What's missing from the NCT?

corglass

People regularly complain about the NCT not up to scratch as a means of testing a car.

i.e. Just because a car that's for sale has one, does not mean it's mechanically up to the job.

I was wondering what specific items people think are missing (without this becoming an NCT bashing thread )

e.g.

• Should they check the manufacture rated PSI against what's the 4 tyres?
  
• Should they run an OBD2 scan on the ECU?

superstoner90

I dont understand.

El Guapo!

corglass wrote: »

People regularly complain about the NCT not up to scratch as a means of testing a car.

i.e. Just because a car that's for sale has one, does not mean it's mechanically up to the job.

I was wondering what specific items people think are missing (without this becoming an NCT bashing thread )

e.g.

• Should they check the manufacture rated PSI against what's the 4 tyres?
  
• Should they run an OBD2 scan on the ECU?

They should actually test brake fluid rather than just checking the level. It would only take an extra couple of minutes and moisture in brake fluid could potentially be lethal.

corglass

corglass wrote: »

People regularly complain about the NCT not up to scratch as a means of testing a car.

i.e. Just because a car that's for sale has one, does not mean it's mechanically up to the job.............

It's a test to decide is the car roadworthy at that particular time, you can have brake pads and discs well worn and still pass, there can be any number of things wrong with the car that don't effect the road worthiness of it but would effect the longevity of it. For example the rad could be full of crud and water but that's not an issue, the brake fluid could be twenty years old.

As a test of road worthiness it does what it's meant to, as a test of how good a purchase the car is or what general condition it's in the test isn't great but that's not what it's for.

CiniO

RoverJames wrote: »

It's a test to decide is the car roadworthy at that particular time, you can have brake pads and discs well worn and still pass

Heh no longer than today afternoon a friend from work, showed me a completely word brake pad, which she just got replaced, because there was already metal-to-metal sound. No pad left really.

She only passed NCT 500km earlier, and she was surprices how could it pass.

DanWall

Dean09. I could never understand how a completely sealed system as the brakes are, could get moisture into the oil

Merch

CiniO wrote: »

Heh no longer than today afternoon a friend from work, showed me a completely word brake pad, which she just got replaced, because there was already metal-to-metal sound. No pad left really.

She only passed NCT 500km earlier, and she was surprices how could it pass.

I dont understand why she still had the remains of the brake pad?? :eek:
Its kind of a haz waste.
I'm a bit suprised as the NCT centre I have gone to have failed car on worn pads, I knew they were due to be done, fairly low (but not metal) , as there were other possible things due (CV boots needed replacing and I didnt notice a torn boot on the steering rack) I was using it as my pre test to see what was needed.
Maybe they thought there was a reasonable amount of brake material on them and it passed the brake test? and erred in favour of passing it, Maybe the pads deteriorated rapidly after the test? I can see that being a possibility when they get low, they might get eaten up quickly by discs that had previously had metal to metal contact from low pads.
I wont defend much about the NCT but it is up to the owner to manage their own maintenance or defer to people that do.

dr.fuzzenstein

How about whilst waiting for your car, doing a few very simple questions on the ROTR?

Merch

DanWall wrote: »

Dean09. I could never understand how a completely sealed system as the brakes are, could get moisture into the oil

I dont think it necessarily is a completely sealed system, there is a vent in there somewhere to allow a head of atmospheric pressure surely or there could be vapour locks??
Either way the fluid (oil?) is hygroscopic so absorbs moisture over time, which reduces the effectiveness of the fluid (moisture boils off under pressure/temp more easily), effectively turning a non compressible fluid into a compressible fluid, reducing the braking effectiveness. I'd need to look it up to get an exact definition but I'm sure thats reasonably close.

DanWall

DanWall wrote: »

Dean09. I could never understand how a completely sealed system as the brakes are, could get moisture into the oil

Most brake fluids are hydroscopic, though the system is closed the brake reservoir etc isn't thick enough to prevent some absorption of moisture over extended time periods.

CiniO

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

How about whilst waiting for your car, doing a few very simple questions on the ROTR?

Heh nice idea.
And make it part of NCT, so if you fail your ROTR questions test, your car fails as well

Merch

CiniO wrote: »

Heh nice idea.
And make it part of NCT, so if you fail your ROTR questions test, your car fails as well

But in typical irish fashion, you would still be allowed to drive your car home :eek::)

Whats this? red means stop, you learn something new every day

dr.fuzzenstein

Merch wrote: »

I dont think it necessarily is a completely sealed system, there is a vent in there somewhere to allow a head of atmospheric pressure surely or there could be vapour locks??
Either way the fluid (oil?) is hygroscopic so absorbs moisture over time, which reduces the effectiveness of the fluid (moisture boils off under pressure/temp more easily), effectively turning a non compressible fluid into a compressible fluid, reducing the braking effectiveness. I'd need to look it up to get an exact definition but I'm sure thats reasonably close.

