6 Nations v Heineken Cup

HappyBalance

Not sure what everybody else thinks but I was pretty bored watching the two 6N matches today....much prefer the HC in terms of quality. What u think?

phog

Two different competitions played by different teams, I love both but I also like the UBL and the Pro12. I know guys who only attend the UBL and Internationals, they've never really gone for the provincial teams and I know more fans who've never attended a club game and only a couple of internationals.

Bored today

dougieruggie

definite HC. Quality is so much better. And I get to watch Schmidt trained rugby teams instead of Kidney trained ones

cgpg5

HappyBalance wrote: »

Not sure what everybody else thinks but I was pretty bored watching the two 6N matches today....much prefer the HC in terms of quality. What u think?

And the Ireland match was actually good by 6 nations standards! HC any day of the week

HappyBalance

phog wrote: »

Two different competitions played by different teams, I love both but I also like the UBL and the Pro12. I know guys who only attend the UBL and Internationals, they've never really gone for the provincial teams and I know more fans who've never attended a club game and only a couple of internationals.

Bored today

I am really sick of this facade that Scotland and Italy are good teams and improving. This maybe so but my god the improvement is so slow.

Suggestions to make 6N better:

1. Relegate team who finishes last and they will replace the team who gets relegated the following season.

2. Actually present the team who comes last with a wooden spoon.

3. Introduce bonus points to the 6N.

MungBean

Poll fail I like them both the same.

I also dont understand how you could have been bored watching today's match. 5 tries not enough to entertain ya ?

cgpg5

HappyBalance wrote: »

I am really sick of this facade that Scotland and Italy are good teams and improving. This maybe so but my god the improvement is so slow.

Suggestions to make 6N better:

1. Relegate team who finishes last and they will replace the team who gets relegated the following season.

2. Actually present the team who comes last with a wooden spoon.

3. Introduce bonus points to the 6N.

Haha love this!

But relegation would never work. How would that help Italian rugby improve when they'd only (most likely) compete in the 6n every other year.

Bonus points has its pros and cons but I'm actually in favour of it.

Neil3030

Six Nations without question. I was a club and country man before I was a provincial man.

irishbucsfan

Format of the Heineken Cup makes for a better competition IMO.

Also the knockout games are more exciting and dramatic than any games in the 6N bar the big deciders. Have been to all Heineken knockout games since the Wasps game in '07 and I don't plan on missing any in future if I can help it.

Saying that, there is something extra you get from watching your country play. It's just that at the moment for me it's being outweighed by outdated conservative tactics and selections along with a pretty standard competition format.

HappyBalance

cgpg5 wrote: »

Haha love this!

But relegation would never work. How would that help Italian rugby improve when they'd only (most likely) compete in the 6n every other year.

Bonus points has its pros and cons but I'm actually in favour of it.

Yes I was thinking of that but there has to be a major disincentive to finish last. Maybe they could join Georgia, Spain et al in another tournament.

HappyBalance

MungBean wrote: »

Poll fail I like them both the same.

I also dont understand how you could have been bored watching today's match. 5 tries not enough to entertain ya ?

As much as I like to see IRE win,I much prefer seeing them beat a team which people respect. I think George Hook said that if he was Gray he would be embarrassed to play with that garbage.

phog

MungBean wrote: »

Poll fail I like them both the same.

I also dont understand how you could have been bored watching today's match. 5 tries not enough to entertain ya ?

Was it said up so that those that favoured both couldn't vote, why one way or the other, why not include UBL and the Pro12?

endabob1

There should be a play-off between the bottom side in the 6N and the winners of the second tier competition, if only to show that there is a prospect of relegation.

I've thought for some time that bonus points would be a good idea.

cgpg5

HappyBalance wrote: »

Yes I was thinking of that but there has to be a major disincentive to finish last. Maybe they could join Georgia, Spain et al in another tournament.

