Abs wanted but....

Dotcomdolly

Do I really have to lose more weight? Can you lose bodyfat (to reveal the amazing abs I have hiding ) without losing weight in lbs.
I have gone from 161>126 pounds (I'm 5'3) over the last few years and obviously my belly looks a lot better than it used to. A recent weight-training programme definitely added some more definition but I want a belly like this



or even better.. Some of the problem is I have loose skin & stretchmarks from weight & kids..and I don't really want to lose another half a stone, I'm happy at this weight, just want the belly to look better...
Is it an either or situation?

TheZ

I found that when I cut out sugar (not completely but made a big effort to avoid it) and ate low carb generally that the abs showed up - slight drop in weight alright but only slight

it's also the case I think that
X% body fat looks same as say (X% minus 3 or 4) but if you go to X% (minus 5 or 6) you can look completely different

Dotcomdolly

TheZ wrote: »

I found that when I cut out sugar (not completely but made a big effort to avoid it) and ate low carb generally that the abs showed up - slight drop in weight alright but only slight

it's also the case I think that
X% body fat looks same as say (X% minus 3 or 4) but if you go to X% (minus 5 or 6) you can look completely different

Yes I should have mentioned that at the same time as the new programme I transitioned to paleo and the combination took 10cm of belly off in 6 weeks! So I have very little added sugar and sub 100g carbs most days.

yosser hughes

TheZ wrote: »

I found that when I cut out sugar (not completely but made a big effort to avoid it) and ate low carb generally that the abs showed up - slight drop in weight alright but only slight

it's also the case I think that
X% body fat looks same as say (X% minus 3 or 4) but if you go to X% (minus 5 or 6) you can look completely different

I agree about the sugar. I'm no expert so perhaps others on this forum could comment on it. However I used to take sugar in tea and coffee. I gave it up and I did notice the difference in my stomach area. I don't need to lose weight so this slight change really helped and i didn't appear to lose any weight.
I'd appreciate others comments on the benefits of just giving up sugar in your tea!
In fact I'd say if you were to give up bread and sugar the results could be dramatic.
What do the experts think?

Dotcomdolly

We posted close to each other there yosser, yeah I don't eat sugar or wheat anymore (see my "how to go primal" thread) and it did make a big difference, but still nto there yet, which is the problem.

200yrolecrank

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

We posted close to each other there yosser, yeah I don't eat sugar or wheat anymore (see my "how to go primal" thread) and it did make a big difference, but still nto there yet, which is the problem.

You need to get your body fat below 8% if you want defined abs,weight loss will be inevitable.
High interval cardio is great for boosting your metabolism and good on you for cutting sugar it's toxic for the body.

Orla K

200yrolecrank wrote: »

You need to get your body fat below 8% if you want defined abs,weight loss will be inevitable.
High interval cardio is great for boosting your metabolism and good on you for cutting sugar it's toxic for the body.

8% only counts for guys, for women it's something higher isn't it? 15-17%?

200yrolecrank

Orla K wrote: »

200yrolecrank wrote: »

You need to get your body fat below 8% if you want defined abs,weight loss will be inevitable.
High interval cardio is great for boosting your metabolism and good on you for cutting sugar it's toxic for the body.

8% only counts for guys, for women it's something higher isn't it? 15-17%?

Your right on guys I forgot the op was female as I couldn't see the pic on my phone.
Closer to 13% for a female to see abs

Dotcomdolly

I had a look at this calculator & if that's the case I don't see seeing my abs happening!
I'm estimating I'm at 25% bodyfat now at 126 lbs, so even to get to 20% I'd need to lose another 6lbs. I don't want to have gorgeous abs (under my clothes) and a scrawny face (I am 38 after all) on show...Hmmmm this is my conundrum.

Orla K

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

I had a look at this calculator & if that's the case I don't see seeing my abs happening!
I'm estimating I'm at 25% bodyfat now at 126 lbs, so even to get to 20% I'd need to lose another 6lbs. I don't want to have gorgeous abs (under my clothes) and a scrawny face (I am 38 after all) on show...Hmmmm this is my conundrum.

Probably better not to estimate, you could be way off. Can you get someone to measure, are you a member of a gym?

