Camelot

newuser89

Ive heard today off a friend that apparently Camelot is the best horse Aidan o brien ever trained and is expected to win guineas and derby
He got this off a guy he gos to Cheltenham preview night with every year .
And apparently this guy is a big gambler and was talking to Aidan o brien himself
What does anyone think of this or is it the same talk every year about a diff horse.

jimjamcos

newuser89 wrote: »

Ive heard today off a friend that apparently Camelot is the best horse Aidan o brien ever trained and is expected to win guineas and derby
He got this off a guy he gos to Cheltenham preview night with every year .
And apparently this guy is a big gambler and was talking to Aidan o brien himself
What does anyone think of this or is it the same talk every year about a diff horse.

The style with which he won the Racing Post Trophy was absolutely superb. Joseph simply had to press the button (slightly Frankel style) for him to cruise from last to first in matter of seconds. He's definitely the best AOB horse I've seen in years, looking like he possesses far greater natural speed that the over-hyped So You Think. His prices for the races you mention at 5/2 and 3/1 are utterly ridiculous as an antepost options at present given anything could happen between now and then (injury etc.) and I'd far rather chance Born to Sea which could be anything at reasonable odds.

UnitedIrishman

Visually looked very impressive winning as a 2-yo and if he trains on then he'll definitely be the best I've seen from O'Brien.

The horse I'm looking forward to seeing this year is Dabirsim, looked an absolute demon on Arc day. Think they've ruled him out running in the Guineas though in order to run in the French equivalent.

hucklebuck

Pure sh!te if you ask me, every year X is the best horse he has ever trained. It's like L Franco, he says nearly every horse is the best horse he has ever ridden.

I like Camelot but would not touch him at that price at this stage, I agree on Born To Sea being a much more viable bet.

mccarte2

Camelot in 2011 = St Nicholas Abbey in 2009

Camelot won one of the worst Racing Post Trophies in years.

Any chance the mods can lock this thread until the proper racing is over on Friday week? :pac:

jimjamcos

mccarte2 wrote: »

Camelot in 2011 = St Nicholas Abbey in 2009

Camelot won one of the worst Racing Post Trophies in years.

Any chance the mods can lock this thread until the proper racing is over on Friday week? :pac:

In reality, you can't say that until you see how he goes next year and in fairness St Nic did the business in Breeders Cup last year, however inconsistent he was!

mccarte2

jimjamcos wrote: »

In reality, you can't say that until you see how he goes next year and in fairness St Nic did the business in Breeders Cup last year, however inconsistent he was!

In reality, I can say what I want (once Sean Sherlock says it's ok)

UrbanSea

Excuse me if I'm asking a stupid question, but when did Montjeu last have a group winning 3 year old over a mile?

Slattsy

Won well yesterday lads, all things considered.

Really fancy him to clean up this year and go unbeaten. There doesn't seem to be much out there that could put it up to him.

Tattersalls Gold Cup and Prince of Wales next up. Can't wait.

tryfix

He should clean up in races where he doesn't meet anything more highly rated than himself. But a King George would be beyond his abilities.

A very similar horse to St Nicholas Abbey, with a similar turn of foot, but he may be sharp enough to take a few top 10f races, wheras St Nicholas Abbey needs 12f to show his best.

Don't think Camelot is capable of running above 124/125, but he won't meet many others that can either and when he does he'll make the price of the others.

jimjamcos

Slattsy wrote: »

Won well yesterday lads, all things considered.

Really fancy him to clean up this year and go unbeaten. There doesn't seem to be much out there that could put it up to him.

Tattersalls Gold Cup and Prince of Wales next up. Can't wait.

I can see Cirrus Des Aigles and Animal Kingdom putting it up to him for starters. Going to be a great race if 3 of them line up together!

