Discussion forums are 'legalised subversion of the State'

Scofflaw

Classically idiotic statement about us and politics.ie from Fianna Fáil Senator Marc McSharry:

Just following on from the theme that Senator O Murchu mentioned with our national holiday coming up this weekend I think that advertising standards should also be looked at at this moment in time when one can buy a tshirt in the Penneys store at the moment which simply says "Irish today drunk tomorrow". I don't think that such merchandise should be permitted.

Can I.. Can I.. The main reason I wanted to make a point was to call for a debate on the media in general ah leader, similar to the themes that have been raised to do with the Presidential debate or whatever. But I think the problem eh nationally is we preside over a media that we constantly praise for their integrity but the reality is we don't have any reportage in this country what we have is not newspapers but viewspapers. We don't have a national broadcasters that reports news we have a national broadcaster who reports a complexion they wish to place on the facts that are promoted per day. And it doesn't matter who's in government frankly whether it's Fine Gael and Labour whether it's Fianna Fáil amd Sinn Fein.


I do have a question I'm calling for a debate in the context of that eh I'm making a point. It's the same in eh we all want free speech when people are tweeting or texting or online where we have Boards.ie and Politics.ie, for me frankly that doesn't amount to free speech what it amounts to is legalised subversion of the state. I think it's fundamentally wrong. What we need is somebody some media that reports that facts because as we often praise eh the people of this country for being amongst the most educated in the world and my god they're prepared to make their own decision based on the facts if presented not as presented by the editorial staff within RTE or whatever news media and finally can I say and this is a very worrying issue and I intend to raise it privately with the leader and all should be aware there's a very major news agency in this country in charge of quite a few regional newspapers who have instructed that there staff not to print any news releases from members of Seanad Eireann and I think that is something we need to address.


Senator Marc McSharry in the Seanad during the Order of Business

Trumps Quinn's comments, anyway. On the other hand, idiotic or not (and the remark is really quite inexplicable), it represents something of a worrying trend at the moment.

subversively,
Scofflaw

meglome

Scofflaw wrote: »

Classically idiotic statement about us and politics.ie from Fianna Fáil Senator Marc McSharry:

Trumps Quinn's comments, anyway. On the other hand, idiotic or not (and the remark is really quite inexplicable), it represents something of a worrying trend at the moment.

subversively,
Scofflaw

It's quite obvious our politicians are not used to and not enjoying all the contacts made to them recently by large numbers of the public. It just shows the mentality of some of these politicians. We really need to be more careful about who we elect (though I appreciate in this instance Marc McSharry is a senator).

old hippy

Irish politicians in collision with 21st century shocker!

J K

:rolleyes: You lot wouldn't overthrow your local sweet shop. :pac:

Manach

Looks like we are breaching the exception to Article 40 in the constitution,
"
  i.            The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.
The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.
"
If we are subversives, thus part of a vast boards-wing conspiracy - then can I haz the secret decoder ring?

VinLieger

God they are a bunch of old foggies in there arent they? If you cant handle internet criticism get out of politics.

meglome

I had a call from a representative of John Lyons (TD Dublin North West) half and hour ago as I was complaining about not getting a reply on the Boards SOPA campaign. (Very impressed by his guy, have to say). So while I was on I asked were McSharry's comments indicative of the attitude in both houses generally. They seemed actually embarrassed by what Marc McSharry had to say and did not support it.

Hogzy

They are just upset because this is one forum where the state has absolutely ZERO control over people expressing their opinions.

If boards.ie is subversive then so is Joe Duffy i suppose. But seeing as RTE is a state run entity that could never be the case.

What an absolute fool of a politician.

RoundyMooney

All that is troubling gombeens like this guy, is that the media is now no longer santised and tightly controlled by a small group.

It's similiar to the calls (either from vested mainstream media interests, or disgruntled politicians) for the disregarding of social media input to broadcasts.

Suck it up, McSharry.

fcussen

I sent this to marc.macsharry@oireachtas.ie . Will see if anything happens

Dear Senator MacSharry,

I am writing to you regarding your execrable comments on order of business in the Seanad today, where you claim that websites such as boards.ie and politics.ie are subversive of the irish state.