200yrolecrank

Orla K wrote: »

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

I had a look at this calculator & if that's the case I don't see seeing my abs happening!
I'm estimating I'm at 25% bodyfat now at 126 lbs, so even to get to 20% I'd need to lose another 6lbs. I don't want to have gorgeous abs (under my clothes) and a scrawny face (I am 38 after all) on show...Hmmmm this is my conundrum.

Probably better not to estimate, you could be way off. Can you get someone to measure, are you a member of a gym?

Your best to get a person to take a couple of consistent readings with a calipers for accuracy.
Those electronic ones are generally way off the mark.
You can increase your muscle mass and keep your weight but you really need to get the body fat down.
Well done on losing your earlier weight,you would be very capable of losing a good % of the body fat.

Dotcomdolly

My home scales says 32% (first thing in morning, no food or water)

A p.t did one with calipers about 3 months ago got 17% - which I simple don't believe, I do not look like 17%!

so I estimated somewhere between the two.

Jarren

Forget about scales /calipers,mirror is your best friend.

Jarren

Forget about scales /calipers,mirror is your best friend.

200yrolecrank

Jarren wrote: »

Forget about scales /calipers,mirror is your best friend.

That's false,
the calipers is the least expensive option and is accurate if used correctly.
The electronic scales that measure your bmi are not worth much for accuracy and consistency.

Jarren

200yrolecrank wrote: »

Jarren wrote: »

Forget about scales /calipers,mirror is your best friend.

That's false,
the calipers is the least expensive option and is accurate if used correctly.
The electronic scales that measure your bmi are not worth much for accuracy and consistency.

What is false?

Getting results is all about the diet. Getting your bodyfat tested is ok to have a place to start, but it's not always accurate. If anything go by the mirror, measurements and take progress pics.

Hanley

If you want abs, you need to drop day. Dropping fat means dropping weight, unless you add an equivalent amount of muscle, which probably won't happen if you're trying to lose fat.

Loose skin, water retention, eating crap can all cause a bloated/soft look which masks your abs, BUT, generally unless you can at least see your abs from time to time, the little things aren't the problem and you're then back to dropping body fat.

Apologies if any of that sounds condescending, sometimes it just helps to run it thru.

200yrolecrank

Jarren wrote: »

200yrolecrank wrote: »

Jarren wrote: »

Forget about scales /calipers,mirror is your best friend.

That's false,
the calipers is the least expensive option and is accurate if used correctly.
The electronic scales that measure your bmi are not worth much for accuracy and consistency.

What is false?

Getting results is all about the diet. Getting your bodyfat tested is ok to have a place to start, but it's not always accurate. If anything go by the mirror, measurements and take progress pics.

How can you record your progress by looking in the mirror,seriously.
The op wants abs to get their she has to lower her bmi,a calipers will keep a record of her body fat in different areas if used correctly.
Looking in the mirror will not give you your body fat percentage or what percentage of muscle you have.
Diet is vital but so is exercise and the right execrise,you can't spot reduce so to see definition body fat had to give.

Hanley

200yrolecrank wrote: »

How can you record your progress by looking in the mirror,seriously.
The op wants abs to get their she has to lower her bmi,a calipers will keep a record of her body fat in different areas if used correctly.
Looking in the mirror will not give you your body fat percentage or what percentage of muscle you have.
Diet is vital but so is exercise and the right execrise,you can't spot reduce so to see definition body fat had to give.

You're being pedantic.

No measurement matters if you're not happy with how you look - which ultimately is the reason you're taking the measurements in the first place.

So yeah, they're a useful diagnostic/recording tool, but numbers are a support tool, not the end goal.

Mellor

200yrolecrank wrote: »

How can you record your progress by looking in the mirror,seriously.
The op wants abs to get their she has to lower her bmi,a calipers will keep a record of her body fat in different areas if used correctly.
Looking in the mirror will not give you your body fat percentage or what percentage of muscle you have.

Calipers will record her skin fold measurements but it won't aid her weight loss. Diet and exercise will determine her weight/fat loss. Calipers are just a method to track it. The mirror is another method. The fact that it doesn't give figures doesn't matter.

Simply, she knows she needs to lsoe some weight to see her abs. Exactly how much isn't a major concern right now.

Hanley

Mellor wrote: »

Calipers will record her skin fold measurements but it won't aid her weight loss. Diet and exercise will determine her weight/fat loss. Calipers are just a method to track it. The mirror is another method. The fact that it doesn't give figures doesn't matter.

