The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

bmaxi

mikemac1 wrote: »

No animosity against our older generation using it

But you feel like a sucker paying every day when the local druggies have passes and somehow managed to qualify for disability

If the scheme was just for pensioners there would be a lot less people talking about it.

But it's a lot wider then that and there are eight bullet points here for it
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html#l1f4da

Yet people post here about pensioners as if they are the only ones who qualify

Already covered those aspects earlier in the thread. The post count against older people availing of it is at least equal and perhaps larger than that against druggies etc.
Maybe, when we consider removing free travel, we should start with employees of CIE.

trellheim

Sorry, for clarity : I am completely in favour of the Free travel scheme, for OAPs and some deserving cases ( and I'm OK with what DSFA consider deserving cases )

My point was being amazed that there was no statutory basis , either in Act of the Oireachtas form, or Statutory instrument for it. There must be a vote subhead for it though, somewhere.

PS : found it, A.36 in revised estimates,

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf
page 186
77 million this year, up from 75.5 last year.

foggy_lad

This reply on another thread sums up what most people will be thinking about the free travel scheme as there are a lot of people with elderly relatives who use their pass regularly or disabled relatives and friends who could not have their current normal standard of living without their free travel pass.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Originally Posted by mickydoomsux
And you expect people not to have a problem with that?

Times are tough for everyone and yet you think that it is ok to give certain people completely free, unlimited use, nationwide travel so that they can use it for their leisure and socialising?

How is that fair to fare paying customers?

I have no problem with it as i know some people who have free travel, some elderly and some disabled and they are not the sort of wasters that many people on Commuting & Transport believe they are.

For someone with a disability or mobility impairment living in Carlow or Waterford or any large town a trip to Dublin can cost a lot more than the normal person has to pay, There is usually €12-€20 or more to be paid for a taxi to and from the bus or train in the town they live and possibly more taxis in Dublin if going to a hospital appointment. This is usually more than most people pay for their normal return fare to Dublin and this cost can greatly increase if the person lives in a rural setting.

In reality for many free travel pass holders it barely allows them to travel at the same cost as everyone else.

Losty Dublin

bmaxi wrote: »

Already covered those aspects earlier in the thread. The post count against older people availing of it is at least equal and perhaps larger than that against druggies etc.
Maybe, when we consider removing free travel, we should start with employees of CIE.

CIE staff just get free travel on the part of the company for which they work for; they don't get it wholesale throughout the company. Some staff may be issued with duty passes; these allow them onto buses and trains in line with their duties (eg to get to and from meetings or workplaces) but they are only given to those who need it on a case by case basis.

munchkin_utd

trellheim wrote: »

PS : found it, A.36 in revised estimates,

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf
page 186
77 million this year, up from 75.5 last year.

Still at 110euro a year per head for the 700,000 getting it, the free travel is actualy not the dearest

If I could get year long unlimited intermodal and cross provider transport for 110 euro I'd snap it up straight away!

EDIT:
just for comparison - for CIE services(no luas, private busses etc) a yearly ticket for a working taxpaying commuter costs €4900 Euro.
If CIE were to bill the government for this amount, free travel would cost 3.43 BILLION euro a year!
Maybe the government should quit whilst they are ahead as 77million is a bargain for what they are getting for the pensioners et al.

bmaxi

Losty Dublin wrote: »

CIE staff just get free travel on the part of the company for which they work for; they don't get it wholesale throughout the company. Some staff may be issued with duty passes; these allow them onto buses and trains in line with their duties (eg to get to and from meetings or workplaces) but they are only given to those who need it on a case by case basis.

That may be the letter of the law but in my experience it isn't the practice. If it is, then please explain how my Dublin Bus driver neighbour can travel to Dublin for free on Bus Eireann? In my time with Dublin City Services, nobody with a CIE employee pass was ever charged a fare, employees of DCS even travelled with their families for free. The pass was supposedly for travel to and from work but a blind eye was turned by all and sundry, I'd be surprised if anything has changed. Anyway, why should CIE employees have free travel to and from work at the expense of the taxpayer?

munchkin_utd

bmaxi wrote: »

<snip>Anyway, why should CIE employees have free travel to and from work at the expense of the taxpayer?

do they pay benefit in kind like any other employee would for such a perk?