Still wouldn't help them. Its similar to the hurling (sorry for making this comparison) but didn't they try this and Antrim were relegated and ended up beating all round them the following year in the lower tier! Same would happen to Italy. Italy will improve and tbf this is their "unlucky year" as such in that they play their three toughest opponents away. Next year they play us, France and Wales at home which gives them a much better chance of beating them. Remember they bet France last year and could very easily have beaten us. The worry is that this is Scotland's "lucky year". They've been unlucky yes but still find themselves fighting wooden spoon again!

Love the physical wooden spoon presentation though- Here from RBS is so-and-so presenting Italy captain Sergio Parisse with a wooden spoon!

Neil3030

HappyBalance wrote: »

Yes I was thinking of that but there has to be a major disincentive to finish last. Maybe they could join Georgia, Spain et al in another tournament.

Surely the prospect of finishing last is enough disincentive to finish last? You think players like Parisse or Gray would care more about losing if they were threatened with relegation? I doubt it very much. They are professional athletes who take immense pride in representing their country and give it their all.

That their teams may not be improving is the fault of their organisation, from the national team coaches right down to the coaching at youth level. I don't see how humiliating the players by relegating them or publicly humiliating them with a wooden spoon ceremony would suddenly fix the far more profound problems keeping their team back.

phog

endabob1 wrote: »

I've thought for some time that bonus points would be a good idea.

I think for the BP to be used you'd really need a home and away competition as teams have 3 home and 2 away or 2 away and 3 away depending on the fixtures, looking at run of BPs in the H/C they are mainly scored by the home teams or when the opposition know they're out of the tournament.

I wouldn't be in favour of BP in the current 6Ns setup and I dont see where they'd get the time to add extra games.

corny

Whether its the better defences or the more conservative coaching i don't know but the International game bores me to tears these days.

Scotland are so poor its not funny.

The Italians totally lack conviction with ball in hand.

Saint Andre has the French playing by numbers.

Ireland box kick the ball to build attacks.

I genuinely hope the English build on the recent positives but they can be as frustrating as any when they revert to type.

Leaving Wales to play the only mildly entertaining rugby in the tournament.

The HC throws up drama and fair degree of quality from the top sides. Also watching a well coached Leinster team maximise their ability does it for me i'm afraid.

Richard Hillman

HappyBalance wrote: »

2. Actually present the team who comes last with a wooden spoon

Who else believed this actually happened when you were a youngun? Please tell me im not the only one

thomond2006

IMO this year's Six Nations has so far been a massive improvement over the last few years in terms of excitement and quality.

HEC is still better though, the quarter final weekend is my favourite of the year.

Deano7788

One issue I could see with introducing a points system similar to the Heineken is that, because you only play 5 matches, a team could win all 5 games without getting a bonus point and finish on 20 points, while another could win 4 and get 5 bonus points (4 4 try ones and one losing one) and finish on 21. Therefore, a team could win the Grand Slam but lose the championship.

phog

Deano7788 wrote: »

One issue I could see with introducing a points system similar to the Heineken is that, because you only play 5 matches, a team could win all 5 games without getting a bonus point and finish on 20 points, while another could win 4 and get 5 bonus points (4 4 try ones and one losing one) and finish on 21. Therefore, a team could win the Grand Slam but lose the championship.

While I'm against the BP system for the 6Ns you could introduce BPs for a team that win all their games and that would secure the Championship and the GS for them..

colman1212

phog wrote: »

While I'm against the BP system for the 6Ns you could introduce BPs for a team that win all their games and that would secure the Championship and the GS for them..

??

Quint2010

phog wrote: »

While I'm against the BP system for the 6Ns you could introduce BPs for a team that win all their games and that would secure the Championship and the GS for them..

Surely a BP system could mean a team winning the GS but NOT the Championship?..

Buceph

I'll take the Six Nations over the Heineken Cup, but I'll take the Pro12 during the Six Nations over the actual Six Nations. I much prefer seeing the new guys coming up through the teams and the guys fighting for Heineken places during the period when the bigger names are away.

phog

colman1212 wrote: »

??

Quint2010 wrote: »

Surely a BP system could mean a team winning the GS but NOT the Championship?..

As I said I'm not in favour of the BP system but something like the following could work.

