What are those 2 stars !

dewsbury

Hi,

Thomas (aged 9) and I (aged 50 and 3/4) are just starting out identifying stars and constellations.

We have identified the plough , the north start and also Orion (and his belt).

However, every night we see 2 very bright stars that we cannot identify. They are perhaps the brightest in the sky.

We are in Dublin (8pm) and the 2 stars are pretty much due West in the sky.

Any thoughts as to what they are?

Ardent

Jupiter and Venus. Jupiter being the higher of the two.

Top tip: install the excellent and free Stellarium - great app for discovering what's in the sky at any given moment.

coylemj

Excellent article about the Jupiter & Venus conjunction here, this was provided by poster Elmer_Blooker in the Jupiter thread.....

http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/pictorial-guide-to-venus-jupiter-conjunction-in-february-march-2012

AugustusMinimus

Them the two in west every evening around 7 or 8 ?

shizz

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Them the two in west every evening around 7 or 8 ?

Yup. Hard to miss. Brightest in the sky. Specially Venus.

NJS007

shizz wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Them the two in west every evening around 7 or 8 ?

Yup. Hard to miss. Brightest in the sky. Specially Venus.

Myself and my son were wondering the very same thing.... I knower its kind going off the initial question, but can someone recommend a good starter telescope, and where we might get one.... Can't be to expensive mind, but it is really fascinating....

gkell2

dewsbury wrote: »

Hi,

Thomas (aged 9) and I (aged 50 and 3/4) are just starting out identifying stars and constellations.

We have identified the plough , the north start and also Orion (and his belt).

However, every night we see 2 very bright stars that we cannot identify. They are perhaps the brightest in the sky.

We are in Dublin (8pm) and the 2 stars are pretty much due West in the sky.

Any thoughts as to what they are?

If you go out night after night,what you will see is Jupiter move from the left to the right of Venus and rather than download something like Stellarium,try an online Orrery which allows you to judge the motion of the Earth,Venus and Jupiter by using line of sight.

http://math-ed.com/Resources/GIS/Geometry_In_Space/java1/Temp/TLVisPOrbit.html

It takes a bit of getting used to but once you get the hang of it you may enjoy how the old astronomers figured out the Earth moves around the Sun by watching the changing positions of the planets night after night.Many descriptions out there have Jupiter moving 'below' Venus in the coming days but a better way to look at it is that the Earth and the other two planets follow roughly the same orbital line around the central Sun so you have to develop a sense that you are looking out at Venus and Jupiter on an orbital circuit rather that looking 'up' at them.

If you continue to watch Venus,it will swing around until early June when an event occurs that nobody alive will see again in their lifetime as the faster moving Venus in an inner orbital circuit overtakes the Earth with the central Sun as a backdrop,just set the dates for June 6th in the online orrery above and you will see what I mean.

cojack101

If you have an android phone, download Google Star Map.

Its not 100% accurate, but its free! and its handy on the go!

shizz

gkell2 wrote: »

If you continue to watch Venus,it will swing around until early June when an event occurs that nobody alive will see again in their lifetime as the faster moving Venus in an inner orbital circuit overtakes the Earth with the central Sun as a backdrop,just set the dates for June 6th in the online orrery above and you will see what I mean.

Thanks for the link, I've been looking for something like this. Just wondering do you mean that Venus will go in front of the sun when it overtakes us this time? Because it must over take us every year? Usually does it appear above or below the sun?

gkell2

shizz wrote: »

Thanks for the link, I've been looking for something like this. Just wondering do you mean that Venus will go in front of the sun when it overtakes us this time? Because it must over take us every year? Usually does it appear above or below the sun?