I had previously held the impression that the arrogant dynastic culture of your party had been tempered by the meltdown you faced in the general election of 2011, but this seems not to be the case. As contemptible as your comments were, the motivation behind them is clear - it is frightening to you and your party that there are forums for political discussion in Ireland that are not mediated by Fianna Fáíl cronies such as Miriam O'Callaghan and Ryan Tubridy. One need only look to Willie O'Dea's statement in the 1990s that the Navan Man sketches on Today FM's "Last Word" show were a "threat to democracy" for a similar example of this.

As appalled as I am by your Mubarak-style disdain for criticism and open discussion, it is not merely your failure to understand the most basic principles of free speech and civil society that is so shocking. Your comments - coming as they do at a time of economic crisis in this country - also betray as distrust of the Information Technology sector that is one of the few healthy parts of our economy at the moment. Much as Ireland was made to look foolish in the eyes of many potential investors in the areas R&D and technology by having its previous Minister for Science endorse a book attacking evolutionary theory, so could your comments potentially undermine investment in this vital part of our economy.

For these reasons I would like to see a full public apology for your comments.

Yours Sincerely,

Mr.Micro

Is the guy for real? So people should listen to the likes of him or Pravda type rag to be told what their opinion should be. This guy would never be elected by normal voters, and he is in the Seanad because he was appointed. Get real McSharry.....FF need you like a hole in the head.

Wibbs

Ah right Marc McSharry the offspring of Ray, yet another attempted Oirish political dynasty that sadly didn't fizzle out. Precisely the sort of useless individual that should have their imagined heads on pikes if we as a nation had any sense. Of course he's in the Seanad. The stagnant backwater where old careers go to die and get paid handsomely to do so. Given his background would he not be well versed in this level of bullshít from an early age? Maybe his dad played him some "subversive" mix tapes of his own he made back in the day? Neck like a jockeys bollocks for someone like him to use the word subversive without it catching in his throat.

Ted Mosby

Ignore it. FF have 18 TDs of 166 and who cares how many Senators?

Solair

I'd just like to point out that discussing things online and being openly critical of Government is part of a free democracy.

On the the other hand, running a country so badly as to bankrupt it, then underwriting vast private losses and then handing the all authority over to outside forces i.e. the IMF and EU could be somewhat more considered as subverting the state!

Not that Fianna Fail would ever do anything like that...

Does he think he's a senator in China or something?

RichieC

Good man(?) fcussen. very eloquently put, I admit I considered writing him but my "go **** yourself" would have been marginally less so

johnnyskeleton

boards.ie and politics.ie should send a letter to him threatening to sue for defamation unless he retracts his statements.

oscarBravo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

boards.ie and politics.ie should send a letter to him threatening to sue for defamation unless he retracts his statements.

I think pointing and laughing is a more appropriate reaction, to be honest.

Dr Galen

words really do fail me sometimes when it comes to certain members of the political class in this country. Ill-informed and baseless statements like the above, don;t even deserve repeating.

A site like this, that has a forum dedicated to helping people with serious real-life sh1t (PI and RI), where numerous relationships, marriages and even children have come from the interactions here and which acts as a source of information about all sorts of things to all sorts of people, is somehow a threat to the state? Give me a break....

I hope you read this thread Mr McSharry, and then accept my invitation to come here, register, actually take part in some of the discussions we have, and engage with the electorate, instead of sitting in your ivory tower and spouting sh1t.

/rant

The Corinthian

Either what is said on these fora constitutes libel, or it is not.

If it is, the onus is upon those who believe themselves wronged to bring legal action (or at least correct falsehoods) against the site.

If it is not, then however critical it becomes fair comment with regards to the elected representatives of Ireland.

Neither is it plausible to suggest that Boards.ie or Politics.ie are subject to intentional bias. Certainly those posting will fall into certain demographics that are more likely to be computer literate, for example, but such is the organic nature of the Internet that to attempt to impose a bias would be akin to herding cats.

