Why RSA keeps on publishing materials with incorrect information?

CiniO

I spotted it some time ago, that there was a mistake in Rules of The Road.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:

• a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,
• a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or
• a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

That would mean, that buses are not allowed to use most right-hand lane on motorways, meaning that they are not allowed to overtake on 2 lane motorways at all. That is however not true, while there is no regulations prohibiting buses to use those lanes, and therefore no regulations prohibiting buses to overtake on 2 lane motorways.



Today I came across this leaflet about motorway driving issued only last month.
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Drunk%20With%20Tiredness/rsa006a_MotorwayBooklet_13_a_web.pdf

Do not use the outside lane if you are driving:
• a goods vehicle with a design gross weight of more than 3,500 kilogrammes
such as a lorry or heavy goods vehicle (HGV);
• a passenger vehicle with seating for more than eight passengers;
such as a bus; or
• a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

How can they keep on issuing publications, which are incorrect?

djimi

Can you provide something that proves them wrong? Thats two seperate websites that disagree with you that buses are allowed overtake on the right-most lane on a motorway (I dont actually know the answer to this, but I was always of the impression that buses are not supposed to be in the right-most lane of a motorway).

jayok

Hmm... my understanding that HGVs and Buses are not allowed in the rightmost lane, but only on Motorways that have more that 2 lanes.

For 2 lane carriageways, the outside lane is permitted.

RSA publication looks incorrect to me.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide something that proves them wrong?

As this concerns " prohibition" it would be easy to prove they are right (if they were), just by quoting a regulations which prohibit buses from using the most right lane.
Those regulations though don't exist, so it's kinda hard to quote anything proving they are wrong. But I'll try anyway.

Thats two seperate websites that disagree with you that buses are allowed overtake on the right-most lane on a motorway (I dont actually know the answer to this, but I was always of the impression that buses are not supposed to be in the right-most lane of a motorway).

Because that was the case few years ago (I think until April 2009).

The prohibition of using the most right hand lane apply to vehicles limited to 80km/h on motorways. Buses were limited to 80km/h but it was changed in 2009 to 100km/h. So this prohibition don't apply to them anymore since then.


Here is the prohibitory regulation:

33. (1) A driver on a motorway shall not—


( a ) drive a vehicle against the direction of traffic flow;


( b ) drive a vehicle on or across any part of the motorway which is not a carriageway;


( c ) stop or park a vehicle on any part of a motorway;


( d ) drive a vehicle of a class for which an ordinary speed limit of not more than 50 mph is prescribed by regulations under section 44 (1) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 in the traffic lane nearest the right hand edge of a carriageway having more than one traffic lane except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction or because another lane or lanes is or are for the time being closed to traffic.

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

(this was actually updated here in 2005 to exchange 50MPH to 80km/h).

(d) drive a vehicle of a class for which an ordinary speed limit of not more than 80 kilometres per hour is prescribed by regulations under section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 2004 ( No. 44 of 2004 ) in the traffic lane nearest the right hand edge of a carriageway having more than one traffic lane except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction or because another lane is for the time being closed to traffic.

Below are the most current regulations governing the ordinary speed limits for vehicles.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0546.html

3. (1) The ordinary speed limit prescribed for a single or double deck mechanically propelled vehicle constructed or adapted for use primarily for the carriage of passengers which has seating capacity for more than 8 persons and which is—


(a) neither designed nor adapted for the carriage of standing passengers, when driven on—


(i) a motorway or a dual carriageway, is 100 kilometres per hour, or


(ii) any other public road, is 80 kilometres per hour, or


(b) designed or adapted for the carriage of standing passengers when driven on any public road is 65 kilometres per hour.

So generally speaking, prohibition of using most-right lane on motorway applies to vehicles limited to 80km/h, while buses are limited to 100km/h so they are not prohibited to use most-right lane.

slimjimmc

I can see CiniO's point. The law states that any vehicle which is restricted to maximum legal speed of 80km/h is prohibited from entering the lane nearest the median except under a few specific circumstances. Buses fell into that category until 2008 when their motorway speed limit was upped to 100km/h. The logical conclusion from that is that since buses are no longer limited to 80km/h on motorways they are no longer prohibited.

I can't see anything that says otherwise, but you never know.

NB: the ban still applies to buses intended to accommodate standing passengers, e.g. city buses, so perhaps it's just lazy authoring by the RSA.

