4G

pigeon999

Any update on LTE in Ireland? Does vodafone have HSPA+ or any other network.

Arciphel

I don't think the auction for the spectrum has been done as of yet, so nope

JTMan

The 4G auction is taking place 'shortly'.

The delay was caused by one of the operators asking Comreg for a delay.

Walkman

Three are rolling out HSPA+ but that's not LTE

FGR

Fungus wrote: »

The 4G auction is taking place 'shortly'.

The delay was caused by one of the operators asking Comreg for a delay.

....?

Any reason given for that? It sounds like one of them wasn't prepared to spend the money right now.

pigeon999

Do vodafone have HSPA+ yet? How long will it talk to roll out LTE when the auctions are finished?

JTMan

ForegoneReality wrote: »

....?

Any reason given for that? It sounds like one of them wasn't prepared to spend the money right now.

Industry consolidation negotiations. I would guess.

danjo-xx

Wish we had a reliable 3G before they start pushing 4 on us, but then sales know's no bounderies:(

Captain Chaos

Do they not have to wait until the Digital switch over in October to go to 4G in the 1800 Mhz range when it frees up.

JTMan

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Do they not have to wait until the Digital switch over in October to go to 4G in the 1800 Mhz range when it frees up.

It will take a long time post auction to start building 4G networks.

vicM

Thought 3.5G was HSPA+

JTMan

Big news on the 4G auction ...
http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/26285-ireland-takes-one-step-clos

Looks like 4G will 'launch' in some shape on February 1st 2013.

AlmostCared

vicM wrote: »

Thought 3.5G was HSPA+

Yes, 3.5G is HSPA+ I have an imported Samsung Galaxy Note and I am on the three network and I know they have 3.5G, as I had it on my old phone. The H+ sign would appear when downloading or streaming stuff but switch back to the 3G sign when idle.

vicM

Yep and O2 as well

2012IE

will normal 2g phones still work on 900 and 1800mhz if they are running 3g on those freq's?

JTMan

More on the 4G auction:
http://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/2012/03/19/ireland-inches-closer-to-4g-wireless-spectrum-auction/

The reserve price has been set at EUR20 million per 2×5MHz block of sub-1GHz spectrum, and EUR10 million per 2×5MHz of 1800MHz spectrum. Winning bidders will be required to pay a portion of this amount up-front, with the remainder paid annually over the duration of the licence. The lots on offer are:
• 800MHz band – in the frequency range 791MHz-821MHz paired with 832MHz-862MHz, which comprises six paired 5MHz lots
• 900MHz band – in the frequency range 880MHz-915MHz paired with 925MHz-960 MHz, which comprises seven paired lots of 5MHz; and
• 1800MHz band – in the frequency range 1710MHz-1785MHz paired with 1805MHz-1880MHz, which comprises 15 paired 5MHz blocks.

token56

Fungus wrote: »

Big news on the 4G auction ...
http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/26285-ireland-takes-one-step-clos

Looks like 4G will 'launch' in some shape on February 1st 2013.

Anything that comes out early next year will certainly not be 4G. HSPA+ will probably be continued to be rolled out in a couple of areas and marketed as 4G no doubted. Its a big pet peeve of mine that operators are allowed market these things as 4G when they are not. Even the LTE network rolled out by in the US is not strictly 4G as defined by the International Telecommunications Union . However operators do love their marketing but they really should not be allowed to market it as such.

Even still the LTE network being rolled in the US requires significant new infrastructure in terms of base stations and back haul networks so I really can't see it coming soon. I can't imagine operators are close to building these when like has been said already we have poor HSPA+ coverage as far as I can see.

The whole spectrum auction thing in general annoys me hugely anyway. It leads to hugely inefficient usage of what is a very scarce resource, i.e. the electromagnetic spectrum. It could be much more efficient but money talks, anyway that is a different topic for a different day.

Quazzie

I thought 4G was 100mb/s+

I can't see us having this here for a LONG time.

