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Law Firm Big 5 Salaries 2012
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Just to elaborate on a point made earlier on about the top 5: the salaries may be higher, but the salary : hours worked ratio may be a hell of a lot lower. Having worked in one of the topper of the top 5, I remember a NQ calculating that he was earning lower than minimum wage - the number of hours he worked vs. his yearly salary had him coming out with just over €7.50 p/h. (Can't remember exactly, but his charge out rate at the time was approx. €220 p/h.) While it does depend on the department you get into, my experience is that 8am - 10pm two or three months in a row is not unusual. You can forget about work/life balance - work/work balance is a hard enough trick to manage and, realistically - if you really want to make a mark and move up through the ranks quickly - that's not going to change for at least 5 - 7 years.
In saying that, you would not believe the clout that, firstly, being accepted in a top 5 law firm, and, secondly, being kept on will give you. I think of it as The Devil Wears Prada" period. A few years of working in a big firm may kick start your career in a huge way, even if you decide not to stay on, as long as you leave on good terms.
A bonus for trainees getting into a top firm (that hasn't been mentioned) is the amount of support they get. I never know how trainees do it when they work in small offices without many, if any, peers. Guaranteed that in a big firm you'll have people in the same boat as you and people who did it all a year before, and there tends to be a huge support network.
I've seen this all from a good few angles and this stage, and I'd just say to be wary of considering jobs based on how much you'll get paid for them, without considering how much they might take from you. While times have changed, you can still qualify and earn pots of money - but the top firms aren't successful because they pay so much. They are well versed in utilising the top talent that they hire to their full extent and they will ensure that you earn your every cent that you make.
But, with that cheerful note, I wish you the best of luck! There are still plenty of opportunities out there, but make sure you think of yourself along the way!!
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In saying that, you would not believe the clout that, firstly, being accepted in a top 5 law firm, and, secondly, being kept on will give you. I think of it as The Devil Wears Prada" period. A few years of working in a big firm may kick start your career in a huge way, even if you decide not to stay on, as long as you leave on good terms.
Yes.."good terms"...........Bad terms is having the wrong psychopath on your tail. And they can come after you, and get their rat faced little helpers, after you for a very long time.A bonus for trainees getting into a top firm (that hasn't been mentioned) is the amount of support they get. I never know how trainees do it when they work in small offices without many, if any, peers. Guaranteed that in a big firm you'll have people in the same boat as you and people who did it all a year before, and there tends to be a huge support network.
The "huge support network" is the rest of the religious cult. Work hard and don't complain....There's a slice of that pie in the sky, just as long as you hold out long enough. Don't complain....keep that vacant look on your face, along with that waxy joyless perma smile.I've seen this all from a good few angles and this stage, and I'd just say to be wary of considering jobs based on how much you'll get paid for them, without considering how much they might take from you. While times have changed, you can still qualify and earn pots of money
Yes...."pots of money" just at the end of that rainbow.....Have some Koolaid kiddo....the money wagon is comin' just around the corner. Chooo Chooo- but the top firms aren't successful because they pay so much.
Why are they so "successful"?............If they don't pay so much.......I mean on this thread, they were making out people could start on 50, 60 thousand....if they don't pay so much, why are people saying things like that.
No one is starting on 50 to 60k.....NO FCUKING ONE.....They are well versed in utilising the top talent that they hire to their full extent and they will ensure that you earn your every cent that you make.
They bleed you f'ing dry........And what makes you think you're so "talented"?..because they told you so...because they gave you a little money - and it was a little money. Are any of these people extraordinarily talented in any way really - and I don't mean they won a running and jumping medal somewhere before starting work for the firm.
"I'm talented...I look the business in a suit....I put in "face time"....the people I work with are my "support network"...They're my "friends".......They'd never stick a knife in my back.....Just as long as I'm careful enough not to upset anyone and keep "fitting in".....And it's nothing like being in a George Orwell novel.... nothing at all like that....I'm a free person...In the free market....hurrah for Aviva Stadium, rugby and the free market....nothing at all like the Soviet Union....nothing at all like that"But, with that cheerful note, I wish you the best of luck! There are still plenty of opportunities out there, but make sure you think of yourself along the way!!
Yes....Indeed......Keep looking after Number 10 -
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It's called a "face time" culture. And it's fools gold to work for any firm who do it. When you breakdown how much you're being paid, it could be in and around minimum wage.
10 to 20 hours or real work in a week. And then 50 of pure arse kissing.
These firms also have a habit of chewing people up and spitting them out really quickly. They sack people for the sake of it. You have to survive on your "social skills" (ability to kiss ass, and not seem a threat to whoever the nearby psychopaths are). The descriptions of these places I've heard are awful. Everyone is terrified they're about to be sacked. Everyone is "working" excessive hours. They're more like religious cults with psychopathic leaders.
And I wouldn't believe talk of 50 or 60 thousand. These firms pay the minimum possible. People tend to exaggerate.
Of course. If you're pompous, psychopathic, like working practice that are so restrictive it's worse than prison, and that you have to spend all your time socialising with the pompous psychopaths you work with or risk getting the sack, then.....Maybe the big firm is the kind of place that would suit you down to the ground.
All that glitters, is not gold.
At one point I was working around 70 billable hours a week (so probably spending around 90 hours over 6 days). Was it hell? Not really, it was a lot of work but I enjoyed the big case.
