The FA Premier League - BSkyB, BT, and Setanta win Irish rights 2013-2016

p.oconnor

Hi Lads,

I was wondering as there talks in England that Al Jazeera could challenge sky for television rights why we in Ireland don't get access to more premier league matches as throughout the world broadcasters show matches which are not broadcast here, I know the number of matches are limited in England to keep up attendances but why aren't any Irish broadcaster showing these matches as we are in a completely different jurisdiction.

Jesus Shaves

Because they can't afford the broadcasting rights

snaps

p.oconnor wrote: »

Hi Lads,

I was wondering as there talks in England that Al Jazeera could challenge sky for television rights why we in Ireland don't get access to more premier league matches as throughout the world broadcasters show matches which are not broadcast here, I know the number of matches are limited in England to keep up attendances but why aren't any Irish broadcaster showing these matches as we are in a completely different jurisdiction.

we are in a different juristriction when it counts and another when it doesnt. its all changing now though, as all these extra EPL matches will soon be a thing of the past. Its all about money, nothing more or nothing less. Im sure if an Irish TV provider came up to bid for more EPL rights and extra matches, it would be squashed by the big fish in the pond, Sky.

p.oconnor

darokane wrote: »

Because they can't afford the broadcasting rights

But are the rights actually up for sale to Irish broadcasters?

p.oconnor

snaps wrote: »

we are in a different juristriction when it counts and another when it doesnt. its all changing now though, as all these extra EPL matches will soon be a thing of the past. Its all about money, nothing more or nothing less. Im sure if an Irish TV provider came up to bid for more EPL rights and extra matches, it would be squashed by the big fish in the pond, Sky.

Wouldn't it be very awkward for sky as they would have to create a new Irish channel, say for the match between United and West Brom at the weekend which was broadcast across Europe except here and the UK

snaps

darokane wrote: »

Because they can't afford the broadcasting rights

If your talking about EPL rights, yes they can afford the rights (Al Jazzera). I fear the thing is if another broadcaster got the rights (Which they wont do as BskyB are in the EPL pockets) it will only cost the consumer more. Sky already have too many sports rights now, so thus have the monopoly.

I for one would welcome a breath of fresh air in the sports broadcasting world, but alias i highly doubt it will happen.

Jesus Shaves

p.oconnor wrote: »

But are the rights actually up for sale to Irish broadcasters?

They are, Rte used to show Saturday 3pm games, Setanta have rights to games.

Jesus Shaves

snaps wrote: »

If your talking about EPL rights, yes they can afford the rights (Al Jazzera). .

Al Jazeera and RTE are 2 different stations

theoneeyedman

darokane wrote: »

p.oconnor wrote: »

But are the rights actually up for sale to Irish broadcasters?

They are, Rte used to show Saturday 3pm games, Setanta have rights to games.

Yes setanta show the 3 pm Saturday game as part of Irish rights package afaik

p.oconnor

darokane wrote: »

They are, Rte used to show Saturday 3pm games, Setanta have rights to games.

Yes i know about the 3PM matches but some matches like the United/West Brom was at 2:00 on Sunday and the Tuesday/ Wenesday nights next week are to be shown in Finland and Norway why not here?

Jesus Shaves

p.oconnor wrote: »

Yes i know about the 3PM matches but some matches like the United/West Brom was at 2:00 on Sunday and the Tuesday/ Wenesday nights next week are to be shown in Finland and Norway why not here?

Because none of the Irish broadcasters have bought the rights to them games

mike65

Irish TV shows live football on Friday (LOI) Tuesday (CL), Wednesday (CL) and Thursday (EL) if it was suggested they give over another 2-3 hours for a weekend game it would not fly.

p.oconnor

darokane wrote: »

Because none of the Irish broadcasters have bought the rights to them games

Surely be to christ one of them could get there act together and broadcast the international English feed, no panels, camera etc ..nice and simple

p.oconnor

mike65 wrote: »

Irish TV shows live football on Friday (LOI) Tuesday (CL), Wednesday (CL) and Thursday (EL) if it was suggested they give over another 2-3 hours for a weekend game it would not fly.

