Do Purple Irish Rail Tickets Breach Data Protection?

foggy_lad

Does the current policy within Irish Rail of using Purple Tickets for free travel tickets breach Data Protection regulations as it easily identifies a free travel pass holder to everyone by the vivid colour on the ticket?

These tickets are already marked with a zero fare and are printed as social welfare single or return so should it not be the case that the standard ticket colour be used whether it be yellow blue pink green or whatever for adult singles and returns?

bigpink

True it would save alot of money on just using one ticket type

n97 mini

It's also arguable that under-16s can be identified by the colour of their tickets, as can families, regular fare-paying adults, etc.

I'm not an expert but Data Protection regulations apply to data. Data is information which is stored. Issuing you with a purple ticket does not constitute data.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does the current policy within Irish Rail of using Purple Tickets for free travel tickets breach Data Protection regulations as it easily identifies a free travel pass holder to everyone by the vivid colour on the ticket?

These tickets are already marked with a zero fare and are printed as social welfare single or return so should it not be the case that the standard ticket colour be used whether it be yellow blue pink green or whatever for adult singles and returns?

There is an arguement to be made for the complete abolition of the DSP Free Travel pass per se,with it's replacement by a cash transfer to qualifying recipients to be spent as they see fit.

That would allow substance and alcohol abusers to decide the relative importance of their needs...either get their buzz or their bus...but not both at public expense.

The cash payment would also allow persons who are physically far removed from mainstream Public Transport to still recieve the monetary benefit to spend at their discretion.

It would also,at a stroke remove any of this real or imagined codology regarding discrimination or identification of DSP customers.

I'm afraid that we really have little grasp of the current realities when stuff like this is occupying the otherwise fertile minds of the citizenry.

If a Free Travel recipient is that exercised about identity,the option of paying a fare and remaining anonymous is always available.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

It's also arguable that under-16s can be identified by the colour of their tickets, as can families, regular fare-paying adults, etc.

I'm not an expert but Data Protection regulations apply to data. Data is information which is stored. Issuing you with a purple ticket does not constitute data.

The normal is that tickets are categorised as adult single and return and child single and return and student family etc all have a different colour so why not use the same adult or child tickets to issue free travel tickets?

Afaik all these tickets have a zero cost printed on them and are also printed with adult/child social welfare single or return so there is technically no good reason to further identify passengers to others by forcing them to accept a different colour ticket. Afaik there is also a facility to print the full pps number onto the tickets but have been told this is rarely if ever done. It is very much like a form of apartheid.

Irish Rail seem to like doing things their own way like forcing passengers to accept a return ticket when they only ask for a single, afaik this practice has been going on for years!

It caused a stir a couple of years ago when they started putting the full pps number onto tickets as people who went Down the country in the morning to visit friends or relatives were prohibited from getting any other ticket using their free travel pass untill they had used the return portion of the social welfare return they had been given that morning.

Most of these people were unaware they had been given a return ticket as they would have asked for singles but Irish Rails policy of massaging passenger numbers means most if not all free travel pass holders get return tickets! Afaik this is now why they don't put the full pps number onto social welfare tickets! so their own incompetent actions are contributing to the fraudulent abuse of the free travel scheme!

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is very much like a form of apartheid.

It's not really, as people aren't forced to wear their tickets and sit in a separate part of the train.

And to be honest when people aren't paying for something they're getting for free, they don't really have any grounds to complain about the colour of the ticket.

Reform of the system is needed alright, but making all the tickets the same colour is not the place to start.

mickydoomsux

Just to point out, the purple blank tickets are "general stock".

They are also used for 1st class tickets, ticket extensions/excess, family tickets, dog tickets, bike tickets and various other special ticket types that crop up from time to time that don't fit in anywhere else.

Once again, let's not go crazy and let facts get in the way of another good story of conspiracy and victimization :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Just to point out, the purple blank tickets are "general stock".

They are also used for 1st class tickets, ticket extensions/excess, family tickets, dog tickets, bike tickets and various other special ticket types that crop up from time to time that don't fit in anywhere else.

Once again, let's not go crazy and let facts get in the way of another good story of conspiracy and victimization :rolleyes:

Thanks for that information, so Free pass holders are treated like bikes and dogs:D:D

as for your little remark about facts conspiracy and victimisation, Irish rail don't publish any information about their ticket colours so how are we the general public to know what you just posted?