Simply, she knows she needs to lsoe some weight to see her abs. Exactly how much isn't a major concern right now.

I'm going to hop back onto the other side of the argument now and say if I was going to objectively track one thing, it would be caliper readings.

People's minds play tricks on them. I still don't think I look remotely lean, but people say I do and the calipers say I do. I have days where I think I look sh*t and days where I think I look great. I don't want to think how many years exp I have at this stage, and MY mind still plays tricks on me in the mirror even when I'm trying to be objective. For someone with less exp to just rely on a visual tool is a big ask (photos would be a better idea as a starting point!!).

Mellor

Hanley wrote: »

I'm going to hop back onto the other side of the argument now and say if I was going to objectively track one thing, it would be caliper readings.

People's minds play tricks on them. I still don't think I look remotely lean, but people say I do and the calipers say I do. I have days where I think I look sh*t and days where I think I look great. I don't want to think how many years exp I have at this stage, and MY mind still plays tricks on me in the mirror even when I'm trying to be objective. For someone with less exp to just rely on a visual tool is a big ask (photos would be a better idea as a starting point!!).

When I said mirror. I actually meant visual appearance in general. Tracking with a photo etc. Should of been clearer. Obviously its not infallible due to things like bloating.
Body dysmorphia aside, I don't think anybody can be complete objective all of the time when to comes to their body.
I often get tip the scales at a weight I was at a few months ago and think I don't look any better. Until I see an old photo.

If you have easy access to caliper testing then of course its a good idea to use it. I was just pointing out that its not the only acceptable way if it isn't an option. For example, I can't get anyone around me to do it cheaply. So I have to use scales and visuals, and then fork out for a dexa scan every 6-8 months.

Dotcomdolly

The measuring is not a problem for me, I use the scales, my brilliant new orbitape and once a month I take front & side pics in underwear. I started doing this last Summer when I did 12 weeks of "chalean extreme" weightraining dvd and even though I only lost a few pounds I could see a very noticebale difference so I kept up with the monthly assesment pics.

I think hanley answered my question in that if I want to see the abs I would need to lose weight, which is not something I really want to do. So you can't lose a layer of bodyfat (covering abs) by gaining muscle, only be dropping weight, but you can alter your bodyfat percentageby gaining muscle....Is that right?

Thanks for all the replies

xgtdec

Hanley wrote: »

I'm going to hop back onto the other side of the argument now and say if I was going to objectively track one thing, it would be caliper readings.

People's minds play tricks on them. I still don't think I look remotely lean, but people say I do and the calipers say I do. I have days where I think I look sh*t and days where I think I look great. I don't want to think how many years exp I have at this stage, and MY mind still plays tricks on me in the mirror even when I'm trying to be objective. For someone with less exp to just rely on a visual tool is a big ask (photos would be a better idea as a starting point!!).

So sorry to jack this thread for a minute but Hanleys commets above were interesting to my own scenario!!

My last 2 caliper readings have been really hard to take, ill make a long story short:)
My legs, chest and shoulders and upper back are lean and defined, and im happy with them, my remaining fat(lots of it) is ALL concentrated in what i refer to as "the ring", sort of a below nipples above hips line!!

Now it is going, as in i am losing it, but it seems to shift around preventing me from getting a decent measurement, i know im struggling to explain it....eh.....put it like this, the remainder of my fat around the middle seems to have a very very volitile consistency from week to week, small clumps of soft/hard fat constantly shifting aound making it so tough to get a reading, would the morror/clothes be the better gauge until this consistency settles down....dear god tells me it settles, does any one get what i mean:o

Zamboni

What about if a dieters skeletal muscle is emaciated and has a really low bodyfat%?
Their abs still look sh1t because there is feck all muscle there.
You need decent abdominals combined with the low bodyfat to have good abs.

Hanley

xgtdec wrote: »

So sorry to jack this thread for a minute but Hanleys commets above were interesting to my own scenario!!

My last 2 caliper readings have been really hard to take, ill make a long story short:)
My legs, chest and shoulders and upper back are lean and defined, and im happy with them, my remaining fat(lots of it) is ALL concentrated in what i refer to as "the ring", sort of a below nipples above hips line!!

