How poorly is James McCarthy being treated by Trap?

darkman2

On the bench for 90 minutes again this week v Czech Republic. Actually made me a little angry especially as Coleman gets the same treatment. He is by far our best midfield prospect right now on the bench. I was actually thinking, considering the number of minutes McCarthy has played in the premier league this season is probably greater then Andrews and Whelan combined, you could not blame this guy for walking out on the squad completely. Surely he was worth at least 30 minutes in the game And if it was frustrating for fans imagine how he feels.


I just can't understand it. And what if Whelan or Andrews or Gibson gets injured? He has a pickle then.

tvercetti

darkman2 wrote: »

And what if Whelan or Andrews or Gibson gets injured? He has a pickle then.

We can build around the mighty Paul Green then.

That_Guy

EDIT: Apologies mate, I thought you said Coleman.

I blame alcohol. :pac:

darkman2

That_Guy wrote: »

Coleman this season:

13 games, 0 assists, 0 goals, 12 shots.

Yes, how dare Trap ommit such an in form midfielder. :rolleyes:

Erm injury?

How do you square the circle with McCarthy? He should have got game time on Wednesday.

Dempsey

McCarthy hasnt been playing well for Wigan. I dont see much in his work off the ball, his defensive work and desire to win back the ball for the team and thats the crucial aspect of Traps system, like it or loathe it. I dont think Trap is treating him badly at all considering what he's looking for in a central midfielder.

Traps plan for all squad players is poor so I would bother singling out McCarthy for being poorly treated.

Rhys Essien

Dempsey wrote: »

McCarthy hasnt been playing well for Wigan. I dont see much in his work off the ball, his defensive work and desire to win back the ball for the team and thats the crucial aspect of Traps system, like it or loathe it. I dont think Trap is treating him badly at all considering what he's looking for in a central midfielder.

Traps plan for all squad players is poor so I would bother singling out McCarthy for being poorly treated.

Get real,He put on Green who he only called up last minute and was out for a year or whatever while McCarthy has been warming the Ireland bench for months.

Truely bonkers is what I say.

Dempsey

McClean was only called up at the last minute aswell and he got gametime. As I said Traps plan for squad players is poor but to say that McCarthy has meritted gametime over others is a laugh. Warming the bench doesnt merit a cap.

upandcumming

Fuck McClean. All the hype and talk about him, you'd swear Ronaldo or Messi had declared. A disgust. That was the only thing that Sky Sports talked about the other night. It'd be a different story if McClean was still with Derry, doing what he is doing now.

darkman2

Dempsey wrote: »

McClean was only called up at the last minute aswell and he got gametime. As I said Traps plan for squad players is poor but to say that McCarthy has meritted gametime over others is a laugh. Warming the bench doesnt merit a cap.

Doesn't merit a cap!? And paul green does? That is complete bollix tbh. McCarthy should have been on that pitch at some stage. He is playing week in week out in the premier league. He is in a very poor wigan side. Harsh to say he does not perform when you look at the squad around him.

Dempsey

McClean is a physically stronger and faster player than what he was at Derry. Dont anyone delude themselves otherwise.

Dempsey

darkman2 wrote: »

Doesn't merit a cap!? And paul green does? That is complete bollix tbh. McCarthy should have been on that pitch at some stage. He is playing week in week out in the premier league. He is in a very poor wigan side. Harsh to say he does not perform when you look at the squad around him.

I said Green ticks more boxes for the system Trap plays, like it or loathe it, and I'll stand by that statement.

So we should ignore how he actually plays just because he plays in the EPL? Scott Parker played in a poor West Ham side last season and he still showed that he is a good player. Good players will stand out in poor teams, McCarthy doesnt. 1 assist all season in the EPL, surely his hyped passing ability should have produced more, even for Wigan?

James McCarthy is fast becoming the new Andy Reid, his performances for Ireland dont merit this level of fanboyism.

darkman2

Midfielders don't live on assists. Wingers do. McCarthy plays very well in midfield and is a great passer of the ball. He is technically superior to Andrews and Whelan. And yet you don't think he should have been on that pitch at all on Wednesday?

PS McCarthy is no Andy Reid. Muppet thing to say.

its_phil

upandcumming wrote: »

It'd be a different story if McClean was still with Derry, doing what he is doing now.

Your right because he'd be playing against inferior opposition compared to the players in the Premier League.