The senator should take care when making such cavalier accusations of subversion, as ultimately as a member of the opposition any criticism of the government by him could equally be accused of subversion, or for that matter what appears to be an attempt to stifle open debate, with his comments, could easily be interpreted as a subversive attempt to attack the democratic nature of the State.

Nonetheless, it is probably time that someone reminds him that fora, such as Boards.ie or Politics.ie, that are open to anyone with an Internet connection and a rudimentary ability to string a sentience together, are probably far more representative of the electorate than the Cumman-based chicken and chips circuit that appears to select the Irish political class who run for office.

And that on that basis he should ultimately remember the one thing that has always been true of all republics; Vox populi, vox dei.

gizmo555

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

boards.ie and politics.ie should send a letter to him threatening to sue for defamation unless he retracts his statements.

They can't sue. He has parliamentary privilege for anything he says in the Senate.

Ours (and most others) States were founded on subversion. It's one thing to welcome it when you don't have power, but it doesn't quite work when you do have power.

Questioning things are good. Being subversive is good. It makes us smarter, more creative and more innovative (that word the government love to throw around, but have no idea what it actually means, or possibly frightened by it). We learn to think outside the box, and control our own destiny. Something politicians would rather us not do.

Solair

I just wish that parliamentarians who don't have a bulls notion about online stuff would stay away from commenting on it.

I recently stumbled across international coverage of how an Irish Government minister was suggesting that we should censor the internet to prevent anorexic accessing certain websites.

While those websites might not be very psychologically beneficial, it didn't seem to enter into her head that this was technically impossible, illegal and blatant censorship at a whim.

We introduced blasphemy laws that received a lot of confused international attention too. Most of which was totally inaccurate, as they're basically unenforceable.

So, on the one hand we're touting ourselves as this wonderful place to locate all your data centres, do your R&D etc while at the other side of it you've got politicians ranting and raving about internet censorship and attacking online media.

This stuff invariably gets picked up abroad and it also invariably gets picked up incorrectly as there's a widespread belief that Ireland's extremely conservative and religious.

These knee jerk 'censor it' responses really just have to stop!

Otherwise, we aren't going to be a very internet-friendly location and it will cost us both inward investment and also encourage Irish web start-ups to locate in the United States instead, where freedom of speech is taken seriously!

MadsL

Emailed.

Senator, with regard to your recent idiotic statement in the Seanad vis

"I do have a question I'm calling for a debate in the context of that eh I'm making a point. It's the same in eh we all want free speech when people are tweeting or texting or online where we have Boards.ie and Politics.ie, for me frankly that doesn't amount to free speech what it amounts to is legalised subversion of the state. I think it's fundamentally wrong. "

Might I remind you of the words of a very wise politician...

“A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy. Citizens afraid of government is tyranny!”

― Thomas Jefferson

A man wise enough to amend a constitution to enshrine the rights of the people;

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

If you, Senator, fear the voice of the people as exercised on boards.ie or politics.ie; then I am content that all is as it should be. However, your pressing for suppression of the voice of the people is Jefferson's tyranny and to be vehemently opposed.

Speaking truth to power.

A regular boards.ie poster.

Also posted online at (this post)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

I think my post on the AH version of this thread still adequately sums up my feelings on the matter:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77575302&postcount=12

Dirk Gently

Ironically there's a good point in there, one which he immeadiatly kills at birth with his dillusional remarks about online forums. He is correct in that we have views papers as opposed to news papers. There is a need for a factual only news resource , one which in my opinion should exclude any form of PR imput or agenda setting. If we had such a resource perhaps FF wouldn't have manipulated public opinion so well for all those years.

What politicians seem not to get though is that the likes of boards is the virtual equivilent of a public meeting, or a chat in a pub. It's a public meeting place that isn't restricted by geograpical constraints though, one where the minutes of the meeting are public and anyone of any view can join the debate and counter or support arguments. Its basically citizens exercising freedom of speech in a transparent public manor.