What happens is that the water in the brake fluid will turn to steam once your brakes get hot.
Steam is a gas and is compressible, so you hit the brake pedal and it will just travel all the way to the floor, but your brakes won't bite.
Happened to me in an old merc with 20 year old brake fluid.
Reached a corner, brake pedal hit the floor, but car not slowing down.
Should that ever happen, you will need to start pumping the brake pedal, compressing the steam till your brakes engage.
Exactly what I did, 2-3 pumps of the pedal, brakes where back.
When I bled the brakes, the brake fluid, instead of being a golden, honey color, had turned into nasty, brown goo.
And that's why brake fluid has to be renewed every few years.
This was especially important in Germany where I lived, since it was mountenous terrain, where you'd be working your brakes quite hard.

This would be impossible to test in the framework of the NCT, since the fluid in the reservior might look ok, but all the nastiness would be hidden inside the brakelines and the only way to find out would be to crack them open at the caliper and start pumping it out.

Merch

Originally Posted by Merch
I dont think it necessarily is a completely sealed system, there is a vent in there somewhere to allow a head of atmospheric pressure surely or there could be vapour locks??
Either way the fluid (oil?) is hygroscopic so absorbs moisture over time, which reduces the effectiveness of the fluid (moisture boils off under pressure/temp more easily), effectively turning a non compressible fluid into a compressible fluid, reducing the braking effectiveness. I'd need to look it up to get an exact definition but I'm sure thats reasonably close.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What happens is that the water in the brake fluid will turn to steam once your brakes get hot.
Steam is a gas and is compressible, so you hit the brake pedal and it will just travel all the way to the floor, but your brakes won't bite.
Happened to me in an old merc with 20 year old brake fluid.
Reached a corner, brake pedal hit the floor, but car not slowing down.
Should that ever happen, you will need to start pumping the brake pedal, compressing the steam till your brakes engage.
Exactly what I did, 2-3 pumps of the pedal, brakes where back.
When I bled the brakes, the brake fluid, instead of being a golden, honey color, had turned into nasty, brown goo.
And that's why brake fluid has to be renewed every few years.
This was especially important in Germany where I lived, since it was mountenous terrain, where you'd be working your brakes quite hard.

This would be impossible to test in the framework of the NCT, since the fluid in the reservior might look ok, but all the nastiness would be hidden inside the brakelines and the only way to find out would be to crack them open at the caliper and start pumping it out.

Thats what i said
I'm sure a sample from the reservoir would be representative of the brake fluid and may even contain the most moisture as it is nearest the point in contact with air.
Not 100% what the equipment that tests the fluid does (as in how the test is performed ie heats it?/measure of current across the fluid??) saw it done on top gear once when they were in germany, guy drew a sample from the reservoir and put it in a testing "device" and gave a readout of the result, seemed quick and simple enough.

Nissan doctor

"What's missing from the NCT?"

-Properly and universally calibrated equipment,
-Transparent and easily accessible appeals procedure
-An entirely vehicle condition based, rather then quota based, pass/fail certification system.

Jimdagym

CiniO wrote: »

Heh nice idea.
And make it part of NCT, so if you fail your ROTR questions test, your car fails as well

Well that's you walking home if they ask about indicators.

CiniO

Jimdagym wrote: »

Well that's you walking home if they ask about indicators.

Ha, ha, ha...

Maybe it would be me who is right, and you walking home ;P

Senna

What about even giving advisories;
"Your tyres maybe within the limit, but they are a very hard compound and we do not advise you to drive with them on especially with a mild wet spring.

"Maybe you should consider better tyres than Nankangs on your 350bhp EVO ( i have witnessed

Snow tyres will pass NCT during the summer on a normal car, again advise about error.

Your clutch is beginning to slip, please ask a garage for advice.

Front brake pads have 2000k left, 3000k on rear

I'm sure there are loads of things a car tester can spot while doing there inspection. Just because it passes right now, the inspector could advise on other things he seen.

Nissan doctor

With the likes of brake pads and clutch etc mentioned above. This would only lead to more blurring between the need to pass an NCT and the need for proper servicing.

The above are vehicle maintenance/servicing items, not NCT concerns.

challengemaster

Senna wrote: »

What about even giving advisories;
"Your tyres maybe within the limit, but they are a very hard compound and we do not advise you to drive with them on especially with a mild wet spring.