Dempsey

darkman2 wrote: »

Midfielders don't live on assists. Wingers do. McCarthy plays very well in midfield and is a great passer of the ball. He is technically superior to Andrews and Whelan. And yet you don't think he should have been on that pitch at all on Wednesday?

PS McCarthy is no Andy Reid. Muppet thing to say.

Technical ability isnt the main criteria for selection and you know it. Traps tactics is more about what you do when you dont have the ball since he's so happy to give away cheap possession.

Where did I say that he didnt deserve to be on the pitch? I said that bench warming doesnt merit getting a cap.

No its not, people are using McCarthy to aim criticism at Trap regardless of the players form, much like Reid. Reid was off the boil for months and people were still clamouring for his inclusion in the irish setup.

Will I Amnt

McCarthy has stood out as a player with visible quality in a poor Wigan side in the few games I've seen them play this season.

That system is ruining international football for me.
Some people will say it's all about results and it doesn't matter how you go about getting results.Well it does for me.

I watch because it's Ireland,I feel like I have to watch it.
It's become a chore at this stage.

As long as Trappatoni is in charge,players like McCarthy,McClean and Coleman will be overlooked.
10-20 minutes in meaningless friendlies is about the best they can hope for and then it's back to the old reliables for anything competitive.

Sh*t set-up that doesn't allow for change of style or personnel.

Mr.Nice Guy

You are the manager of Ireland.

Whilst overseeing training you notice that Paul Green is impressing you more than James McCarthy.

Days later during the match itself, with your first choice XI needing freshening up, do you:

a) Give the nod to Green based on his hard work over the previous days?

or

b) Give it to McCarthy on the basis he plays for a bigger club and it would be the popular choice to make?

If you answered a, congratulations. Your thinking is in line with that of one of the most successful managers in European football.

monkey9

upandcumming wrote: »

Fuck McClean. All the hype and talk about him, you'd swear Ronaldo or Messi had declared. A disgust. That was the only thing that Sky Sports talked about the other night. It'd be a different story if McClean was still with Derry, doing what he is doing now.

Yep, what McClean was doing in the League of Ireland is what he's doing now in the Prem League. Great to see and completely deserving of his time on the pitch

monkey9

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You are the manager of Ireland.

Whilst overseeing training you notice that Paul Green is impressing you more than James McCarthy.

Days later during the match itself, with your first choice XI needing freshening up, do you:

a) Give the nod to Green based on his hard work over the previous days?

or

b) Give it to McCarthy on the basis he plays for a bigger club and it would be the popular choice to make?

If you answered a, congratulations. Your thinking is in line with that of one of the most successful managers in European football.

Wigan bigger than Derby?? Don't think so!! But, i have to say, you really have made a great point!! Trap is a stubborn bollix!! There is no denying thiis.

James McClean is a proud Irishman and i reckon he was giving it socks in training! Why did Trap give him his debut?? It was nothing to do with the media or crowd!

McClean is keepng his head down and getting on with things (and by the way, there is not a better crosser of the ball in that squad than McClean!!)

Will I Amnt

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You are the manager of Ireland.

Whilst overseeing training you notice that Paul Green is impressing you more than James McCarthy.

Days later during the match itself, with your first choice XI needing freshening up, do you:

a) Give the nod to Green based on his previous games for Ireland where you have seen just how sh*t he can be

or

b) Give it to McCarthy on the basis that he has shown himself to be a capable midfielder in the EPL and sure I might aswel get a look at him in an international game as its only a poxy friendly.

Fyp.

Seaneh

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You are the manager of Ireland.

Whilst overseeing training you notice that Paul Green is impressing you more than James McCarthy.

Days later during the match itself, with your first choice XI needing freshening up, do you:

a) Give the nod to Green based on his hard work over the previous days?

or

b) Give it to McCarthy on the basis he plays for a bigger club and it would be the popular choice to make?

If you answered a, congratulations. Your thinking is in line with that of one of the most successful managers in European football.

This is absolute bull****.

Paul Green has had several caps now and not once has he looked anywhere near international level, he isn't good enough and he shouldnt be in the team, the squad or even the pool of players the squad is drawn from, he doesn't deserve to an Irish International.

He can't even get a game in a very bad Derby County team for **** sake.

Trap picks him because he is "defensive" which is absolute bollocks, he can't tackle, he can't read the game and he is slow.

