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The Next XBox - Rumour Thread

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24

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    #32
    hightower1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭hightower1


    Blowfish wrote: »
    If you are only looking at the manufacturing costs that may be the case. They are more likely looking at the 'bigger picture' though in that though they'll lose x amount due to the more expensive manufacturing cost per unit, they'll gain y amount through reducing piracy and (if tied to your account) lowering second hand sales. If by their calculations y>x, then they'll go for the proprietary format.

    The site reports that the physical media they refer to being some kind of swappable card system a kin to SD cards I cant see how that would stop trade ins, its just a different physical media but as long as there is a physical media device to trade in then nothing will change in terms of 2nd hand game shops.

    Yeah having your content on something like an SD card would reduce piracy but you will still have the card slot on both version of the console so manufacturing costs being higher isnt offset by ether of two reasons. Perhaps they feel if the device is more of a entertainment system and strong enough to warrent sales on that basis alone that why they would release a "light" version of the console at a cheaper price in order to entice those to the brand that normally wouldnt have bought an xbox. If thats the case they feel the extra sales from these customers will justify the manufacturing costs of two console versions but its a mis step. They would have to be targeting someone into home entertainment, in house connectivity and someone pretty into media streaming in house but that customer now is typically male between 18 - 40 years old and they already want or have a console / media center in house. Not a smart move MS. The cards im all for but its going to be costly for them , two versions of the console has no redeeming qualities though.


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    #33
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    No, there really isn't, if you buy an MS console you will be stuck with it

    ah here, that's ridiculous talk. nobody is tied for life to a console. you can sell them for starters. and do you honestly think that ms will wait til they've sold a load of consoles before mysteriously ramping up the price to fleece everyone because they'll have no other option? won't happen

    people will know prices before the console is available, and they'll be able to make their decision based on that


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    #34
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    They want each game tied to a machine or an account so it can't be traded in. This is all an attempt to kill the second hand market. They are going about it the wrong way. Aslong as there is a physical media of any kind, be it disc or cartridge or memory card.....it will be traded. Locking games to accounts only works in a purely digital distribution setting.....and we are 10 years or more away from that. It won't work with physical media.

    They just need to negotiate a cut of the profits from each second hand game. They get their cake and eat it too.


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    #35
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Kirby wrote: »
    They just need to negotiate a cut of the profits from each second hand game. They get their cake and eat it too.

    they tried and failed that a long time ago


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    #36
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    Helix wrote: »
    they tried and failed that a long time ago

    They should try again. They are the ones with all the power. If a chain doesn't play ball, refuse to sell to them. Physical stores can't survive without the new stock. They would soon fall in line.


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    #37
    Deano7788
    Registered Users Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Deano7788


    Helix wrote: »
    ah here, that's ridiculous talk. nobody is tied for life to a console. you can sell them for starters. and do you honestly think that ms will wait til they've sold a load of consoles before mysteriously ramping up the price to fleece everyone because they'll have no other option? won't happen

    people will know prices before the console is available, and they'll be able to make their decision based on that

    The only problem is that if MS get to market before Sony, which is practically guaranteed, and are continuing their current pricing strategy, it might be assumed that this is just because it is the next generation of console and that prices always start off higher, which is generally true. Therefore, people will still buy the console.However, if they then fail to drop the digital prices during the life cycle, and if Sony continue to use disc based media, and retailers drop their prices shortly into its life cycle, that's when people who bought the X-box will feel screwed over.

    I'm excluding Nintendo from this as I think the Wii-U will be too underpowered to be directly comparable.


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    #38
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,813 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Helix wrote: »
    ah here, that's ridiculous talk. nobody is tied for life to a console. you can sell them for starters. and do you honestly think that ms will wait til they've sold a load of consoles before mysteriously ramping up the price to fleece everyone because they'll have no other option? won't happen

    people will know prices before the console is available, and they'll be able to make their decision based on that

    It's nothing to do with MS raising prices, it's about how poor value XBLA and PSN are compared to Steam or retail and how they don't even bother to change prices. The sales are crap and you end up with ancient games on the store for stupid prices when you can buy them brand new for less than a tenner. There would be no reason for MS to lower prices since there's no competitor to their prices on their system. Sony will be the same if they drop physical media.

