granted, it cannot be implemented across all levels, but it is BADLY needed at the highlest level if you ask me.

briany

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I think the best way would be retrospective banning if video evidence demonstrates obvious diving. Problem is this is not applicable at all levels of the game.

But if the culture of diving were eliminated at the highest levels, it may have a trickle down effect to the lower levels that could only help the integrity of the game. Young players on the way up who aspire to move to the professional ranks would be less inclined to dive then if they knew it was something that was near impossible to do successfully in the professional game and could hurt their careers.

GLaDOS

briany wrote: »

But if the culture of diving were eliminated at the highest levels, it may have a trickle down effect to the lower levels that could only help the integrity of the game. Young players on the way up who aspire to move to the professional ranks would be less inclined to dive then if they knew it was something that was near impossible to do successfully in the professional game and could hurt their careers.

I do agree, I was just pointing out the potential flaw for balance . Governing bodies need to do something about it. It's a disgrace to the game tbh.

Optimalprimerib

If a player goes down feigning being hit in the face. The opposition player he is trying to get sent off should get a free shot.

Give the cheat a proper injury.

Gbear

If a player is about to shoot and is clipped slightly or nudged enough to put them off balance and miss I think that's a foul. Problem is that a ref probably wont see that. Then you get a player throwing themselves to the floor to highlight an infringement. I don't really have a problem with that.

To be able to tell the difference, even with video evidence, between that and actually throwing yourself to the ground unaided or feigning injury like Drogba, Suarez, Busquets, Robben, Alves, Nani and a million other players great and small do (lets not get tribal lads, we've all got some serious fannies playing for our teams), is difficult.

Perhaps, if you spend more than 5 seconds on the ground it's assumed you're injured and you're sent off for treatment for 5 minutes. If you're actually injured then there's no problem. Otherwise that's a serious incentive.

Ebbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, like Rugby, the captain should be the only person allowed to talk to a ref. Talk to a ref, instant yellow. That'll stop the bullying of referees from players

I remember playing at underage level this rule was in place. It worked rather well and if a match was getting a little ill tempered the ref would talk to the two captains and two managers in the centre circle. Id love to see it in place, but it shouldnt stop at verbal communication. You often see managers and whole benches running out from the dug out and jumping around looking for cards and such.

amacachi

Referees need to wise up as well. There's times where it's not clear if there's been contact warranting a player going down but they go down and once the whistle goes they grab their leg and roll around in agony. Whether or not there was a foul it's obvious play-acting and should be stamped out.

handsomecake

what annoys me is players adding it to their repertoire.im a spurs fan and dont remember bale being at this in the last two years or at southhampton. every third run he makes now he is looking to go down like a roll of carpet.
what annoys me most is the fans siege mentality and this forum is a prime example of it.
stupid rationale in match threads like "well he dived at our place two years ago so now we're square"
"youve a player in your team whos a bigger diver than ours"
"of course youd slag suarez your a united fan"
"of course youd slag evra your a liverpool fan"
the incident in question then gets lost in the **** fight and doesnt get treated on its own merits in isolation.
soccer needs citing comissioners like rugby and on the monday a panel decide on all the stuff from the weekend and dish out the bans.
also like the NFL there should be monster fines in place for illegal stuff like dangerous tackles and headbutts ,fighting etc.

who cares about whether or not its implementable at grassroots level-theres not as much at stake.
you dont see j3 rugby players complaining that there is no video ref.

soccer is miles behind the nfl and rugby in terms of officiating and in terms of calibre of "fan" in my opinion with people adopting to defend their own teams players regardless of their indiscretions which further infuriates opposition fans and makes your siege mentality all the more laughable.
whether its racially abusing another player
diving incessantly
punching a guy in a bar
having an affair with your sister in law
shagging your team mates girlfriend and then terminating the pregnancy that ensued
banging granny hookers while your missus is pregnant
the list goes on
rather then chastise your own players people think its better to post up a "gif" of said player giving thumbs up ,or smiling or driving a ferrari or winking or taking the piss.
you should be embarrased by your teams players behaviour and not defend it to the hilt
bale is embarrassing me now and i find it hard to defend him over a pint or at the watercooler.but maybe ive a conscience..........

Liam O

handsomecake wrote: »

banging your sisters wife for years
punching a guy in a bar
having an affair with your sister in law
shagging your team mates girlfriend and then terminating the pregnancy that ensued
banging granny hookers while your missus is pregnant

What do any of these have to do with football?

handsomecake

Liam O wrote: »

What do any of these have to do with football?

exactly! nothing yet fans still defend them.

Benimar

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

If a player goes down feigning being hit in the face. The opposition player he is trying to get sent off should get a free shot.

Give the cheat a proper injury.

I've always thought this would be great :-)