Losty Dublin

bmaxi wrote: »

That may be the letter of the law but in my experience it isn't the practice. If it is, then please explain how my Dublin Bus driver neighbour can travel to Dublin for free on Bus Eireann? In my time with Dublin City Services, nobody with a CIE employee pass was ever charged a fare, employees of DCS even travelled with their families for free. The pass was supposedly for travel to and from work but a blind eye was turned by all and sundry, I'd be surprised if anything has changed. Anyway, why should CIE employees have free travel to and from work at the expense of the taxpayer?

Why don't you ask him yourself? Maybe he has a duty pass, you're the one who knows him, not me What I know is that a clerical friend in DB has no free rail travel while a few friends in Irish Rail have no bus concession.

I suppose their having free travel is the same how Luas staff have free travel, barmen get a couple of free drinks, cinema staff seeing films, cafe staff eating for free, retail staff getting discounted shopping etc etc; it's a perk of their job and fair play to those who get a perk or two.

AlekSmart

trellheim wrote: »

Sorry, for clarity : I am completely in favour of the Free travel scheme, for OAPs and some deserving cases ( and I'm OK with what DSFA consider deserving cases )

My point was being amazed that there was no statutory basis , either in Act of the Oireachtas form, or Statutory instrument for it. There must be a vote subhead for it though, somewhere.

PS : found it, A.36 in revised estimates,

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf
page 186
77 million this year, up from 75.5 last year.

Some interesting supplementary stuff in this little piece too.....

http://www.coe.int/t/dGHl/monitoring/Socialcharter/Complaints/CC42CaseDoc4_en.pdf

Page 23 of Annex A ...has a small piece concerning the non-statutory nature of the Free Travel Scheme.

Sec 6 on Page 31 also appears to reference the somewhat ad-hoc nature of the scheme.

The extent of "Free-Travel Retention" arrangements,whereby people being switched to differing DSP schemes retain the Free-Travel entitlement,is also worth noting,as it gives the lie to the "Pensioners Only" angle which some adopt.

The reality is that the original "OAP Free-Travel Scheme" was introduced during a period of EEc mandated "Flight from the Land".
This was a period when we were told the traditional Irish small-holding was unsustainable and the young country folk would need to travel away for work,leaving an increasingly ageing population somewhat isolated in the "Home-Place".

It was also an era of CENtralization rather than DEcentralization,during which,allowing the rural elderly to have free-access to public transport was,and remains still,a very desireable and worthwhile arrangement.

However,all that has happened since the original Free-Travel introduction has been an ever increasing mutation of entitlement to an extent which now threatens the very existance of the entire scheme.

If the Free-Travel Scheme is not brought under some form of realistic control the real risk is of it collapsing entirely....which would really be a disaster for Ireland.

bmaxi

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Why don't you ask him yourself? Maybe he has a duty pass, you're the one who knows him, not me What I know is that a clerical friend in DB has no free rail travel while a few friends in Irish Rail have no bus concession.

I suppose their having free travel is the same how Luas staff have free travel, barmen get a couple of free drinks, cinema staff seeing films, cafe staff eating for free, retail staff getting discounted shopping etc etc; it's a perk of their job and fair play to those who get a perk or two.

What perks private companies provide for their employees is entirely a matter for them.

Hilly Bill

Have we gone a nation of begrudgers?

dowlingm

we were always a nation of begrudgers. If I ever forget I just read some John B Keane to remind me.

I think what we're seeing now is a realisation that social partnership consisted in some parts of an assumption that social spending could track peak government income with no safeguards for the future. Back in the early 00s if the government ever faltered in its will to spend IBEC, ICTU and the opposition parties stood ready to stiffen their resolve to spend more.

These days, it's like that Martyn Turner cartoon with the placards saying "cut somewhere else", "tax someone else".

The thing that makes the free travel scheme tricky is that it is a de facto cash transfer to DB, BE, IE. If withdrawn, some costs will fall as service reduces to paying customers but in respect of drivers and equipment there will be significant overcapacity. Replacing it with a block grant would almost certainly have State Aid problems. If tweaked by reducing the categories eligible the opposition and the backbench of government will plead the case of their clientele.

