HKC system versus Powermax system

torrevieja

What are the Pros and Cons of these Systems and which would you recommend ???

KoolKid

I presume your talking about Quantum vs Visonic.

The only real difference people are going to say is one way vs 2 way wireless.
Battery life is supposed to be a big thing here. I havn't found much difference to be honest. I have plenty of Visonic PiRs (wireless) running over 3 years without a replacement.
Visonic is a long established & trusted name in wireless.
I find Visonic devices as reliable as any others & a little cheaper.

Over to Altor.....For The HKC approval.

torrevieja

correct

altor

I have installed the powermax complete and the Quantum, both will protect your home whichever you did decide to have installed. The Powermax is a basic system as anyone will tell you. There does be about €50 in the difference in most cases when compared in price. There are a few differences between both systems, not just the two way and one way on the devices.
Two way radio advantages allows instant device wake up and instant device off that gives more control of each device and will conserve battery power. In the Powermax one way wireless systems when the system is set the wireless devices may still be asleep for up to 3-5minutes. This can be dangerous because once the system has set, some of the wireless devices maybe inactive until the sleep time has expired. On the Quantum there is no sleep time. When enrolling sensors on the Quantum you get more information with regard the signal strength of each device rather than just Strong, Good or Poor in the setting up of the sensors on the Powermax. If the MC is programmed into the system as a dual sensor on a zone then the system can be set with any window open. Learning the sensor in dual onto two zones will indicate that the MC is open. In theory it turns a 28 zone panel in half doing it this way but it is the only way to install MCs on this system. A feature the Powermax does have is the two way voice if the alarm activates and it rings your phone, the system will play a pre-recorded message then you have the option of pressing 2 to acknowledge the call of press 6 for two way voice to the control panel for listening in and taking into your home. No DSL filter on the Powermax, the Quantum has a built in DSL filter for if you have broadband, when your alarm activates it will ring your phone and tell you what has activated, e.g. the zone in question, back door PIR hall and so on. The Quantum can have a wired bell, you would need to add an expander to have this option on the Powermax.

KoolKid

I think your exaggerating (and scaremongering) a little on the sleep time of 5 minutes. When have you come across this?. I have tested this and its usually around 90 seconds. Take your exiting time off that & its not a vunerability at all. There has never been an an istance, that I'm aware of ,where someone has been broken into & the alarm did not activate due to the device not waking up yet.
Again on the battery life I'm not convinced. As I said I have been getting over 3 years on my own Visonic wireless devices. I find that more than sadisfactory for wireless.
The seperation of MCs is a good thing, no?
I always use deperate zones. It gives the user more flexability like being able to leave a window open slightly for air while still having the inertia active.
Price wise Its around €10 per device cheaper on Visonic vs HKC with MCs & PiRs. So on a system of 10 devices thats nearer €100
. Also the cost of the expander is cancelled out by the use of a wired bell either way. Something I try to do where possible either way.

altor

I am not exaggerating or scaremongering. I have said 3-5 minutes, it can vary.
90 seconds sleep time on a Powermax system is bull. Have you walked in front of the motion for this 90 to confirm I have and it is more likely 3-5 minutes. I have even tested an Aritech system today and that was just under 3 minutes.

KoolKid wrote: »

I always use seperate zones. It gives the user more flexability like being able to leave a window open slightly for air while still having the inertia active.

If you are setting the part set on the Powermax system up this way then every time they set the system to part set the contacts are omitted from the system :eek:

Funny enough when the rep was doing the training on the system I went over to ask him a few different question, to my amazement he said regarding the batteries if you are doing a service call then it is wise to change the battery from a PIR to a PIR in a location that does not get much use
Might have something to do with the battery life :rolleyes:

KoolKid

I have set a system left the pir for 90 seconds and it will activate.
I have offered to prove this to anyone who wats to see it.
Have you any back up for your 3 - 5 minutes.?
Noone mentions Aritech, so whats that got to do with Visonic devices.
The example I gave on the powermax re serperate zones had nothing to do with part set , why are yo mentioning that. If zones are seperate they can be turned on/off seperatly. A great advantage in my opinion.
Then again your opinion on the best part set security can be seen here where you would rather put a PiR on EE insted of Access.
So is it better to have an MC as one zone or 2?

altor

Speaking from experience and testing systems, they can all vary 3-5 minutes. As always people can have different experiences with different systems but 90 on a powermax system is not correct. If you set the system and walk in front of the motion it will not activate for 3-5minutes. I have tested it on the Powermax.
Yes two zones is always good. It is more a case of having to set them up on two zones rather than setting them on one zone in the powermax system. If they are set up on one zone in the powermax system (dual zone) then the system will arm with an open window. So instead of setting the system up you make the customer omit a zone from the system. That is not setting it up for them. What setting do you set the zone up on in the powermax system if you want PiR set up Access to Entry exit in Part Set ?