    This isn't about killing the second hand market, Sony and MS could not careless about the second hand market. By going totally digital they have created a market that only they control and can then set prices themselves. That's what the big push is towards.
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    #39
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    This isn't about killing the second hand market, Sony and MS could not careless about the second hand market. By going totally digital they have created a market that only they control and can then set prices themselves. That's what the big push is towards.

    I think you missed the logic train there retro. They care a great deal about the second hand market. They get no profit from it and lose alot of sales because new customers buy used instead.

    The reason they are pushing digital is so that that no second hand market will exist. As you say, they control it all. This is soley because of the second hand market. If you can only get your games directly from them, no second hand market exists. They hate it and want it to die.


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    #40
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,813 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Kirby wrote: »
    I think you missed the logic train there retro. They care a great deal about the second hand market. They get no profit from it and lose alot of sales because new customers buy used instead.

    The reason they are pushing digital is so that that no second hand market will exist. As you say, they control it all. This is soley because of the second hand market. If you can only get your games directly from them, no second hand market exists. They hate it and want it to die.

    Didn't miss any logic train there at all. MS and Sony are the platform producers. Sure they lose a bit to the second hand market but it's more the third party publishers that are losing out to it (which is also debatable, but well they're clinging on to old fashioned pricing structures). MS and Sony are making most of their money on third party licensing no matter how many copies they sell.

    I doubt MS and Sony will be going totally digital just for the poor third party publishers sake. More likely they are looking at the Apple store and iTunes to see how they can create a real monopoly without any competitors.
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    #41
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with MS raising prices, it's about how poor value XBLA and PSN are compared to Steam or retail and how they don't even bother to change prices. The sales are crap and you end up with ancient games on the store for stupid prices when you can buy them brand new for less than a tenner. There would be no reason for MS to lower prices since there's no competitor to their prices on their system. Sony will be the same if they drop physical media.

    This isn't about killing the second hand market, Sony and MS could not careless about the second hand market. By going totally digital they have created a market that only they control and can then set prices themselves. That's what the big push is towards.

    psn is getting a LOT better over here lately, not sure about there, but the fact that retail vita games are cheaper on psn than they are in the bricks and mortar stores is a move in the right direction and it shows that companies are willing to go that way


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    #42
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,813 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Helix wrote: »
    psn is getting a LOT better over here lately, not sure about there, but the fact that retail vita games are cheaper on psn than they are in the bricks and mortar stores is a move in the right direction and it shows that companies are willing to go that way

    Agreed, I also notice them adjusting their pricing as well on older games and have better sales. MS seem to be a lot more stuck in their ways. There's a big move away from XBLA by indie developers going back to PC.
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    #43
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    ms are supposed to be very unhelpful too, which will shoot them in the foot

    im very optimistic that sony will have a very, very fair pricing scheme should things go digital only from them. as it stands right now, i can get a $39.99 rrp game (which costs $45.20 after tax) for $34.99 on psn. for me, that's why i genuinely believe that digital distribution will benefit the gamer in the street


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    #44
    richymcdermott
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    Helix wrote: »
    ms are supposed to be very unhelpful too, which will shoot them in the foot

    im very optimistic that sony will have a very, very fair pricing scheme should things go digital only from them. as it stands right now, i can get a $39.99 rrp game (which costs $45.20 after tax) for $34.99 on psn. for me, that's why i genuinely believe that digital distribution will benefit the gamer in the street

    Well on psn in europe catherine is 60 euros , i dont see how that benefits anybody :pac:


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    #45
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    If ME4 comes out on PS4 and the 720....

    It will stay at 50e on the PSN/XBLA forever. There will be no discounts, no Zavvi Mega Mondays.

    Obviously, letting retailers sell the codes for the download could possibly help this.

    Not looking forward to the day this happens.


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    #46
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    regular discounts on games for ps+ users


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    #47
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    If it was download only I definitely wouldn't buy it. If there's some other way of getting your games onto the console then meh, I don't see why the media used has to be a disk.


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    #48
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Helix wrote: »
    regular discounts on games for ps+ users

    Well, for starters its not a discount if you have to pay to be a member.