McCharty is a big, strong, quick, intelligent, ball playing centre midfielder, he contributes all over the park for wigan and not just going forward, he is not shy of helping out in defence or winning the ball back, he offers more, all over the pitch, than Paul Green and would be an infinitely better choice, especially for traps system.

Mr.Nice Guy

Seaneh wrote: »

This is absolute bull****.

Paul Green has had several caps now and not once has he looked anywhere near international level, he isn't good enough and he shouldnt be in the team, the squad or even the pool of players the squad is drawn from, he doesn't deserve to an Irish International.

He can't even get a game in a very bad Derby County team for **** sake.

Trap picks him because he is "defensive" which is absolute bollocks, he can't tackle, he can't read the game and he is slow.

McCharty is a big, strong, quick, intelligent, ball playing centre midfielder, he contributes all over the park for wigan and not just going forward, he is not shy of helping out in defence or winning the ball back, he offers more, all over the pitch, than Paul Green and would be an infinitely better choice, especially for traps system.

Green's just back from a serious injury and he didn't do badly when he came on.

You're just spouting the same old populist views.

Did you oversee training? No you didn't. I'll trust the guy with decades of managerial experience who was actually in charge of the camp and formed his own views based on what he had seen.

McCarthy is a player I've rated highly but as Dempsey said earlier his form has not been great. He is not the Roy Keane-esque figure you have described above. I believe Martinez benched him for a few games not long ago.

The hype machine is in full swing for the latest prospects out in the cold (as usual) but here's a whacky concept - maybe, just maybe, in training these guys weren't quite up to it and a guy like Green offered more?

I'd rather a manager go with his gut instincts and base his views on what he sees up close with his own eyes rather than try to appease the masses.

Dempsey

Seaneh, I share you dislike for Traps system and approach to picking Irish players but McCarthy is not big, strong or quick. His ball playing ability isnt really the issue, its his work when the team doesnt have the ball and thats important for a team that doesnt do possession football.

~Rebel~

How about we look at the actual circumstances. The substitution was made 10 minutes after we conceded. The Czechs had all of the ball.

It wouldn't have made sense to bring on a chap who doesn't win the ball back. Without us having possession, we're not able to use McCarthy's best attributes, and indeed risk exposing his worst attributes.

Instead, naturally, you bring on a guy with fresh legs who's specialty is winning back possession, so that you can try to get a foothold in the game.


I want to see McCarthy get more game-time, and I think Trap is far from infallible, but I think it's only fair to him that each and every decision is based on its actual merits rather than just rabble rousing for the sake of it.

Kidchameleon

F*uck McArthy, absolutly F*ck him! He was called up for the nations cup and was "injured", yeah right. I dont care how good a player is, if they are not 100% dedicated to the Irish cause then they can feck off. He was given his chance at the nations cup, I'm convinced he would be a regular starter had it not been for his disrespect.

secman

This "looked good in training" always amuses me, I remember (many moons ago) my playing days. There were always guys who worked their arses off in training, but no matter how hard they trained and how well they looked and played in training games, they just could never reproduce it in real games. On the otherhand there were guys who looked ordinary in training but when they put the jersey on, a totally different prospect. Over 20 odd years of playing with different teams and players it never changed. I presume it is pretty similar in the professional game too.

Secman

Alias G

Dempsey wrote: »

McClean is a physically stronger and faster player than what he was at Derry. Dont anyone delude themselves otherwise.

He only left Derry a few months ago in fairness. He has hardly transmogrified in that time.

Rekop dog

I can't remember a footballing issue where the ignorance of a decent % of football fans has been highlighted more blatantly regarding Trap's abilities as a manager and sheer level of detail and preparation he goes to to mould a successful team. These are things most people don't understand and wouldn't come anywhere near the depth of thought of Trap, but still think they're well positioned to confidently doubt his credentials as Ireland manager.

Posts criticising his actual style are ok, but I'd have doubts that people would take potentially less success for a better style of football. If we weren't qualified for the Euros, the Aviva would have been a goast town on Wednesday night regardless if we played fantastic exciting attacking football. It's success that puts bums on seats, and it's a good indicator of how well Trap's doing that so many showed up on Wed night even if most of them were frustrated by his policies.

MoscowFlyer

lol @ the training argument. Give me a break.