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Speaking from experience and testing systems, they can all vary 3-5 minutes.

If I tested them & they took that long I'd replace them as faulty.
What did you do?

altor wrote: »

As always people can have different experiences with different systems but 90 on a powermax system is not correct. If you set the system and walk in front of the motion it will not activate for 3-5minutes. I have tested it on the Powermax.

Again , my experience is 90 seconds. If you wish to prove me wrong feel free

altor wrote: »

Yes two zones is always good. It is more a case of having to set them up on two zones rather than setting them on one zone in the powermax system. If they are set up on one zone in the powermax system (dual zone) then the system will arm with an open window.

Another reason to use 2 zones. Why would any installer set them up differently?

altor wrote: »

So instead of setting the system up you make the customer omit a zone from the system.

Not sure what you are saying here. Part set options are set up and customised to the customers requirements. The system has the ability to omit any sigle zone at any given time. Whats that got to do with part set??
and how is that

altor wrote: »

That is not setting it up for them.

altor wrote: »

What setting do you set the zone up on in the powermax system if you want PiR set up Access to Entry exit in Part Set ?

Give me a shout if you wan't it set up for you. I won't charge you a call out. Sure then again, its not that long ago you didn't know this could be done on a CS350.:eek:

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

If I tested them & they took that long I'd replace them as faulty.
What did you do?

Told you already, they are not faulty, it is just the system they are on, like the powermax. 90seconds is wrong.

altor wrote: »

What setting do you set the zone up on in the powermax system if you want PiR set up Access to Entry exit in Part Set ?

Not asking for a call out, just want you to confirm the setting you use on the Powermax system to allow this setting

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Told you already, they are not faulty, it is just the system they are on, like the powermax. 90seconds is wrong.

So its the powermax system not the Visonic device?

altor wrote: »

Not asking for a call out, just want you to confirm the setting you use on the Powermax system to allow this setting

Zone type is Interior follower is for access and Part Guard.
Delay 1 & Delay 2 is for Entry Exit. Have you not said you tested these devices.?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

altor wrote: »

Told you already, they are not faulty, it is just the system they are on, like the powermax. 90seconds is wrong.

So its the powermax system not the Visonic device?

The sensors go into sleep mode. The panel does not pick them up. No sleep mode on the HKC.

KoolKid wrote: »

Zone type is Interior follower is for access and Part Guard.
Delay 1 & Delay 2 is for Entry Exit. Have you not said you tested these devices.?

Have you tested Access to E.E?

Interior follow is for an access zone.
What type do you set them up for Access to E.E?

KoolKid

Home delay..
Thought you would know that. ..

altor

Never used it, where is this set up?

KoolKid

Zone type.

altor

No zone type called home delay in the engineer manual

KoolKid

Talk to Andy if you need help.

altor

I know Andy very well, just pointing out there is no zone description of home delay in the manual.

KoolKid

Verified it with him Today.

altor

If it is there it should be in the zone types in the engineer manual
I will check a system tomorrow and confirm.

KoolKid

Here you go.


Hope this helps.

torrevieja

Starting world war 3

KoolKid

There are some differences between the 2 . But people are being baffled with this 2 wire thing. Its a new technology (well newish) but in reality there is very little difference. I'm not convinced unless I see batteries lasting 4 years or more. Other than than there is nothing major in features to the end user so I wouldn't be trying to push it as a selling point.

PS Proof of 90 second sleep time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63FPXaK5kX4

altor

torrevieja wrote: »

Starting world war 3

More and more manufacturers are moving with the times, leaving older technology behind

Another option with the HKC sensors is wiring in extra openings. They can cover alarm and tamper from the wire free device. The keyfobs have a secure code unset feature meaning rather than just pressing a button to disarm the system the code has to be entered to turn off the alarm on the keyfob. Two part sets on the system also.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Another option with the HKC sensors is wiring in extra openings..