A simple graphic best explains why these rare events called transits happen only in June or December even though Venus overtakes us every year.There is an 'upside down' factor where we watch Venus move below the Sun and Australians see it the other way around -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Transit_diagram_angles.png

If you use the online orrery,you will see the Earth presently overtaking Mars and while the transit of Venus is a brilliant but extremely rare way to demonstrate that the Earth is not the center of the solar system,the original argument for the Earth's motion was the observation that planets seem to stop and go backwards from their normal course and then move forward again.It is a line of sight observation again just as in the next few days Jupiter will move from the left of Venus to the right due mainly to our motion and that of Venus -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

You can see by comparing different retrogrades of Mars that our orbits do not run exactly in line as Earth overtakes Mars at different points in our orbit just as Venus does the Earth -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100613.html

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060422.html

It is an incredible challenge to go outside, look at the planets and put their motions in context to our motion with everything going around the central Sun and I don't really know what video games are like but this exercise is as tough as they come and has been played for thousands of years in some shape or form.

jumpjack

dewsbury wrote: »

Hi,

Thomas (aged 9) and I (aged 50 and 3/4) are just starting out identifying stars and constellations.

Want to amaze your son? Go here: http://www.heavens-above.com/iridium.asp?Dur=7
Input your latitude/longitude, then look for "iridium flares", then tell your son "I can forecast when next shooting star will appear".

Please share results.

coylemj

gkell2 wrote: »

A simple graphic best explains why these rare events called transits happen only in June or December even though Venus overtakes us every year.There is an 'upside down' factor where we watch Venus move below the Sun and Australians see it the other way around -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Transit_diagram_angles.png

Upside down? Australia? Can we stick to the science.....

The orbit of Venus intersects the ecliptic in early June and early December so when inferior conjunction occurs on or about the right dates, it will be visible as a transit.

username123

dewsbury wrote: »

Hi,

Thomas (aged 9) and I (aged 50 and 3/4) are just starting out identifying stars and constellations.

We have identified the plough , the north start and also Orion (and his belt).

However, every night we see 2 very bright stars that we cannot identify. They are perhaps the brightest in the sky.

We are in Dublin (8pm) and the 2 stars are pretty much due West in the sky.

Any thoughts as to what they are?

Mars is visible at the moment as well - its a reddish colour, look east after sunset.

gkell2

coylemj wrote: »

Upside down? Australia? Can we stick to the science.....

"If you’re watching the transit from the northern hemisphere, Venus will move from left to right across the upper half of the Sun at a slight downward angle. If you’re in the southern hemisphere, Venus will move from right to left at a slight upward angle across the lower half of the Sun. (People in the southern hemisphere are “upside down” relative to people in the northern hemisphere, and vice versa.)"

http://www.exploratorium.edu/venus/question3.html

It takes a bit of getting used to but generally readers do get the picture with the help of graphics,imaging and the orrery and much better to describe the event in June as the faster Venus in an inner orbital circuit overtaking a slower moving Earth than get tangled up in terminology that existed before the motion of the Earth was discovered.The issue of the upper or lower part of the Sun is a headwrecking one as our Australian cousins,albeit in a good natured way, would probably dispute* which end is up and why they don't see the 'man in the moon' as it is upside down,at least from our point of view but these things tend to distract from the larger picture and the extremely rare event as we see the motion of Venus put Jupiter to the right of the planet in the coming days and go on in its circuit to whiz by the Earth in early June with the central Sun as a backdrop.

* http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070401145028AASrIFm

coylemj

gkell2 wrote: »

People in the southern hemisphere are “upside down” relative to people in the northern hemisphere, and vice versa."

Do you write Ladybird books for a living?

gkell2

coylemj wrote: »

Do you write Ladybird books for a living?

"To make light of science is to be a true scientist" Pascal, 1660

In an era where video games limit children to dexterity,using imaging and graphics provides a truly amazing challenge in bringing what they learn from graphics and the online orrery and going outside and getting a feel for what is going on.What separates us from the great astronomers of the past is that they had to visualize what was going on in their heads while today we have time lapse footage which makes it so much easier to comprehend the structure of the solar system and the motion of the planets,for instance,Galileo's delight at the discovery of Copernicus which is as fresh today as it was back then -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

"Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is acutely demonstrated by Copernicus . . ."Galileo

Definitely the online orrery does a brilliant job in linking the reasoning of Copernicus with the time lapse footage we have today and these things only emerged within the last 15 years or so.A teacher in the 70's would have found it extremely difficult to gain the attention of students whereas today with all these tools it is handy enough to explain what Copernicus did and how he did it.