Contrary to what the senator thinks, I actually think boards, joe duffy and facebook actually empower the state and the status quo as they provide an outlet for people to vent and provide an illusion of actually doing or achieving something without actually doing anything at all. Liking a campaign page on facebook or writing a post here seems to be enough to satisfy peoples desire to change anything. It "feels" like we're actually doing something.

In any case, I'm open to anything which counters agenda setting views papers in favour of rational debate. The senator claims to be of the same view as me but unfortunetly has his head up his arse. I've no doubt that just like Quinn, what he really wants is message control as opposed to limiting agendas in the media. I have a feeling his own Partys agenda setting is perfectly fine with him and that he simply doesn't like dissenting voices.

The Corinthian

What perplexes me is that his comments were largely about perceived bias in the media. It is one thing to be critical of the agendas pushed by the fourth estate, but those outlets afforded by the Internet don't actually operate in the same way and so you really cannot make the same accusation.

Of the media, I can understand his frustration if such accusations such as the refusal of some to report - or reproduce, as his meaning was obscure - press releases from Seanad Eireann. However, just because it is a press release from Seanad Eireann, does not make it newsworthy or in the public benefit to reproduce. Indeed, one could equally argue that if more that was produced by the Seanad was, there would be little talk of abolishing it.

But of the expression of vox populi on the Internet as being 'subversive' I am truly taken aback with. He failed to explain how he defines this subversion and this leads me to feel that popular criticism falls into that category for him.

Irish politics has for far too long been subject to little scrutiny. Anyone with any experience of how party politics in Ireland operates would be familiar with the goings on, behind closed doors, where cliques vie against each other with little regard for the all-to-often apathetic public. It's probably why we have developed a crypto-peerage where it comes to political office, with far too many generations from too few families inheriting the 'party ticket'.

A little bit more 'subversion' would have been welcome in the past in relation to Haughey and other public officials, TBH. If this is the sort of subversion that the senator is talking about, then regrettably he was born in the wrong decade.

RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Agreed but Marc McSharry has just demonstrated that many at the top of society still sling to that world.

The traditional Irish fear of change is what piqued McSharry to make such an audacious claim. Men with such an outlook belong in a backwater bubble town where they can have an edited version of reality dictated to them by the local priest. I greatly wish that all such people would find such a place and ensconce themselves therein.

johnnyskeleton

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think pointing and laughing is a more appropriate reaction, to be honest.

gizmo555 wrote: »

They can't sue. He has parliamentary privilege for anything he says in the Senate.

Or maybe his defence is that boards.ie does not permit irony anymore.

FreudianSlippers

bluewolf wrote: »

I think my post on the AH version of this thread still adequately sums up my feelings on the matter:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77575302&postcount=12

Can you repost here for the... lets just say, after hours challenged.

I would imagine that there are two issues afoot here:

1 - He probably gets attacked 24/7 with particularly harsh (Perhaps harsher than normal due to his association with FF) vitriol on twitter/facebook etc. Pretty standard for a political entity these days. And as such should be moderated by either himself or a volunteer (If it's bothering him so much).

2 - He's a square. He hasn't a clue about what the internet is, or what it can be. Rather than attempting to use the internet as a vehicle for positive publicity - i.e. acting in a subversive manner himself, to counter the negativity - he is reacting with fear and anger. Not through any fault of his own, he probably just lacks a capacity for keeping up with the technological changes of the last few years.

dpe

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I would imagine that there are two issues afoot here:

1 - He probably gets attacked 24/7 with particularly harsh (Perhaps harsher than normal due to his association with FF) vitriol on twitter/facebook etc. Pretty standard for a political entity these days. And as such should be moderated by either himself or a volunteer (If it's bothering him so much).

2 - He's a square. He hasn't a clue about what the internet is, or what it can be. Rather than attempting to use the internet as a vehicle for positive publicity - i.e. acting in a subversive manner himself, to counter the negativity - he is reacting with fear and anger. Not through any fault of his own, he probably just lacks a capacity for keeping up with the technological changes of the last few years.

Then he shouldn't be in politics anymore. We're past the stage where some boyo can go on about "not understanding that computer stuff"; social media is being used to bring down governments.