Id probably give up the late late and Fair city for a good game of EPL

snaps

with all that is happening with EPL soccer rights. The big clubs will still get the revenue and the smaller clubs will not. Its all kicking off now in the UK over TV rights and public places showing foreign broadcasters, which apparently are affecting stadium attendances. Unfortunately the EPL/FA haven't realised that we are in a recession and still want all their cake to eat!

icdg

p.oconnor wrote: »

But are the rights actually up for sale to Irish broadcasters?

No. Broadcasting rights for the Premier League work differently in Ireland to the rest of the world.

Six of the seven live rights packages on offer to Irish broadcasters are identical to the six live rights packages in the UK. These cover Saturday lunchtime, Saturday teatime, Sunday 2pm, Sunday 4pm, Monday nights and midweek games when they are played, but **do not** include Saturday 3pm kickoffs (which the Football Association does not allow to be shown in the UK). These packages are currently - and since the Irish rights started being sold separately, have always been - held by the same broadcasters that hold the rights to these packages in the UK - that is to say, five of the packages are held by British Sky Broadcasting Group plc and one package is held by ESPN Inc.

The seventh live package consists of a package of 32 Saturday 3pm games (one on each game week played on a Saturday) and 1 Sunday 4pm game (on the last day of the season). This package is held by Setanta Sports.

There are no other packages of games available to Irish broadcasters. The rights to the games not shown on TV are simply not available for Irish broadcasters to purchase. Like it or lump this is the way the Premier League has decided to sell the Irish rights. Effectively, it is structured towards keeping Ireland as part of the UK broadcasting territory for the Premier League while allowing them to make some extra money from selling the rights to one 3pm game each week. You can guarantee that given the close relationship between Sky and the Premier League there won't be any appetite from either party to make Ireland a fully separate market.

p.oconnor

icdg wrote: »

No. Broadcasting rights for the Premier League work differently in Ireland to the rest of the world.

Six of the seven live rights packages on offer to Irish broadcasters are identical to the six live rights packages in the UK. These cover Saturday lunchtime, Saturday teatime, Sunday 2pm, Sunday 4pm, Monday nights and midweek games when they are played, but **do not** include Saturday 3pm kickoffs (which the Football Association does not allow to be shown in the UK). These packages are currently - and since the Irish rights started being sold separately, have always been - held by the same broadcasters that hold the rights to these packages in the UK - that is to say, five of the packages are held by British Sky Broadcasting Group plc and one package is held by ESPN Inc.

The seventh live package consists of a package of 32 Saturday 3pm games (one on each game week played on a Saturday) and 1 Sunday 4pm game (on the last day of the season). This package is held by Setanta Sports.

There are no other packages of games available to Irish broadcasters. The rights to the games not shown on TV are simply not available for Irish broadcasters to purchase. Like it or lump this is the way the Premier League has decided to sell the Irish rights. Effectively, it is structured towards keeping Ireland as part of the UK broadcasting territory for the Premier League while allowing them to make some extra money from selling the rights to one 3pm game each week. You can guarantee that given the close relationship between Sky and the Premier League there won't be any appetite from either party to make Ireland a fully separate market.

Thanks for the information, I partly guessed that there had to be some reason behind this, its actually disgraceful and unfair to the Irish broadcasters and Irish EPL fans who cannot afford to travel to see the games, BskyB must be behind this surely the premier league would benefit from extra revenue that would be generated. With all these European laws, regulations and free trade how is this acceptable as we are in an entirely different jurisdiction to where the games are actually played.

Minstrel27

It's a ridiculous situation that leads to the top 2 not being shown on television at all. It is all very draconian from the Premier League. The least they could offer is live online coverage for a price as a lot of people watch exclusively online anyway.

p.oconnor

Sent an Email to the premier league asking them to explain why we are not treated like the rest of europe ....

Dear ..,

Thank you for your email.

As you are aware Sky and ESPN broadcast the same matches in Ireland as the UK but we also sell one Saturday 3pm match per week to Setanta Ireland.

