Why not to buy into Christian religion

MungoMan

This forum is frequented by a lot of people who are very well able to articulate the logical flaws in the christian religion, and why their fundamental message about an all powerful judgemental God, and his son etc do not quite match up to reality.

For sure the christian religion is full of good advice and virtue about how to live your life, i.e. don't kill someone (not that you would anyway), and don't shag your neighbours wife, and don't steal, and treat other people as you'd like to be treated yourself. A lot of good stuff.

But the logical flaws in the christian religion ?
I've haven't studied it much (I havent time), but I'm expecting a few things like the following

1. The bible says the world is flat
2. The bible says the world began 4000 years ago (during the agricultural revolution)
3. The only reason christianity caught on is because emperor constantine poured a lot of cash into it (to unify the Roman empire)
4. Nobody knows who wrote the bible (maybe they do, but this is the kind of thing Im looking for, if its true.
5. The bible's story doesnt co-relate well with the big bang theory.

Lets hear some other reasons why a normal clear thinking unbiased person might not buy into the christian religion

Turtwig

It's a work of violent misogynistic, homophobic, racist, and genocidal, fiction.

cassElliot

there's a theory in psychology formulated by leon festinger. its called cognitive dissonance, it occurs when an individual holds two conflicting thoughts, emotions or cognitions. say for instance - you're on a diet, but someone offers you a lovely piece of cake. thats going to caused discomfort and a disruption to homoeostases. the person must work to overcome the discomfort. thats a very simplistic argument...

however, the greatest example of cognitive dissonance is people's fear of their own mortality, what happens after death and the fear that when life is gone, its gone for good. a way of alleviating this fear was to concoct the notion that we are 'higher' beings, created by a divine power and are going somewhere after death.

these kinds of fears are a by-product of a bigger and evolutionary more complex brain. religion is a product of the human brain so people can sleep at night and not worry themselves sick about what happens when its all over.
its evolved over thousands of years and it is what it is today.

richard dawkins calls it a disease of the mind, a bit dramatic but i suppose he's true. maybe its more of a trick of the mind, but thats all i think it is.

joseph brand

All religions think they alone are correct, and all others are praising the wrong made-up gods. They speak of other 'false' religions in a haughty tone.

christians 'know' muslims are wasting their time.
muslims 'know' christians are wasting their time.
They cancel each other out.

Of course nobody should buy into the christian religions, but one should avoid all others too.

BTW, basic Law tells us not to commit crimes and social interaction teaches us not to harm others. It's also in our own self interest (personally and as a species) We don't need religion. It's disrespectful to assume we wouldn't know otherwise.

joseph brand

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Ah but we wouldn't have these laws without good old christian morals.

:rolleyes:

Indeed. How else would anyone know that killing one's parents or siblings would be a bad thing? Thank christ for the bible.

beerbuddy

MungoMan wrote: »

This forum is frequented by a lot of people who are very well able to articulate the logical flaws in the christian religion, and why their fundamental message about an all powerful judgemental God, and his son etc do not quite match up to reality.

For sure the christian religion is full of good advice and virtue about how to live your life, i.e. don't kill someone (not that you would anyway), and don't shag your neighbours wife, and don't steal, and treat other people as you'd like to be treated yourself. A lot of good stuff.

But the logical flaws in the christian religion ?
I've haven't studied it much (I havent time), but I'm expecting a few things like the following

1. The bible says the world is flat
2. The bible says the world began 4000 years ago (during the agricultural revolution)
3. The only reason christianity caught on is because emperor constantine poured a lot of cash into it (to unify the Roman empire)
4. Nobody knows who wrote the bible (maybe they do, but this is the kind of thing Im looking for, if its true.
5. The bible's story doesnt co-relate well with the big bang theory.

Lets hear some other reasons why a normal clear thinking unbiased person might not buy into the christian religion

can you please tell me where in the bible these quotes coime from and which
religion buys into all of these.As for Constantine i think thats a bit of a long shot.

bryaner

Religion is for uneducated schmucks that can't understand science end of..