I can't decide if this guy really is as breathtakingly stupid as he seems, or he actually said it for the lulz. He's not that old.

Hayte

If you want reasoned discussion anywhere, the facts have to be readily available to the public and the people having the discussion need to be trained in how to use facts. The harder you make this, the more likely you are going to have people talking shop and playing fast and loose with speculation in the absence of fact.

The solution is not to limit discussion - it is to make it more open, more inclusive and to ensure that the critical tools necessary to hold reasoned discussion are accessible to as many people as possible. I picked up many of those tools in higher education so I feel very strongly about the lack of access imposed by hiking third level fees.

When it comes to politics then it too has to be open and inclusive otherwise openly debating politics becomes a pointless guessing game. This should never be used as an argument to limit public debate. This is an argument for public access to information - the right information, not disinformation or political spin.

I dislike the idea that citizens talking on an open forum can in any way be "subversive" to government. If anything it is the other way around. Where the ire of the electorate is directed at government and members of parliament over a perceived lack of transparency, a long history of political spin, corruption and private interests then it is government and members of parliament who are subversives. They only exist in the capacity they do because the electorate demands it. I would rather talk about political action based on facts and truths but the process is so opaque that it isn't always possible and the facts are not always made clear and accessible by those that stand to lose something from them being made public.

It's all out of context and we are very mean:

http://www.thejournal.ie/subversive-website-comments-taken-out-of-context-ff-senator-384082-Mar2012/

Speaking to TheJournal.ie today Mac Sharry denied that he was attacking Boards.ie or Politics.ie saying that: “There will be people who choose to interpret this as a personal attack on fora. It certainly isn’t that. It’s the fact that we need to look at all of these areas. I am pro-free speech.

“What I meant and the whole train of the debate was on standards in the media relative to the misuse of kinds of social media and online media as a reputable source that is unverified. In that context, the misuse of them by traditional media can be subversive.”

Dirk Gently

bluewolf wrote: »

It's all out of context and we are very mean:

http://www.thejournal.ie/subversive-website-comments-taken-out-of-context-ff-senator-384082-Mar2012/

So his actual gripe is with traditional media not verifing their sources? If so then I'm in agreement with him. It goes further than unverified tweets though, it extends to reproduced copy from 3rd partys which go unchecked and product placement and agenda setting. Still don't see his point as regards to fora except in the case of traditional media reproducing a post and presenting it as fact, again a problem for traditional media to deal with.

I doubt he'd care if the FF presidential candidate wasn't sucker punched on the front line, or if it was FF doing the sucker punching, or if Gallagher had successfully managed to gloss over his involvement with FF as his misleading campaign was almost successful in doing.

The Corinthian

bluewolf wrote: »

It's all out of context and we are very mean:

http://www.thejournal.ie/subversive-website-comments-taken-out-of-context-ff-senator-384082-Mar2012/

Ahhh... I see, it's not really that he's in any way suggesting that Internet fora are subversive. It's that he cannot articulate himself competently.

Nonetheless, if the media are using 'bogus tweets' then they are essentially reporting false information and thus open to legal action under existing liable laws. A politician wronged by such misinformation could sue the media body in question without the need to impose censorship laws.

MadsL

Dirk Gently wrote: »

Ironically there's a good point in there, one which he immeadiatly kills at birth with his dillusional remarks about online forums. He is correct in that we have views papers as opposed to news papers. There is a need for a factual only news resource , one which in my opinion should exclude any form of PR imput or agenda setting. If we had such a resource perhaps FF wouldn't have manipulated public opinion so well for all those years.

http://www.factcheck.org/

Irish version needed. Give boards.ie mantra of linkage required (or Pics or GTFO) perhaps it could be crowdsourced here?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

expectationlost

rte weren't trying to use an anonymous comment, they were trying to use sinn fein account that they didn't check, so it wasn't about anonymous online elements subverting the course of the debate it was rte state broadcaster not doing its job and doublechecking

DeVore

meglome wrote: »

It's quite obvious our politicians are not used to and not enjoying all the contacts made to them recently by large numbers of the public. It just shows the mentality of some of these politicians. We really need to be more careful about who we elect (though I appreciate in this instance Marc McSharry is a senator).