Thank you for your feedback.

Kind regards,

Supporter Services

very helpful and detailed response ...

Elmo

IMO sporting rights on pay TV services need to be sold on a per subscription base. In other words Sky, Setanta and ESPN have the same games and it is up to the viewer to choose which package is the best. This can be down to coverage, price, analysis etc. Whomever gets the most subscriber base pays the most. The companies sort out the best deal they can from the rights holders. The rights holders may request €200 per household and €3000 per venue (depending on size) annually. (Don't dispute the figures I haven't thought them through fully, that fee would depend on many factors).

icdg

Won't happen. Exclusivity is what broadcasters are willing to pay the big bucks for. Non-exclusivity drives down what a broadcaster is willing to pay. That's why very few sports rights are sold on a non-exclusive basis (which is why the new deal for Formula One, which started today is a very unusual example of a non-exclusive arrangement).

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

Won't happen. Exclusivity is what broadcasters are willing to pay the big bucks for. Non-exclusivity drives down what a broadcaster is willing to pay. That's why very few sports rights are sold on a non-exclusive basis (which is why the new deal for Formula One, which started today is a very unusual example of a non-exclusive arrangement).

Should really bring up the price they pay. The Rights Holder sets their target. They place the minimum they are willing to take from the Broadcaster. The Rights holder take money based on levels of subs taken from the broadcasters. Either brings in more viewers due to the competition placed in the market or doesn't effect the rights holder in anyway. Broadcasters range from RyanAir type (pay for the Sound as extra ) to Sky (Great sports coverage!).

It doesn't work in a situation involving Free-to-Air services. It doesn't work for deals like The Masters and F1. The events must be exclusively pay TV.

But F1 is a good example do you go with UPC and receive both BBC coverage and Setanta Coverage or do you choose Sky with BBC coverage and Sky coverage. Perhaps a good test case study. (However the rights have already been bought).

OldRio

What fresh hell is this?
Spend yet more Irish money on broadcasting foreign soccer?

p.oconnor

OldRio wrote: »

What fresh hell is this?
Spend yet more Irish money on broadcasting foreign soccer?

I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep if by chance to show premiership soccer the likes of Fair City, ICA Boothcamp, Craig Doyle live, the late late, Rachel Allens easy meals, fergal quinns retail therapy and that utter pile of ****e TALIFORNIA (must I honestly continue) were discontinued.

I could honestly sit down and watch the likes of Liverpool v QPR last week happy and contented that those utterly stupid programmes were sacrificed for a night of "foreign soccer"

Elmo

p.oconnor wrote: »

I could honestly sit down and watch the likes of Liverpool v QPR last week happy and contented that those utterly stupid programmes were sacrificed for a night of "foreign soccer"

I would rather broadcasters supported "Irish Soccer" First. But then the FAI would also have to do that and Irish people to get behind Irish teams.

OldRio

p.oconnor wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep if by chance to show premiership soccer the likes of Fair City, ICA Boothcamp, Craig Doyle live, the late late, Rachel Allens easy meals, fergal quinns retail therapy and that utter pile of ****e TALIFORNIA (must I honestly continue) were discontinued.

I could honestly sit down and watch the likes of Liverpool v QPR last week happy and contented that those utterly stupid programmes were sacrificed for a night of "foreign soccer"

I do not watch any of that tosh you mentioned. Far to much of that rubbish and far to much foreign soccer. It is foreign, you know.
I wonder what the cost is for RTE to broadcast a foreign countrys league games ?

p.oconnor

OldRio wrote: »

I do not watch any of that tosh you mentioned. Far to much of that rubbish and far to much foreign soccer. It is foreign, you know.
I wonder what the cost is for RTE to broadcast a foreign countrys league games ?

The thing is they do not show any other forreign countrys league except limited premier league highlights.... thats the problem im having.

And with the issue of supporting the Irish league, RTE recently agreed to broadcast the most amount of games in one season then ever before... and can anyone realistically try an convince me that they wouldn't get a huge audience and raise significant revenue from advertising if they were to broadcast the premier league exclusively.