ED E

There's really no point in LTE until the backbones are put in for such traffic. A handful of users at 14mb would consume all the current bandwidth in any given area :rolleyes:

Solair

To be honest, I'd ignore the US marketing. They were going around calling EDGE 3G for a while!

FGR

I'd rather the networks go about having sufficient Edge coverage nevermind 3g/3.5g. I'm only two miles from the town centre and have absolutely no signal.

Had to resort to importing a repeater and mounting the antenna sky high. Does the job but wish life could be a bit easier than going to these measures!

pigeon999

Quazzie wrote: »

I thought 4G was 100mb/s+

I can't see us having this here for a LONG time.

It can go up to 100mbps but realistically 5-12 once alot if people start using the network. My Guess mid-2014 for it to roll out.

Arciphel

Fungus wrote: »

More on the 4G auction:
http://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/2012/03/19/ireland-inches-closer-to-4g-wireless-spectrum-auction/

Seems cheap compared to what the 3G spectrum auctions ended up going for...:rolleyes: I wonder have they learned their lesson?

Sponge Bob

They cannot auction the large block 2500-2600mhz in Ireland until UPC shut down MMDS TV in April 2014. They could auction 2600-2690Mhz though but have chosen not to.

Solair

Vodafone, O2, Meteor and Three all operate 3.5G networks with HSPA+.

I know I get 6mbit/s on my iPad on O2 and well up to 6-7mbit/s on Meteor dongles in Cork.

LTE deployment isn't all that difficult in a lot of cases it's done in software at the transmitter sites on newer HSPA enabled gear from Ericsson etc.

What tends to hold up speed in some areas on mobile networks is lack of fibre backhaul at the transmitter sites and over-use of mobile broadband in others due to lack of fixed line alternatives.

The proposed frequencies are 800, 1800, 2600 MHz in Europe. 1800MHz is already allocated to all the above operators for GSM 2G services.

Ultimately, I'd say you'll see LTE launching on 900MHz and 1800MHz as there's no real reason for huge swathes of the spectrum to be kept exclusive to 2G GSM when the majority of handsets support UMTS (3G/4G) services.

The logical thing to do would be to shrink 2G allocations bit by bit, and re-use the spectrum for 3G/4G services, thus giving you a smooth change over and ultimately phase out of 2G in a few years.

Handset life is very short 2-5 years max, so within a very short space of time the terminals people are using to connect to the network change technology and it really means that you don't have to worry all that much about backward compatibility. Ensuring that there is enough 3G and 4G spectrum is FAR more important as smart phones and other devices dominate the market in Ireland.

There are some weird uses of 2G devices e.g. in power metering / remote control systems by ESB and other utilities, but I don't think those should be a reason to hold up the entire telecommunications network. Rather, they'll just need to change their data cards!

The vast majority of handsets in use today support 3G. It's not even very easy to purchase a 2G handset anymore.

The 900Mhz band also gives excellent coverage and signal propagation and I am pretty sure that the same sites can be re-used and possibly even the same antennae can be used with UMTS equipment so it's only a matter of changing gear in the hut at the end of the tower.

From an end user's perspective it just means faster 3G/4G services. 2G would still be supported, and due to lightening demand, would still work fine with far less capacity.

All I know is that in a very buoyant mobile market like Ireland, there should be absolutely no excuse for holding up the rollout of LTE services. Comreg, once again is proving to be a bit of a joke.

We should be bleeding edge on these kinds of technologies, not some backwater laggard! There's absolutely no explanation for this other than regulatory agencies moving at a snails pace.

cookie1977

Fungus wrote: »

Industry consolidation negotiations. I would guess.

O2 said they found a fatal flaw with the auction but the info on the comreg site was redacted so we dont know what it was:
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1225.pdf
Page 66

cookie1977

and here:
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1221.pdf

page 140, 154-156

Sponge Bob

O2 want to dodge network investment as long as possible, 2014 would do nicely for them.