MrPudding

bryaner wrote: »

Religion is for uneducated schmucks that can't understand science end of..

Not a huge fan of religion, butni reckon this is wrong. This is exactly where cognative dissonance comes into play.

MrP

the_syco

joseph brand wrote: »

All religions think they alone are correct, and all others are praising the wrong made-up gods. They speak of other 'false' religions in a haughty tone.

christians 'know' muslims are wasting their time.
muslims 'know' christians are wasting their time.
They cancel each other out.

IIRC Muslims do however accept that Jesus was another prophet.

srsly78

MungoMan wrote: »

5. The bible's story doesnt co-relate well with the big bang theory.

"let there be light" seems to be the only bit the bible got right.

robindch

srsly78 wrote: »

"let there be light" seems to be the only bit the bible got right.

I would dispute that -- According to Genesis, the "let there be light and there was light" happened on the first day, but things had to wait until the third day before god remembered to create the sources of light:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV

Sarky

Would light have been able to exist at the beginning, anyway? I'd imagine the crazy gravitational forces, lack of space/time and incredible energies would have made normal physics go and have a lie down.

Turtwig

Also what about the massive rapid inflationary period? A description I quite like :

Tegmark. wrote:

...My favorite deep explanation is that our baby universe grew like a baby human — literally. Right after your conception, each of your cells doubled roughly daily, causing your total number of cells to increase day by day as 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. Repeated doubling is a powerful process, so your Mom would have been in trouble if you'd kept doubling your weight every day until you were born: after nine months (about 274 doublings), you would have weighed more than all the matter in our observable universe combined. Crazy as it sounds, this is exactly what our baby universe did according to the inflation theory pioneered by Alan Guth and others...

Seems a vital poetic description to omit. . .

Dades

MungoMan wrote: »

Lets hear some other reasons why a normal clear thinking unbiased person might not buy into the christian religion

They were born in a Muslim/Jewish/Hindu society?

robindch

MungoMan wrote: »

Lets hear some other reasons why a normal clear thinking unbiased person might not buy into the christian religion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRcM_aS_kJ0

Kivaro

I like your question OP: buy into Christian religion, as 'buy' is the key word.

All religions are just human inventions that were formed to terrify and enslave man, and to monopolize power and profit.

Another reason not to 'buy in' to the Christian religion is the concept of Purgatory, which was a man-made concept where people could be forgiven of their sins by paying off the church. This farce lasted for centuries.

Religion: The biggest fraud perpetrated by man on man (and on woman, who over the millenia has bared the biggest burden of this con job).

Improbable

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

MrStuffins

Silly thread TBH. Why would you need reasons NOT to buy into something like this?

seamus

Just boil it back to basics. The entire house of cards is based on a single book being the word of God, written through men. There is no proof or justification for this belief (the book says it's true), therefore there is no reason to hald that book in more reverance than Mein Kampf and the entire belief system of the Abrahamic religions falls apart.

You're wasting your time arguing specific points of doctrine. It's a book, and nothing more. You may as well argue against the validity of quotes from a Spiderman comic.

What I find strange is that people who wear red uniforms, pointy ears and go around worshipping William Shatner are seen as weirdos, yet when you wear a funny pointy hat, chant mindless prayers and worship an invisible zombie, that's perfectly rational.

krudler

seamus wrote: »

Just boil it back to basics. The entire house of cards is based on a single book being the word of God, written through men. There is no proof or justification for this belief (the book says it's true), therefore there is no reason to hald that book in more reverance than Mein Kampf and the entire belief system of the Abrahamic religions falls apart.

You're wasting your time arguing specific points of doctrine. It's a book, and nothing more. You may as well argue against the validity of quotes from a Spiderman comic.

What I find strange is that people who wear red uniforms, pointy ears and go around worshipping William Shatner are seen as weirdos, yet when you wear a funny pointy hat, chant mindless prayers and worship an invisible zombie, that's perfectly rational.

bang on, a book written in the bronze age by men, who claim its true because....well they said so. thats it? thats the entire basis for your "true" religion? because thats the why?