Minstrel27

OldRio wrote: »

I do not watch any of that tosh you mentioned. Far to much of that rubbish and far to much foreign soccer. It is foreign, you know.
I wonder what the cost is for RTE to broadcast a foreign countrys league games ?

It's amazing that they would cater to a wider audience. Isn't it.

Elmo

Minstrel27 wrote: »

It's amazing that they would cater to a wider audience. Isn't it.

It is amazing that neither ITV or BBC have thought of that.

p.oconnor

I wonder is there a sneaky agreement between the premier league, sky and all the other broadcasters that whatever package they win in the UK they will automatically win it in Ireland to prevent cross broadcasting and save them all a headache in setting up an individual channel for the republic.

Wouldn't you love if you had the money behind you to set up a tv channel and ruffle a few feathers and steal the big 4.00 premier league games from sky.... I can only dream i surpose

afatbollix

No Sky buy the rights for UK and Ireland


Setanta tryed and failed and that was in celtic tiger times!
Setanta could buy other packages today for Ireland but it would be too expensive!

p.oconnor

afatbollix wrote: »

No Sky buy the rights for UK and Ireland


Setanta tryed and failed and that was in celtic tiger times!
Setanta could buy other packages today for Ireland but it would be too expensive!

Ya but they probably still have a deal together so they dont have to go to the cost of setting up a different channel.

Ya but Setanta did have the rights to the current games on ESPN, so it can be done, always thought myself that Setanta would be in a lot better position if it went FTA and went down an Eurosport route, gaining them wide exposure though Saorview and the likes, would increase advertising revenue hugely.

channelsurfer2

it was reported at the time that the price espn/sky paid for the irish rights was 80million pounds for a 3 year deal. the irish times reported that the setanta rights went for 3 t0 4 million but then the irish independent noted it was significantly less for the setanta rights and that tg4 almost outbid setanta.
anyway i cant see setanta finding 8million for irish rights never mind 80 million. it could spell the end of setanta if the premier league do insist on selling european wide rights as i couldnt see sky agreeing to sub licence the 3pm saturday matches to setanta.

p.oconnor

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

it was reported at the time that the price espn/sky paid for the irish rights was 80million pounds for a 3 year deal. the irish times reported that the setanta rights went for 3 t0 4 million but then the irish independent noted it was significantly less for the setanta rights and that tg4 almost outbid setanta.
anyway i cant see setanta finding 8million for irish rights never mind 80 million. it could spell the end of setanta if the premier league do insist on selling european wide rights as i couldnt see sky agreeing to sub licence the 3pm saturday matches to setanta.

So 138 matches for €80 million ... about €580,000 per game... i dont think setanta are in profit by €580,000 still though if these were exclusive to one broadcaster including pubs it should have no problem covering them costs with advertising alone

Minstrel27

Elmo wrote: »

It is amazing that neither ITV or BBC have thought of that.

I don't see what the BBC or ITV have to do with Irish broadcasting rights. Would you please expand on your post.

p.oconnor

Well maybe UTV and BBC NI but you couldn't rely expct them to bid on an island wide basis especially with both of them being FTA so presumally this would dramatically push up the price payed for rights.

Where do TV3 stand on showing any decent standard of sport, apart from the champions league and a few GAA games they are totally inept of showing any sport... too busy showing the likes of talifornia i surpose.


I wonder what would happen to the rights in Ireland if the premier league sold the rights on a pan-european basis as reported below

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/scudamore-considers-tv-rights-sale-3056096.html

icdg

p.oconnor wrote: »

I wonder is there a sneaky agreement between the premier league, sky and all the other broadcasters that whatever package they win in the UK they will automatically win it in Ireland to prevent cross broadcasting and save them all a headache in setting up an individual channel for the republic.

Well, the only possible observation I can make on that is, where live rights to the Premier League have been sold to a particular broadcaster in the UK, the same broadcaster has always somehow managed to acquire the rights to the same games in Ireland.