Smashling7

The night sky is another great app to see all in the skies... And it's free!

username123

coylemj wrote: »

Do you write Ladybird books for a living?

Post reported. Ridiculously patronising and rude.

shizz

coylemj wrote: »

Upside down? Australia? Can we stick to the science.....

The orbit of Venus intersects the ecliptic in early June and early December so when inferior conjunction occurs on or about the right dates, it will be visible as a transit.

What's your problem? He explained it very well. Without using terms that many people asking these sort of question wouldn't know, like ecliptic and inferior conjunction.

coylemj

username123 wrote: »

...... Ridiculously patronising . .....

But you don't think that someone who posts this in a science forum is patronising?

gkell2 wrote: »

People in the southern hemisphere are “upside down” relative to people in the northern hemisphere, and vice versa.

gkell2

coylemj wrote: »

But you don't think that someone who posts this in a science forum is patronising?

To be fair,that quote came from a website which does a better job than I could in answering a question on whether Venus will be observed above or below the Sun -

http://www.exploratorium.edu/venus/question3.html

Under closer scrutiny I got it backwards as the Northern latitudes will see Venus move across the upper half of the Sun and Aussies will see it move across the lower half in June.

As Venus is roughly the same size as the Earth,readers can get a sense of the distances and speed we travel in our annual circuit along with the scale of the solar system and while it is presently difficult to put the orbital motion of Venus in context as it moves Jupiter from left to right,these transit events certainly help observers get familiar with the orbital motions of planets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqT5pk9vTM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/id/f/f6/Sun,_Earth_size_comparison_labeled.jpg

username123

coylemj wrote: »

But you don't think that someone who posts this in a science forum is patronising?

No I dont.

I think the way it was explained will be understandable to Thomas (aged 9) and Dewsbury (aged 50 and 3/4) who has stated that they have just started out identifying objects in the night sky whereas posting comments like

Upside down? Australia? Can we stick to the science.....

The orbit of Venus intersects the ecliptic in early June and early December so when inferior conjunction occurs on or about the right dates, it will be visible as a transit.

will just frighten off someone who comes here to ask a simple question. If you cant see why then I suggest you need to re-assess your communication skills.

Cú Giobach

gkell2 wrote: »

Definitely the online orrery does a brilliant job in linking the reasoning of Copernicus with the time lapse footage we have today and these things only emerged within the last 15 years or so.A teacher in the 70's would have found it extremely difficult to gain the attention of students whereas today with all these tools it is handy enough to explain what Copernicus did and how he did it.

A teacher of mine in the 70's brought an orrery into class one day and had no problem explaining things, that was what got me interested in astronomy.
People have been using real ones to explain things for quite a while now.

gkell2

shizz wrote: »

What's your problem? He explained it very well. Without using terms that many people asking these sort of question wouldn't know, like ecliptic and inferior conjunction.

The works of Copernicus and Kepler are easily understood today with a bit of effort whereas it wouldn't have been so easy to describe a few decades ago and there is another factor which prevents students and interested adults from enjoying the reasoning which the older astronomers used to figure out not only that the Earth travels in a circuit between Mars and Venus,but varies in speed as well.

It was Copernicus who figured out that the apparent loop-the-loop motion of the planets is an illusion seen from a moving Earth as they watched the planets move against the background stars -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100613.html

It was known,even in antiquity,that these retrograde motions are not always the same in duration so the astronomers in antiquity and even Copernicus tried to account for the variations in different ways to keep the orbital motion of the planets constant and circular.

