How to get rid of Fine Gael

pugleon

The title might be misleading. I dont want to "off" them in some Gangster style way. What I would like to see is rid of them from power, AND Labour while we are at it.

My point is this. FG are turning on most if not all campaign promises, Labour are doing nothing to stop them. And if this is let run its course until their term is up we are ALL in for a horrendous decade of aftermath. Maybe more...

You all know whats happening. The taxes, no fighting IMF/EMF, the bad laws, the poor decisions, the selling of capital assets and companies, the joke that is NAMA, the complete lack of health care, the welfare issue, just the overall disaster of a Government that is in place.

So my question is this. How do we get them out of there... and now before the damage is irreversible

DrumSteve

And replace them with who exactly?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

a government made entirely of occupy protestors

just for the hell of it

TEMPLAR KNIGHT

Revolution?

DrumSteve

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

a government made entirely of occupy protestors

just for the hell of it

Now that... that'd be interesting.

Ellis Dee

Just give them enough rope and let some of their more "colourful" members like Ms. Cretin keep talking and they'll self-destruct.:):):)

[MOD]"Clever" nicknames for politicians aren't.[/MOD]

That is your subjective opinion, to which you are, of course, entitled. Others may find them amusing - or not. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sincerely

Ellis Dee:cool:

BOHtox

pugleon wrote: »

The title might be misleading. I dont want to "off" them in some Gangster style way. What I would like to see is rid of them from power, AND Labour while we are at it.

My point is this. FG are turning on most if not all campaign promises, Labour are doing nothing to stop them. And if this is let run its course until their term is up we are ALL in for a horrendous decade of aftermath. Maybe more...

You all know whats happening. The taxes, no fighting IMF/EMF, the bad laws, the poor decisions, the selling of capital assets and companies, the joke that is NAMA, the complete lack of health care, the welfare issue, just the overall disaster of a Government that is in place.

So my question is this. How do we get them out of there... and now before the damage is irreversible

Exactly what did you expect after a year?
There's a reason that election are every 5 years and it's because major work can not be done in one year. FG's health proposal was a 10 year plan which has already been started. The taxes were in the EU-IMF bailout deal, we need to sell assets to pay off our mountain of debt and to invest in the economy.

What promises have exactly been broken or are you just sprouting general rhetoric you hear from the looney lefties?

Hayte

pugleon wrote: »

My point is this. FG are turning on most if not all campaign promises, Labour are doing nothing to stop them. And if this is let run its course until their term is up we are ALL in for a horrendous decade of aftermath. Maybe more...

And put who in their place? I hate to break it to you but campaign promises don't mean jack because shop talk is cheap.

Another not so great surprise is that Fine Gael inherited a terrible economy with all of the social and economic consequences associated with the collapse of a major property bubble. You can say what you want about the party and any disparaging remarks are just as likely to be true as they are false, but nobody can make wine out of water.

We can talk about how not to perpetuate the conditions that give rise to these problems, irrespective of who is in government and that is something I believe has real value. But what doesn't have any real value is talking about who to get rid of and who to put in their place when the same beholden interests inform the same old politics that get rammed down the throat of the same old disillusioned electorate. Part of the problem is actually believing that outrageously improbably campaign promises mean anything.

Ghost_of_ED209

Lets face it... Communism is the way to go...

BOHtox

Ghost_of_ED209 wrote: »

Lets face it... Communism is the way to go...

Let's face it. No!

Do people want to go back to the 80's where we had elections every year and absolutely nothing got done.

Ghost_of_ED209

You say no but secretly we all know you mean yes...

Foghladh

BOHtox wrote: »

Exactly what did you expect after a year?
There's a reason that election are every 5 years and it's because major work can not be done in one year. FG's health proposal was a 10 year plan which has already been started. The taxes were in the EU-IMF bailout deal, we need to sell assets to pay off our mountain of debt and to invest in the economy.

What promises have exactly been broken or are you just sprouting general rhetoric you hear from the looney lefties?

I haven't heard the ould 5 Point Plan get mentioned very much these days now that you bring it to mind.