The redaction of a non confidential document was done by Comreg and O2 both.

ED E

You'd hope for some political pressure for this to move forward to keep up the "smart economy" idea but tbh I doubt many ministers even know what LTE is :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

No smart economy exists in the Dept of Communications. Comreg have been told to get money in but the networks want to sweat what they have for another year if they can.

The variable is the potential fifth market entrant although O2 seem to have put the frighteners under Comreg. The possibility exists that one or more of the existing 4 will not get spectrum or that the withheld spectrum around 2600mhz may of interest to UPC in a later auction where they don't want the rest of it.

Rollout, coverage and network quality targets are crap, the worst in any developed country.

evolutionqy7

Id agree. Think networks will try to milk the cow as long as possible. Even though it could position them to be a better covered and more reliable network.

Couple of years back we seen a very fast roll out of 3G in well populated areas. The rest of the country is still yet to get any. I still know lots of people who can't get 3G in their homes and rely on 2G, including me. All networks I tried have the same crappy coverage in my house, and its not overly insulated.

Id love to see Meteor and Three pick their games up as I think the two need this more than Vodafone or 02. Would be nice to see the day when everywhere I go I have 3G. No need to switch to Wifi.

cookie1977

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

Id agree. Think networks will try to milk the cow as long as possible. Even though it could position them to be a better covered and more reliable network.

Couple of years back we seen a very fast roll out of 3G in well populated areas. The rest of the country is still yet to get any. I still know lots of people who can't get 3G in their homes and rely on 2G, including me. All networks I tried have the same crappy coverage in my house, and its not overly insulated.

Id love to see Meteor and Three pick their games up as I think the two need this more than Vodafone or 02. Would be nice to see the day when everywhere I go I have 3G. No need to switch to Wifi.

I dont think meteor/emobile could afford a 4G license at present

Sponge Bob

cookie1977 wrote: »

I dont think meteor/emobile could afford a 4G license at present

True, and the competition pricing was skewed to get them a licence. Problem is that this dramatically lowers any barrier to entry for a putative 5th licencee.

However it is ultimately a contest where 2 strong entities with good 2G spectrum and large customer bases wish to continue their dominance over 2 weak competitors who have nothing much like that and who wish to continue to exert capture control over a weak, dithering, clueless and unprincipled regulator.

Meteor done great to get where they did considering the weakness of their network and crap spectrum. 3 only have around 400k active customers ( some with more than one device) after 7 or 8 years in the market.

In the key 900mhz band 'up to' 7 licences could be awarded and minimum 4 could be awarded ( minimum = 3 x 10mhz and 1 x 5mhz. ) subject to meeting minimum reserve prices only.

After May 2013 ( or so) a new entrant or an old market player with no 2g spectrum could offer 2G services where they possibly cannot now. I think the O2 cribbing may have been that say (eg) UPC or BT could do so where O2 may not by the 2G spectrum surrender subclause ...but I am not sure.

I thought the wording of the consultation was crap myself, Comreg not understanding combinatorial clock auctions ( pseudopure market pricing) basically. Same as everything Comreg touches then.

ED E

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Meteor done great to get where they did considering the weakness of their network and crap spectrum. 3 only have around 400 active customers ( some with more than one device) after 7 or 8 years in the market.

Really

cookie1977

It's explained nicely here:
http://engage.acma.gov.au/digitaldividend/the-combinatorial-clock-auction/
The combinatorial clock auction that is

Sponge Bob

ED E wrote: »

Really

Missing a K Fixed.

They had around 325k active ( as distinct from registered) customers at the end of 2010. I have assumed around 25% growth since.

pigeon999

Most networks have crappy 3G signal and now there rolling out HSPA+ that proves company's don't really care for existing customers they only want new ones.

pigeon999

Most networks have crappy 3G signal and now there rolling out HSPA+ that proves company's don't really care for existing customers they only want new ones.

JTMan

Eircom have told the High Court that they have set money aside for the 4G auction.