Anyone who claims to have been told by god to write stuff down is seen as a lunatic these days, but back then they were seen as devine secretarys taking notes from the big man himself.

Gurgle

MungoMan wrote: »

1. The bible says the world is flat

Nope, doesn't. Mis-translation apparently.

MungoMan wrote: »

2. The bible says the world began 4000 years ago (during the agricultural revolution)

Nope, doesn't. The 6000 year timeline was extrapolated by some Irish bishop in the 19th century.

MungoMan wrote: »

3. The only reason christianity caught on is because emperor constantine poured a lot of cash into it (to unify the Roman empire)

Thats no excuse.

MungoMan wrote: »

4. Nobody knows who wrote the bible (maybe they do, but this is the kind of thing Im looking for, if its true.

Meh

MungoMan wrote: »

5. The bible's story doesnt co-relate well with the big bang theory.

They're not mutually exclusive, there are a variety of ways to connect them (time dilation, non-sequential 6 days etc.).

MungoMan wrote: »

Lets hear some other reasons why a normal clear thinking unbiased person might not buy into the christian religion

The same 2 reasons why all religions can be logically rejected:
1. You must believe that our imaginary friend made and is in charge of the universe.
2. We're right and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Sarky

1. It's bollocks.

/thread

kylith

Well, the Christians say if I'm not a Christian I go to hell.
The Muslims say if I'm not a Muslim I'll go to hell.
Every other religion says that if I don't follow them I'll go to hell.

So, since I'm going to hell no matter what god I worship, or don't worship, I may as well eat pork, drink booze, and have a lie in in the mornings. Plus, as an atheist I don't feel pressured to be all judgemental about other people's so-called 'sins', which is good because it saves vital energy for watching House.

Penn

I've said before, the most genius thing religions have done is have some concept of everlasting life, whether it be Heaven, Paradise or Reincarnation. It's something nobody can disprove (but obviously something nobody can prove either), it is the ultimate reward and fear of Hell keeps you in line.

Why not buy into the Christian Religion? Because if you took out the rewards (Heaven, God answering prayers etc) and the religion was just worship God and follow his rules until you die and when you die there's no Heaven or Hell, you just die, then all you're left with is worshipping and pledging your life to an evil, jealous, attention-seeking, apathetic, misogynistic, bigoted sh*tstain, who makes arbitrary rules and commands for no good reason and who treats people like they're his toys. And nobody would ever do that.

Why not buy into the Christian Religion? Because only the rewards make it worthwhile to buy into it, and since neither the rewards nor God can be proven, I'd rather not follow something which only ever goes in circles.

Doctor DooM

cassElliot wrote: »

there's a theory in psychology formulated by leon festinger.

Anyone else absent mindedly start looking for the psychology forum?

old_aussie

I'm an infidel and I'm open for business, anyone want to buy in.

joseph brand

kylith wrote: »

Well, the Christians say if I'm not a Christian I go to hell.
The Muslims say if I'm not a Muslim I'll go to hell.
Every other religion says that if I don't follow them I'll go to hell.

So, since I'm going to hell no matter what god I worship, or don't worship, I may as well eat pork, drink booze, and have a lie in in the mornings. Plus, as an atheist I don't feel pressured to be all judgemental about other people's so-called 'sins', which is good because it saves vital energy for watching House.

You forgot about all the mass you're missing out on. All that droning. :rolleyes:


Life should NOT be a journey to the grave
with the intention of arriving safely
in an attractive and well preserved body,
But rather to skid in sideways,
chocolate spliff in one hand,
wine beer in the other,
body thoroughly used up,
totally worn out and screaming
"WOO HOO what a ride!"
(Maxine cartoon)

I had to change it a little. One must sample the fruits of life. The church offers only stale bread.

kylith

joseph brand wrote: »

You forgot about all the mass you're missing out on. All that droning. :rolleyes:


Life should NOT be a journey to the grave
with the intention of arriving safely
in an attractive and well preserved body,
But rather to skid in sideways,
chocolate spliff in one hand,
wine beer in the other,
body thoroughly used up,
totally worn out and screaming
"WOO HOO what a ride!"
(Maxine cartoon)

I had to change it a little. One must sample the fruits of life. The church offers only stale bread.