AlekSmart

dowlingm wrote: »

we were always a nation of begrudgers. If I ever forget I just read some John B Keane to remind me.

I think what we're seeing now is a realisation that social partnership consisted in some parts of an assumption that social spending could track peak government income with no safeguards for the future. Back in the early 00s if the government ever faltered in its will to spend IBEC, ICTU and the opposition parties stood ready to stiffen their resolve to spend more.

These days, it's like that Martyn Turner cartoon with the placards saying "cut somewhere else", "tax someone else".

The thing that makes the free travel scheme tricky is that it is a de facto cash transfer to DB, BE, IE. If withdrawn, some costs will fall as service reduces to paying customers but in respect of drivers and equipment there will be significant overcapacity. Replacing it with a block grant would almost certainly have State Aid problems. If tweaked by reducing the categories eligible the opposition and the backbench of government will plead the case of their clientele.

Direct Hit Dowlingm !

Despite grumblings that my views may be anti OAP (A classification I am RAPIDLY approaching :eek:),what I advocate is the placing of the current Free-Travel non-system onto a sound sustainable footing.

If this entails the Irish Government having to breach some EU State Aid guidelines,then so be it.

My contention is that the original 1960's ethos of the OAP Free Travel Scheme was specifically to allow Ireland and it's citizens to modify their lifestyles to suit the then EEC's demands.

The flight from the land,as it was called in the immediate aftermath of our joining the EEC would have otherwise resulted in our older people becoming totally isolated in a country which,at that time,had NO motorway network,a far from complete Electricity grid and 3 year waiting lists for a domestic telephone line.

I would strongly argue with any stroppy Brussels Bureaucrat,that Ireland's Free Travel Scheme was,dei-facto an EEC-EU requirement,which,for a significant number of our populace is still required and thus should be funded to allow it's continuance.

However in order to put this view forward,the Authorities need to at the very least display that they have a reasonable degree of control over the systems administration,which currently they cannot do.

foggy_lad

All the Authorities have to do is get tough on all users and change the rules to make it obligatory for pass holders to possess and produce a passport or Gardai age card each and every time they use their pass. Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

munchkin_utd

foggy_lad wrote: »

All the Authorities have to do is get tough on all users and change the rules to make it obligatory for pass holders to possess and produce a passport or Gardai age card each and every time they use their pass. Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

but the other question is,
how can unlimited free travel for a year cost only 110Euro per head?

IF transport is that cheap to provide, then why cant the government go and provide the same great deal for working people, abeit they just pay the 110 rather than get it for free.

9Euro a month for your commute, and all the travel you can fit in at the weekend, nationwide.

All those households struggling to keep a second car on the road simply for the commute would be relieved greatly by such a deal.

foggy_lad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

but the other question is,
how can unlimited free travel for a year cost only 110Euro per head?

IF transport is that cheap to provide, then why cant the government go and provide the same great deal for working people, abeit they just pay the 110 rather than get it for free.

9Euro a month for your commute, and all the travel you can fit in at the weekend, nationwide.

All those households struggling to keep a second car on the road simply for the commute would be relieved greatly by such a deal.

The trains and buses are on the roads anyway with staff employed so allowing pass holders to travel costs very little.

The added cost of having to pay redundancy to thousands of staff as services are curtailed and cancelled as well as the increased social welfare bill when all the redundant staff hit the Dole office, not to mention the loss of revenue when some services are reduced or cancelled, all these costs must be taken into the equation!

TheChrisD

foggy_lad wrote: »

All the Authorities have to do is get tough on all users and change the rules to make it obligatory for pass holders to possess and produce a passport or Gardai age card each and every time they use their pass.

I doubt anyone would want to carry around their passport just to use normal public transport. In all seriousness though, what's wrong with the ID card you have to get to use the FTP on Dublin Bus? They could just make that requirement apply to everyone, there problem sorted.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

This though brings up the issue of how old/worn the pass has to be before it must be replaced. I've had mine four years now, the plastic sleeve is falling completely apart, but the actual paper pass itself is completely fine. Also don't see why a replacement couldn't just be sent back to the recipient in the post, assuming the ID card is still usable.