Is that sensors or just contacts?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Is that sensors or just contacts?

Analyzed on wire free inertia/contacts and just wired contacts on the wire free contacts.

KoolKid

TBH thats a plus I wasn't aware of.

Cadzer

KoolKid wrote: »

Is that sensors or just contacts?

Both sensor and contacts are analyzed and you can adjust Pulse and gross for each RF device on a zone by zone bases.

altor

Cadzer wrote: »

Both sensor and contacts are analyzed and you can adjust Pulse and gross for each RF device on a zone by zone bases.

Thanks Cadzer, did not realize it could be done on the contacts also.
Confirmed with HKC today.

John Kelly of

I have been installing Quantum up untill recently when I started using Visonic Powermax Complete. I think the Quantum is great but I could not ignore the difference in price.
The fact that you can wire in additional shock sensors to an rf shock with quantum is good and If you have a big double window and you use quantum rf mc plus wired mc = 55+11=66 as opposed to 2 wireless shocks with visonic = 88 saving 22 euro but you do have to use a bit of extra labour and trunking on the window which isn't the nicest thing in the world.
However in the average job the difference is about 100 euro saving in favour of Visonic and that isn't even counting the extra keyfob. As for the keyfob code option I don't think that is a big deal as noone could be bothered typing in codes to keyfobs anyway.

One question for you guys who are using Visonic longer than me. If you don't calibrate the Visonic shocks that means they are on maximum sensitivity right? If that is the case I don't think they are very good as you have to wallop the window to get a response as far as I can see. Am I missing something here?. Also what is the story with pulse count and Visonic shocks? Do they do this at all? do they only recognize gross?

Also as far as I know the battery life in the Quantum wireless external siren is only 18 months if you get the light to flicker every 5 seconds whereas Visonic tech support told me it is 3 years for Visonic with the light flickering every 5 seconds. When the new Visonic system is capable of taking shocks in a few months it will have battery life far in excess of quantum in all devices including 8 years in wireless external siren.

KoolKid

I was at some training with the new Power G systems from Visonic last week.
With Batterys of 5-8 years it certinly looks like the way to go.

altor

John Kelly of wrote: »

I have been installing Quantum up untill recently when I started using Visonic Powermax Complete. I think the Quantum is great but I could not ignore the difference in price.
The fact that you can wire in additional shock sensors to an rf shock with quantum is good and If you have a big double window and you use quantum rf mc plus wired mc = 55+11=66 as opposed to 2 wireless shocks with visonic = 88 saving 22 euro but you do have to use a bit of extra labour and trunking on the window which isn't the nicest thing in the world.
However in the average job the difference is about 100 euro saving in favour of Visonic and that isn't even counting the extra keyfob. As for the keyfob code option I don't think that is a big deal as noone could be bothered typing in codes to keyfobs anyway.

One question for you guys who are using Visonic longer than me. If you don't calibrate the Visonic shocks that means they are on maximum sensitivity right? If that is the case I don't think they are very good as you have to wallop the window to get a response as far as I can see. Am I missing something here?. Also what is the story with pulse count and Visonic shocks? Do they do this at all? do they only recognize gross?

Also as far as I know the battery life in the Quantum wireless external siren is only 18 months if you get the light to flicker every 5 seconds whereas Visonic tech support told me it is 3 years for Visonic with the light flickering every 5 seconds. When the new Visonic system is capable of taking shocks in a few months it will have battery life far in excess of quantum in all devices including 8 years in wireless external siren.

There is a price difference. Most people have a Broadband also so adding a filter to the powermax also adds expense. I for one give a customer the option to choose which system they want installed. Most times it works out about €50 in the difference. Depending on the customer it could go either way. The sensors do need to be calibrated. This is also to learn in any back ground noise which can cause activation's. Adding a second battery on the Powermax bell will double the battery life on the bell. There are two batteries used in the battery pack to keep the light flickering every 5 seconds, adding the second battery pack will keep the light going for 3-5 years.

KoolKid

They are saying a second battery in a Power G wireless bell witll give you 8 + years. Thats as good as wired.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

They are saying a second battery in a Power G wireless bell witll give you 8 + years. Thats as good as wired.

Looks very impressive. They will be putting it up to HKC when the shock is released.

KoolKid

Lets hope so. They need a bit of competition to get those prices down.;)

altor

That is for sure