Good.

munkifisht

While the eventual point is totally bonkers, the viewspapers one is bang on the money. Objective journalism is dead, and in its place are a bunch of overworked underpaid column jockeys who just regurgitate the muck that is fed to them in press conferences or on the About us section of any organisations website. How many times have you been interested in a story and tried to find out more about it through Google News Search, only to see that every publication has spammed the exact same slop. I would love to see a a paper or a journo working in this country who was willing to make enemies of a "Democratically" elected representatives and put some about of time and effort into making a real change in this country. I can only imagine how much unreported corruption is being pursued while we along with the rest of the Global economy flounder in this depression.

MadsL

munkifisht wrote: »

While the eventual point is totally bonkers, the viewspapers one is bang on the money. Objective journalism is dead, and in its place are a bunch of overworked underpaid column jockeys who just regurgitate the muck that is fed to them in press conferences or on the About us section of any organisations website. How many times have you been interested in a story and tried to find out more about it through Google News Search, only to see that every publication has spammed the exact same slop. I would love to see a a paper or a journo working in this country who was willing to make enemies of a "Democratically" elected representatives and put some about of time and effort into making a real change in this country. I can only imagine how much unreported corruption is being pursued while we along with the rest of the Global economy flounder in this depression.

I'd thank that twice if I could. Oh look, I just did.

meglome

DeVore wrote: »

Good.

Hi ******,

Thanks for your e-mail. I know ***** from my office was speaking with you yesterday about the e-mail we missed from you. Again, I would like to apologise for that and to say to please stay in touch on this or any other issue and we will do our best to answer any questions you may have.

On the point below from Senator McSharry, I don't see social media or online forums as subversion of the state. I would have some issues about persons posting comments about others anonymously on forums. I don't, however, see this as a threat to the state. It is more a matter of what is an appropriate way to engage on issues. As a public representative, I have experience of being spoken about in this context so I'm obviously looking at it in this way but I believe we need to have a real debate about online engagement.

Thanks again for contacting me ****** and I hope that this gives some idea of my thoughts on this area. Please feel free to contact me again on this or any other issue.

With best wishes,

John Lyons TD
Dublin North-West

01 618 3280
johnlyonstd.blogspot.com
facebook.com/JohnLyonsDublinNorthWest
twitter.com/JohnLyonsTD

Since I was on to him anyway about the copyright statutory instrument I thought I'd ask about this too. He makes a very fair point, you only have to look over on the Journal to see just how over the top people can be. Though that is generally not the case on boards.ie or at the very least people are stopped.

FreudianSlippers

meglome wrote: »

DeVore wrote: »

Good.

Hi ******,

Thanks for your e-mail. I know ***** from my office was speaking with you yesterday about the e-mail we missed from you. Again, I would like to apologise for that and to say to please stay in touch on this or any other issue and we will do our best to answer any questions you may have.

On the point below from Senator McSharry, I don't see social media or online forums as subversion of the state. I would have some issues about persons posting comments about others anonymously on forums. I don't, however, see this as a threat to the state. It is more a matter of what is an appropriate way to engage on issues. As a public representative, I have experience of being spoken about in this context so I'm obviously looking at it in this way but I believe we need to have a real debate about online engagement.

Thanks again for contacting me ****** and I hope that this gives some idea of my thoughts on this area. Please feel free to contact me again on this or any other issue.

With best wishes,

John Lyons TD
Dublin North-West

01 618 3280
johnlyonstd.blogspot.com
facebook.com/JohnLyonsDublinNorthWest
twitter.com/JohnLyonsTD

Since I was on to him anyway about the copyright statutory instrument I thought I'd ask about this too. He makes a very fair point, you only have to look over on the Journal to see just how over the top people can be. Though that is generally not the case on boards.ie or at the very least people are stopped.