CiniO

jayok wrote: »

Hmm... my understanding that HGVs and Buses are not allowed in the rightmost lane, but only on Motorways that have more that 2 lanes.

For 2 lane carriageways, the outside lane is permitted.

That's wrong understanding.

It's not HGV and buses, but HGV and pretty much any other vehicles (including cars and vans) while towing trailers.

Also it applys no matter if motorway had 2 lanes or more, so menioned vehicles are not allowed to overtake on 2 lane motorways at all.

RSA publication looks incorrect to me.

They are incorrect indeed, but in other way you were thinking.

jayok

CiniO wrote: »

It's not HGV and buses, but HGV and pretty much any other vehicles (including cars and vans) while towing trailers.

Also it applys no matter if motorway had 2 lanes or more, so menioned vehicles are not allowed to overtake on 2 lane motorways at all.

Well that doesn't make any logical sense. If I'm driving a HGV on a 2 lane motorway and there's another truck doing 50km/hr (minimum motorway speed) in the driving lane, I'm not allowed to use the overtaking lane, even though I'm permitted to do 80km/hr? I must sit there behind the slower traffic with an empty overtaking lane.

Reading the Act, it seems to be the law, but if my reading is right, it's pretty silly.

Also, reality kicks in and the above scenario doesn't happen in practice.

jayok

Re-reading the Act again, could a slower moving traffic, etc be considered and obstacle?

i.e. "except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction"

If this is the case, then it's really just enforcing the "keep left" rule on a motorway for PSV with limit's of 80km/hr.

Davidth88

I would be surprised if this is correct , this would mean a bus could not overtake a slow moving lorry on a hill .

I have seen countless HGV's/ Lorries on the offside lane on a two lane motorway


Certainly in the UK ( where I learnt to drive and drove for 20 odd years ) HGVs etc are not allowed in the offside lane when there are 3 or more lanes .

monument

Davidth88 wrote: »

I would be surprised if this is correct , this would mean a bus could not overtake a slow moving lorry on a hill .

I have seen countless HGV's/ Lorries on the offside lane on a two lane motorway


Certainly in the UK ( where I learnt to drive and drove for 20 odd years ) HGVs etc are not allowed in the offside lane when there are 3 or more lanes .

I have seen countless motorists park on footpaths, break traffic lights, speed, etc, that does not make any of these things less or more against the law.

CiniO

jayok wrote: »

Well that doesn't make any logical sense. If I'm driving a HGV on a 2 lane motorway and there's another truck doing 50km/hr (minimum motorway speed) in the driving lane, I'm not allowed to use the overtaking lane, even though I'm permitted to do 80km/hr? I must sit there behind the slower traffic with an empty overtaking lane.

Reading the Act, it seems to be the law, but if my reading is right, it's pretty silly.

Also, reality kicks in and the above scenario doesn't happen in practice.

jayok wrote: »

Re-reading the Act again, could a slower moving traffic, etc be considered and obstacle?

i.e. "except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction"

If this is the case, then it's really just enforcing the "keep left" rule on a motorway for PSV with limit's of 80km/hr.

There isn't any "minimum speed of 50km/h" on Irish motorways set up as a law.
Yes, vehicles unable to do over 50km/h are not permitted on the motorway, but it is not required by law to actually do above 50km/h at all times.

However as you say, if I was driving a truck or vehicle with trailer on the motorway, and encountered someone doing much less (like 50km/h) I would treat it as an obstruction, and overtake. If they wanted to fine me, I would try to explain it was obstruction, even in court.
But I don't know if it's right.

CiniO

Davidth88 wrote: »

I would be surprised if this is correct , this would mean a bus could not overtake a slow moving lorry on a hill .

Why not?
I think you didn't really read the thread, as it's all about buses actually being permitted to overtake on motorways.
It's only trucks and vehicles with trailers which aren't allowed to.

I have seen countless HGV's/ Lorries on the offside lane on a two lane motorway

Me either, but it doesn't mean what they are doing is legally.

Certainly in the UK ( where I learnt to drive and drove for 20 odd years ) HGVs etc are not allowed in the offside lane when there are 3 or more lanes .

I don't know what the rules in UK are.

Marlow

jayok wrote: »

Well that doesn't make any logical sense. If I'm driving a HGV on a 2 lane motorway and there's another truck doing 50km/hr (minimum motorway speed) in the driving lane, I'm not allowed to use the overtaking lane, even though I'm permitted to do 80km/hr? I must sit there behind the slower traffic with an empty overtaking lane.