Did a senior management person in Irish Rail not state some time ago that they used purple tickets so they would know the numbers of people using free travel?

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

It's not really, as people aren't forced to wear their tickets and sit in a separate part of the train.

And to be honest when people aren't paying for something they're getting for free, they don't really have any grounds to complain about the colour of the ticket.

Reform of the system is needed alright, but making all the tickets the same colour is not the place to start.

what about people being given return tickets as standard so fraudulently increasing the numbers of passengers using free tickets?

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

as for your little remark about facts conspiracy and victimisation, Irish rail don't publish any information about their ticket colours so how are we the general public to know what you just posted?

They don't publish any information because the color of the ticket doesn't matter to 99.9% of people.

Cookie_Monster

If they feel singled out for getting purple tickets they are fully entitled to buy a normal coloured one like everyone else...

It's a concession ticket, why should it not be different and easily identifiable. Means inspectors can instantly know to check for an accompanying pass rather than having to double check the ticket details first

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

It's also arguable that under-16s can be identified by the colour of their tickets, as can families, regular fare-paying adults, etc.

Agreed, what a ridicolous thead to start and a complete non issue. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

cast_iron

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish rail don't publish any information about their ticket colours so how are we the general public to know what you just posted?

How can you claim that, yet state it's a form of apartheid at the same time? You've actually managed to counter-argue the sense from your own argument.

foggy_lad

cast_iron wrote: »

How can you claim that, yet state it's a form of apartheid at the same time? You've actually managed to counter-argue the sense from your own argument.

All other passengers are categorised by being adult or child or student yet the purple ticket is seen as a free travel ticket by everyone, myself included. Why are those with free travel not given the same colour ticket based on whether they are adult or child as the ticket is not chargeable either way? As for ticket checkers needing to see quickly that it is a free ticket surely they should be checking such tickets more carefully and this will happen if they have to look at the destination and fare.

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

All other passengers are categorised by being adult or child or student yet the purple ticket is seen as a free travel ticket by everyone, myself included. Why are those with free travel not given the same colour ticket based on whether they are adult or child as the ticket is not chargeable either way? As for ticket checkers needing to see quickly that it is a free ticket surely they should be checking such tickets more carefully and this will happen if they have to look at the destination and fare.

as I've already said you are free to buy an adult ticket if you feel you need one the same colour.

As Mickydoomsux's has already said they are for a variety of uses, not just free rides, you could say they are for everything except standard fare groups.

There are a lot of things to complain about in relation to Irish Rail, but I cannot see how this is one of them.

Victor

devnull wrote: »

what a ridicolous thead to start

Whatever the merits or not of a thread, it is not for you to decide what threads can be started or not.

trellheim

I didn't know this till recently but the pass is colour coded, don't you have to show the pass if the ticket is inspected ?

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/swi_freeschemes.aspx

flyingsnail

trellheim wrote: »

I didn't know this till recently but the pass is colour coded, don't you have to show the pass if the ticket is inspected ?

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/swi_freeschemes.aspx

As far as I know the ticket is not valid unless you have the pass.

foggy_lad

trellheim wrote: »

I didn't know this till recently but the pass is colour coded, don't you have to show the pass if the ticket is inspected ?

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/swi_freeschemes.aspx

you must show the pass to a ticket agent at a railway station to get a ticket or bus driver to be allowed onto a bus. there is no ticket issued on buses unless you are crossing the border when some form of travel warrant is issued.

Irish Rail issue tickets for travel but instead of issuing the same colour as other adults or child tickets they issue purple for free travel pass holders and the general attitude is what are they complaining about when they are getting it for nothing. Even the St Vincent De Paul are more discrete in giving people food parcels or bags of coal or bottles of gas.

Will the next thing for Irish Rail be a separate travel class for travel pass holders?

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Even the St Vincent De Paul are more discrete in giving people food parcels or bags of coal or bottles of gas.

SVP is a charity, for the poor. Travel passes are for disabled. You can be rich and disabled.

foggy_lad

flyingsnail wrote: »

As far as I know the ticket is not valid unless you have the pass.

You must also show or surrender the pass when asked by any agent or employee of the transport company acting on behalf of the company and they are entitled to confiscate the pass where they believe it is being used fraudulently.