Now it is going, as in i am losing it, but it seems to shift around preventing me from getting a decent measurement, i know im struggling to explain it....eh.....put it like this, the remainder of my fat around the middle seems to have a very very volitile consistency from week to week, small clumps of soft/hard fat constantly shifting aound making it so tough to get a reading, would the morror/clothes be the better gauge until this consistency settles down....dear god tells me it settles, does any one get what i mean:o

First - where are you measuring your upper back? I'd be very surprised if your sub scap measurement was proper lean and your abs were not!!

I don't really get your question tbh, but if you're saying some areas increase while others decrease, I'd just take total mm and a few measurements and look to see if it's trending downwards in total. If it is, perfect. If it's not, something's wrong!!

Like if you're diet is good and you've calc'd kcals correctly, it will go. It has too.

Calc'n the kcals can be the challenge tho as it's quite a dynamic numbers and subject to a lot more variables than people probably realise.

Red Cortina

DCD-how long is it since you've had your children? I've had no babies but I would imagine that it takes time for things to settle in the tummy region after having them?

I personally think that eating real food and training hard consistently will ultimately leave you with a decent body, certainly better than an awful lot of folks out there. I also think that eating a low carb diet while training hard is on a hiding to no-where.

xgtdec

Hey....who said anything about proper lean:p

But yes its all trending downwards so no worries, the concern is that losing a mm off the gut is great but 6 weeks later that 1mm is back but the downward trend continues, its as if the fat around the middle has moved around in order to avoid being lost...but all good....question answered!!

Dotcomdolly

Red Cortina wrote: »

DCD-how long is it since you've had your children? I've had no babies but I would imagine that it takes time for things to settle in the tummy region after having them?

I personally think that eating real food and training hard consistently will ultimately leave you with a decent body, certainly better than an awful lot of folks out there. I also think that eating a low carb diet while training hard is on a hiding to no-where.

the youngest is 5, and I am in better shape now (slimmer, fitter & stronger) than when I got pregnant with either of them. The skin is fuked up but it doesn't bother me (well, only a little bit, more the lack of elasticty than the stretchmarks)

Zamboni, you are right, sure I see the girls on ANTM and they are slim & look great but they are so weak, they just commented on it this week that one girl because she had such a weak core that when she lay sideways her little bit of tummy just pooched out. I can see some definition, a slight dip at the sides, and I can feel that it is good & hard under there..

I think you are dead right Red C and I will just continue what I'm doing and not get fixated on this one mission, sure what's going to happen if I do get them - start wearing crop tops for the school pick up?

Red Cortina

Dotcomdolly wrote: »

the youngest is 5, and I am in better shape now (slimmer, fitter & stronger) than when I got pregnant with either of them. The skin is fuked up but it doesn't bother me (well, only a little bit, more the lack of elasticty than the stretchmarks)

Zamboni, you are right, sure I see the girls on ANTM and they are slim & look great but they are so weak, they just commented on it this week that one girl because she had such a weak core that when she lay sideways her little bit of tummy just pooched out. I can see some definition, a slight dip at the sides, and I can feel that it is good & hard under there..

I think you are dead right Red C and I will just continue what I'm doing and not get fixated on this one mission, sure what's going to happen if I do get them - start wearing crop tops for the school pick up?

I think you are being super hard on yourself, just like the rest of us women!

The thing is that you are being very consistent with your training and diet and have seen great results to date. However you are probably not going to see such dramatic results going forward IMO. So the incentive to train/keep diet on track will not be as strong.....

I know from reading your log that you are training for a race at the mo. After you have finished that would you consider training for a different goal? So instead of training to reach a certain weight or running time, do some hypertrophy training coupled with a diet to support gaining some muscle (though I don't know if it is even possible for women to gain much muscle...) Or else work to a strength goal? Just throwing ideas out there.....

Dotcomdolly

Ah I don't think so Red Cortina, just like to set myself a taget, and visible abs was one I had in mind, but I have decided that if losing more weight is what it takes (as I suspected) I will forget it, have to keep my bootiful youthful face
Yes certainly the plan is to get back to weight training after I nail this race, and when doing that I usually have a weight in mind - the barbell not me! - last programme I started at 30kg squat and my goal was to get to bodyweight in the 6 weeks and I did it. Recently I saw one of the p.t's off duty doing some heavy lifting & that turned me on so I might get in touch with him and work towards a 100kg deadlift, and a pull-up, would love to able to do one of them.

howtomake

You've made a great transformation, and yes keep the beautiful youthful face.

Red Cortina

Fair play on the big goals, keeps things interesting:)