You don't need to see Ireland train to know who is the better footballer between Green and McCarthy.

batm!ke

I think a lot of the frustration with Trap comes down the future of the national team. Not many people would begrudge Given, Dunne, Keane and Duffer their last big hurrah (possibly) in the green shirt, but it's what is coming after is depressing. My own view is that he should be giving Coleman, McClean and McCarthy some sort of game time now, don't disillusion them.

Fair enough Trap has a system but when the lads who have been there for years retire and we're faced with the same tactics as now but with inferior players such as Green it's going to be a lot less fun to watch than now and not half as successful. The young lads should be eased in to game time now to prepare for the future IMO.

Seaneh

Dempsey wrote: »

McCarthy is not big, strong or quick.

He is two inches taller than Green, he is quicker than green and he can ride a tackle pretty well. He is strong on the ball and in the tackle.

He is a better defensive player than Paul Green.

This is not debatable.

Paul Green is an average lower-mid Championship water carrier.

Will I Amnt

batm!ke wrote: »

Fair enough Trap has a system but when the lads who have been there for years retire and we're faced with the same tactics as now but with inferior players such as Green it's going to be a lot less fun to watch than now and not half as successful. The young lads should be eased in to game time now to prepare for the future IMO.

That's exactly how I feel.
There's no room for change while he's there.
If a player of equal talent to Xavi suddenly became available,you would have to wonder would he be able to displace Whelan or Andrews??
It should be a no brainer but with Trap you wouldn't bet against him warming the bench.

Rhys Essien

Kidchameleon wrote: »

F*uck McArthy, absolutly F*ck him! He was called up for the nations cup and was "injured", yeah right. I dont care how good a player is, if they are not 100% dedicated to the Irish cause then they can feck off. He was given his chance at the nations cup, I'm convinced he would be a regular starter had it not been for his disrespect.

Maybe McCarthy didnt want to play in the Nations Cup because he was afraid of all the **** he would have got from the NI and Scottish fans,which can be understood.

You do realise that he got a lot of grief after declaring for Ireland.

KERSPLAT!

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Maybe McCarthy didnt want to play in the Nations Cup because he was afraid of all the **** he would have got from the NI and Scottish fans,which can be understood.

You do realise that he got a lot of grief after declaring for Ireland.

If he was genuinely injured fair enough but the above is a crap excuse

Kidchameleon

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Maybe McCarthy didnt want to play in the Nations Cup because he was afraid of all the **** he would have got from the NI and Scottish fans,which can be understood.

You do realise that he got a lot of grief after declaring for Ireland.

Thats precisley my point though. He should want to play for Ireland no matter what. The fact that he dident when given the chance means that he is not 100% commited to the Ireland team. Any half decent football player should be able to take a bit of flack from the crowd.

G.K.

What if he was genuinely injured?

Raskolnikov

McCarthy starts for Wigan today in his usual holding midfield role. His form has improved in the last few games so it will be interesting to see how he does today.

Kidchameleon

G.K. wrote: »

What if he was genuinely injured?

He wasnt, he refused to see the FAI doctors

Kidchameleon

sugarman wrote: »

Yeah, because despite his club contacting the FAI to notify them. They inisisted in him traveling over to Dublin for a medical, then flying back.

Valid reason. He was injured.

Oh thats right, clubs just love their players going on international duty. There's no chance they were lying on his behalf :rolleyes:


Look, if the lad wanted to play for Ireland desperately, he would have traveled. He wasn't arsed and is now paying the price.

Rhys Essien

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Oh thats right, clubs just love their players going on international duty. There's no chance they were lying on his behalf :rolleyes:


Look, if the lad wanted to play for Ireland desperately, he would have traveled. He wasn't arsed and is now paying the price.

But surely Trap isnt so childish to be holding grudges.:rolleyes:

G.K.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Oh thats right, clubs just love their players going on international duty. There's no chance they were lying on his behalf :rolleyes:

How likely is it though that people would lie? you're just vindictive and want to blame McCarthy.

Kidchameleon

G.K. wrote: »

How likely is it though that people would lie? you're just vindictive and want to blame McCarthy.

Probably the player and the club saw it as a meaningless tournament with poor opposition. Player wasn't arsed and club were delighted to back him up so as not to risk injury... Probably happens all the time in football. Alex Ferguson has that attitude, him being just one example.

Will I Amnt

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Probably the player and the club saw it as a meaningless tournament with poor opposition. Player wasn't arsed and club were delighted to back him up so as not to risk injury... Probably happens all the time in football. Alex Ferguson has that attitude, him being just one example.