I find it offensive that you would say that people who work long hours are there for the "arse-kissing" or that that's all that's needed to survive/thrive.
I genuinely enjoy working with the team and department, we get to look at huge deals that affect the country and the partners/associates/trainees who work alongside me/who I work for are all dedicated and knowledgeable professionals. You may be there till 12 but hey, the job needs to be done.
Certainly, if you don't enjoy the legal work you shouldn't be in one of these firms. But if you don't enjoy legal work you probably shouldn't be working in the legal industry.
Yes you can get huge hours, you may be limited in time for other things, but it is a choice and many of my fellow trainees were able to leave at reasonable hours (6ish). It depends on departments and whether it's the peak season or not. I did not encounter one person who was simply in the office for the sake of being there, rather than being there to do a job.
Some benefits of working long days:
1. you appreciate the weekends and holidays more
2. you get to save a lot of money since you're in the office all day
So, in conclusion - big 5 isn't for everyone, do try and get an internship to see if it's for you. Some people get a buzz off closing a multi-million euro deal at 5am in the morning. Horses for courses
But I don't think it's fair to paint a picture of the firms as being a backstabbing political game of sorts. People don't get far by being unprofessional and hard work is rewarded. Face-time amounts for little if you have no substance to back it up.0 -
At one point I was working around 70 billable hours a week (so probably spending around 90 hours over 6 days). Was it hell? Not really, it was a lot of work but I enjoyed the big case.
I find it offensive that you would say that people who work long hours are there for the "arse-kissing" or that that's all that's needed to survive/thrive.
I genuinely enjoy working with the team and department, we get to look at huge deals that affect the country and the partners/associates/trainees who work alongside me/who I work for are all dedicated and knowledgeable professionals. You may be there till 12 but hey, the job needs to be done.
Certainly, if you don't enjoy the legal work you shouldn't be in one of these firms. But if you don't enjoy legal work you probably shouldn't be working in the legal industry.
Yes you can get huge hours, you may be limited in time for other things, but it is a choice and many of my fellow trainees were able to leave at reasonable hours (6ish). It depends on departments and whether it's the peak season or not. I did not encounter one person who was simply in the office for the sake of being there, rather than being there to do a job.
Some benefits of working long days:
1. you appreciate the weekends and holidays more
2. you get to save a lot of money since you're in the office all day
So, in conclusion - big 5 isn't for everyone, do try and get an internship to see if it's for you. Some people get a buzz off closing a multi-million euro deal at 5am in the morning. Horses for courses
But I don't think it's fair to paint a picture of the firms as being a backstabbing political game of sorts. People don't get far by being unprofessional and hard work is rewarded. Face-time amounts for little if you have no substance to back it up.
Agreed. That's the way it is in any billable industry. People have a modicum of intelligence know that being able to bill 70 hours in a week is excellent, business is good. It's how you make your money, or, if a lowly trainee/newly qualified, show you are essential. People who complain about poor work/life balance at the beginning of a law career should find a new profession. I fear some of this is chalked up to young people who were coddled by their mammies and now can't hack it in the real world.0 -
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Thirdfox out of interest what is a typical length of day for the various levels (trainee, associate and partner) in a big firm? I have always and continue to work in small practices so I have really no idea. I have certainly heard anecdotally from colleagues that there are often 5 am finishes in these places and back in again for 9 or 10 am.I generally work about 8:30 - about 6:30. Obviously in the waves and troughs that can vary a bit. 5am finishes do exist, but are rarities generally caused by something unforeseen. You might get a week of them and then not experience it again for 9 months. Obviously periodically you are in until after 10 if there is a major issue that has arisen. The FaceTime argument is pure nonsense.
Sounds about right - I'd be getting out at 7 but only start at 9 so quite similar to Johnfas there.
As for partners/associates it really depends. You have those who burn the midnight oil (i.e. still there when I'm gone at 11) and those who encourage us to leave at 6 when they're gone too.
I've never had a 5am finish but one trainee did. So it is rare - it's only at the end of big cases when, like johnfas says, something pops up that must be dealt with before the deal is signed at 9 the next morning etc.
Oh and another "benefit" of working long hours - you never notice any traffic on the roads
I remember finishing work at 5:30 one day and getting on a jam-packed bus, felt so strange :P
As for work/life balance - I think it's a situation where you work hard and play harder. People are still involved in their sports teams here and can even be given time off to compete.
That's another benefit of working in the big 5 - generally your fellow trainees will be exceptional people in many fields, academia, sporting, etc.
Would I work 70 hours a week non-stop? Nope - that's why I didn't go to New York or London. It's definitely more manageable over here. That's where my conscious work/life balance decision was made -
"I could get 180,000 dollars a year plus bonuses in NY and slave away for 12 months 70-80 hours a week or get a lot less money, but also have free time to enjoy for myself while still doing "big" work that I'll find challenging and enjoyable".0 -
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What firm pays trainees more than €40,000? I think most are still at €35,000 at the most after the pay cuts nearly all the big 5 imposed after the crash. Do you actually know personally of any trainee on more than that?
As many posters have said pay inc bonuses is in the mid to maybe at a stretch high forties. Unless you know the mythical NQ on €60,000 in Dublin 0 -
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