Gringo180

I will be following 1 horse over 12 furlongs this year and thats Al Kazeem, won nicely few weeks back after a year off the course with a bad injury but seemed to retain all of his ability and I reckon we havent seen the best of this animal.

klairondavis

He'll be very hard to beat on decent ground over 10 and 12 furlongs. If they run him on heavy ground again or drop him back to a mile then he's one to confidently oppose.

Itziger

klairondavis wrote: »

He'll be very hard to beat on decent ground over 10 and 12 furlongs. If they run him on heavy ground again or drop him back to a mile then he's one to confidently oppose.

They'll surely not bring him back to a mile with all the 10 and 12 furlong races around. Right now there doesn't seem to be a superstar among the older horses at those distances.

tryfix

I'd like to see Parish Hall stepped up in trip. That was a very slow run race that Camelot won yesterday and Parish Hall stayed on well even though he was well beat. There's a lot of stamina in his pedigree. Unfortunately, the chances of a Dewhurst winner and potential stallion running in staying races is fairly slim.

klairondavis

Itziger wrote: »

They'll surely not bring him back to a mile with all the 10 and 12 furlong races around. Right now there doesn't seem to be a superstar among the older horses at those distances.

I think it is unlikely they would drop him back or run him on heavy ground again after last year. On decent ground over a mile and a quarter and a mile and a half, he'll be hard to beat. Not a lot of top class competition around at those distances as you point out.

faoile@n

klairondavis wrote: »

I think it is unlikely they would drop him back or run him on heavy ground again after last year. On decent ground over a mile and a quarter and a mile and a half, he'll be hard to beat. Not a lot of top class competition around at those distances as you point out.

What about Cirrus des Aigles, Animal Kingdom or Snow Fairy?

Not top class enough for you?

Slattsy

faoile@n wrote: »

What about Cirrus des Aigles, Animal Kingdom or Snow Fairy?

Not top class enough for you?

Camelot will beat everything this year!

Gringo180

Slattsy wrote: »

Camelot will beat everything this year!

The French gelding when fit will destroy him ;-)

Slattsy

Gringo180 wrote: »

The French gelding when fit will destroy him ;-)

I'll be mopping up and tasty prices once he goes over to the UK. If he's a working man's price at all.

Should be a joy to see him on good to firm over 10f.

Gringo180

Slattsy wrote: »

I'll be mopping up and tasty prices once he goes over to the UK. If he's a working man's price at all.

Should be a joy to see him on good to firm over 10f.

Yeah looking forward to seen him as a 4yo but I will be siding with CDA if they clash. I wonder is the breeders cup classic Camelots main goal this season as I think O Brien mentioned that he will race at 10f more than the 12f.

klairondavis

faoile@n wrote: »

What about Cirrus des Aigles, Animal Kingdom or Snow Fairy?

Not top class enough for you?

On fast ground, I think he has the beating of all of them. Group 1 horses without a doubt but hardly in the Frankel/Sea The Stars bracket who we've seen at 10f in recent years.

Gringo180

klairondavis wrote: »

On fast ground, I think he has the beating of all of them. Group 1 horses without a doubt but hardly in the Frankel/Sea The Stars bracket who we've seen at 10f in recent years.

Lets be honest those horses you mentioned are maybe the best theres been at the distance ever, Camelot is hardly in there class either.

SRFC

Cannot wait to lay this beast wherever he turns up in a proper race,beat his pacemaker ffs lads this the same horse that couldnt pass Encke wont be winning anything decent imo won the worse guieneas and without doubt the worse derby ive ever seen.

Slattsy

SRFC wrote: »

Cannot wait to lay this beast wherever he turns up in a proper race,beat his pacemaker ffs lads this the same horse that couldnt pass Encke wont be winning anything decent imo won the worse guieneas and without doubt the worse derby ive ever seen.

Fairly sure you posted something very similar about Dawn Approach recently....

SRFC

Slattsy wrote: »

Fairly sure you posted something very similar about Dawn Approach recently....