20,000 jobs per year wasn't it?

du Maurier

Foghladh wrote: »

I haven't heard the ould 5 Point Plan get mentioned very much these days now that you bring it to mind.

20,000 jobs per year wasn't it?

They could have said 20,000 jobs per person and it still would have been greeted with indifference. As a poster said shop talk is cheap.

Foghladh

du Maurier wrote: »

They could have said 20,000 jobs per person and it still would have been greeted with indifference. As a poster said shop talk is cheap.

Ah well, that's alright then. It seems that the 5 Point Plan served it's purpose and we'll hear no more about it. I notice it seems to have dropped off their website lately anyway.

pugleon

Replace them with who: Anyone
Loony lefty: No actually more of a righty but just completely let down by FG. Taxes that cripple only the poor and disadvantaged. Just a very quick example of which would be my cousin with Autism who now has no school to go to as a result. My involuntarily *due to recession* retired parents who cant get a medical card after 35-40 years of paying taxes. The people I know lucky enough to be working cant manage anymore with more stealth taxes, vat increases. Do I need to go on?

Forget I mentioned campaign promises for a second. The hardship they are imposing on the poor to middle class is phenomenal. And I dont buy for a second your argument of "oh well its the budget they inherited". You probably work for FG coming out with that muck. They arent doing a whole pile of inventive thinking and I dont believe for a second anything from the health service to taxes to the debt will be any better in five years time. In fact for the first time in my memory im actually SCARED of what damage could be done if they keep up.

Sully

When you compare this years election to previous government elections - there wasn't a huge bed of lies and myths to get them elected. This is always what we had with Fianna Fail. A lot of the TDs canvassed with the "Its not going to be easy, there will be a lot of hard and tough decisions you wont like" attitude. Enda Kenny said that on numerous occasions also.

Labour were going around scaremongering and misleading people mostly - this is widely recognised by political commentators. Fianna Fail people seemed to feel they had done enough damage and promised enough that turned out to be bull. The looney left - not as working class as they make out and they offered no alternative solution to our economic crisis we face.

Its a year now and they haven't done so bad. Could be worse, could be better. A lot of things I agree are not nice, misleading and unfair. A lot of facepalm moments. But a lot of good and things that are looking up for us. For the first time in years government departments are trying to get a handle on the crisis, steer us towards economic growth and recovery while still carrying out as much of their department function as possible.

Statistician

Well we've already pretty much got rid of the FF wing of FG. It won't be too much longer when the whole of FF/FG has been eradicated.

As was previously mentioned, people need an alternative to FF/FG - or a completely alternative system of government (eg, government by machine) Until this happens FF/FG will linger on.


Half gone, more to do.

Ellis Dee

I think a point that most contributors have overlooked so far is that, as Machiavelli famously pointed out, in a democracy the people get the leaders they deserve. Not everyone deserved Fianna Fail, of course, and not everyone deserves the Blueshirts, either, but the reality is that Ireland is still an awesomely petty and conservative society, where greed triumphs over social solidarity far too often. When, for a brief period of less than two decades, the earlier relative poverty was temporarily replaced by the relative prosperity of the so-called Celtic Tiger, it was sickening to behold the hubris that descended over far too many Irish people, the gauche, noveau riche way they squandered that wealth, and the erosion of many of the virtues that had earlier been strong in Ireland. There was an opportunity then to restructure our constitution and build a system of government suiting a modern, progressive country, but all we got was alternating periods of the Effen Effers and the Blueshirts helping their respective sets of fat cat cronies to sink their snouts deeper into the trough.:rolleyes:

Now what is left? A country in dire financial straits and with an increasingly ugly atmosphere of xenophobia and racism about the place. A new start has to be made to try and build a society founded on social solidarity, fairness and a more equitable sharing of wealth and opportunities. Neither Fianna Fail nor Fine Gael show much sign of delivering that. And I don't hold out much hope that the relatively progressive elements within Labour will be able to prevail over the others and do so, either.:cool:

john reilly

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Just give them enough rope and let some of their more "colourful" members like Ms. Cretin keep talking and they'll self-destruct.:):):)

[MOD]"Clever" nicknames for politicians aren't.[/MOD]

That is your subjective opinion, to which you are, of course, entitled. Others may find them amusing - or not. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sincerely

Ellis Dee:cool:

BOHtox wrote: »

Exactly what did you expect after a year?
There's a reason that election are every 5 years and it's because major work can not be done in one year. FG's health proposal was a 10 year plan which has already been started. The taxes were in the EU-IMF bailout deal, we need to sell assets to pay off our mountain of debt and to invest in the economy.