    Secondly, just because theres the odd decent discount on PSN (even ignoring PS+ for a moment) that doesn't mean it isn't a rip-off 90% of the time.

    I am really surprisedby your stance here Helix, what would force a game down from its RRP if games went digital?


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    #49
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    noodler wrote: »
    Well, for starters its not a discount if you have to pay to be a member.

    the savings in a year from ps+, even if you never bought a discounted ps+ title far outweigh the cost of signing up. even look at it that you're paying 50 quid in advance for about 50 free games a year
    noodler wrote: »
    Secondly, just because theres the odd decent discount on PSN (even ignoring PS+ for a moment) that doesn't mean it isn't a rip-off 90% of the time.

    i cant speak for that side of the pond, but i can assure you over here the cost is very reasonable for the majority of digitally distributed games via psn
    noodler wrote: »
    I am really surprisedby your stance here Helix, what would force a game down from its RRP if games went digital?

    the fact that sony are already showing that they're willing to charge less than retail prices with downloadable vita games?


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    #50
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,813 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Helix wrote: »
    the fact that sony are already showing that they're willing to charge less than retail prices with downloadable vita games?

    Well it will be worth seeing if they can match retail prices when the games price starts to bottom out. My guess is they won't.
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    #51
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Well it will be worth seeing if they can match retail prices when the games price starts to bottom out. My guess is they won't.

    no id say you're right there. the thing with digital downloads is that they increase game longevity. there does need to be some kind of system that would be transparent for that kind of thing, say something like this

    launch date - price is 100%
    3 months after launch - price drops to 90%
    6 months after launch - price drops to 70%
    9 months after launch - price drops to 50%

    that's not really an unrealistic or unfair way to do business. most people aren't going to want to wait that long for AAA titles, but it would mean that smaller games, or ones with less advertising budget could be pushed again after 6 and 9 months to increase overall sales

    i think that over the course of a year, if the games were priced in that way, you'd see more games making more money than they would over a 12 month time frame with nothing but 100% pricing


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    #52
    carl.r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭carl.r


    Such BS :pac: Just some fake rumor cooked up by someone.

    I aint the sharpest tool in the box but digital downloads aint gonna happen next gen. Bricks and mortar shops are still selling a hefty percentage of games around the world.


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    #53
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    carl.r wrote: »
    Such BS :pac: Just some fake rumor cooked up by someone.

    I aint the sharpest tool in the box but digital downloads aint gonna happen next gen. Bricks and mortar shops are still selling a hefty percentage of games around the world.

    theyre not really doing as well as they used to be

    ask game


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    #54
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Digital Download prices for retail games are not solely set by ms/Sony; they've had to agree with the retail shops to not sell it under a certain price as to not undermine their sales. I don't see how getting a digital copy for a fiver cheaper is preferable today, since it has €0 resale value.

    Seeing as the RRP of a game had not risen in...well 15+ years, because consumers simply won't pay it, I don't see how discless consoles could increase the price. Customers wouldn't pay it, but more so with no distribution/physical manufacturing costs, game companies and developers get a larger chunk of the same pie.


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    #55
    Meesared
    Registered Users Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭Meesared


    Calling BS on this one, it just plain doesn't make sense


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    #56
    McGrath5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭McGrath5


    I for one really hope this does not happen. You can't beat the feeling of going into town to get your new game on launch day, something about ordering online is not the same.


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    #57
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,223 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Helix wrote: »
    the savings in a year from ps+, even if you never bought a discounted ps+ title far outweigh the cost of signing up. even look at it that you're paying 50 quid in advance for about 50 free games a year

    Thats a very 'ifs' and 'buts' argument based on PS+ alone.


    Helix wrote: »
    i cant speak for that side of the pond, but i can assure you over here the cost is very reasonable for the majority of digitally distributed games via psn

    Where there is also the option of buying the same game on a disc? I disagree.


    Helix wrote: »
    he fact that sony are already showing that they're willing to charge less than retail prices with downloadable vita games?

    Again, well I can't comment on this just yet. Which game are they exactly? I wil compare the prices on a comparison site.

