Discrimination by Aer Lingus

haz

Aer Lingus has a new policy of 'language tests' to check that EU foreigners can speak English before being allowed into Ireland on their flights - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...313153577.html

A GREEK telecoms manager who has lived in Cork with her family since 1998 was forced to do a language test in English and Greek before being allowed to board an Aer Lingus flight home to Ireland from Barcelona recently.

“In the age of biometric passports, such illogical and discriminatory ‘tests’ are entirely unacceptable. I was only targeted because of my nationality and no serious attempt was made to check that I was indeed flying back home, where I came from only six days previously,” she said

It doesn't say if Irish proficiency was an option, although the check-in staff sound like complete goons who wouldn't have any themselves.

seamus

Going by the article it would appear to be a policy of the handling agents rather than AL themselves.

Given that the Greek version of form says, "Where are you going to in England?", I suspect that this test is something used by the agent for another airline, but they got confused and thought that Ireland == England and issued the test.

Best thing AL can do now is fire the agents and let people know that the agent issued the test without their guidance.

haz

seamus wrote: »

Going by the article it would appear to be a policy of the handling agents rather than AL themselves.

It is an Aer Lingus policy, but does look like the local check-in staff were not very good at it. Aer Lingus is liable for the costs of repatriating non-EU nationals who get into the Common Travel Area, so it is effectively policing the UK border on behalf of the UK Borders Agency. Here is the English version of their test: http://imgur.com/nUHx5

dudara

Definitely not a Consumer Issue. Moved to Travel, but perphaps legal implications of this need to be assessed.

@haz Please don't start multiple threads on the same topic. You should have waited for a moderator to move your original thread.

dudara

haz

This behaviour by Aer Lingus has stirred up a lot of anger in Greece today with stories in a lot of newspapers:

http://www.tovima.gr/society/article/?aid=448210
http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/54007
http://www.iefimerida.gr/
http://www.capital.gr/News.asp?id=1438181
http://www.imerisia.gr/article.asp?catid=12333&subid=2&pubid=112834249
http://www.madata.gr/epikairotita/world/179169.html
http://www.thebest.gr/news/index/viewStory/116855

Most are calling it "racist treatment" and they have a lot more detail on the story.

munchkin_utd

seamus wrote: »

Going by the article it would appear to be a policy of the handling agents rather than AL themselves.

Given that the Greek version of form says, "Where are you going to in England?", I suspect that this test is something used by the agent for another airline, but they got confused and thought that Ireland == England and issued the test..

elaborating that further, the UK fines the airline heftily for each person arriving in the UK illegally, at least 2000 pounds per incident which might be why a handling agent is so weary of people on dodge greek passports going "to england"

Irish Aris

it's interesting though. ..
I am Greek, currently living in Ireland. Aer Lingus is the only direct flying option between Athens and Dublin.
If my parents want to come visit me, will they be able to do so using an Aer Lingus flight? They don't speak any English at all. . .

haz

munchkin_utd wrote: »

elaborating that further, the UK fines the airline heftily for each person arriving in the UK illegally, at least 2000 pounds per incident which might be why a handling agent is so weary of people on dodge greek passports going "to england"

Actually the fine is €5,000 euro per invalidly documented passenger. How does that relate to what Aer Lingus did to this woman? She is a doctor from Cork and handed over a current biometric passport. She speaks perfect English (hear her Morning Ireland on http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2012/0312/media-3224932.html) and was travelling with her family. What is 'dodgy' in that picture? The Aer Lingus staff must be cretins.

The actual test they used is crazy (http://imgur.com/nUHx5) and gives the impression that our borders and safety are being managed by the most incompetent, bigoted and misguided fools. It is a crude method intended to allow airline staff to harass 'suspects' (read 'black people'). It is the same mentality that lead Americans to shoot Sikhs because they thought anyone in a turban must be a suicide bomber.

AlphaVita

Irish Aris wrote: »

it's interesting though. ..
I am Greek, currently living in Ireland. Aer Lingus is the only direct flying option between Athens and Dublin.
If my parents want to come visit me, will they be able to do so using an Aer Lingus flight? They don't speak any English at all. . .

Yassou Ari , this is certainly a worrying event. There are a few of us here who are of either a Greek Mother or Father but not fluent in Greek yet hold Greek passports as it is our right to do so . I know some who would have failed this test. Not a good PR move for Aer Lingus thats for sure.

haz

AlphaVita wrote: »

Yassou Ari , this is certainly a worrying event. There are a few of us here who are of either a Greek Mother or Father but not fluent in Greek yet hold Greek passports as it is our right to do so . I know some who would have failed this test. Not a good PR move for Aer Lingus thats for sure.

She made the same point - her mother lives in Greece and doesn't speak English, while her daughter was born in Ireland and doesn't speak Greek. (Must make for hilarious Easter - Χριστός Ανέστη! Καλή Επανάσταση! Just like Irish Easter, but without the guns.)