What promises have exactly been broken or are you just sprouting general rhetoric you hear from the looney lefties?

a humourous nickname for one person is not acceptable, but its quite acceptabe to insult an entire group of people

Sully

john reilly wrote: »

a humourous nickname for one person is not acceptable, but its quite acceptabe to insult an entire group of people

Yes, because they are loony with their suggestions and we haven't singled out any individual either. :P

Nijmegen

The trouble we have is that we face a slim choice:

• Fine Gael - Undoubted they told lies during the election and are, on balance, in the same league as Fianna Fail where votewinning is concerned
• Labour - Again, plenty of broken promises
• Fianna Fail - Bankrupted the country. Haughey to Bertie. Etc. (The debate is well rehearsed)
• Sinn Fein - The emergent wildcard who may unsettle the traditional FF-FG-Lab dominence of Irish politics. Plenty of sour taste over their links to the PIRA. Their economics are not mainstream.

After that we have the slim pickings of garnish on the side, be it the Marxist left or perhaps the Greens or the old space held by the Progressive Democrats and then a smattering of hyper-localistic independents and a few big brains.

3/4 main parties are proven let downs, cheats and liars. Party #4 a majority of people would have serious reservations about before even considering their policies.

There is no alternative government as yet.

The Waltzing Consumer

Nijmegen wrote: »

The trouble we have is that we face a slim choice:

• Fine Gael - Undoubted they told lies during the election and are, on balance, in the same league as Fianna Fail where votewinning is concerned
• Labour - Again, plenty of broken promises
• Fianna Fail - Bankrupted the country. Haughey to Bertie. Etc. (The debate is well rehearsed)
• Sinn Fein - The emergent wildcard who may unsettle the traditional FF-FG-Lab dominence of Irish politics. Plenty of sour taste over their links to the PIRA. Their economics are not mainstream.

The problem with this is fairly obvious. Everything said in an election campaign is based on single party government, so every party went to the people and said "we will do x, y and z" if elected.

The people said no, they did not give a mandate for any single party government, in other words, compromise. So whilst it is annoying to see pledges and aims not kept by a party, that's what the people essentially told them to do. No party had an election campaign based on entering a coalition. So I am a bit fed up with people moaning about broken promises cause you are pretty much just saying you don't respect the mandate the people gave the government.

I would agree with your FF section. As for your SF "wildcard", I think this is the party who have shown who the new FF are, links to developers who have ruined peoples lives, extremely dirty politics, on average their TD claims the most expenses across the board and let us not forget the whole Callely-esque Ink expenses last week. Their economics are extemely mainstream too, I ain't sure where that has come from? They are just a populist party who will oppose anything to get more votes.

BOHtox

Foghladh wrote: »

I haven't heard the ould 5 Point Plan get mentioned very much these days now that you bring it to mind.

20,000 jobs per year wasn't it?

Yes. 20,000 a year. Did you not hear the jobs plan a few weeks ago? Great to see this initiative happening. Sometimes I think people would rather see the economy do poorly just to say "I told you so"

Foghladh wrote: »

Ah well, that's alright then. It seems that the 5 Point Plan served it's purpose and we'll hear no more about it. I notice it seems to have dropped off their website lately anyway.

Just here
http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/5%20Point%20Plan%20A4%20Brochure%20WEB.pdf

hmmm

More moaning about "not standing up to xyz" and "cuts hitting the disadvantaged most".

1. Do you think diplomacy and politics is a big shouting game in public? The new government strike me as doing a very good job in background negotiations, they've already got a cut in our bailout interest rate and the omens look good for a deal on banking related debt.
2. We have a massive gap between government revenue and spending. Everyone will have to suffer ultimately. Working people reach 56% marginal rates of tax very quickly. People who have worked hard all their lives and now earn a good salary do not deserve to have their efforts punished. People who are unemployed or paid by the state will have to make do with less. Get over it.