The normal BP for a win/loss could mean a team that doesn't win all their games could top the table over a team that has won all theirs. To avoid this the 6Ns could bring in additional BPs for a team that goes through the tournament winning all their games, thus ensuring they actually win the GS and Championship.

Podge_irl

HappyBalance wrote: »

Yes I was thinking of that but there has to be a major disincentive to finish last. Maybe they could join Georgia, Spain et al in another tournament.

If the team who came last were relegated I guarantee it would do nothing to increase the quality of the games - it would just make them worse.

RMD

Deano7788 wrote: »

One issue I could see with introducing a points system similar to the Heineken is that, because you only play 5 matches, a team could win all 5 games without getting a bonus point and finish on 20 points, while another could win 4 and get 5 bonus points (4 4 try ones and one losing one) and finish on 21. Therefore, a team could win the Grand Slam but lose the championship.

"Technically" it could happen. But the odds of that are so overwhelmingly minute I could never see it happening.

desertcircus

I think we're being a little unfair on Italy - Brunel made it clear that he's not massively concerned with results this year or next. His aim is for the Italians to be a serious threat in two years' time, which is why the likes of Tobias Botes are being persisted with and why he has the Italian federation making noises about giving the two Italian HC spots to the likes of Viadana and Parma unless Treviso and Aironi start working to provide Italian players for the national setup and giving gametime in key positions to Italians. If they're still doing abysmally in another two years, then it might be fair to start criticising, but the team is going through a rebuilding phase and has been very clear about that.

Scotland, though, have no excuse. Something is horribly wrong with the Scottish setup and I don't think anyone knows how to fix it.

twinytwo

HappyBalance wrote: »

I am really sick of this facade that Scotland and Italy are good teams and improving. This maybe so but my god the improvement is so slow.

Suggestions to make 6N better:

1. Relegate team who finishes last and they will replace the team who gets relegated the following season.

2. Actually present the team who comes last with a wooden spoon.

3. Introduce bonus points to the 6N.

fail much???

Replace the relegated team with who?? georiga? russia?? only to have them hockied worse than italy??

HappyBalance

twinytwo wrote: »

fail much???

Replace the relegated team with who?? georiga? russia?? only to have them hockied worse than italy??

They would be replaced by the team who finishes in the second tier of European rugby, so be it if Russia, Georgia etc.

The relegation/promotion aspect will heighten the excitement and over the years the quality.

For example the Scotland v Italy match on Saturday would be much better if relegation was at stake imo.

Deano7788

RMD wrote: »

"Technically" it could happen. But the odds of that are so overwhelmingly minute I could never see it happening.

While I agree the chances of this are tiny, it would still need to be accounted for.

Weirdly, Eoghan Hickey has an article on this in Emerald Rugby where he advocates introducing the bonus point system and that it shouldn't matter if the Grand Slam winners don't win the championship, which I strongly disagree with.

HappyBalance wrote: »

They would be replaced by the team who finishes in the second tier of European rugby, so be it if Russia, Georgia etc.

The relegation/promotion aspect will heighten the excitement and over the years the quality.

For example the Scotland v Italy match on Saturday would be much better if relegation was at stake imo.

Yes, because clearly relegation has greatly improved the quality of the Premiership and Top 14.:rolleyes:

HappyBalance

My stance on the relegation is that 6N has gone a bit stale. Italy have no doubt improved over the last 10 years but they go into game 5 bottom and with no points. It could be 20/25 years before they challenge the top teams.

Has any other ideas to spice up the competition?

We really missed out on an opportunity not inviting Argentina in sooner.

phog

HappyBalance wrote: »

Not sure what everybody else thinks but I was pretty bored watching the two 6N matches today....much prefer the HC in terms of quality. What u think?

HappyBalance wrote: »

They would be replaced by the team who finishes in the second tier of European rugby, so be it if Russia, Georgia etc.

The relegation/promotion aspect will heighten the excitement and over the years the quality.

For example the Scotland v Italy match on Saturday would be much better if relegation was at stake imo.