    Also, knocking a few euros off the PSN price of some non-AAA games because they are/were afraid the VITA will bomb might not be the best example to show where the long term future of pricing will be on PSN.


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    #58
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Helix wrote: »
    theyre not really doing as well as they used to be

    ask game

    How are GameStop doing?


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    #59
    lasersquad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭lasersquad


    Perfect Choice wrote: »
    You can't beat the feeling of going into town to get your new game

    We`re a dying breed though. What`s quite saddening, is how many people actually thinks digital only is a great idea. The arguments pro? "it`s so convenient!" (cool but how lazy has we become?) "you`ll lose/scratch your discs!" (back them up to digital?) - but the worst ones are when folks turn into business advisors on behalf of these corporations. There are many variations of "it would be good for profits/well, they`re here to make money" - that I find frankly terrifying. While, perversely true, they`re not good for gamers/gaming though. These companies have been around for ages and were doing rather well in "physical" age, now turning the screw more and more. Draconian DRM schemes, DLC shenanigans, online passes - topics done to death perhaps, but no less relevant - and getting worse.

    Glorified Steam? I didn`t have broadband for years, so wasn`t interested, but went there recently and was amazed how ridiculous their retail prices are (about as much as Amazon`s dearer-than-physical book downloads). And for what, license to play a game? Sure - the sales. But these are the same as any other sales - you end up with lots of stuff clogging your HDD, which maybe great but many never really get to play these - or wouldn`t buy otherwise. Besides there`s Amazon and other places who do great prices too - on the real thing. But oh, then you`d have to wait few days and perhaps trouble yourself to open a mailbox - sod that.

    Its stranglehold on PC gaming is rather worrying, nevermind the BS that is Steamworks - so these days a computer is not enough to play my SP title, I need Gabe`s permission too, coming over the Tubes - and you`d be perhaps surprised to learn that not everybody on this planet has a connection. Nevermind the coverage, to get one you also need a credit card and some cash on it too. Then you might be a person who moves around a lot, student, you might surprise! get poor too. Things happen in life.
    (Stopping piracy? You got to be kidding. 3700+ seeders on ME3 as of today)

    As for second hand market - please. If I bought it I should`ve right to sell it, simple as that, and I don`t care for any convoluted arguments against (and I know there are plenty). These only exist in our little gaming circle anyway.
    Sure, I`m all up for some profits going back to the publishers (no - not the devs - it`s not how it works coz they run the show). Like someone earlier said in this thread - make a percentage deal with Gamestops of this world - perfectly workable, some sort of royalty scheme like in music industry or whatnot.


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    #60
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    danthefan wrote: »
    How are GameStop doing?
    They are still profitable, largely due to their digital sales which have increased by over 50% for both console and PC.


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    #61
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Interesting article.

    I would say Microsoft's two chief motivations are to combat piracy and to destroy the second hand market, where the neither themselves nor the game publishers make any money, just the retailers.

    The simplest interpretation of this article is that Microsoft are abandoning DVDs and will deliver their games on cheap flash memory cards, possibly cards that are both read and write, allowing the flash card to be written to with the players Xbox LIVE account details once the game is installed, effectively locking that game card to the player for life. Zip zap zong you have destroyed the second hand market. This would obviously add more cost to the production of the game, but I think that cost could be absorbed by both MS and the publishers in return for no more second hand market.

    A more elaborate interpretation would be would be cheaper for MS but more convoluted would be that they don't distribute games in physical packaging at all any more. You buy an SD card or some sort of flash based memory and you go into GAME or GameStop and they, through a PC with MS installed management software, download the game you want to buy to the SD card, probably locking it at the point of purchase to your Xbox LIVE account. You then go hope, install the game on your Xbox and wipe the SD card, ready for the next purchase. The costs for MS doing this would be next to nothing, the up front cost would be payed by the store putting in a broadband connection and setting up the PC to distribute the games.

    There are of course a few problems with this system, how does Auntie Mary buy little Timmy CoD 7 for Christmas if she has to have an SD card and Timmy's Xbox LIVE account.

    So my guess is on the former rather than the latter being closer to the true of this article, assuming it is true at all. But the latter would be very interesting.


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