Kepler came along and mapped out the motions of Mars as you would see it from a moving Earth just as in the contemporary photographic sequence above and I would hope readers can see just how brilliant these men were and that their works can be easily understood -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Kepler_Mars_retrograde.jpg

The symbols on the outer ring are the grouping of stars in the constellations which match up with the constellations in the contemporary photographic image if you keep your cursor on the image.As you can see,the spacing between the loops and the loops themselves are not always the same and this was a hint to Kepler that as planets go around the Sun,they do not travel at the same speed nor is their distance from the central Sun perfectly circular.He explains the diagram himself -

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth, entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils, leading the individual planets into their respective orbits ,quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many times as the 'garlands' you see looped towards the centre,with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time the Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler

The point of all this is not condescension,it is only recently that we can raise the level of understanding of what Copernicus,Kepler or Galileo did and make it understandable for students.If you can take onboard the way Kepler came to his insight on the variations in orbital speed of the Earth through the original work of Copernicus,you can begin to see where it went wrong later and why few people are aware of it.

gkell2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

A teacher of mine in the 70's brought an orrery into class one day and had no problem explaining things, that was what got me interested in astronomy.
People have been using real ones to explain things for quite a while now.

Tell me,how confident are you with the resolution Copernicus proposed for apparent retrograde motion ?.The online orrerys are miles ahead of anything in the 70's as they offer a bird's eye view of the solar system and it is easy enough to spot that presently Mars in moving 'backwards' against the background stars as the faster Earth overtakes it until April 14th next when the illusion disappears and the motion of Mars returns to its normal direction against the background stars as we leave the slower moving planet behind -

http://math-ed.com/Resources/GIS/Geometry_In_Space/java1/Temp/TLVisPOrbit.html

Cú Giobach

gkell2 wrote: »

Tell me,how confident are you with the resolution Copernicus proposed for apparent retrograde motion ?.The online orrerys are miles ahead of anything in the 70's as they offer a bird's eye view of the solar system and it is easy enough to spot that presently Mars in moving 'backwards' against the background stars as the faster Earth overtakes it until April 14th next when the illusion disappears and the motion of Mars returns to its normal direction against the background stars as we leave the slower moving planet behind -

http://math-ed.com/Resources/GIS/Geometry_In_Space/java1/Temp/TLVisPOrbit.html

1, I'm not getting into one of your very odd discusions on Copernicus or Newton, or engaging with you on your wild ideas about planetary motion.
2, Have you actually seen a real orrery, you don't have to look at it from the side and can look "down on the solar system" too.

gkell2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

1, I'm not getting into one of your very odd discusions on Copernicus or Newton, or engaging with you on your wild ideas about planetary motion.
2, Have you actually seen a real orrery, you don't have to look at it from the side and can look "down on the solar system" too.

So far it is pretty much plain sailing,you have the online orrery,the original words of Copernicus,Kepler and Galileo describing the same thing,the brilliant time lapse footage of today and of course,going outside to put the whole thing together.The shift of Jupiter from the left to the right of Venus due mainly to the motion of the Earth and Venus and the 'backwards' motion of Mars as the Earth overtakes it is easily understood as line of sight observations using the orrery in particular so there is no reason to adopt an alternative view as Newton and his followers did -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct,..." Newton

The reason students are largely unaware of their astronomical heritage and what effectively are simple line of sight conclusions based on the fact that we are standing on a planet in orbital motion around the Sun is due to the unsightly and unacceptable views of mathematicians and that view of Newton is particularly corrupt.Any observer here who has used the online orrery would easily point out that as the Earth now overtakes Mars,the fact that it appears to move 'backwards' doesn't mean it actually is going backwards nor do you need to resolve the backward motion by jumping to the Sun as Newton imagines,retrograde motion is an illusion seen from a moving Earth hence Newton's view is an astronomical non sequitur - a false conclusion is drawn from the observation of retrogrades. I comprehend what Newton is doing in a wider context of 'modeling' and 'predictions' but I don't expect readers here to go down that road .

Men are generally good at line of sight judgments so I do expect that some will figure out the details of what is wrong with Newton's conclusion even without considering the direction he went with that false view.