Aer Lingus PR is having a bad hair day, having booked Neil Prendeville's restaurant (Boardwalk Bar on Lapp’s Quay) to launch their new Brussels route, but cancelled it when they realised the potential - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/route-launch-diverted-over-dj-scandal-187028.html

mikedragon32

haz wrote: »

She made the same point - her mother lives in Greece and doesn't speak English, while her daughter was born in Ireland and doesn't speak Greek. (Must make for hilarious Easter - Χριστός Ανέστη! Καλή Επανάσταση! Just like Irish Easter, but without the guns.)

Aer Lingus PR is having a bad hair day, having booked Neil Prendeville's restaurant (Boardwalk Bar on Lapp’s Quay) to launch their new Brussels route, but cancelled it when they realised the potential - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/route-launch-diverted-over-dj-scandal-187028.html

The story you link to has nothing to do with the topic. If the purpose of posting has now.become airline bashing, the thread will be closed.

haz

Carol Coulter has an update about the imposition of British immigration tests by Aer Lingus, and that Aer Lingus has suspended the use of them - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0315/1224313320328.html

Airline drops test for Greek travellers
AER LINGUS has suspended language testing of Greek citizens travelling with it as a result of the controversy surrounding the imposition of such a test on a Greek woman living in Ireland since 1998.
...
[Greek] ambassador, Constantina Zagorianou-Prifti said a Greek citizen “was confronted by your staff in Barcelona with unjustified and unfounded suspiciousness and hostility” and expressed the embassy’s “utmost concern and disappointment”.

It makes you wonder why Aer Lingus used the test on a passenger who had a valid biometric passport - their statement again says the process was to counteract "counterfeit and forged" ID cards and passports. Probably they are too stingy to buy biometric passport scanners.

AlphaVita

Im glad Aer Lingus has appologised and Im also glad the Greek embassy has become involved. Lets hope this is one of those cases where Aer Lingus was just being stupid and didnt realise what they were doing. This will be a lesson to Aer Lingus in future to make sure they know what is morally and legally acceptable. They really got out of their depth in this one and left themselves open to a huge legal case. If anything this will stop other Greek citizens going through the same issues ( hopefully ) .

schemingbohemia

A lot of people here getting the wrong end of the stick. Did you actually read the articles at all? It wasn't an English language test it was a Greek language test!

Obviously Aer Lingus and their agents were wrong to use it on a biometric passport. However, the facts are that there are a significant number of forged Greek passports being used by non-Greek speakers, that's why the test was introduced.

I'm not aware of it being used in Athens for flights from there, why would it as the local agents would be able to speak Greek and would know soon enough if a non-Greek speaker was using a fake Greek passport, it's being used in certain locations where Greek passports are being used by non-Greek speakers.

haz

schemingbohemia wrote: »

A lot of people here getting the wrong end of the stick. Did you actually read the articles at all? It wasn't an English language test it was a Greek language test!

I don't think anyone has the wrong end of the stick. Everyone seems perfectly well informed that she was ordered to complete an English Language Test and a corresponding Greek Language Test, which had the same answers (although in a different alphabet). There is a photograph of the two tests and the passport on the Aer Lingus check-in desk here http://imgur.com/z6FDm - this image is widely reproduced in the media, for instance http://news247.gr/kosmos/news/stop_sta_ratsistika_test_meta_ton_ekseytelismo_ths_ellhnidas.1691021.html ("Racist tests halted after humiliation of Greek woman").

There is a scan of the English Language Test that she was ordered to complete here http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101526#comment288421

Even if it had been just the Greek Test, it would still have been unreasonable discrimination on the grounds of ethnicity and nationality, as a number of MEPs are now pointing out to the European Commission.

ardmacha

Aer Lingus needs to get its act together. However the EU also needs to sort out things, if airlines are to be fined for illegal passengers. Fraudulent documentation is a crime and if required the police in Athens (or wherever) should check out any oddities. Half baked "tests" are not any help and Aer Lingus should not administer these.

haz

ardmacha wrote: »

Fraudulent documentation is a crime and if required the police in Athens (or wherever) should check out any oddities. Half baked "tests" are not any help and Aer Lingus should not administer these.

I absolutely agree with you. An important point, and one that Aer Lingus has repeatedly muddied, is that the documentation in this case, and the particular documentation issue that the tests are intended to address, is not false / fraudulent / fake / forged passports. The document was a genuine, recent, biometric EU passport.

The problem is to detect a genuine passport that is presented by an 'imposter' (the RALON and Frontex wording). Biometric EU passport and biometric scanners have a high level of confidence in these cases, but Aer Lingus has chosen not to deploy them. The language tests are a cheap alternative that allow check-in staff to use their judgement (or their prejudice) to decide whether a person presenting a genuine foreign passport is the rightful owner.