Reading the Act, it seems to be the law, but if my reading is right, it's pretty silly.

They took a UK law, chucked the exception of a 2 lane-motorway/dual-carraigeway, where you're allowed to overtake over there and implemented it.

I think they can even fine and give points if you're found in the lane nearest to the median.

/M

Marlow

Here's the penalty points list: http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/Types-of-offences/

Driving a HGV (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is a fine of 80 eur and 1 point. It's 3 points on conviction.

Failure to drive on the left hand side of the road (like hogging the center lane) is the same FOR ANYBODY.

/M

CiniO

Marlow wrote: »

Here's the penalty points list: http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/Types-of-offences/

Driving a HGV (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 80 kms per hour or less) on the outside lane on a motorway or dual carriageway is a fine of 80 eur and 1 point. It's 3 points on conviction.


/M

Heh, interesting why only driving HGV on the outside lane is subject to fine, while driving any other vehcile with trailer on outside lane is not listed there.

Jimdagym

Marlow wrote: »

Failure to drive on the left hand side of the road (like hogging the center lane) is the same FOR ANYBODY.

/M

It's a penalty point for driving in the overtaking lane (for cars)?
I didn't know that. Delighted though. If only it was enforced...

Marlow

Jimdagym wrote: »

It's a penalty point for driving in the overtaking lane (for cars)?
I didn't know that. Delighted though. If only it was enforced...

Not for driving there. But for hogging it, yes. As in not moving left, when left is free.

/M

Jimdagym

Marlow wrote: »

Not for driving there. But for hogging it, yes. As in not moving left, when left is free.

/M

Sorry, I phrased that badly. I meant driving as in continuing to drive. Hogging is much more apt.

djimi

Marlow wrote: »

Failure to drive on the left hand side of the road (like hogging the center lane) is the same FOR ANYBODY.

Id love to know how many people, if any, have ever gotten a fine/points for hogging the middle/outside lane. Very few Id imagine...

celticbest

A post I put in a thread a while ago, as far as I'm aware the ROTR have still not changed since,



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66530538&postcount=223

CiniO wrote: »

Heh, interesting why only driving HGV on the outside lane is subject to fine, while driving any other vehcile with trailer on outside lane is not listed there.

^ Trailers are mentioned in the ROTR

CiniO

celticbest wrote: »

A post I put in a thread a while ago, as far as I'm aware the ROTR have still not changed since,

That's actually very surprising answer from RSA, as from the regulations I quoted above, buses are not prohibited to use the outside lane.

Or maybe I just can't understand a written text.

celticbest

CiniO wrote: »

That's actually very surprising answer from RSA, as from the regulations I quoted above, buses are not prohibited to use the outside lane.

Or maybe I just can't understand a written text.

A Bus/Coach that has seating for more than 8 passengers is not allowed use Lane 2 of a 2 lane MW or Lane 3 of a 3 Lane MW.

Both the ROTR and RSA state this as fact.

You should contact the RSA if you think this has changed.

I have not seen any change come through since my original post above.

CiniO

celticbest wrote: »

A Bus/Coach that has seating for more than 8 passengers is not allowed use Lane 2 of a 2 lane MW or Lane 3 of a 3 Lane MW.

Both the ROTR and RSA state this as fact.

You should contact the RSA if you think this has changed.

I have not seen any change come through since my original post above.

I think it has changed at the same moment, when speed limit on motorways for buses changed from 80km/h to 100km/h which was in 2009.

Regulations prohibiting vehicles from using right-hand lane on motorways, apply to vehicles with ordinary speed limit of not more than 80km/h.

So from the moment ordinary speed limit for buses on motorways changed to 100km/h, prohibition to use right-hand lane doesn't apply to them anymore.

No more changes required here really.

I'll definitely contact RSA about it, as according to them it looks like that I'm breaking the law quite often by using the right-hand land on the motorway while driving a bus·

celticbest

CiniO wrote: »

I think it has changed at the same moment, when speed limit on motorways for buses changed from 80km/h to 100km/h which was in 2009.

Regulations prohibiting vehicles from using right-hand lane on motorways, apply to vehicles with ordinary speed limit of not more than 80km/h.

So from the moment ordinary speed limit for buses on motorways changed to 100km/h, prohibition to use right-hand lane doesn't apply to them anymore.

No more changes required here really.