Agent Smith

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

a government made entirely of occupy protestors

just for the hell of it

#occupylenisterhouse


:pac:

Sully wrote:

Labour were going around scaremongering and misleading people mostly - this is widely recognised by political commentators.

I firmly believe labour's main objection in election 2011 was to make sure FG didnt get an Overal Majority. They pushed the "Gilmore for Taoiseach" untill they relised that:
1. It wasnt very realistic
2. it was turning some normally FF voters off Switching to Labour, and instead to FG/SF/ULA

Then come the second week of the campaign. it was quietly dropped

Foghladh

BOHtox wrote: »

Yes. 20,000 a year. Did you not hear the jobs plan a few weeks ago? Great to see this initiative happening. Sometimes I think people would rather see the economy do poorly just to say "I told you so"



Just here
http://www.finegael2011.com/pdf/5%20Point%20Plan%20A4%20Brochure%20WEB.pdf

Yes that's right. I'd love to see the economy go up the crapper in order to stick it to Enda. Believe you me, if on this date 2013 we have created 20,000 new jobs in the economy I'll happily come back here and extol the virtues of the FG government

Thanks for the link. I was looking in www.finegael.ie

john reilly

yes this goverment is changing redundancy laws and making employers pay sick pay. this is one way of guarateeing that any potential employer wont take the chance on starting somebody. well done f,g and lab not forgeting the changes to minimum pay

BOHtox

Foghladh wrote: »

I haven't heard the ould 5 Point Plan get mentioned very much these days now that you bring it to mind.

20,000 jobs per year wasn't it?

Foghladh wrote: »

Ah well, that's alright then. It seems that the 5 Point Plan served it's purpose and we'll hear no more about it. I notice it seems to have dropped off their website lately anyway.

Foghladh wrote: »

Yes that's right. I'd love to see the economy go up the crapper in order to stick it to Enda. Believe you me, if on this date 2013 we have created 20,000 new jobs in the economy I'll happily come back here and extol the virtues of the FG government

Thanks for the link. I was looking in www.finegael.ie

It's not weighted 20,000 every year. For example, 120,000 jobs were created last year although we did lose a similar amount.

The 5 point plan was an election promise therefore they put it on their election website.

charlemont

Besides the property tax and Sherlocks internet laws, The government haven't been that bad and are doing the best they can.

The problem is their best isn't good enough, But its a hell of a lot better than the last crowd.

BOHtox

charlemont wrote: »

Besides the property tax and Sherlocks internet laws, The government haven't been that bad and are doing the best they can.

The problem is their best isn't good enough, But its a hell of a lot better than the last crowd.

I agree, as an FGer, that Sherlock's law is ridiculous, although he is a Labour Party member, and that the cut to the disabled, which has since been reversed, have been dodgy. Although that was Joan Burton's call.

The property tax was also in the EU-IMF deal so we couldn't really help that.

Agent Smith

Agent Smith wrote: »

#occupylenisterhouse


:pac:



I firmly believe labour's main objection in election 2011 was to make sure FG didnt get an Overal Majority. They pushed the "Gilmore for Taoiseach" untill they relised that:
1. It wasnt very realistic
2. it was turning some normally FF voters off Switching to Labour, and instead to FG/SF/ULA

Then come the second week of the campaign. it was quietly dropped

charlemont

BOHtox wrote: »

I agree, as an FGer, that Sherlock's law is ridiculous, although he is a Labour Party member, and that the cut to the disabled, which has since been reversed, have been dodgy. Although that was Joan Burton's call.

The property tax was also in the EU-IMF deal so we couldn't really help that.

They should have basically told the EU IMF that the Irish people are doing enough for ye so ye can stick the Property Tax. I do think Enda Kenny is a fairly genuine guy, Bertie was too much like a rock star celebrity People fell for his charisma and now look at the mess, At least Kenny is "you see what you get".