Is there evidence he wasn't carrying a knock or are you just assuming???

I'm sure it happens but we have to take it at face value.
I thought Rooney had developed a convenient throat infection last week as an excuse to keep him for the weekend,turns out he still had it at the weekend.

eagle eye

McCarthy has a question mark over his work rate, the most games he has played in a whole season is 24. He is playing for the worst team in the Premier League and a team thats been fighting relegation annually since he got there. If he was as good as some people would have us believe he would have been bought up by a bigger club by now but there hasn't even been one offer that I've seen reported. He might have other problems that we are unaware of like character issues that Trap doesn't like. Green hasn't been great but maybe Trap sees a player that he feels will improve when he gets familiar with his set up.

I'd guess that most of this talk is coming from people who just don't like the football Trap's teams play and they are just looking for anything to moan about because while its not attractive football its very affective.

Kidchameleon

cambo2008 wrote: »

Is there evidence he wasn't carrying a knock or are you just assuming???

HE REFUSED TO SEE THE FAI DOCTORS!!!!

~Rebel~

Kidchameleon wrote: »

HE REFUSED TO SEE THE FAI DOCTORS!!!!

To be honest, if I was him, and was genuinely carrying a knock, which my club doctors had verified, and contacted the FAI about to confirm - and then the FAI said "We want you to fly to Dublin, see our doctors so we know you're not lying, and then fly back again", I'd have told them to **** themselves.

If they wanted to confirm so badly, they could have travelled to see him.

A club doctors statement should be enough. A doctor caught faking results would lose his license.

Will I Amnt

Kidchameleon wrote: »

cambo2008 wrote: »

Is there evidence he wasn't carrying a knock or are you just assuming???

HE REFUSED TO SEE THE FAI DOCTORS!!!!

Why the f**k would he want to get on a plane and fly to another country to find out something he already knows??
Something he was told by people that work with him week in week out.

The lad declared for this country over his own,he obviously wants to represent us,there's no reason to think he fabricated a story to get out of playing.

Raskolnikov

Just to get some perspective on McCarthy, he has been absolutely slated by a few Wigan fans for the Swansea game where he had another shocker.

http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=81154&Itemid=96#81202

http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=81107&Itemid=96

doncarlos

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Just to get some perspective on McCarthy, he has been absolutely slated by a few Wigan fans for the Swansea game where he had another shocker.

http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=81154&Itemid=96#81202

http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=81107&Itemid=96

Looked terrible in the highlights. Can only imagine what he looked like in a full 90 minutes

Coillte_Bhoy

Kidchameleon wrote: »

HE REFUSED TO SEE THE FAI DOCTORS!!!!

Any concrete proof for this?? Also should every player who has to pull out of a squad through injury, fly over to Dublin to see the FAI doctor?? Thats what you seem to be suggesting.

sonic85

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Just to get some perspective on McCarthy, he has been absolutely slated by a few Wigan fans for the Swansea game where he had another shocker.

http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=81154&Itemid=96#81202

http://www.cockneylatic.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=81107&Itemid=96

maybe thread title should be changed to How poor is James McCarthy?

plasmaguy

darkman2 wrote: »

Midfielders don't live on assists. Wingers do. McCarthy plays very well in midfield and is a great passer of the ball. He is technically superior to Andrews and Whelan. And yet you don't think he should have been on that pitch at all on Wednesday?

PS McCarthy is no Andy Reid. Muppet thing to say.

At modern international level, central midfielders need more than just "passing ability".

Gone are the days where you could have a central midfielder ala Johny Giles who could put their put on the ball and pick out a 40 yard pass for someone on the left wing.

Central midfield players these days have to be the fittest players on the field, super athletes who need to be able to run from box to box and sideline to sideline for 90 minutes straight, put in the hard tackles, block shots on goal, win the ball back, tackle, pass, run, head, shoot, and so on.

Just being able to pass is only a small fraction of the modern central midfielders game. Passing is the bit which gets all the attention. When Stephen Gerard plays a great pass, everythone takes notice. But rarely do they notice the other 89 minutes when he is closing down, tackling, blocking shots and so on, the meat and drink of central midfield.

Give me a central midfielder who can tackle and defend and win the ball back any day over one who can play a 40 yard pass once or twice a match.

Like I said, being able to play a 40 yard pass is nice, but is a small fraction of the modern midfielders game.