There are a lot of changes coming to Premier League broadcasting at the end of this contract period (which has one more season left on it). There may be a pan-European deal but the problem there is that the one pan-European sports broadcaster in operation (Eurosport) wouldn't have the money to buy the rights. A joint bid by the three Sky-branded companies (who have a varying degree of a common shareholder in News Corporation, but very little operational integration beyond sharing a name and logo) with the possible involvement of Canal Plus, would cover the main European territories (including Ireland). What would happen in territories not covered by such a deal I don't know, though I presume the successful bidder would have the option of sublicencing the rights.

One thing though, I can see coming, is the FA Premier League playing less and less matches in the traditional Saturday 3pm slot. If the next deal is pan-European, it won't cover these games (which can't be shown in the UK due to FA policy), the logical outcome for the Premier League is to stop playing matches on Saturday at 3pm. I remember one Saturday earlier in the year there was a mere three games at 3pm. Now that was one extreme, but may be a look at the future. Unfortunately the big casualty from this is likely to be Setanta for whom the Saturday 3pm game is its main selling point.

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

Unfortunately the big casualty from this is likely to be Setanta for whom the Saturday 3pm game is its main selling point.

I'd love to know their subscriber numbers.

p.oconnor

Elmo wrote: »

I'd love to know their subscriber numbers.

Well I surpose with Setanta Ireland being free on UPC it dramatically pushes up numbers, all I know is they do not want a customer to leave and will do almost anything to keep you, which is sound enough but you would have to wonder about the future if they were to loose the premier league.

Elmo

p.oconnor wrote: »

Well I surpose with Setanta Ireland being free on UPC it dramatically pushes up numbers, all I know is they do not want a customer to leave and will do almost anything to keep you, which is sound enough but you would have to wonder about the future if they were to loose the premier league.

Free To Air, or create a new schedule. Setanta only get 0.3% to 0.6% of a share, while Sky Sport News gets 0.7 to 1% share. An EPG listing of 105 only helps if your providing a good schedule. Get rid of Setanta Sports 1. Look at your content build from Setanta Ireland and then maybe you have a sound business plan.

Guessing Setanta HD also helps with UPC.

p.oconnor

icdg wrote: »

Well, the only possible observation I can make on that is, where live rights to the Premier League have been sold to a particular broadcaster in the UK, the same broadcaster has always somehow managed to acquire the rights to the same games in Ireland.

There are a lot of changes coming to Premier League broadcasting at the end of this contract period (which has one more season left on it). There may be a pan-European deal but the problem there is that the one pan-European sports broadcaster in operation (Eurosport) wouldn't have the money to buy the rights. A joint bid by the three Sky-branded companies (who have a varying degree of a common shareholder in News Corporation, but very little operational integration beyond sharing a name and logo) with the possible involvement of Canal Plus, would cover the main European territories (including Ireland). What would happen in territories not covered by such a deal I don't know, though I presume the successful bidder would have the option of sublicencing the rights.

I wonder how the packages would be divided out if something like this happenned would the owner of the rights decide the cost for each country and the number of games that could be shown and would the premier league still pair us with the UK in relation to the packages.

STB

p.oconnor wrote: »

I wonder how the packages would be divided out if something like this happenned would the owner of the rights decide the cost for each country and the number of games that could be shown and would the premier league still pair us with the UK in relation to the packages.

It wont happen.

To put it in perspective for you, Singapore an island with a similar population to Ireland paid €80million for the rights for 2007-2010. In that case they went to a company called Starhub. Starhub have subsequently been outbid for the 2010-2013 rights by Singtel. How much did they pay ? €240m.

snaps

bugger me. Thats stupid money.

Elmo

STB wrote: »

It wont happen.

To put it in perspective for you, Singapore an island with a similar population to Ireland paid €80million for the rights for 2007-2010. In that case they went to a company called Starhub. Starhub have subsequently been outbid for the 2010-2013 rights by Singtel. How much did they pay ? €240m.

What did ESPN and Sky pay for their rights? And Setanta for their 3pm Games?

channelsurfer2

Elmo wrote: »

What did ESPN and Sky pay for their rights? And Setanta for their 3pm Games?