Don't like Phil Hogan though...

raymon

So Pugleon....... what is your alternative , back to the dishonest incompetence of Fianna Fail ??? An independent led coalition, with Ming and Boyd Barrett? A Sinn Fein led coalition of Marxist Leninists ?

Or a mixture of these ?

Or something different ?

Let is know your solution.

blahfckingblah

raymon... are sinn fein marxist leninist now?

pugleon

Well the main purpose of the thread was to spark up a bit of debate get an idea of the everyone elses feeling about FG but its a fair question. Who would I vote for as an alternative.

Nijmegen (hope i spelled that right) says it all. Slim pickings alternatives wise. I would love for some kings of industry to step up and offer an alternative. Commercial titons running government, Im not saying Ryanair O'Leary wouldnt tax the crap out of us but we would get what we pay for and sort our debt out pretty lively. Or better yet a Danish or Sweedish party come over and implement their systems (properly).

But we live in reality. Who would I see instead? In an ideal world a rainbow of Independants Labour and maaaaaaaaybe Sinn SF. Only other viable alternative with a snowballs chance in hell of pulling the votes. But in reality who would go into power with SF. Nobody short of it being the only route to power I would imagine.

Really dont agree with saying oh well besides a few stupid taxes and laws they arent so bad. I have many friends and family completely crushed by the changes they have made in the last year. And its only getting worse. The push to penny pinch has led to all kinds of services ending this year. Steath taxes cropping up. And the ones most effected are Old, Unemployed/Poor, Young and Handicapped. I get the whole "well if we tax the rich they will find a way to avoid it so stealth tax" arguement. But what about upper and middle classes. Im quite happy to pay an extra percent or two on my 40 and 20 odd percent if it stops this punishment of the the weakest and most vunerable. And at least then id have a clear idea where my paycheque gets me one month to the next.

Also dont appreciate the attitude "your out of work, so tough". Not most peoples choice anymore its not not like the tiger days when there was a job for everyone, there isnt. Not with the current economy. Snap out of it pal. A lack of empathy for your fellow man will as the lil green fella might say lead to the dark side.

K-9

The problem with SF or other "lefter" parties is that their ideas sound great, very simple, make sense and should work, real politics doesn't work like that, as a very hard left Labour party found out in the 80's.

Take the ban on Public Servants earning over 100k. Fantastic, I like it. Problem is you'd have a head of the Department of Education on 100k and a teacher on 50k, the head of Justice or the Garda Commissioner on 100k, a Guard on the beat earning 40/50k .

Unless the ordinary Guard or teacher is going to take a pay cut, top level positions don't look attractive financially. Personally I think public service jobs shouldn't be benchmarked against private service jobs as there has to be a certain public service element, but a head of a Department earning double an ordinary worker in the same Department?

With tax levels on high earning public servants, Net Pay wouldn't be near double.

The other side is tax. Talk of wealth taxes at all is perfectly fine. Unless Welfare and PS pay is tackled, and not just the top couple of thousand in the PS, a wealth tax isn't going to finance them.

So more tax rises on the middle classes and more property and water rates.

happyman81

charlemont wrote: »

Best post ever !!

No, it was rambling and incoherent.

charlemont

happyman81 wrote: »

No, it was rambling and incoherent.

We wont argue about it... But that post raised a few home truths.

Einhard

Why would we want to replace them? I think they're doing a pretty good job. I don;t expect perfection from a government but competence is a basic requisite, and I don't see how this government are failing in that regard.

Funny that people complain about broken promises and at the same time are outraged when the govenment parties keep their election pledges, eg property tax.

Einhard

charlemont wrote: »

They should have basically told the EU IMF that the Irish people are doing enough for ye so ye can stick the Property Tax.

And the EU response would no doubt have been, "but of course, why didn't you ask before? Anything else we can do for ye while we're at it?"

Seriously, do people not think that every Irish politician would run ten miles from the commitments entered into under Fianna Fail, but that, strangely enough, it's somewhat easier to say how things should be than to actually achieve them.

charlemont

Einhard wrote: »

And the EU response would no doubt have been, "but of course, why didn't you ask before? Anything else we can do for ye while we're at it?"