Cú Giobach

gkell2 wrote: »

So far it is pretty much plain sailing,you have the online orrery,the original words of Copernicus,Kepler and Galileo describing the same thing,the brilliant time lapse footage of today and of course,going outside to put the whole thing together.The shift of Jupiter from the left to the right of Venus due mainly to the motion of the Earth and Venus and the 'backwards' motion of Mars as the Earth overtakes it is easily understood with graphics and animations so there is no reason to adopt an alternative view as Newton and his followers did -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct,..." Newton

The reason students are largely unaware of their astronomical heritage and what effectively are simple line of sight conclusions based on the fact that we are standing on a planet in orbital motion around the Sun is due to the unsightly and unacceptable views of mathematicians and that view of Newton is particularly corrupt.Any observer here who has used the online orrery would easily point out that as the Earth now overtakes Mars,the fact that it appears to move 'backwards' doesn't mean it actually is going backwards nor do you need to resolve the backward motion by jumping to the Sun as Newton imagines,retrograde motion is an illusion seen from a moving Earth hence Newton's view is an astronomical non sequitur - a false conclusion is drawn from the observation of retrogrades. I comprehend what Newton is doing in a wider context of 'modeling' but I don't expect readers here to go down that road however what they may do is consider that the normally easy to understand insights which show how the great astronomers worked out the Earth is in motion around the Sun and the structure of the solar system is being obscured by people with other agendas and this is a tragedy for students and interested adults.

And he's off again. :rolleyes:

gkell2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

And he's off again. :rolleyes:

You do understand that confident men do not suffer condescension and it is not to prove Newton got it wrong,that is obvious enough,it is why students don't encounter the genuine insights of Copernicus and Kepler because of the dominance of people who make silly conclusions for the purpose of 'modeling and predictions'.

Roll your eyes all you wish,if reasonable people want to know how scientists ended up believing that we can control the planet's temperature and indoctrinate kids into this belief,they will have to go through this material where astronomy was almost destroyed.

So,this statement is way off the mark -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct,..." Newton

It only takes a person who looks at Earth overtaking Mars presently to figure that out -

http://math-ed.com/Resources/GIS/Geometry_In_Space/java1/Temp/TLVisPOrbit.html

So,join in the fun and enjoy how Jupiter has moved to the right of Venus when the thick blanket of clouds we had for the last number of days disappears.If you look out at Mars it will have moved 'backwards' against the background stars but don't worry,it is really moving forward due to the Earth is moving faster in its orbital circuit.If you find yourself convinced with Newton that you have to stand on the Sun to resolve retrogrades then maybe astronomy is not for you,that is not an insult,it is just the way it is.

Cú Giobach

gkell2 wrote: »

You do understand that confident men do not suffer condescension and it is not to prove Newton got it wrong,that is obvious enough,it is why students don't encounter the genuine insights of Copernicus and Kepler because of the dominance of people who make silly conclusions for the purpose of 'modeling and predictions'.

Roll your eyes all you wish,if reasonable people want to know how scientists ended up believing that we can control the planet's temperature and indoctrinate kids into this belief,they will have to go through this material where astronomy was almost destroyed.

So,this statement is way off the mark -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct,..." Newton

It only takes a person who looks at Earth overtaking Mars presently to figure that out -

http://math-ed.com/Resources/GIS/Geometry_In_Space/java1/Temp/TLVisPOrbit.html

So,join in the fun and enjoy how Jupiter has moved to the right of Venus when the thick blanket of clouds we had for the last number of days disappears.If you look out at Mars it will have moved 'backwards' against the background stars but don't worry,it is really moving forward due to the Earth is moving faster in its orbital circuit.If you find yourself convinced with Newton that you have to stand on the Sun to resolve retrogrades then maybe astronomy is not for you,that is not an insult,it is just the way it is.