Language tests have no role in detecting fake / forged / fraudulent / false documents.

The idea that an Irish (or Spanish, or whatever nationality) desk clerk can perform the job of 'testing Greekness' is absurd and open to abuse - and was without doubt a degrading episode in this instance - but it is generally an open door to abusing people with the 'wrong' appearance. Frontex documents identify Asians and Africans as the target, and the language tests announce open season to abuse the rights of any person with an Asian or African appearance, which is racial discrimination.

haz

munchkin_utd wrote: »

elaborating that further, the UK fines the airline heftily for each person arriving in the UK illegally, at least 2000 pounds per incident which might be why a handling agent is so weary of people on dodge greek passports going "to england"

James Clarke (Aer Lingus Chief Executive's Office) today said "I am happy to confirm that their [sic] was no issue with you personally or with your passport" which comprehensively rules out the dodgy passport nonsense.

Chryssa Dislis has posted the full apology, statement and retraction on Indymedia at http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101526#comment288621

They seem to have interviewed her in the Huffinton Post, 'Language Test' Protester Wins Free Aer Lingus Flights with more detail about the discredited language tests at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/greek-language-test-prote_n_1354537.html

Irish Aris

Hello again guys.
Unfortunately I had a similar incident in the Budapest airport last week.

I arrived at Budapest on Wednesday and proceeded to the passport check. After the 2 ladies that were doing the check, looked at my passport intensely (and looking to each other too), they presented me with the questionaire on Greek language. I was travelling with a work colleague that is Hungarian who intervened, spoke to the lady in Humgarian telling her that we are close friends and travelling together. The test disappeared as quickly as it had appeared, and they simple asked her (not me) in Hungarian how long will I be staying and whereabouts.
I didn't have a very good look at the test but it was similar to the one that lady in Barcelona had. I avoided having a debate with them as I didn't want to cause any trouble to my friend, but I think that I will notify the embassy.
and to be honest, to me it didn't look as an Aer Lingus procedure, it looked more like standard airport security procedure.
That said, I didn't have any issues on the way back - either leaving Budapest or arriving at Dublin.
As we would say back home: καλά κρασιά. . .(that would roughly translate as "whatever. . ." in a sarcastic tone. . .)

haz

Irish Aris wrote: »

and to be honest, to me it didn't look as an Aer Lingus procedure, it looked more like standard airport security procedure.

The English and Greek tests in Barcelona were Aer Lingus procedure, which is acknowledged by the airline. They were originally developed by the British UK Borders Agency. Aer Lingus chose to use them for their flights from 'high-risk' countries to Britain and Ireland. One of the concerns with this procedure is that Aer Lingus has chosen to perform civilianised, privatised immigration checks on behalf of a foreign government.

You should notify your embassy if anything similar happens to you - and of course any Irish passport-holder (other than Mossad agents) should also highlight any restrictions placed on travel within the EU.

AlphaVita

Indeed all of these instances must be reported to the Embassy as without these examples its hard to monitor whats going on. The more people that highlight these the better it will be for fellow Citizens.

Irish Aris

I talked to the Embassy yesterday.
Apparently my case was a bit different, as it didn't happen on check-in, but during passport check, which is an immigration point. The embassy told me that at that stage, they are allowed to do it.
I guess it has to do with the whole idea that the Greek passport can be forged. . .or are we Greeks not very popular anymore???
Anyway, that's that then.
I will go to London next month, so it will be a good crash test.

Dodge

Presumably Aer Lingus didn't just pull this idea from thin air. Are other airlines/handling agencies performing similar tests on Greek passport holders? I'm not trying to suggest Aer Lingus are exempt from the criticism they have received, but just wondering if its a wider issue?

Do airlines like British Airways or BMI have the same 'restrictions'?

haz

Irish Aris wrote: »

I talked to the Embassy yesterday.
Apparently my case was a bit different, as it didn't happen on check-in, but during passport check, which is an immigration point.

This was the major issue with Aer Lingus - the civilian staff of a private company carried out an immigration check on behalf of a foreign government (and not the EU, but the British government, to which Ireland has no legal obligation).

However, even in the case of immigration officials, tests should not be targeted by ethnicity, 'race' or appearance. A test should be applied according to the credibility of the documents, not according to prejudiced assumptions about people who appear to be Asian, Middle Eastern or African. Racial profiling is never acceptable.

These 'language tests' do appear to be crude racial profiling, designed to permit prejudice and inappropriate discrimination. The fact that it harms genuine Greek (and Portuguese or Italian) travellers is a side-effect.

haz

Dodge wrote: »

Presumably Aer Lingus didn't just pull this idea from thin air. Are other airlines/handling agencies performing similar tests on Greek passport holders?