80million sterling sky/espn(see my previous post)... setanta around 4million.

p.oconnor

STB wrote: »

It wont happen.

To put it in perspective for you, Singapore an island with a similar population to Ireland paid €80million for the rights for 2007-2010. In that case they went to a company called Starhub. Starhub have subsequently been outbid for the 2010-2013 rights by Singtel. How much did they pay ? €240m.

Have you got a source for this figure? if true its a staggering amount of mula, the only think is they could also have alot more matches for that €240m, they obviously show the packages that arnt available to us and might also have multiple games over different channels at the same time.

From reading articles over the internet it is a possiblity that the next packages across England/Ireland will be spread across SKY, ESPN, Al Jazera, Apple, Setanta.

That would be madness if they all continued to be subscription channels

snaps

p.oconnor wrote: »

From reading articles over the internet it is a possiblity that the next packages across England/Ireland will be spread across SKY, ESPN, Al Jazera, Apple, Setanta.

That would be madness if they all continued to be subscription channels

It would just make piracy and internet streaming more attractive, thats the problem we face now. Its all getting priced far too much, the normal public (Including pub landlords) cant take it anymore.

Elmo

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

80million sterling sky/espn(see my previous post)... setanta around 4million.

That seems like very little, I would have thought that the value of such right would be higher. The setanta figure seems about right, perhaps even excessive in comparison to the Sky/ESPN figure.

I assume the Landlady in that pub has also made sporting organisations re-think how they sell to a pan-European audience.

channelsurfer2

Elmo wrote: »

That seems like very little, I would have thought that the value of such right would be higher. The setanta figure seems about right, perhaps even excessive in comparison to the Sky/ESPN figure.

I assume the Landlady in that pub has also made sporting organisations re-think how they sell to a pan-European audience.

at the time the euro was worth just over 60p sterling so it worked out at over 110million euro for 3 years or just under 40million euro a year for a population of 4 million. again this in only newspaper reports it was never officially confirmed that that was the price but to put in perspective rte's budget for sport each year is around 40 to 50million euros .. bbc sports is around 360 million pounds a year with a target of 15% reduction due to the licence fee freeze.

Elmo

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

at the time the euro was worth just over 60p sterling so it worked out at over 110million euro for 3 years or just under 40million euro a year for a population of 4 million. again this in only newspaper reports it was never officially confirmed that that was the price but to put in perspective rte's budget for sport each year is around 40 to 50million euros .. bbc sports is around 360 million pounds a year with a target of 15% reduction due to the licence fee freeze.

I thought you were giving the UK and Ireland figure. Do we know what ESPN and Sky spent on FA rights in total?

shadowcomplex

icdg wrote: »

Well, the only possible observation I can make on that is, where live rights to the Premier League have been sold to a particular broadcaster in the UK, the same broadcaster has always somehow managed to acquire the rights to the same games in Ireland.

There are a lot of changes coming to Premier League broadcasting at the end of this contract period (which has one more season left on it). There may be a pan-European deal but the problem there is that the one pan-European sports broadcaster in operation (Eurosport) wouldn't have the money to buy the rights. A joint bid by the three Sky-branded companies (who have a varying degree of a common shareholder in News Corporation, but very little operational integration beyond sharing a name and logo) with the possible involvement of Canal Plus, would cover the main European territories (including Ireland). What would happen in territories not covered by such a deal I don't know, though I presume the successful bidder would have the option of sublicencing the rights.

One thing though, I can see coming, is the FA Premier League playing less and less matches in the traditional Saturday 3pm slot. If the next deal is pan-European, it won't cover these games (which can't be shown in the UK due to FA policy), the logical outcome for the Premier League is to stop playing matches on Saturday at 3pm. I remember one Saturday earlier in the year there was a mere three games at 3pm. Now that was one extreme, but may be a look at the future. Unfortunately the big casualty from this is likely to be Setanta for whom the Saturday 3pm game is its main selling point.

why does such a stupid policy exist?