But he didn't say "resolve" he said "appear", you seem to be insinuating he is saying you can only resolve retrograde motion from the Sun, which is incorrect, he did not.
He says from Earth the motions seem to change, but from the Sun they don't and we see the motion as is, which is correct.

gkell2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

But he didn't say "resolve" he said "appear", you seem to be insinuating he is saying you can only resolve retrograde motion from the Sun, which is incorrect, he did not.
He says from Earth the motions seem to change, but from the Sun they don't and we see the motion as is, which is correct.

Most observers know political spin when they see it besides we are not only standing on a moving Earth as it now overtakes Mars,we are also rotating which accounts for the daily return of the Sun so both motions are bound together without having to leave the planet or imagine what things look like from the Sun.Once a person comes to understand the basics of planetary dynamics through all the tools we have today,they are not going to fall for something that is false and especially Newton's unacceptable view which started these modeling and predictions agendas that are now running amok today.

Observers must be clear that the older astronomers used the background stars to gauge not only retrograde motion but the periods for each planet and they organized the structure of the solar system this way -

"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars. This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers wanted to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in Euclid's Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time. Below it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.
With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located above the sun by some authorities, like Plato's Timaeus, but below the sun by others, like Ptolemy [Syntaxis, IX, 1] and many of the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below it. " Copernicus

The ancients had the Sun moving between Venus and Mars as the 365 days it took to complete a year falls between the orbital period of 687 days for Mars and 225 days for Venus.In short there is a whole line of reasoning behind the orbital motion of the Earth that is being shortcircuited by followers of Newton who overreached with their conclusions to suit themselves.A short detour to the online orrery really helps to put observations in place,the use of the background stars and the period it takes a planet to return to the same grouping of stars -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html


To cut a long and very tangled story short,the followers of Newton introduced a rotating celestial sphere or 'right ascension' observing as it is called which completely obliterates appreciation of the motion of planets against the distant stars and to each other as they move around the Sun.The online orrery is in competition with the Ra/Dec celestial sphere which looks like this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYqh72i2mhg

It is really bad business but there is no need to swamp the reader who is unfamiliar with the issues with things they don't need but at least they can say with 100% certainty that those who follow Newton get it wrong by using all the tools we have today to affirm it.If you wish to remain with political spin for Newton's sake then good for you but effectively that is all it will be.

Cú Giobach

gkell2 wrote: »

Most observers know political spin when they see it besides we are not only standing on a moving Earth as it now overtakes Mars,we are also rotating which accounts for the daily return of the Sun so both motions are bound together without having to leave the planet or imagine what things look like from the Sun.Once a person comes to understand the basics of planetary dynamics through all the tools we have today,they are not going to fall for something that is false and especially Newton's unacceptable view which started these modeling and predictions agendas that are now running amok today.

Observers must be clear that the older astronomers used the background stars to gauge not only retrograde motion but the periods for each planet and they organized the structure of the solar system this way -

"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars. This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers wanted to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in Euclid's Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time. Below it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.
With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located above the sun by some authorities, like Plato's Timaeus, but below the sun by others, like Ptolemy [Syntaxis, IX, 1] and many of the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below it. " Copernicus

The ancients had the Sun moving between Venus and Mars as the 365 days it took to complete a year falls between the orbital period of 687 days for Mars and 225 days for Venus.In short there is a whole line of reasoning behind the orbital motion of the Earth that is being shortcircuited by followers of Newton who overreached with their conclusions to suit themselves.A short detour to the online orrery really helps to put observations in place,the use of the background stars and the period it takes a planet to return to the same grouping of stars -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html


To cut a long and very tangled story short,the followers of Newton introduced a rotating celestial sphere or 'right ascension' observing as it is called which completely obliterates appreciation of the motion of planets against the distant stars and to each other as they move around the Sun.The online orrery is in competition with the Ra/Dec celestial sphere which looks like this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYqh72i2mhg

It is really bad business but there is no need to swamp the reader who is unfamiliar with the issues with things they don't need but at least they can say with 100% certainty that those who follow Newton get it wrong by using all the tools we have today to affirm it.If you wish to remain with political spin for Newton's sake then good for you but effectively that is all it will be.