Seriously, do people not think that every Irish politician would run ten miles from the commitments entered into under Fianna Fail, but that, strangely enough, it's somewhat easier to say how things should be than to actually achieve them.

There are some things that test the patience of a people and that tax is one, Why pay for refuse collection if we have to pay property tax, Water tax !! Why introduce it if we have to pay property tax. Its easy to tax us like mainland Europe but as usual we won't get the same service or quality as mainland Europe.

K-9

Einhard wrote: »

Why would we want to replace them? I think they're doing a pretty good job. I don;t expect perfection from a government but competence is a basic requisite, and I don't see how this government are failing in that regard.

Funny that people complain about broken promises and at the same time are outraged when the govenment parties keep their election pledges, eg property tax.

Well report cards on Ministers after a year have been scrapped, doesn't particularly annoy me as I knew that and similar stuff was very American PR stuff. I can see why younger voters, new to this, would feel disillusioned.

Basically ignore report cards and other such obvious PR stuff from any party, regardless of their "wing".

deise go deo

@the OP


Do you believe that this country can survive without the poor/unemployed/old/young/vulnerable etc being effected?

If you do, please tell me how, because personally no matter how nice that would be, I don't believe that is the reality of the situation this country is in, and I do not think it will be regardless of who is in power.

Einhard

charlemont wrote: »

There are some things that test the patience of a people and that tax is one, Why pay for refuse collection if we have to pay property tax, Water tax !! Why introduce it if we have to pay property tax. Its easy to tax us like mainland Europe but as usual we won't get the same service or quality as mainland Europe.

I don't see how anyone can be annoyed about a proposal that formed an explicit part of FG's general election manifesto. People voted for FG knowing about this property tax. It wasn't hidden; it wasn't a secret. People voted for it. What you're doing essentially is complaining about broken promises while at the same time complaining abut kept promises. You can't have it both ways.

K-9 wrote: »

Well report cards on Ministers after a year have been scrapped, doesn't particularly annoy me as I knew that and similar stuff was very American PR stuff.

Meh. Silly season stuff. I can imagine how though, Kenny might have seen it is a good idea before it was fully thought out.

I can see why younger voters, new to this, would feel disillusioned.

If they're so sensitive as to be disillusioned on this most trivial of issues, then they're in for a rough ride in life!

guitarzero

I'll run.

My policies: To get this country back on its feet, to listen to our communities, to make sure the old and sick get access to better health, to make sure we get a better deal from Europe, to do away with these extra tax charges, to invest in local businesses, blah blah, blah blah blah blah, blah blah, blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah.....

Sad thing is, 75 percent of folks probably read with credulence as far as 'business'.

Vote me, Generic Righty, more of the same ol' bullsh*t...Ugh...

Ellis Dee

Sully wrote: »

Yes, because they are loony with their suggestions and we haven't singled out any individual either. :P

Rather an odd attitude, tbh. You believe you are free to label an entire group and impute negative features to them rather than ridicule persons for their individual failings. In a different context, is that not one of the defining hallmarks of racism as well; in other words, you choose to brand them simply because they have a particular ethnic background? I suppose you are still too young to remember that one way of dealing with unpopular views in the old Soviet Union was to brand them "looney" or "insane" and subject them to involuntary treatment. What seems looney to one person may make eminent good sense to another.

There is a long tradition of satire revolving around names of people when those names resemble another word that is relevant to their actions, statements or policies. One example that comes to mind is the Saudi oil minister Sheikh Yamani in the days when the oil price first soared. He became "Ya Money or Ya Life". Similarly, if an Irish politician is constantly rocking the boat, even undermining the party as a whole and adopting positions that quite many citizens quite frankly find sickening, it is only understandable that people poke fun at that person's expense. And surely you would agree that it is probably more advisable to laugh than to cry at many aspects of this country's political and economic life.