Ah, the mass. Even the word 'mass' is pretty drone-y. Maaaaaaaaaass.

And I think you probably just edited the quote back to its original Bill Hicks configuration

eyescreamcone

Why not buy into Christian religion?

Because god stuff is not real!

Rezident

joseph brand wrote: »

christians 'know' muslims are wasting their time.
muslims 'know' christians are wasting their time.
They cancel each other out.

Sadly they don't, even Newt Gingrich wouldn't try to make Leviticus into law but some of the muslim states make their most dangerous ideas into legalling binding laws e.g apostatsy punishable by death.

Tolerance is great but at what point do we just have to do a simple cost/benefit analysis and say enough is enough, no, you do not have the right to your beliefs if they require killing, maiming etc. the rest of us?

MrPudding

Penn wrote: »

I've said before, the most genius thing religions have done is have some concept of everlasting life, whether it be Heaven, Paradise or Reincarnation. It's something nobody can disprove (but obviously something nobody can prove either), it is the ultimate reward and fear of Hell keeps you in line.

Threads like this remind me of "invention of lying." Irrespective of you you might think of Ricky Gervais you need to see this movie.

OK, it did not win any Oscars, but when you are watching it you can't help but think "actually, that really could be what happened."

MrP

MrStuffins

MrPudding wrote: »

Threads like this remind me of "invention of lying." Irrespective of you you might think of Ricky Gervais you need to see this movie.

OK, it did not win any Oscars, but when you are watching it you can't help but think "actually, that really could be what happened."

MrP

As an Ahtiest, that movie made me facepalm so so many times!

Although a lot of what happened and what he said in the movie makes sense, I know that if it was a similar movie but made from a Christian stand-point, i'd be demanding my money back at the cinema for being preached to!

joseph brand

Rezident wrote: »

Sadly they don't, even Newt Gingrich wouldn't try to make Leviticus into law but some of the muslim states make their most dangerous ideas into legalling binding laws e.g apostatsy punishable by death.

Tolerance is great but at what point do we just have to do a simple cost/benefit analysis and say enough is enough, no, you do not have the right to your beliefs if they require killing, maiming etc. the rest of us?

Are you sure? The Rep candidates smell of religious fanaticism. god/ jebus/ holy spirit have been talking to them regularly. (except Ron Paul ofc)


BTW, you can substitute the word muslim or christian with any other world religion. Heck, even christians denominations disagree. But they will support each other against the common enemy; Educated, humane, progressive Atheists.

Penn

MrPudding wrote: »

Threads like this remind me of "invention of lying." Irrespective of you you might think of Ricky Gervais you need to see this movie.

OK, it did not win any Oscars, but when you are watching it you can't help but think "actually, that really could be what happened."

MrP

Yeah, saw that alright (I'm a fan of Ricky Gervais, but this movie sucked).

MrPudding

Penn wrote: »

Yeah, saw that alright (I'm a fan of Ricky Gervais, but this movie sucked).

I actually quite like it, but that is not the point. When he lied to his mum and made up the story of the "man in the sky" that is something that you could actually see happening. The reasons he did it, his mother was scared of dying, and the result it had, she was no longer scared of dying, just seems liek something that could have happened.

Also, for some reason I enjoy hearing Jennifer Garner talking about masturbating...

MrP

Penn

MrPudding wrote: »

I actually quite like it, but that is not the point. When he lied to his mum and made up the story of the "man in the sky" that is something that you could actually see happening. The reasons he did it, his mother was scared of dying, and the result it had, she was no longer scared of dying, just seems liek something that could have happened.

Also, for some reason I enjoy hearing Jennifer Garner talking about masturbating...

MrP

Oh yeah, I understand and thought the same thing when I saw the movie. I just didn't like the film. Commandments on pizza boxes aside (a little too on the nose and silly, could have been more subtle), the whole premise annoyed me and was flawed. Fair enough, nobody can lie, but that also doesn't mean everyone has to say everything which comes into their head, knowing it would offend someone. And even then, how can anybody be offended in a world like that? People would constantly be commenting on someone like Gervais being overweight, and since these people can also not lie to themselves, they will also know that they're overweight or have a big nose etc.