You talk total BS. Bye.

gkell2

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You talk total BS. Bye.

It is great to see dads take their kids outside to identify stars and planets and maybe even try their hand at the challenging exercise of organizing the motions of the planets into their respective orbits,with today's tools it genuinely is fun and gives a satisfaction that will last as long as a person lives.

The main point here is that the astronomy of the solar system is perfectly understandable,needs no mathematics other than the language of geometry and even this is supplied by online orrerys and imaging so the rest is common sense.

muckish

Venus & Jupiter over Mulroy Bay, Co.Donegal. 16th March, 2012.

muckish

muckish wrote: »

Venus & Jupiter over Mulroy Bay, Co.Donegal. 16th March, 2012.

greta shot Muckish, you Donegalians get all the luck

Biggies

The original poster should show his son this video about how, by just observing the skies and the movements of stars and planets, a man can come about laws of planetary motion which work everywhere in the universe and challenge preconceived perceptions of his era.
The programme is over 30 years old but still valid and completely accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICHDl0olsS0

al28283

gkell2 wrote: »

Most observers know political spin when they see it besides we are not only standing on a moving Earth as it now overtakes Mars,we are also rotating which accounts for the daily return of the Sun so both motions are bound together without having to leave the planet or imagine what things look like from the Sun.Once a person comes to understand the basics of planetary dynamics through all the tools we have today,they are not going to fall for something that is false and especially Newton's unacceptable view which started these modeling and predictions agendas that are now running amok today.

Observers must be clear that the older astronomers used the background stars to gauge not only retrograde motion but the periods for each planet and they organized the structure of the solar system this way -

"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars. This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers wanted to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in Euclid's Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time. Below it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.
With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located above the sun by some authorities, like Plato's Timaeus, but below the sun by others, like Ptolemy [Syntaxis, IX, 1] and many of the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below it. " Copernicus

The ancients had the Sun moving between Venus and Mars as the 365 days it took to complete a year falls between the orbital period of 687 days for Mars and 225 days for Venus.In short there is a whole line of reasoning behind the orbital motion of the Earth that is being shortcircuited by followers of Newton who overreached with their conclusions to suit themselves.A short detour to the online orrery really helps to put observations in place,the use of the background stars and the period it takes a planet to return to the same grouping of stars -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html


To cut a long and very tangled story short,the followers of Newton introduced a rotating celestial sphere or 'right ascension' observing as it is called which completely obliterates appreciation of the motion of planets against the distant stars and to each other as they move around the Sun.The online orrery is in competition with the Ra/Dec celestial sphere which looks like this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYqh72i2mhg

It is really bad business but there is no need to swamp the reader who is unfamiliar with the issues with things they don't need but at least they can say with 100% certainty that those who follow Newton get it wrong by using all the tools we have today to affirm it.If you wish to remain with political spin for Newton's sake then good for you but effectively that is all it will be.

Venus and Jupiter is the answer to the Op's question

gkell2

Biggies wrote: »

The original poster should show his son this video about how, by just observing the skies and the movements of stars and planets, a man can come about laws of planetary motion which work everywhere in the universe and challenge preconceived perceptions of his era.
The programme is over 30 years old but still valid and completely accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICHDl0olsS0

There were no 'laws of planetary motion',these things were only attached to Kepler's views by the people in the late 17th century with their own agendas however there is the law of common sense and any observer who goes outside to gain a proper perspective on conjunctions and retrograde motions will have their work cut out for them in making sense of the nightly differences in positions of planets in respect to each other,to a moving Earth and everything moving in one direction around the central Sun.This present conjunction certainly focuses attention on not only the change in position of Venus to Jupiter but the dazzling increase in brightness as a faster Venus moves closer to the Earth just as the headlights of an approaching car increase in brightness due to closer proximity. -

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg

What Kepler did is easily understandable to an interested adult if they have followed the reasoning so far and he never called them 'laws'.The planets move against the background stars,the Earth orbital motion accounts for the apparent backward motions of planets and the length of time it takes each planet to return to the same stellar background reflect its position from the Sun.