I'll definitely contact RSA about it, as according to them it looks like that I'm breaking the law quite often by using the right-hand land on the motorway while driving a bus·

Mail above from the RSA was received June of 2010 well after the 100km/h limit was brought in.

If you read my mail you will see this is the exact question I put to them.

CiniO

celticbest wrote: »

Mail above from the RSA was received June of 2010 well after the 100km/h limit was brought in.

If you read my mail you will see this is the exact question I put to them.

Oh yes I can see that clearly.
However I still think they are wrong, as Road traffic regulations state something exactly opposite to what they are saying.

celticbest

CiniO wrote: »

Oh yes I can see that clearly.
However I still think they are wrong, as Road traffic regulations state something exactly opposite to what they are saying.

What are Road Traffic Regulations??

As far as I'm aware the Rules of the Road (ROTR) are what have top be adhered to and these apply to all road users no matter what vehicle they are using & the ROTR cleary state that any vehicle which has seating for more than 8 passengers is not allowed use Lane 2 of a 2 lane MW or Lane 3 of a 3 Lane MW. I don't think it gets much clear then that...

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

^ Latest online edition for Motorway driving.

CiniO

celticbest wrote: »

What are Road Traffic Regulations??

As far as I'm aware the Rules of the Road (ROTR) are what have top be adhered to and these apply to all road users no matter what vehicle they are using & the ROTR cleary state that any vehicle which has seating for more than 8 passengers is not allowed use Lane 2 of a 2 lane MW or Lane 3 of a 3 Lane MW. I don't think it gets much clear then that...

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

^ Latest online edition for Motorway driving.

Rules of the Road is just interpretation of law. It's just a book.
Driver on the road must adhere to the Law.
If Law is different to what's written in Rules of the Road, then drivers must adhere to Law - no to the book.

I know ROTR is a book issued by official goverment organisation (RSA), but if they are wrong, it doesn't mean people must adhere to it.

If you go to court, no one is going to look at ROTR, but into the Law, as this is what drivers must comply with.


I quoted relevant parts of Law earlier in this thread, together with a links to proper SI's.
If you are interested, take a look at this and tell me what do you think...

celticbest

CiniO wrote: »

Rules of the Road is just interpretation of law. It's just a book.
Driver on the road must adhere to the Law.
If Law is different to what's written in Rules of the Road, then drivers must adhere to Law - no to the book.

I know ROTR is a book issued by official goverment organisation (RSA), but if they are wrong, it doesn't mean people must adhere to it.

If you go to court, no one is going to look at ROTR, but into the Law, as this is what drivers must comply with.


I quoted relevant parts of Law earlier in this thread, together with a links to proper SI's.
If you are interested, take a look at this and tell me what do you think...

The likelyhood of you getting pulled by Guards is very slim but I'd rather you than me if it went to court, it could work out in your favour or it could cost you big time.

Let me know how you get on with the mail you send to the RSA, I'm wondering if they will have any update since my previous mail.

CiniO

celticbest wrote: »

The likelyhood of you getting pulled by Guards is very slim but I'd rather you than me if it went to court, it could work out in your favour or it could cost you big time.

Let me know how you get on with the mail you send to the RSA, I'm wondering if they will have any update since my previous mail.

Regulations didn't change since your last mail with them.
They additionally issued another publication last month (which I linked in first post) which states the same what's written in RORT (buses not allowed to use right-hand lane).
Therefore I doubt they would responded to my email with - thanks for letting us know we were wrong. Instead they will probably keep on insisting they are right, as otherwise it would prove they are publishing unchecked informations, and it would put a blame on them.

However we will see what they'll say.
In my opinion, Law about it is pretty clear, and there is only one correct possibility of interpreting it, which is actually against what RSA are saying.

celticbest

CiniO wrote: »

In my opinion, Law about it is pretty clear, and there is only one correct possibility of interpreting it, which is actually against what RSA are saying.

As I said, rather you than me in Court

CiniO

celticbest wrote: »

^ As I said, rather you than me in Court

If I'll ever got fined for using the right-hand lane on the motorway while driving a bus, I'll be more than happy to go to court to fight for my rights

monument

celticbest wrote: »

Both the ROTR and RSA state this as fact.

One in the same, no both required here. Rules of the road are just the RSA's view of the law.

celticbest

CiniO wrote: »

However we will see what they'll say.
In my opinion, Law about it is pretty clear, and there is only one correct possibility of interpreting it, which is actually against what RSA are saying.

CiniO did anyone ever get back to you to clarify?