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Old and worn passes must be confiscated and destroyed and replaced quickly but only directly to the recipient at their local social welfare office on production of the passport and birth certificate.

Foggy - if you were an SW passholder who had his pass confiscated by a CIE employee for condition when you were hours from your house, never mind the Social...

WE WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT.

foggy_lad

TheChrisD wrote: »

I doubt anyone would want to carry around their passport just to use normal public transport. In all seriousness though, what's wrong with the ID card you have to get to use the FTP on Dublin Bus? They could just make that requirement apply to everyone, there problem sorted.


This though brings up the issue of how old/worn the pass has to be before it must be replaced. I've had mine four years now, the plastic sleeve is falling completely apart, but the actual paper pass itself is completely fine. Also don't see why a replacement couldn't just be sent back to the recipient in the post, assuming the ID card is still usable.

If you have a pass and want another one for your mate you just report yours as being lost and get a replacement sent out, then you give it to your mate with a copy of your birth certificate and a utility bill and they can go off into Dublin Bus and get a photopass with your name and their photo on it! the system is not designed to stamp out fraud as it does not require photo id!

If the pass is not readable and name and other details are not legible it is not valid any more.

Requiring it be collected in person at your local social welfare office with photo id ensures it is not being used by the son/daughter/niece/nephew etc of the named user who might be deceased.

dowlingm wrote: »

Foggy - if you were an SW passholder who had his pass confiscated by a CIE employee for condition when you were hours from your house, never mind the Social...

WE WOULD NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT.

Hopefully I would never complain about something that was my own fault:D

AlekSmart

Some interesting stats on the Free Travel Scheme appear at the tail-end of the DSP's reprise of statistics for 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/ResearchSurveysAndStatistics/Documents/2010stats.pdf

At long-last it's now possible to lay that old ghost about the Free Travel Scheme being the Old Age Pension Pass.....

Total number of persons in respect of whom Free Travel Passes have been issued....699,164

Total number of Contributory,Non Contributory and Transition Pension holders covered by the scheme...249,653

Equally interesting is the classification of "Others" under which 180,462 lucky individuals travel free gratis within the State.

Of course it could also be a case of Lies,Damn Lies,and then....statistics...;)

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Some interesting stats on the Free Travel Scheme appear at the tail-end of the DSP's reprise of statistics for 2010.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/ResearchSurveysAndStatistics/Documents/2010stats.pdf

At long-last it's now possible to lay that old ghost about the Free Travel Scheme being the Old Age Pension Pass.....

Total number of persons in respect of whom Free Travel Passes have been issued....699,164

Total number of Contributory,Non Contributory and Transition Pension holders covered by the scheme...249,653

Equally interesting is the classification of "Others" under which 180,462 lucky individuals travel free gratis within the State.

Of course it could also be a case of Lies,Damn Lies,and then....statistics...;)

The nunmber of others is possibly bloated by the numbers of parents of "disabled" children with adhd etc who are entitled to free travel because their children are entitled to it and are too young to travel alone? I am only guessing but maybe Others is their way of counting the extra person allowed travel with those issued with Companion passes?

It is highly unusual that by far the highest number of users is just classified as "others"!

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is highly unusual that by far the highest number of users is just classified as "others"!

Probably the best definition of the entire scheme I've yet encountered....."Highly Unusual".

+100% Foggy_Lad

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Probably the best definition of the entire scheme I've yet encountered....."Highly Unusual".

+100% Foggy_Lad

I have given some very easy ways in which the whole fraudulant element can be eliminated once and forever but for some reason people would rather "bitch and moan" about perceived levels of fraud than fight to do anything to stamp it out.

A few simple changes like firstly make it a rule and the most important rule that anyone presenting a travel pass also present at the same time a Passport or Gardai Age Card as proof that they are the person entitled to travel on the pass. OAP's could be issued the age card free of charge to keep the age action people happy.

I have had major issues with Irish Rail staff asking and insisting on Photo id from people with free travel passes as it is not a requirement unless the pass holder is resident in certain city locations, so they are not entitled to look for photo id but if it was made a rule and requirement then I would be more than happy to see passes not honoured or confiscated and people not allowed travel for not adhering to the rules.

The companion pass should be abolished! also remove the Spousal entitlement except in the case of OAP's.