You were bored watching games yesterday where the potential winner of this years Championship was playing and now you think a relegation system will make it more exciting :eek:

Cant see how dropping one of Scotland or Italy out in place of one from the next tier of European countries can help. Maybe allowing the Pumas in might have added to it but that boat has sailed.

CatFromHue

I'm not so sure adding Argentina would have done much.

The comp would have become quite long as well as there'd be an extra team and every team would get an extra rest week due to the uneven numbers.

If any comp needed an extra team it was the Tri Nations, it was getting very stale. Playing each team 3 times was getting pretty boring to be honest.

cgpg5

HappyBalance wrote: »

My stance on the relegation is that 6N has gone a bit stale. Italy have no doubt improved over the last 10 years but they go into game 5 bottom and with no points. It could be 20/25 years before they challenge the top teams.

Has any other ideas to spice up the competition?

We really missed out on an opportunity not inviting Argentina in sooner.

Would you have said this this time last year when Italy beat France and could have easily beaten us and were very good against Wales? I've said it before that this is their unlucky year. They'll beat Scotland next week I think and if your proposed idea of relegation came into place that would mean that the Scots (who could have won 2 of their first 3 games) would be playing in a lower tier next year. That would be no good to anyone

.ak

The H-Cup is the premier rugby competition in the world imo. Super Rugby and Top 14 is great, but the league format makes it long winded where as the H-Cup is just right, the pool stages are short and sweet and really input intensity. It often brings out the biggest performances of teams (or worst if you're French).

The Six Nations is also great, but there's no comparison. Having said that one-off game format of the Six Nations is great and I wouldn't change it. I think the format produces drama, sometimes for the wrong reasons, but entertaining none the less.

I'll always support schools and province first though. There's just too much of an 'old boy' attitude about the IRFU and the way they conduct their business in the IRFU. Until that changes H-Cup, Pro12, Schools and U20s Internationals.

wonton

I think the heineken cup is generally more entertaining when it come to the actual rugby, games aren't as messy, better weather for the later stages, teams are more used to playing together.

but international for me is just a hell of a lot more exciting as an event, just having so many people in the country behind the team, the build up being so massive, everything is just a scale up compared to heineken cup (apart from a munster vs leinster match maybe).


I think it's also to do with the fact that there are some players on the leinster team that I have absolutely no affinity to, for example it's great for leinster getting Brad thorn seeing as they don't have a huge amount of options there but I find it easier to cheer and get sucked into the atmosphere of a game after watching donnacha ryan work his way up to play for ireland through the years compared to brad thorn who just kinda came outta no where ( okay, well japan) for the last 3 months of the heineken cup and suddenly he's one of the 15 players i'll be screaming at the tv to support.

HappyBalance

Lets just hope next Sat will be a cracker and finish the tournament on a high note. Not sure if I can bare to watch Italy and Scotland though.

HappyBalance

Do you think if the thread was rephrased province v country the outcome of the poll would be the same?

mike.l

Love the internationals...

The Showstopper

I enjoy watching both but will say HC just because I love to watch Leinster they way the are playing under Schmidt.

Flincher

thomond2006 wrote: »

IMO this year's Six Nations has so far been a massive improvement over the last few years in terms of excitement and quality.

HEC is still better though, the quarter final weekend is my favourite of the year.

I love that weekend, and also the weekend of Round 6 in January. It's great craic calculating the pool table, coming up with different combinations of quarter finalists, and then inevitably end up being completely wrong.

There is something extra about the HEC for me - maybe because I'm within walking distance of Thomond, I know more people at the matches, I know more of the players, or at least have seen them play for their clubs and watch them progress.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching Ireland play, and love the occasional trip to Dublin, but there is something extra about the HEC.

danthefan

The HEC QFs in 09/10 was one of the best weekends of rugby I've ever seen. Not even the 6N competes with that imo. International rugby might be higher intensity or whatever but I think the HEC is more enjoyable for supporters.

Flincher

danthefan wrote: »

The HEC QFs in 09/10 was one of the best weekends of rugby I've ever seen. Not even the 6N competes with that imo. International rugby might be higher intensity or whatever but I think the HEC is more enjoyable for supporters.