In the following time lapse footage,observers can see that Saturn takes longer to return to the same background stars than Jupiter hence Saturn is much further away from the central Sun -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif


"And so if any one take the period, say, of the Earth, which is one
year, and the period of Saturn, which is thirty years, and extract the
cube roots of this ratio and then square the ensuing ratio by squaring
the cube roots, he will have as his numerical products the most just
ratio of the distances of the Earth and Saturn from the sun. For the
cube root of 1 is 1, and the square of it is 1; and the cube root of
30 is greater than 3, and therefore the square of it is greater than
9. And Saturn, at its mean distance from the sun, is slightly higher
than nine times the mean distance of the Earth from the sun." Kepler

He wrote it in a more formal way but there is nothing there that is in anyway different or difficult than the explanation above -

"The proportion existing between the periodic times of any two planets
is exactly the sesquiplicate proportion of the mean distances of the
orbits, or as generally given,the squares of the periodic times are
proportional to the cubes of the mean distances." Kepler

Showing a child that video is unhelpful, students and most adults who haven't heard of conjunctions or retrogrades and what they actually represent can now easily understand them with contemporary online tools and it demonstrates that the work of astronomers such as Copernicus,Galileo and Kepler require nothing more than common sense and provide a great way to develop our innate spacial awareness that will last a lifetime.

gkell2

There is the lovely star and crescent observation out there presently and many flags and coats of arms contain the representation that will always get the attention of all but the most indifferent observer -

http://www.ngw.nl/int/ier/d/drogheda.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent

It is difficult to imagine another celestial object that would substitute for Venus as the display is striking ,even to the modern eye.

zenno

I took a video shot just there of the moon jupiter and venus, though not super clear it's the best this camera can do.

coylemj

Four day old Moon will be very close to Venus on Monday 26th.

It will also be close on April 24th and 25th and May 22nd but not as close as it will be this Monday.

BULLER

This is the best I could manage. Tried using my binoculars with my cam but I couldnt get the focus right. Any insights on how to do this?

Scruff

BULLER wrote: »

This is the best I could manage. Tried using my binoculars with my cam but I couldnt get the focus right. Any insights on how to do this?

Nice! Thats the shot i wanted to take last night but couldnt find my tripod
It really was a fantastic sky last night.

coylemj

Scruff wrote: »

Nice! Thats the shot i wanted to take last night but couldnt find my tripod
It really was a fantastic sky last night.

+1 that's a great shot BULLER. In order to get the dark side of the Moon and the two planets you have to over-expose so the sunlit sde of the Moon will come out like that, I wouldn't worry about focus. Anyway Jupiter looks like a dot so I think you were focussed properly.

peter1892

Got this earlier on:

fermi-paradox

I was trying for piccies of moon, venus and jupiter, but couldn't get it right, so had a go a the moon by itself. This is very poor which is not surprising given the Heath-Robinson set up I took it with but there is one thing I would ask any experts assembled here,

At the lower left end of the crescent there are two dots, they are on all the shots I took, are they mountains catching the sunrise on the moon or am I just being an idiot.

bryaner

Ardent wrote: »

Jupiter and Venus. Jupiter being the higher of the two.

Top tip: install the excellent and free Stellarium - great app for discovering what's in the sky at any given moment.

Thanks for the app dude really good

shizz

bryaner wrote: »

Thanks for the app dude really good

I'd also recommend Celestia for having a stroll around the solar system and the galaxy

Green Diesel

Snapped myself my first pic of the moon and Venus.

Sorry bout the quality, was limited to my smartphone, and I couldnt get it to work with the binoculars! :pac:

deRanged

my attempt at the moon and Venus.


the moon and Venus. by Brian Clayton, on Flickr

afterhours

I see 2 moons in front of that planet, the second planet (Venus) isn't there. Tonight (26th) I think it's Jupiter up there shining brightly......