Jehuty42

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish Rail issue tickets for travel but instead of issuing the same colour as other adults or child tickets they issue purple for free travel pass holders

Yes, because as was pointed out earlier, purple tickets are just generic tickets that can have anything printed on them, so they're used for this.

foggy_lad wrote: »

and the general attitude is what are they complaining about when they are getting it for nothing.

How do you know that?

foggy_lad wrote: »

Will the next thing for Irish Rail be a separate travel class for travel pass holders?

Quite simply, no, and to suggest otherwise is the height of hyperbole.

parsi

I sort of agree with Foggy.

When I get on the bus and hand over my €1.70 I receive a white ticket from the bus driver. Depending on the service I can feel the skangers laughing and thinking "look at that guy - he paid for his journey".

Same on the train - if I take out my ordinary colour ticket then those same skangers with their Dutch Gold and trackies can tell that I'm a paying customer and not a wide-boy like them.

I fear that it might in some way breach data protection and target me as a worthwhile mugging victim.

Cookie_Monster

@ parsi - lol

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

you must show the pass to a ticket agent at a railway station to get a ticket or bus driver to be allowed onto a bus. there is no ticket issued on buses unless you are crossing the border when some form of travel warrant is issued.

Irish Rail issue tickets for travel but instead of issuing the same colour as other adults or child tickets they issue purple for free travel pass holders and the general attitude is what are they complaining about when they are getting it for nothing. Even the St Vincent De Paul are more discrete in giving people food parcels or bags of coal or bottles of gas.

Will the next thing for Irish Rail be a separate travel class for travel pass holders?

Why not, sounds like a good idea. It might free up the good seats to those that pay hard earned cash.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

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Why not, sounds like a good idea. It might free up the good seats to those that pay hard earned cash.

You know I normally wouldn't have any problem with a statement like that if I felt that paying hard earned cash was returning good value for money, but in this case I feel to an extent that it's paying for (to quote Brendan Ogle) "gravy" for a privileged group of "wurkers" (to quote Clare Daly).

Hilly Bill

No, its paying for a journey on a train. If the train was full, why should a person that paid cash for the journey have to stand when a person on free travel gets a seat? Thats just a scenario only .

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No, its paying for a journey on a train. If the train was full, why should a person that paid cash for the journey have to stand when a person on free travel gets a seat? Thats just a scenario only .

but both journeys are paid for. subvention pays for the free travel pass holders adn without this none of the CIE companies would survive.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No, its paying for a journey on a train. If the train was full, why should a person that paid cash for the journey have to stand when a person on free travel gets a seat? Thats just a scenario only .

but both journeys are paid for. subvention pays for the free travel pass holders adn without this none of the CIE companies would survive.

Then why aren't both of the passengers paying?

The subvention could be reduced if pass holders were made to contribute something for their journeys.

And before you say that they just wouldn't travel then that proves that passes are being used for nonessential travel if people can decide to not bother once they are asked for a couple of quid towards their ticket that they previously got for nothing.

BrianD

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does the current policy within Irish Rail of using Purple Tickets for free travel tickets breach Data Protection regulations as it easily identifies a free travel pass holder to everyone by the vivid colour on the ticket?

These tickets are already marked with a zero fare and are printed as social welfare single or return so should it not be the case that the standard ticket colour be used whether it be yellow blue pink green or whatever for adult singles and returns?

No it doesn't. There is no breach of data protection. All it says is what type of ticket it is.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Then why aren't both of the passengers paying?

The subvention could be reduced if pass holders were made to contribute something for their journeys.

And before you say that they just wouldn't travel then that proves that passes are being used for nonessential travel if people can decide to not bother once they are asked for a couple of quid towards their ticket that they previously got for nothing.

But passes are not just for essential travel! There is nothing in law or the free travel scheme rules and guidelines stating that free travel can only be used when absolutely necessary. There is no limit on the amount of travel any one person can avail of.

The passes are to enable pensioners and others entitled to free travel to travel when they otherwise would not have travelled because it may be beneficial to them in terms of getting out of the house, blood circulation, exercise(very important after operations), medical appointments etc as well as for social purposes. most of the persons entitled are not well off and because of their disability and circumstances wont be as affluent as some posters would like us to think so would not be in a position to pay for buses and trains for the journeys they would need to take.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Then why aren't both of the passengers paying?