"Maybe you should consider better tyres than Nankangs on your 350bhp EVO ( i have witnessed

Snow tyres will pass NCT during the summer on a normal car, again advise about error.

Your clutch is beginning to slip, please ask a garage for advice.

Front brake pads have 2000k left, 3000k on rear

I'm sure there are loads of things a car tester can spot while doing there inspection. Just because it passes right now, the inspector could advise on other things he seen.

Problem is, advice can lead to legal issues for Applus if they did start doing this. Having a fact sheet with actual test results and a yes/no system does not give someone anything which can be interpreted in such a way that it will cause them harm.

Saying to someone they have 3000k left on the brake pads, and they go off and wear them down within a week and keep thinking their brakes are fine until they end up in a wall will not end well for the apparently qualified person who said that.

Senna

challengemaster wrote: »

Problem is, advice can lead to legal issues for Applus if they did start doing this. Having a fact sheet with actual test results and a yes/no system does not give someone anything which can be interpreted in such a way that it will cause them harm.

Saying to someone they have 3000k left on the brake pads, and they go off and wear them down within a week and keep thinking their brakes are fine until they end up in a wall will not end well for the apparently qualified person who said that.

I agree, but with the one year test for older cars, i could see most of these people doing nothing to their cars till the next test is due.
Irish people in general are terrible at servicing cars. Most times the car will get a service next time something breaks and it has to go into the garage anyway.
The amount of cars you hear driving around with pads worn down to the metal, and i doubt they're all on the way to the garage at that moment.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

With the likes of brake pads and clutch etc mentioned above. This would only lead to more blurring between the need to pass an NCT and the need for proper servicing.

The above are vehicle maintenance/servicing items, not NCT concerns.

I agree, but a lot of people say, "sure it passed the NCT only 6 months ago, it wouldn't need anything this soon"
If an NCT tester seen something which if it was on his own car, he act on straight way or if its needed action soon. It would be no harm of them to add those comments as they are returning the sheet to the customer. But yes vagueness is a problem.

Nissan doctor

Senna wrote: »

I agree, but a lot of people say, "sure it passed the NCT only 6 months ago, it wouldn't need anything this soon"
If an NCT tester seen something which if it was on his own car, he act on straight way or if its needed action soon. It would be no harm of them to add those comments as they are returning the sheet to the customer.

But to be blunt, that's people's own ignorance and not the fault or responsibility of the NCT.

By that line of thought, the NCT should check your air filter or service sticker/book and if your car is nearly due a service, it should be noted on the sheet?

IMO its solely the drivers responsibility to keep your car in a safe and roadworthy condition. The only function of the NCT is to check that you are doing so.

Cedrus

DanWall wrote: »

Dean09. I could never understand how a completely sealed system as the brakes are, could get moisture into the oil

Thing is, brakes are not a completely sealed system, over a long period seals and hoses will start to fail, connectors get loose, hard braking on a wet road and power washers will allow tiny amounts of water in at the calliper pistons. It is a pressurised system so there will never be a lot of water getting in (unless there is a catastrophic failure), but the fractional amounts build up over the years if the fluid is not changed.

Also, the brake fluid itself denatures over time and use, it can then separate into sludge, thick liquid and thin liquid, the more liquid part might not actually be water, but it sure as hell isn't brake fluid.

yourpics

It would be good if they didn't rev the guts out of diesels!

Also the test should last 2 years for all cars regardless of age.

homer90

Match engines to whats on the log book.

Cut out the 2.0 but 1.4 tax / on the log book Sh1T€.........

Poulgorm

The NCT is a snapshot of some aspects of your car's condition, at the time of the test.

It is not meant to predict the condition of your car at some time in the future. That is why the NCT has to be done every 2 years (and every year, if your car is > 20 years old).

biko

Nissan doctor wrote: »

"-An entirely vehicle condition based, rather then quota based, pass/fail certification system.

Interesting, can you link me to this? I wasn't aware a quota system was in place.

Nissan doctor

biko wrote: »

Interesting, can you link me to this? I wasn't aware a quota system was in place.

I don't have a link but I currently work with an ex NCT guy.

They have monthly pass/fail % figures they have to stay within. This inevitably leads to cars being passed/failed towards the end of the month in order to meet % targets rather then soley on actual condition to keep within targets.

LLU

Dean09 wrote: »

They should actually test brake fluid rather than just checking the level. It would only take an extra couple of minutes and moisture in brake fluid could potentially be lethal.

I actually did fail once for having 'contaminated brake fluid'. I don't know how they established that, I'm guessing they just based it on the colour. The car was quite old and I didnt know the history of its brake fluid so I was happy enough to have this pointed out.