I actually really like the majority of Gervais' (and Merchant's) work, but I really disliked that film.

RichieC

Rezident wrote: »

Sadly they don't, even Newt Gingrich wouldn't try to make Leviticus into law but some of the muslim states make their most dangerous ideas into legalling binding laws e.g apostatsy punishable by death.

Tolerance is great but at what point do we just have to do a simple cost/benefit analysis and say enough is enough, no, you do not have the right to your beliefs if they require killing, maiming etc. the rest of us?

It's less to do with the religion and more to do with the society they're apart of. Strict Shariah law is but one interpretation of the Quaran. There are many Muslims who do not subscribe to Wahhabi style Islam. Salafi islam is more of a political reactionary style of the faith.

Remember, the bible orders the death of non-believers too. Christians are quick to blame Islam as a whole, as it suits their agenda. But nobody thinks to blame Christianity as whole when Christians do crazy stuff like murder Abortion doctors or slaughter 69 kids in Norway.

I personally would love to see all Religion disappear, but it's unrealistic. People need to do better not to alienate the moderate Muslims, pushing them into a reactionary stance and aiding the extremists. It's one of the main reasons I am so vehemently against the Invasion of Iran and interventionism in the Middle East in general.

Bannasidhe

I now have a standing agreement with everyone I know who has a religious belief (Christians, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists and Wiccans - actually, now that I think about it - I know a lot of religious people - how bizarre :eek:). I am willing to listen, with interest, to what they believe and tell them in turn what I believe (or more to the point - don't). Then we can both say 'Really? Amazing'.

If, however, they are foolish enough to try and tell me what I believe is wrong and I should believe what they believe - then it's game F'ing ON!!

Daftendirekt

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I now have a standing agreement with everyone I know who has a religious belief (Christians, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists and Wiccans - actually, now that I think about it - I know a lot of religious people - how bizarre :eek:). I am willing to listen, with interest, to what they believe and tell them in turn what I believe (or more to the point - don't). Then we can both say 'Really? Amazing'.

If, however, they are foolish enough to try and tell me what I believe is wrong and I should believe what they believe - then it's game F'ing ON!!

I love that game :pac:

Readyhed

bryaner wrote: »

Religion is for uneducated schmucks that can't understand science end of..

What often worries me a little is that both Issac Newton And Albert Einstein were fervent believers in an omnipotent being. Both, I think, even believed in the whole Bible and Jesus thing.

I'm in full agreement with the cognitive dissonance theory. In fact I came up with this all on my own when studying marketing. People believe what they want to be true.

In the case of religion this force is immensely powerful if it could cause the 2 smartest men in human history to buy into it.

sonicthebadger*

Why not buy into it? Because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I'm not overwhelmed with evidence here... not even a wiff of a whelm. Bereft of whelm I am.

Galvasean

Whel, I'm unimpressed!

Corinthian

Readyhed wrote: »

What often worries me a little is that both Issac Newton And Albert Einstein were fervent believers in an omnipotent being. Both, I think, even believed in the whole Bible and Jesus thing.

Einstein seems to have said a lot of contradictory things about religion at different times, but from most of what I've read he doesn't seem to have been a believer, e.g.

Albert Einstein wrote:

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. link

seamus

Readyhed wrote: »

What often worries me a little is that both Issac Newton And Albert Einstein were fervent believers in an omnipotent being. Both, I think, even believed in the whole Bible and Jesus thing.

Newton was fairly eccentric, at best. An absolute genius when it came to working within the confines of his mind, but completely and utterly off his rocker when working with the rest of reality.

It wouldn't surprise me if he was a fervent believer. The thing about science, especially back then, is that most people believed that the scope for investigation was finite. That all they were doing was investigation God's wonderful creation and through science they were simply opening "gifts" of knowledge from God.