In fact, that particular name occurred to me when a producer friend at Yleisradio current affairs called me and asked me for help with pronouncing the name of the politician in question. They were doing a bit about the cuts being taken by "bankrupt Ireland", the decision to close the Vatican embassy and the, from a Finnish perspective, utterly unbelievable spectacle of an ultra-religious group demanding the re-opening of the embassy and receiving the vocal support of several politicians, especially one with a name that rhymed with "vaajaälynen", as I explained to them, at the same time as we in Finland were being expected to help bail the country out. And especially since we have heard so much about child sex abuse and Taoiseach Kenny's determined - if late - standing up to the corrupt Church of Rome.

Thus, as long as Fine Gael still allows itself to be influenced by within from persons with ultra-conservative views and, possibly, divided loyalties, I see little prospect indeed of it turning Ireland round, however agreeable a person Enda Kenny may be and irrespective of how well he handles himself at European summits.:eek:

lugha

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Thus, as long as Fine Gael still allows itself to be influenced by within from persons with ultra-conservative views and, possibly, divided loyalties, I see little prospect indeed of it turning Ireland round, however agreeable a person Enda Kenny may be and irrespective of how well he handles himself at European summits.:eek:

Well that raises something of a dilemma. Should a government party be responsive to lobbying from the electorate or not? There are (were!) for example, concerted efforts from this parish and elsewhere to persuade Sean Sherlock to change direction on a particular policy.

If it's acceptable for some to lobby for something they consider important, why not others? No doubt you could make a case why some lobbying causes are more worthy that others, but that is beside the point.

K-9

Einhard wrote: »

I don't see how anyone can be annoyed about a proposal that formed an explicit part of FG's general election manifesto. People voted for FG knowing about this property tax. It wasn't hidden; it wasn't a secret. People voted for it. What you're doing essentially is complaining about broken promises while at the same time complaining abut kept promises. You can't have it both ways.

My recollection from the debates was that property taxes would be a matter for councils, it wasn't explicitly stated, hence FF taking them up on it.

Foghladh

Einhard wrote: »

I don't see how anyone can be annoyed about a proposal that formed an explicit part of FG's general election manifesto. People voted for FG knowing about this property tax. It wasn't hidden; it wasn't a secret. People voted for it. What you're doing essentially is complaining about broken promises while at the same time complaining abut kept promises. You can't have it both ways.



Meh. Silly season stuff. I can imagine how though, Kenny might have seen it is a good idea before it was fully thought out.



If they're so sensitive as to be disillusioned on this most trivial of issues, then they're in for a rough ride in life!

Is it not a little incongruous then to be surprised at people expressing annoyance at something contained in a manifesto whilst at the same time deeming other manifested items as 'silly season stuff'?

It's hardly a great new departure in Irish politics if the 'buyer beware' mantra has to be invoked. All it does is put the onus on the voter to pick out the bull from the small print whilst absolving the candidate from the responsibility of producing an accurate picture of his intentions.

professore

BOHtox wrote: »

It's not weighted 20,000 every year. For example, 120,000 jobs were created last year although we did lose a similar amount.

The 5 point plan was an election promise therefore they put it on their election website.

Governments don't create jobs - companies do. All governments have to do is get out of the way.

pugleon

deise go deo wrote: »

@the OP


Do you believe that this country can survive without the poor/unemployed/old/young/vulnerable etc being effected?

If you do, please tell me how, because personally no matter how nice that would be, I don't believe that is the reality of the situation this country is in, and I do not think it will be regardless of who is in power.

Without massive damage on those people yes I do....

With a mixture of cuts in the massively overpaid Civil Service which HAS to happen at some point and the Government is really just affraid of/putting the long finger on this issue. In addition a percent or two on the 20 odd percent. And perhaps three to four percent on the 40 percent. There is a couple of billion you can pump back into special schools, homes, welfare subsidising for the most vunerable. I would be happy to pay it on my 20 odd and 40 odd provided it was all open in terms of where the money was going and it was going back into projects like that. Problem is no one trusts any of the partys to not screw it up or misappropriate.

Then if the Government and Civil Service get there finger out and make wiser spending and planning decisions.... Look at the array of failed and abandoned projects that was listed in the times recently. Literally billions wasted on failed projects that never happened.

I've no doubt theres billions each year that we might as well be throwing in the fire all for a lack of management