The 'journalism' and comments on the journal make me want to not live in this world any longer. Utterly **** through and through.

munkifisht

munkifisht wrote: »

While the eventual point is totally bonkers, the viewspapers one is bang on the money. Objective journalism is dead, and in its place are a bunch of overworked underpaid column jockeys who just regurgitate the muck that is fed to them in press conferences or on the About us section of any organisations website. How many times have you been interested in a story and tried to find out more about it through Google News Search, only to see that every publication has spammed the exact same slop. I would love to see a a paper or a journo working in this country who was willing to make enemies of a "Democratically" elected representatives and put some about of time and effort into making a real change in this country. I can only imagine how much unreported corruption is being pursued while we along with the rest of the Global economy flounder in this depression.

You're talking as if journalism hasn't always been this way. Think of the last century, how many stand-out moments of brutally honest journalism can you think of? Look at how our own political scandals broke over here in the 90's.

It will always take a discerning mind to read between the lines when it comes to journalism. News media is sold as a product - that's why TV3 has a hit with Vinny B. during the week, despite the fact the show has an obviously left leaning slant. I don't always agree with Vinny, but give me his show any day over most other political slots on TV - pure entertainment.

The Corinthian

meglome wrote: »

He makes a very fair point, you only have to look over on the Journal to see just how over the top people can be. Though that is generally not the case on boards.ie or at the very least people are stopped.

That the quality of journalism in Ireland is pretty shabby is certainly nothing new. Most appear to be little more than hacks, regurgitating press releases. Others are actively pushing agendas and will manipulate the facts to do this.

Then there is the question of competence and, as an example, the Izevbekhai fiasco, which saw the head of RTÉ's Radio Investigative Unit get completely taken in - and then keep his job.

Indeed, when McSharry claimed that Seanad press releases were being wilfully ignored by the media, my first thought was to suggest he does not copy protect them in future. From what I can make out any competent Irish journalists generally leave for the UK, leaving us with the dross.

However that he dragged online fora, blogging, etc into this frankly shows a significant lack of understanding upon his part - presuming his later clarification was genuine.

However I did note this part of Lyons' response:

I don't, however, see this as a threat to the state. It is more a matter of what is an appropriate way to engage on issues. As a public representative, I have experience of being spoken about in this context so I'm obviously looking at it in this way but I believe we need to have a real debate about online engagement.

If we are at a point where we may decide what is an appropriate or inappropriate way to "engage on issues", then we're in trouble. In reality, the Internet is not the wild west it claims to be. Even if a poster claimed "politician X is a crook", it would quickly be censored by the moderators of Politics.ie or Boards.ie. And this is because they are still held accountable to the same laws of libel as every other 'publisher'.

And if he's bothered by the (limited) anonymity of the Internet, all I can say is he's probably never had to take part in a hustings; a democratic tradition than is the bane of modern PR spin doctors.

All of which is moot, because what will "a real debate about online engagement" really achieve? Unless he hasn't noticed Pandora's box was opened a while back and short of introducing laws that, most likely, widen the definition of libel so as to censor online debate, there's not much he can do about it.

MadsL

Response

Many thanks for taking the time to contact me regarding your concerns over my contribution to the Order of Business in the Seanad, 13 March 2012.

On the evening of the 13th March I released a press statement on this issue, which clarified the context in which this statement was made. Please find attached a copy of this statement for your records.

I also spoke with Marc Coleman, that evening on his radio show "Coleman at Large" on News Talk.

Yesterday, Wednesday 14th March I was contacted by Hugh O'Connell of The Journal.ie and, again, clarified that the statements I made were taken out of context.

I apologise for any confusion caused.

Kind regards,
Marc

Senator Marc Mac Sharry
Seanad Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare St
Dublin 2

Fianna Fáil Press Office
Senator Marc Mac Sharry

13 March 2012

Fundamental Review of Media Standards Required – Mac Sharry

There needs to be a fundamental review of media standards in Ireland and clear guidelines must be established on how journalists and editorial staff in print and broadcast media use content generated anonymously on online or social media platforms, according to Senator Marc MacSharry.