What has Dawn Approach simonsig or anyother winner I might have laid got to do with Camelot? Good luck backing this donkey in proper grp1's I'll enjoy spending your money


tar

Slattsy

SRFC wrote: »

What has Dawn Approach simonsig or anyother winner I might have laid got to do with Camelot? Good luck backing this donkey in proper grp1's I'll enjoy spending your money


tar

I didn't mention Simonsig. Paranoid about that still?
Every forum needs a clown, keep it up.

Tar spelt backwards spells what?
:-)

SRFC

Slattsy wrote: »

Every forum needs a clown, keep it up.

Tar spelt backwards spells what?
:-)

Ill be laying you a special double sp just to get this screw when he runs,cant wait for the excuses ''ah sure look,listen x5


There's a few 3 yr olds unraced that gallop all over this camelot

jimjamcos

No way does Camelot deserve to be antepost fav for Prince of Wales Stakes - he's still got it all to prove.

Cirrus Des Aigles got closer to Frankel than any other horse while Animal Kingdom came from way back to be a brilliant 2nd to the American Frankel, Wise Dan, in the Breeders Cup Mile. He had a well-beaten Excelebration behind him in that race too.

I hope Camelot continues to be priced on potential/hype as I'll be following CDA or more likely the yank if they meet.

SRFC

jimjamcos wrote: »

No way does Camelot deserve to be antepost fav for Prince of Wales Stakes - he's still got it all to prove.

Cirrus Des Aigles got closer to Frankel than any other horse while Animal Kingdom came from way back to be a brilliant 2nd to the American Frankel, Wise Dan, in the Breeders Cup Mile. He had a well-beaten Excelebration behind him in that race too.

I hope Camelot continues to be priced on potential/hype as I'll be following CDA or more likely the yank if they meet.

If camelot ran against CDA tomorrow I'd honestly get every penny I have and have it on him to beat Camelot.

jimjamcos

SRFC wrote: »

If camelot ran against CDA tomorrow I'd honestly get every penny I have and have it on him to beat Camelot.

Me too, me too.

Slattsy

SRFC wrote: »

Ill be laying you a special double sp just to get this screw when he runs,cant wait for the excuses ''ah sure look,listen x5


There's a few 3 yr olds unraced that gallop all over this camelot

Double Sp could still be only 2/1

Is there betting anywhere? Too early still probably.

SRFC

Slattsy wrote: »

Double Sp could still be only 2/1

Is there betting anywhere? Too early still probably.

Tongue in cheek but seriously would anybody have Camelot as fav to beat CDA never mind any the other horses that are half decent?

Slattsy

I know. He has lbs to find I'd imagine on official rating, no idea what they are mind you.

All hype from Coolmore. He can only beat what's in front of him though and as he's held up in his races he's never going to win by a wide margin. That's why I think he's much better than he's shown and the better the opposition the better he'll be.

He'll be 6/4. Rough price at Ascot.

klairondavis

Gringo180 wrote: »

Lets be honest those horses you mentioned are maybe the best theres been at the distance ever, Camelot is hardly in there class either.

Of course not but I was pulled up on saying that there is no "top class" horse around at 10-12 furlongs at the moment.Those two are what I would consider top class, not Snow Fairy and Cirrus Des Aigles. They are both very good but they are beatable.

Camelot is subject to a lot of unnecessary Coolmore hype but it takes a damn good horse to win both a Guineas and a Derby regardless of how weak the respective renewals were. Looking at the horses he is likely to face this year - the likes of Snow Fairy and Cirrus Des Aigles, there is nothing between that pair and St Nicholas Abbey on last year's form. I would be confident that Camelot will prove to be a better horse than St Nick in time.

SRFC

klairondavis wrote: »

Of course not but I was pulled up on saying that there is no "top class" horse around at 10-12 furlongs at the moment.Those two are what I would consider top class, not Snow Fairy and Cirrus Des Aigles. They are both very good but they are beatable.