Next rule is that the pass must be legible and any which are not should be confiscated and destroyed and replacements issued to the persons entitled on production of their photo id in their local social welfare office or Post office, I would insist on all passes being delivered or handed out to people in this manner to avoid passes being stolen or interfered with in the post.

Next, those found using a pass belonging to someone else(relative, neighbour, dead uncle etc) should be jailed and prohibited from claiming any social payment for a period of at least 5 years.

Change the "highly unusual" aspect to highly policed and controlled and it won't require millions to implement!

dublinbusdude

I have a disability and have Free Travel, but I don't have "The Companion Pass" no more as on current pass I have dont have it since 2006....I used to have a "The Companion Pass" from 2003 to 2006, then I got a new one in 2006 which didnt have "The Companion Pass" .... I wish they could change it to card to an all in one card e.g. Free Travel, Medcial Card, Social Welfare payment (if you are on one if its not going into a Bank Account) and photo ID card with your details on it like PPS Number, Medcial Card number, your GP and hospital details (if any)...

RobbingBandit

I have a pass which is damaged myself, I always keep documentation explaining the reasons why I qualify for it on my person and have my ppsn card for proof of ID,Dublin Bus should but don't key in a persons ppsn,1 out of every 10 times Irish Rail do key in my number when I get a ticket.

There should be a leap card system in place by now but we all know they have screwed up that system for normal usage already and it would be just as susceptible to fraud as the paper travel cards are.

AlekSmart

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I have a pass which is damaged myself, I always keep documentation explaining the reasons why I qualify for it on my person and have my ppsn card for proof of ID,Dublin Bus should but don't key in a persons ppsn,1 out of every 10 times Irish Rail do key in my number when I get a ticket.

Why don't you just get your damaged pass replaced RB ?

If the damage renders the Freee Pass illegible,then it is invalid and may well be taken up by some zealous Public Transport Employee (Cough !! .....Foggy_Lad to the nearest red telephone ).

If you call to your local DSP office they'll give you a Temporary Free Travel Document whilst your new Corn-Flakes Box is printed.

Mind you,the new DSP chipped card is imminent,although currently the Government's main focus is on agreeing a format for the issuing of the new Credit-Card Driving licence.

The RSA,as the responsible agency,appear to have decided that for a first-issue of a new format card Licence,the holder will be required to physically present themselves at a specific location with some form of proof of identity.

The form of proof is sure to ignite a few Liberal bangers,as indications are that a Fingerprint or Iris recognition based format is under active consideration...:eek:

The "Prime-Time Investigates" exposé on the Driving Licence/Free Travel Pass/PPSN Card forgery industry opened a truly rancid can of worms,hence the level of interest now being displayed in new smart-technology based solutions rather than the oul ESB bill....;)

foggy_lad

The liberals will accept nothing less than a birth cert being accepted as proof of identity for your new driving licence!

Victor

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have had major issues with Irish Rail staff asking and insisting on Photo id

Anyone can ask anything, demanding is another matter.

The companion pass should be abolished!

Some people are in genuine need of a companion for longer trips.

AlekSmart wrote: »

If you call to your local DSP office they'll give you a Temporary Free Travel Document whilst your new Corn-Flakes Box is printed.

You might explain "Corn-Flakes Box" to the non-regulars.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

You might explain "Corn-Flakes Box" to the non-regulars.

it's a reference to the top class quality materials they use to make the card

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

Anyone can ask anything, demanding is another matter.

I witnessed asking first then demanding and insisting that no ticket would be issued without photo identification to verify the person was entitled to the travel pass, also a railway revenue protection agent also got involved and iirc exceeded his authority by also insisting that no ticket would be issued but also the pass would be confiscated if no photo I'd was provided. Real bullying tactics against a guy with downs syndrome or some similar disability.

Some people are in genuine need of a companion for longer trips.
You might explain "Corn-Flakes Box" to the non-regulars.

couldn't a career or home help or other such person be arranged for those who require a companion and they could be given a pass allowing travel when accompanying another pass holder?

And the cornflakes box is the preferred material for printing the pass onto for those selling copies in their local pub at €50 a pop or a bit more if you want the photopass card with it:D