“I am an advocate of free speech and I believe everyone should be facilitated in expressing their opinions on public affairs. Social and online media has an important role to play in Irish society as a means for citizens to engage, communicate and have their voices heard.

“Equally important is the need for citizens to be able to rely on the factual accuracy and impartiality of major news organisations, particularly the national broadcaster. In that context, the BAI's finding that RTÉ's Frontline programme used a false tweet from an unverified source in a Presidential debate raises some very serious issues.

“As the traditional media try to adapt to the challenges posed by social and online media, there is an increasing risk that facts become secondary to reaction and opinion. As a result, there is a growing sense that the news and current affairs output of traditional media are becoming driven by secondary reaction, with insufficient emphasis being placed on the primary facts.

"It is this trend, in my view, which allows a major national debate for the highest office in the land to become dominated by an anonymous and unsubstantiated contribution from a social media site. No one with an interest in a healthy democracy and a sustainable media sector will welcome this development.

"It is understandable that in an increasingly competitive media environment, the pressure to be first with a story grows. However, it is essential to the health of our democracy that the basic facts continue to be given the scrutiny and respect they deserve.

"It is incumbent on the established media to quickly demonstrate that the lessons of the Frontline debate are recognised and that they demonstrate they have the systems and values in place to make sure that our national debate is not influenced by anonymous, unverifiable and frequently malicious online comment.”

ENDS

Elaine O’Meara
Fianna Fáil Press Office
Leinster House
Dublin 2

fcussen

Dear ***********,

Many thanks for taking the time to contact me regarding your concerns over my contribution to the Order of Business in the Seanad, 13 March 2012.

On the evening of the 13th March I released a press statement on this issue, which clarified the context in which this statement was made. Please find attached a copy of this statement for your records.

I also spoke with Marc Coleman, that evening on his radio show "Coleman at Large" on News Talk.

Yesterday, Wednesday 14th March, I was contacted by Hugh O'Connell of The Journal.ie and, again, clarified that the statements I made were taken out of context.

I apologise for any confusion caused.

Kind regards,
Marc

Senator Marc Mac Sharry
Seanad Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare St
Dublin 2

Shea O'Meara

It's quite simple. They, (both the incompetent and the corrupt alike) do not want information leaking out and/or being discussed by the general public. The whole 'new media' bashing is for two reasons; 1) it enables the flow of information like never before. 2) They can cuddle up to the older generations or those not media savvy by claiming it's rubbish and nonsense in a 'you've all sorts' Bertie chosen stutter moments way.

later12

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

It's quite simple. They, (both the incompetent and the corrupt alike) do not want information leaking out and/or being discussed by the general public.

I'm not sure that's got any basis.

I wonder how many political leaks do not emanate from elected politicians.

I wouldn't read into this too deeply. McSharry has clarified his previous statement, and his clarified version seems perfectly reasonable to me. I read the entire Senate transcript and it really was a very brief affair. It sounds like his comments were not previously prepared and that the Cathaoirleach's interruption as well as interjection by other Senator's may have broken the context of the Senator's comments.

It's considerably easier to be taken out of context when engaged in verbal dialogue as McSharry was in the Senate.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2012/03/13/00004.asp

munkifisht

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're talking as if journalism hasn't always been this way. Think of the last century, how many stand-out moments of brutally honest journalism can you think of? Look at how our own political scandals broke over here in the 90's.

It will always take a discerning mind to read between the lines when it comes to journalism. News media is sold as a product - that's why TV3 has a hit with Vinny B. during the week, despite the fact the show has an obviously left leaning slant. I don't always agree with Vinny, but give me his show any day over most other political slots on TV - pure entertainment.

You might be right, but I just have a feeling that there was a time when films like All the Presidents Men, or Good Night and Good Luck were based on real events, but perhaps I am just being overly romantic.

I might be a cynic very guilty of thinking that Enda Kenny relied more on his publicist when getting elected than his political advisers and that day by day politics and the media become more and more entwined and more concerned with pushing each others agendas that with pushing the agendas of the people. I think I'm just a romantic cynic.