Hence, despite the Eircom examinership, Meteor will be bidding in the 4G auction.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0331/1224314162828.html

It is forecast Meteor’s capital expenditure is likely to average €45 million over the five years. It will have to bid for spectrum in an upcoming licence auction to be held by regulator ComReg. Details of the amount needed for this were not revealed.

evolutionqy7

Fungus wrote: »

Eircom have told the High Court that they have set money aside for the 4G auction.

Hence, despite the Eircom examinership, Meteor will be bidding in the 4G auction.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0331/1224314162828.html

It is forecast Meteor’s capital expenditure is likely to average €45 million over the five years. It will have to bid for spectrum in an upcoming licence auction to be held by regulator ComReg. Details of the amount needed for this were not revealed.

They can't afford not to bid for it.

Sponge Bob

And they need to get some spectrum below 1.8ghz ....rapid. I could see them turning on 900mhz GSM services as fast as they can and never mind 4G.

JTMan

The Sunday Times reports that the target revenue from the mobile operators is 500,000,000 EUR from the 4G auction.

If 4 providers win spectrum, which is probably a big if, that's an average of 125,000,000 EUR per provider.

Sponge Bob

They are off with the fairies if they think they will get €500m. Think €200-250m perhaps.

If they split the country so that one physical shared network could be built in most of it and paid for pro rata 'sims' that use it then they might get nearer €400m but as long as the operators face building their own networks everywhere then no.

€500m if a single RAN covered the entire state perhaps but that is undesirable. Urban and high population areas should have two RANs minimum.

Sponge Bob

Oh and forgot to mention 3 produced their annual report this week that says they now have 420k active customers ( having grown 30% to 2011 since 2010).

I had assumed 25% growth to 400k active customers only a week back but they outperformed by 20k skulls.

The average active customer produces nearly €400 a year in revenue for a total 3 revenue of €150m in 2011, and that was the first time their reveue ever exceeded €100m in a year.

I don't think they could afford another €125m ( 1/4 of €500m mentioned in the sunday times) for a bit of spectrum somehow. Neither can Meteor.

O2 have annual revenue amost 5 times higher than 3 ( it was 8 times higher a year ago) and would get severe indigestion at paying €125m for anything seeing as their mobile revenue last year fell 13% to €677m ( and 18% in q4 alone as smartphone users fled O2 as fast as they could). However they noted that drops in outrageous mobile termination rates caused more than half of the 13% fall and that had they remaine static they would have decline by half that.

JTMan

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They are off with the fairies if they think they will get €500m. Think €200-250m perhaps.

Thanks for your interesting detailed comments Sponge Bob but I think you are off the mark with the financial figures.

The minimum amount Comreg will get is 410,000,000 EUR.

(13 * 20,000,000) + (15 * 10,000,000) = 410,000,000 EUR.

This obviously assumes that all licenses are sold which I think they will be.

JTMan

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I don't think they could afford another €125m ( 1/4 of €500m mentioned in the sunday times) for a bit of spectrum somehow. Neither can Meteor.

Hutchison Whampoa are cash rich. They can afford to pay 125,000,000 EUR without a shadow of a doubt. They are very future focused and will want this spectrum.

Having said that, Hutchison Whampoa have criticised Comreg for the high minimum prices and the snail pace slow auction process.

Eircom told the Sunday times that it will "hopefully be participating" in the 4G auction.

Sponge Bob

Fungus wrote: »

T

The minimum amount Comreg will get is 410,000,000 EUR.

(13 * 20,000,000) + (15 * 10,000,000) = 410,000,000 EUR.

This obviously assumes that all licenses are sold which I think they will be.

The minimum amount Comreg want will get is 410,000,000 EUR.

I don't thiink they will be sold, I could see no more than 8 x €20m and 2 x €10m getting off the mark.

Thats 1 x 800mhz and 1 x 900mhz each ( total 8 x €20m ) and with O2 and Voda taking 1 x 1800mhz each (for total 2 x €10m) giving a grand total of €180m in this round....and not for a penny more than €20m or €10m as applicable.