Aer Lingus have stated that they were provided with these tests by the UK Border Agency in 2011, so they must be a wider issue. They also stated that they apply to perceived 'high-risk' origins including Greece, Portugal and Italy. The passports are not in question, and are assumed to be genuine documents acquired by suspected non-EU migrants.

Neither Aer Lingus nor the UKBA will provide details of how passengers with genuine documents are selected for tests, and no airline includes these tests in its terms and conditions. Both Ireland and the EU have legislation prohibiting discrimination on grounds of race and ethnicity, as well as on the ground of nationality in Ireland.

AlphaVita

Irish Aris wrote: »

I talked to the Embassy yesterday.
Apparently my case was a bit different, as it didn't happen on check-in, but during passport check, which is an immigration point. The embassy told me that at that stage, they are allowed to do it.
I guess it has to do with the whole idea that the Greek passport can be forged. . .or are we Greeks not very popular anymore???
Anyway, that's that then.
I will go to London next month, so it will be a good crash test.

I dont think you will have any problems with UK to be honest. My Family travel alot to the UK from Greece and never have any problems.

Irish Aris

AlphaVita wrote: »

I dont think you will have any problems with UK to be honest. My Family travel alot to the UK from Greece and never have any problems.

yes, you're probably right. I was there in January and didn't have an issue. If I recall correctly, there was a different queue for people coming from Ireland (regardless of passports) and I think they didn't even check passports (not sure about that, but it was a very quick procedure in general)

AlphaVita

Irish Aris wrote: »

yes, you're probably right. I was there in January and didn't have an issue. If I recall correctly, there was a different queue for people coming from Ireland (regardless of passports) and I think they didn't even check passports (not sure about that, but it was a very quick procedure in general)

Indeed some UK airports just make you show your boarding pass if there is a central passport control. If not then as in Heathrow Airport you just walk out there is no passport control coming from UK/Ireland flights. They do of course have the right to Man those ''Police desks'' on entry into the bagagge hall but I have not seen that for a long time and that was more to do with counter terrorism.

haz

ardmacha wrote: »

Aer Lingus needs to get its act together. However the EU also needs to sort out things, if airlines are to be fined for illegal passengers. Fraudulent documentation is a crime and if required the police in Athens (or wherever) should check out any oddities. Half baked "tests" are not any help and Aer Lingus should not administer these.

It looks like Aer Lingus will be made to get its act together:

Leo Varadkar wrote:

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport

Ms Kathleen Lynch TD
Dáil Éireann
Kildare Street
Dublin 2

Dear Kathleen,

I refer to your letter and enclosures of 1 March 2012 concerning the difficulties encountered by Dr Chrysoula Ntisli while trying to board an Aer Lingus flight from Barcelona to Cork in January 2012.

The incident described is regrettable and the Department does not condone the manner in which Dr Ntisli was treated. However, as obligations on airlines regarding the inspection of passenger documentation are not regulated in air transport law I am not in a position to influence how the Aer Lingus or any other airline complies with their obligation in this regard.

I will forward a copy of your correspondence along with a copy of this reply to Mr. Christoph Mueller, Chief Executive Officer, Aer Lingus for direct reply to you regarding the steps to be taken by the company to prevent a similar situation arising in the future.

Yours sincerely,
Leo Varadkar TD
Minister for Transport Tourism and Sport

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101526#comment289546

ebbsy

There are machines in airports which can scan documents such as passports to see if they have been altered etc, are there none in Dublin airport ?

Somebody out there needs to wake up.

johnnyg2011

you do realise that the only airport with staff directly hired by aer lingus is dublin... all the agents in spain are hired by a handling agency .... i work for aer lingus an ive never seen nor heard of one of these test. and yes i work in checkin. i looked at the pictures posted of these test and the Agent is not wearing an AerLingus uniform it looks like service air.

We do passport control to a degree at checkin but it is based on visa requirements and the passengers ticket. the visa requirements is set out by immigration for each particular country. for example a Nigerian national traveling to Lagos will need a visa if the are transferring in Amsterdam even if the baggage is interlined they require a transit visa its our job at check in to make sure passengers have these visas. is it racist for me to ask for these documents simply because I see a Nigerian passport and know they require a visa?

In Dublin Airport i have never seen a greek (or any other nationality) language test. Spain as a country runs a tight ship in terms of false document and illegals crossing boarders. Therefore every passenger who travels to spain needs to provide APIS ... Spain is the only EU that requires this.

And the reason for the apology from Aer Lingus is more than likely down to the fact they employ the handling agency and are responsible for their action in relation to the airlines dealings

kerry4sam

@johnnyg2011 : Welcome to Boards

I have closed this thread here. Their was no need to resurrect this thread to post the reply you did, but Thanks for your input though.

Hope you enjoy your time posting on boards outside of doing some PR for Aer Lingus

Thanks,
kerry4sam