Cosmo K

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I don't have a link but I currently work with an ex NCT guy.

They have monthly pass/fail % figures they have to stay within. This inevitably leads to cars being passed/failed towards the end of the month in order to meet % targets rather then soley on actual condition to keep within targets.

I'm working ten years with NCTS, and I can assure you, what your guy is saying, is complete and utter BS!

There is no definitely no quoata, we have to achieve! Have you any idea, how many unannounced inspections the AA does every month?

I really appreciate, that you know a lot about a cars, but there is definitely no quota system within the NCT.

Things I would change;

As already mentioned, brake fluid. Hazard light switches, its amazing how many cars have no working hazards. Trailer plugs, a lot of trailer plugs are not wired properly or not wired at all. Start testing trailers, just basic stuff, lights and tyres for a start.

Have to go back to work, till then....

zapata

Annual Test on all cars regardles of age.
No more price increases when making profit (Aplus currently in profit)

Nissan doctor

Cosmo K wrote: »

I'm working ten years with NCTS, and I can assure you, what your guy is saying, is complete and utter BS!

There is no definitely no quoata, we have to achieve! Have you any idea, how many unannounced inspections the AA does every month?

I really appreciate, that you know a lot about a cars, but there is definitely no quota system within the NCT.

Things I would change;

As already mentioned, brake fluid. Hazard light switches, its amazing how many cars have no working hazards. Trailer plugs, a lot of trailer plugs are not wired properly or not wired at all. Start testing trailers, just basic stuff, lights and tyres for a start.

Have to go back to work, till then....

He was a supervisor in one of the centers(can't remember which one).

I'll get the exact details of what he was talking about tomorrow.

mb1725

Test motorbikes!

El Guapo!

LLU wrote: »

I actually did fail once for having 'contaminated brake fluid'. I don't know how they established that, I'm guessing they just based it on the colour. The car was quite old and I didnt know the history of its brake fluid so I was happy enough to have this pointed out.

Yeah the fluid was probably manky so that's how they noticed it. Other than that they don't do any test on it.

Brake fliud should be changed generally every 2 years but it's often something thats overlooked during routine servicing.

Syllabus

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I don't have a link but I currently work with an ex NCT guy.

They have monthly pass/fail % figures they have to stay within. This inevitably leads to cars being passed/failed towards the end of the month in order to meet % targets rather then soley on actual condition to keep within targets.

i mentioned this in a diff thread regarding headlight alignment fails and was basically told by one poster that any faith or respect they had held in me before was gone by the wayside as they believed i was spoofing to cover my arse

Nissan doctor

Syllabus wrote: »

i mentioned this in a diff thread regarding headlight alignment fails and was basically told by one poster that any faith or respect they had held in me before was gone by the wayside as they believed i was spoofing to cover my arse

I'll say no more until I get the exact info.



As another point, we are told that the NCT is all about safety, not making money. So why then is the 1 year test for cars over ten years old the same price as the 2 year test for cars under?

The 1 year test should be half the price of the 2 year test. That way people might be more assured that its about more regular checking of the safety of older cars, as opposed to making more money off older cars!:rolleyes:

dr.fuzzenstein

Dean09 wrote: »

Yeah the fluid was probably manky so that's how they noticed it. Other than that they don't do any test on it.

Brake fliud should be changed generally every 2 years but it's often something thats overlooked during routine servicing.

Things that never get changed:
Brake fluid, coolant, gear box oil, diff oil, pollen filter, aircon gas and power steering fluid amongst others.
It's like Irish garages have a fear and loathing when it comes to changing these things.
Every garage I ever asked to do any of the above gave the same reply. Never needs changing. They just want to do oil, oil filter, done, that'll be several hundred Euro please.
Am I glad I do my own servicing.
Now, you can't ask the NCT to check if these things get changed regularly (wouldn't be possible to know when it was changed), but maybe people should be told that all these fluids do need to be looked at/changed every now and then.

yourpics

Nissan doctor wrote: »

As another point, we are told that the NCT is all about safety, not making money. So why then is the 1 year test for cars over ten years old the same price as the 2 year test for cars under?

The 1 year test should be half the price of the 2 year test. That way people might be more assured that its about more regular checking of the safety of older cars, as opposed to making more money off older cars!:rolleyes:

Excellent point. They say that annual testing for cars 10 years or older is due to 46% of serious accidents involving cars 10 years or older. But this also means that the majority of accidents (54%) are caused by cars 10 years or newer. Therefore newer cars should be subject to annual testing. This proves it is a revenue generating exercise and not logical thinking.

dr.fuzzenstein

yourpics wrote: »

Excellent point. They say that annual testing for cars 10 years or older is due to 46% of serious accidents involving cars 10 years or older. But this also means that the majority of accidents (54%) are caused by cars 10 years or newer. Therefore newer cars should be subject to annual testing. This proves it is a revenue generating exercise and not logical thinking.