The pool stages were great that year. Calculators were all out in Round 6 after we beat Northampton. Ulster were trying to get a try bonus away in the Rec and almost made it. Then Leinster drew with London Irish in Twickenham, with Chris Malone missing a couple of drop goals, and Sexton scoring one.

Just a pity it all when to ****e in the semi finals.

errlloyd

The only reason I like the Heineken more is that we regularly do well, and even if my team loses, one of the other Irish ones will win and make me feel better. The coach doesn't annoy me either.

rrpc

They're so completely different as to make comparisons meaningless. The 6N is a sequence of cup matches between teams that are put together for a short period of time, and the outcome is always in doubt, sometimes right to the very last game.

The HEC is a showcase of the best teams and coaches which does throw up the odd upset, but generally form is a good indicator of the final outcome.

Both tournaments can be very exciting but can also throw up some pretty sterile clashes.

totallegend

HappyBalance wrote: »

Do you think if the thread was rephrased province v country the outcome of the poll would be the same?

Interesting point and you're right, I think fewer people would pick province over country (it's 2 to 1 in favour of the HC at the moment) if that was the question being asked. But for me, the HC is definitely the superior tournament.

The format of the HC is brilliant and probably its most important edge it that it throws up different things every year, e.g. Ulster's resurgence, Edinburgh actually looking decent and Clermont coming from nowhere a few years ago to be one of the favourites. I love the 6N but it's the same every year to some extent and the HC just seems to generate more talking points (far more games to do so, obviously).

Or maybe we're all just seduced by Sky Sports' lovely presentation :cool:

bilston

Usually I would be inclined to agree that the HEC is more enjoyable but actually I think this has been one of the better Six Nations entertainment wise. The standard probably hasn't been wonderful in some games but there have been some nail biters such as Ireland v Wales, England v Wales, France v Ireland and France v England. The Wales v Scotland match was a decent watch as well. All three games have something riding on them this weekend. The GS is up for grabs in Cardiff, theoretically England still win the championship by beating us but even if there is no trophy to play for it's Ireland England for goodness sake and then there is the Wooden Spoon game in Rome which could either way.

Brendan97

Change no.1
Relegation - bottom team goes down and second last plays a play-off with second of div. 2

Division 1
France
Ireland
England
Wales
Scotland
Italy

Division 2
Georgia
Russia
Spain
USA
Canada
Romania
Reasons: Give Scotland and Italy a kick up the arse, let weaker teams get more games to improve the standard of rugby there, increase WC competitiveness

Change no.2
Bonus Points
Reasons: Make teams play more attractive rugby, makes games more exciting with more at stake, if teams lost narrowly it gives them a chance of contesting the championship

Okay for the first 10yrs, the new teams would get beaten badly but over time they would get better like italy who beat france and nearly beat ireland last year, the good players in weak countries get a chance to show-off their skills to big clubs

Podge_irl

Brendan97 wrote: »

Okay for the first 10yrs, the new teams would get beaten badly but over time they would get better like italy who beat france and nearly beat ireland last year, the good players in weak countries get a chance to show-off their skills to big clubs

No they wouldn't. Yo-yoing in and out of the league wouldn't make anyone get better. Just looking at Italy is enough to show that. It takes years and years to get up to the required level and you need to have consistent exposure to it.

Change no.1
Relegation - bottom team goes down and second last plays a play-off with second of div. 2

That's an even worse idea then one up one down. Georgia are the only team in the ENC at the moment who could even remotely hope to not get blown out of the water. It's just an utterly infeasible idea. The teams aren't there.

GerM

Relegation would be a disaster. The smaller teams would be thumped awfully. It would do little or no good to these countries at all. It would put Italy back several years or, worse again, put a nail in the coffin of Scottish rugby.

The BP idea is not realistic when it's not a home and away competition. Can you imagine a tournament where Ireland win all 5 games and finish on 20 points but France lose to us and finish on 21 or 22 and take the championship?