The subvention could be reduced if pass holders were made to contribute something for their journeys.

And before you say that they just wouldn't travel then that proves that passes are being used for nonessential travel if people can decide to not bother once they are asked for a couple of quid towards their ticket that they previously got for nothing.

But passes are not just for essential travel! There is nothing in law or the free travel scheme rules and guidelines stating that free travel can only be used when absolutely necessary. There is no limit on the amount of travel any one person can avail of.

The passes are to enable pensioners and others entitled to free travel to travel when they otherwise would not have travelled because it may be beneficial to them in terms of getting out of the house, blood circulation, exercise(very important after operations), medical appointments etc as well as for social purposes. most of the persons entitled are not well off and because of their disability and circumstances wont be as affluent as some posters would like us to think so would not be in a position to pay for buses and trains for the journeys they would need to take.

And you expect people not to have a problem with that?

Times are tough for everyone and yet you think that it is ok to give certain people completely free, unlimited use, nationwide travel so that they can use it for their leisure and socialising?

How is that fair to fare paying customers?

Trekker tickets are the same colour. I know because I got one.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

And you expect people not to have a problem with that?

Times are tough for everyone and yet you think that it is ok to give certain people completely free, unlimited use, nationwide travel so that they can use it for their leisure and socialising?

How is that fair to fare paying customers?

I have no problem with it as i know some people who have free travel, some elderly and some disabled and they are not the sort of wasters that many people on Commuting & Transport believe they are.

For someone with a disability or mobility impairment living in Carlow or Waterford or any large town a trip to Dublin can cost a lot more than the normal person has to pay, There is usually €12-€20 or more to be paid for a taxi to and from the bus or train in the town they live and possibly more taxis in Dublin if going to a hospital appointment. This is usually more than most people pay for their normal return fare to Dublin and this cost can greatly increase if the person lives in a rural setting.

In reality for many free travel pass holders it barely allows them to travel at the same cost as everyone else.

billy the squid

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No, its paying for a journey on a train. If the train was full, why should a person that paid cash for the journey have to stand when a person on free travel gets a seat? Thats just a scenario only .

perhaps because the person using the pass is incapable of standing?

Aard

How many others will now be looking out for purple tickets next time they take the train? :P

Seriously, foggy, I don't think anybody knows about this (even the purple-ticket holders themselves).

dowlingm

Why is this even a question anymore. It's been shown Purple tickets are NOT solely used by SW holders. So where's the discrimination?

Hilly Bill

billy the squid wrote: »

perhaps because the person using the pass is incapable of standing?

then they would be in a wheelchair wont they? Im only talking about the ones that could stand.

flyingsnail

Hilly Bill wrote: »

then they would be in a wheelchair wont they? Im only talking about the ones that could stand.

What about people who could walk a short distance but might not be able to stand for a prolonged period? Or may may be unsteady on their feet and the jostling movement of the train may be enough to knock them over?

Hilly Bill

flyingsnail wrote: »

What about people who could walk a short distance but might not be able to stand for a prolonged period? Or may may be unsteady on their feet and the jostling movement of the train may be enough to knock them over?

You have missed the point, not all with a free pass have a disability of sorts.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You have missed the point, not all with a free pass have a disability of sorts.

While for Irish Rail anyone who is disabled is either able to walk as good as anyone else or is confined to a wheelchair, there is no middle ground! You just have to look at the new footbridges they are building where disabled persons are expected to walk distances of up to a kilometre to cross the railway. Ah sure wont they be in a wheelchair if they are truly disabled!

goingnowhere

But the new bridges comply with the accessibility legislation which mandates a certain slope for ramps and requires that every certain number of steps there is a landing

You can't have it every way, you blame Irish Rail for doing A but the law says they must do A and if you actually had worked with people with the full range of disabilities as I have you have no idea how much better it makes life

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

While for Irish Rail anyone who is disabled is either able to walk as good as anyone else or is confined to a wheelchair, there is no middle ground! You just have to look at the new footbridges they are building where disabled persons are expected to walk distances of up to a kilometre to cross the railway. Ah sure wont they be in a wheelchair if they are truly disabled!

What are you on about now?