Camelot is subject to a lot of unnecessary Coolmore hype but it takes a damn good horse to win both a Guineas and a Derby regardless of how weak the respective renewals were. Looking at the horses he is likely to face this year - the likes of Snow Fairy and Cirrus Des Aigles, there is nothing between that pair and St Nicholas Abbey on last year's form. I would be confident that Camelot will prove to be a better horse than St Nick in time.

The epsom derby he won was pathetic seriously,I think about one winner has come out of the race so far,


look at the 2nd in the guineas french fifteen I'd run faster than him meself,wouldnt lead CDA up the gallops very average guineas the likes of trumpet major in behind snow fairy would eat that guineas field camelot was hard pushed to beat them,


Got well put in his place in the Arc,Couldnt win a St.Leger even though he got a bad ride its surprising he couldnt beat encke.

klairondavis

I wouldn't hold the Leger or the Arc against him. The Leger at Doncaster is a graveyard for supposed good things. It's worth remembering that Snow Fairy herself was a well beaten 4th in the Leger in 2010 while Rewilding who finished behind her went on to take the Prince Of Wales at Royal Ascot in 2011. Camelot probably didn't see out the 1m6 trip as well as they'd hoped and Joseph was outridden by Barzalona. The ground in the Arc was much softer than the official going description and it was too soon after a hard race at Doncaster.

He will prove himself as a very good Group 1 horse this season as long as he's not asked to race on soft ground. The 1m2 campaign maps itself out from here if that's the route they are going down - Curragh (May), Ascot (June), Sandown (July), York (August), Leopardstown (September), Ascot (October). There's six possible Group 1s that he could win over 1m2 in the next six months. The Tattersalls Gold Cup will probably be a gimme but he's capable of landing a few more on top of that.

carpothepunk

Barza rode Joey, and every other jock in the race to sleep that day. Sure he was juiced up to the gills anyway.

Decent performance yesterday, certainly wasn't 100% and certainly wasn't over extended. Would be all over CDA like a rash, if they were to meet, however.

Slattsy

Said it before and I'll say it again, the Irish Derby bottomed Camelot.
They should never have run him on heavy ground.

UrbanSea

Cirrus des Aigles is top class. Anyone who thinks a horse with a rating of 132 isn't top class surely needs their heads checked. Snow Fairy is nowhere near that good likeable as she is.

People are always very quick to be harsh to Camelot on his Arc. Terrible ground that day, and when you lose 3 shoes in a race it's not going to be great

Gringo180

klairondavis wrote: »

Of course not but I was pulled up on saying that there is no "top class" horse around at 10-12 furlongs at the moment.Those two are what I would consider top class, not Snow Fairy and Cirrus Des Aigles. They are both very good but they are beatable.

Camelot is subject to a lot of unnecessary Coolmore hype but it takes a damn good horse to win both a Guineas and a Derby regardless of how weak the respective renewals were. Looking at the horses he is likely to face this year - the likes of Snow Fairy and Cirrus Des Aigles, there is nothing between that pair and St Nicholas Abbey on last year's form. I would be confident that Camelot will prove to be a better horse than St Nick in time.

I think your been a tad bit harsh on Cirrus Des Aigles he is a serious horse and obviously not as good as Frankel but is still top class in his own right, im sure if he wasn't a gelding and was still running at 7 he would of had at least 2 Arc wins on his cv, he is the only horse who got within touching distance of Frankel at his best and thats know mean feat. I will be backing this horse all season because if he still retains his ability at 7 it will take a superstar to beat him.

klairondavis

Gringo180 wrote: »

I think your been a tad bit harsh on Cirrus Des Aigles he is a serious horse and obviously not as good as Frankel but is still top class in his own right, im sure if he wasn't a gelding and was still running at 7 he would of had at least 2 Arc wins on his cv, he is the only horse who got within touching distance of Frankel at his best and thats know mean feat. I will be backing this horse all season because if he still retains his ability at 7 it will take a superstar to beat him.