I wonder how that correlates to the age of the driver, since newly qualified and (mostly) younger drivers tend to buy old bangers?
Actual mechanical failure does not contribute in a massive way to accidents, will need to dig this out, but too late right now.
It's the same scam as giving 5 points for not having an NCT.
A car should have an NCT, but this is silly.

Cedrus

yourpics wrote: »

Excellent point. They say that annual testing for cars 10 years or older is due to 46% of serious accidents involving cars 10 years or older. But this also means that the majority of accidents (54%) are caused by cars 10 years or newer. Therefore newer cars should be subject to annual testing. This proves it is a revenue generating exercise and not logical thinking.

Logical thinking would include an adjustment to make allowance for the smaller number of cars over ten years old (Average was 7.4 years last year according to Cartell). Scrappages (Planned and Accidental) mean that a number of cars much smaller than half are involved in nearly half of the accidents, therefore posing a higher risk.

CiniO

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I'll say no more until I get the exact info.



As another point, we are told that the NCT is all about safety, not making money. So why then is the 1 year test for cars over ten years old the same price as the 2 year test for cars under?

The 1 year test should be half the price of the 2 year test. That way people might be more assured that its about more regular checking of the safety of older cars, as opposed to making more money off older cars!:rolleyes:

My understanding would be that this €55 is just a cost of doing the test, so no matter how often you are forced to do it, you must pay it, to cover expanses of test centre.

However we all know that's far from being true.

Nissan doctor

Cosmo K wrote: »

I'm working ten years with NCTS, and I can assure you, what your guy is saying, is complete and utter BS!

There is no definitely no quoata, we have to achieve! Have you any idea, how many unannounced inspections the AA does every month?

I really appreciate, that you know a lot about a cars, but there is definitely no quota system within the NCT.

Things I would change;

As already mentioned, brake fluid. Hazard light switches, its amazing how many cars have no working hazards. Trailer plugs, a lot of trailer plugs are not wired properly or not wired at all. Start testing trailers, just basic stuff, lights and tyres for a start.

Have to go back to work, till then....

I mentioned your post to the guy today, he said simply, ask the poster why then if a NCTS tester is passing too many cars or failing too many cars they a called into the managment office to explain their figures?

This could only lead to testers watching how many cars they pass/fail based on not igniting the supisions of managment rather then soley on condition.

Chimaera

Proper emissions testing for diesel cars would be good. A smoke test is a very crude measurement of an engine's performance. CO, CO2 and HC would give a much better indication of how an engine is running.

Regarding the brake fluid thing: It's extremely difficult to properly seal a system agains hygroscopic materials. I work with such materials in my research and I've seen moisture get pulled in past 2 tightly closed screw caps over a period of a few months. It's not unreasonable that over a few years moisture would get into the brakes on a car.

I changed the brake fluid in my car over the weekend, about 3 years since the last change and there was a small but noticable improvement in braking afterwards. Better pedal feel and better initial bite on the brakes.

Cosmo K

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I mentioned your post to the guy today, he said simply, ask the poster why then if a NCTS tester is passing too many cars or failing too many cars they a called into the managment office to explain their figures?

This could only lead to testers watching how many cars they pass/fail based on not igniting the supisions of managment rather then soley on condition.[/QUOTE
]

And thats your so called quota? One could simply call it quality control. Look, I'm not saying that the NCT is a 100% perfect system, there is definitely room for improvement. And I agree with a lot that has been said here, annual tests for all cars, regardless of age, for example.

I'm a Supervisor for the last 5 years, and I never ever, told one of my guys....listen, your numbers are a bit low, you gotta fail a few more cars...... I don't know, when your source worked for the NCT (why did he leave, or was he fired?), but what he is saying simply isn't the case.

Not s week goes by nowadays without an unannounced audit by either the AA or one of our internal auditors. And trust me, they are very thorough, the internal auditors and the guys from the AA.

Any more questions about the NCT, just ask me.....

Nissan doctor

He gave me more to reply with but TBH, I'm not arsed relaying an arguement between you an him, I couldn't care less if there is a quota(actual or implied) or not.

As for why he left. He said it was a handy job with decent money, but felt he was wasting his time spent in collage and wanted to get back into actually repairing cars.

My only experience is spending years seeing so many cars fail the NCT on the most far fetched interpretations of the NCT manual while other pass with glaringly obvious faults.