Where on EARTH did you get the notion that all 15 blocks in the 1800mhz spectrum will be sold at €10m per block???

UPC will likely wait till the 2500mhz auction in 2013. I can't see anyone else bothering at all except for the 4 amigos we have today.

JTMan

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where on EARTH did you get the notion that all 15 blocks in the 1800mhz spectrum will be sold at €10m per block???

Comreg seem very confident.

The Sunday Times article today believed that they will all be sold.

The IMF/EU/ECB Trokia quarterly report seemed confident of hitting the 500,000,000 EUR mark.

Granted, they could all be wrong.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

UPC will likely wait till the 2500mhz auction in 2013. I can't see anyone else bothering at all except for the 4 amigos we have today.

The Sunday Times said that 7 parties are sniffing around the 4G licenses. Our 4 amigos, UPC, Digiweb and Imagine.

Until recently I thought that UPC might 'do a Virgin Media' and bid for 4G spectrum. However, recent interviews by Dana Strong, the chief executive of UPC Ireland, clearly show that UPC are signalling that they are not interested. She keeps talking about a "conservative approach" and a "light investment" approach. Seems that she is trying to say that they are happy with the Eircom MVNO approach only.

I can't see Digiweb or Imagine having the cash for a bid.

Hence, agreed, our 4 amigos, will most likely be the only ones that end up with licenses.

Sponge Bob

Fungus wrote: »

Comreg seem very confident.

The Sunday Times article today believed that they will all be sold.

The IMF/EU/ECB Trokia quarterly report seemed confident of hitting the 500,000,000 EUR mark.

Granted, they could all be wrong.

If we are relying on Comreg to save us from the IMF then we are surely fusked. I'll stick by my prediction of a maximum €200m-250m from this round and Comreg will have to roll another round out in 2013 along with the 2.5ghz blocks. That won't raise more than a few 10s of €ms neither.

Obviously a hungry sunday times journo was fed and watered by Comreg (on generous Comreg expenses) to get the Comreg story out there. No other explanation for this BS.

The Sunday Times said that 7 parties are sniffing around the 4G licenses. Our 4 amigos, UPC, Digiweb and Imagine.

Luls The same Imagine that is trying to get $100m off Motorola on some spurious ground or other. Sure they have €20m to spare. Digiweb may punt for an 800mhz block as part of a consortium I will concede. That will get us to €200m...whoops de doop. €300m short of what Comreg and Rabbitte told the IMF.

Until recently I thought that UPC might 'do a Virgin Media' and bid for 4G spectrum. However, recent interviews by Dana Strong, the chief executive of UPC Ireland, clearly show that UPC are signalling that they are not interested. She keeps talking about a "conservative approach" and a "light investment" approach. Seems that she is trying to say that they are happy with the Eircom MVNO approach only.

I can't see Digiweb or Imagine having the cash for a bid.

Hence, agreed, our 4 amigos, will most likely be the only ones that end up with licenses.

Agree largely with all that. I would see UPC bidding for 2500mhz ( at realistic reserve prices mind) in 2013 though but not for the expensive low frequency blocks.

So 4 x 800 an 4 x 900 and 2 x 1800 and possibly 1x 900 or 800 for Digiweb = €200m . I'll stick on that.

JTMan

If you are right, then the government is going to have a gap of a further 300,000,000 EUR in revenue, far more than the Household Charge total income, this year. This will be need to be plugged in the 2013 budget. Here comes more austerity.

Let's hope it is not all smoke, mirrors and lies and that there is a solid basis to suggest that 500,000,000 EUR will be raised.

We will know the outcome in late July, if there are not further Comreg delays.

Sponge Bob

If Comreg and the civil servants in the Dept of Comms ever arrived at that €500m figure and told the IMF about it then all I can say is God Help us come late July.

A €300m shortfall is the most likely outcome. Possibly even more.