He's very good but he's beatable. I think his form shows that. Whether Camelot is up to beating him? Who knows. I wouldn't back either horse with great confidence in a match.

myboycharlie

No way should Camelot be fav against CDA, CDA is a machine of a horse he goes on any ground, and ran a superb race behind frankel in ascot last year. He is a proven class performer. Lets remember the 3 year old crop of 2012 was one of the worst 3 year old crops ever seen and what Camelot beat in last years derby was pathetic, the only horse to win out of what he beat after the derby was thought worthy in a group 2. Struggled to beat born to sea in an irish derby who then came out and got beat 6 1/2 lengths by famous name and was getting 9 pounds. And we all know famous name is not group 1 class.
Camelot will pick up a few mickey mouse races like last Monday, the tattersalls gold cup but once he runs against any top class proven group 1 performers I will be pressing the lay button.

tryfix

myboycharlie wrote: »

No way should Camelot be fav against CDA, CDA is a machine of a horse he goes on any ground, and ran a superb race behind frankel in ascot last year. He is a proven class performer. Lets remember the 3 year old crop of 2012 was one of the worst 3 year old crops ever seen and what Camelot beat in last years derby was pathetic, the only horse to win out of what he beat after the derby was thought worthy in a group 2. Struggled to beat born to sea in an irish derby who then came out and got beat 6 1/2 lengths by famous name and was getting 9 pounds. And we all know famous name is not group 1 class.
Camelot will pick up a few mickey mouse races like last Monday, the tattersalls gold cup but once he runs against any top class proven group 1 performers I will be pressing the lay button.

There's a gulf in class between what Cirrus Des Aigles has shown at 10f and in anything that St Nicholas Abbey or Camelot have ever shown.

CDA ( 130 ) ran Frankel ( 140 ) the supposedly greatest horse of the modern era to 1 3/4l, he also beat So You Think, Snow Fairy, and Nathaniel over 10f. St Nicholas Abbey ( 124 ) a horse that Camelot is on a par with with ratings wise is only equal over 10f to Faarh 122, the pair beaten 7l by Frankel. Camelot does appear to be a bit faster than St Nicholas Abbey and should be able to produce close to his best ( 124 ) in 10f races. The thing is his 124 performance in the Derby looks slightly overrated by a 1lb or 2lb, leaving him with a bit to find on last year to run to 124 this year.

Still, there are only a few horses running above that mark that he'll meet. CDA on last years form would kick him around the place, but CDA at 7 is getting old and Snow Fairy is a bit injury prone and getting on a bit. The German Prix Ganay winner Pastorius would be my idea of a value bet if he runs against Camelot at any stage of the season. The thing with Camelot, would be take it that his turn of foot will allow him smash inferior horses, but his ability to improve on his 3yo rating is very debatable.

myboycharlie

Al Kazeem if he comes over for the tattersalls gold cup could be interesting against Camelot

Gringo180

myboycharlie wrote: »

Al Kazeem if he comes over for the tattersalls gold cup could be interesting against Camelot

Said it already mate, I will back Al Kazeem against Camelot any day of the week.

myboycharlie

Gringo180 wrote: »

Said it already mate, I will back Al Kazeem against Camelot any day of the week.

Sorry mate didn't read that quote but ur dead right I would back him over Camelot aswel

UrbanSea

Not sure I'd take Al Kazeem over Camelot especially at ten furlongs

kfallon

I'd have Camelot all day over Al Kazeem tbh!

TheMilkyPirate

If CDA isn't top class I'll leave it so.

UrbanSea

Not sure why people don't rate Cirrus des Aigles. Maybe it's because he's a gelding by a totally unfashionable stallion and trainer. If he was trained by O'Brien he'd be considered top class