It's impossible to extrapolate the consequences of any particular discovery, so they would have no idea that the sum total of scientific knowledge would eventually discredit and prove wrong all of the major religious texts.

Gregor Mendel is generally considered to be the father of modern genetics. His research led to the discovery of genes, which directly lead to the discovery of DNA and so onto the decoding of DNA and observation of DNA in all living things.
By consequence this allowed for evolutionary biology to progress to a point from being a strong theory to a given fact by being able to carry out DNA comparisons across species and prove beyond doubt that all life evolved from an ancestor species and that all life shares a common ancestor.
This fact effectively puts the final nail in the old testament by showing that Genesis is a fairy story, which in turn destroys the entire basis of all the Abrahamic religions and shows them to be nonsense.

Gregor Mendel, the man who precipitated this, was a Catholic monk.

Otacon

Jernal wrote: »

It's a work of violent misogynistic, homophobic, racist, and genocidal, fiction.

Are we talking about the Transformers movies?

Attabear

Otacon wrote: »

Are we talking about the Transformers movies?

The Transformers movies make a lot more logical sense.

(Did I just say that?)

*shakes head*

Not the animated one though, that's awesome and worthy as a basis for religion.

The hymns would be poor quality 80's rock songs.

Muppet Man

Why not to buy into Christian religion

Aside from everything else already mentioned...

Assume there are 2 billion christians in the world (Catholic/Protestant/Orhtodox).
Assume the world population is 7 billion.
Inversely 5 out of 7 people in the world are not Christian.

71% of the world population cant be wrong.

Barr125

Muppet Man wrote: »

Aside from everything else already mentioned...

Assume there are 2 billion christians in the world (Catholic/Protestant/Orhtodox).
Assume the world population is 7 billion.
Inversely 5 out of 7 people in the world are not Christian.

71% of the world population cant be wrong.

Unfortunately, you're only taking Christianity into account. Don't forget the Jewish, Islamic, Hindi and indigenous primal religions(in some senses). So it's actually more that 71% of the worlds population IS wrong, and 33% of them are Christian.

Welcome to the 16%

Readyhed

Corinthian wrote: »

Einstein seems to have said a lot of contradictory things about religion at different times, but from most of what I've read he doesn't seem to have been a believer, e.g.

Did a quick google on this and it seems you do have a valid point. I always took the phrase "God does not play dice with the universe" to
imply a religious belief. I can now see, however, that he meant God in a much more abstract sense. Nevertheless the reason for my comment was to respond to the opinion that:
"Religion is for uneducated schmucks that can't understand science"

I'm sure that there are plenty of modern day examples of people who are anything but "uneducated smucks" who are nevertheless devout christians. The thing is you can never tell for sure. In many ways it is
still politically correct to proclaim a belief in god if you want to progress in certain fields. Is Tony Blair genuinely a Jesus freak or is it just good for business?

Einstein also said this:
"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."
Sort of agrees with the cognitive dissonance theory as well.

Perhaps my point is this. (A view that was expressed in the movie "Contact" some years ago.)
About 90% of the people on earth believe in some form of a divine creator. This means that 10% of the people believe that the other 90% are completely dillusional about something that
is pretty fundamental to man - the meaning of life.(I don't know if the figure is 90% or not but you get the idea - It's a lot of people)

As one of the non-believers I find this more than a little disturbing.

Gurgle

Readyhed wrote: »

In many ways it is still politically correct to proclaim a belief in god if you want to progress in certain fields.

^^ This, only more so.

Ellis Dee

Jernal wrote: »

It's a work of violent misogynistic, homophobic, racist, and genocidal, fiction.

In addition to which it isn't even original.;) Almost every idea and concept in it can be found in older stories from India and Persia and other places in that part of the world, and they in turn are often derived from oral tales passed down over the centuries and millennia. The Bible that we know today is largely the result of careful and selective editing for political purposes. Yet there are lots and lots of fools who have been duped into basing all of their thinking and actions on "scripture", which they see as incontrovertible, but is actually as genuine as a nine-euro note.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

That said, it's not just Christianity that is best avoided. ALL theistic religion is strictly for the birds!:eek: