Kenny signs treaty- before asking the people for their decision

screamer

This just does not sit well with me at all, arrogance in the extreme, surely he should have shown some backbone and abstained from signing it until the referendum has been held?

3DataModem

Backbone would have been NOT calling a referendum and just proceeding because - shock - he might think it's good for the country.

Godge

There is a difference between signing and ratification. Signing the Treaty is not binding on anyone - it commits a State to consider ratifying it.

The Treaty can only be ratified if it is signed. The process of ratification begins once the Treaty is signed. The referendum can only be held once the process of ratifications begins which is after the signature so you have got the whole thing arseways.

So the procedure is something like ths:

1. Negotiation of Treaty
2. Consideration by Government of Treaty and whether to sign
3. If yes, sign Treaty
4. Pass legislation in Dail for referendum
5. Hold referendum
6. If yes, pass enabling legislation in Dail
7. Submit instrument of ratification.
8. Treaty comes into force once 11 have ratified.

We are now at Stage 3. The two deciding points are at 2 and 5. 2 was yes so we proceeded to 3.

paddyandy

How many of us understand it truly ? Tribal .

McTigs

There was a woman on Matt Cooper yesterday, I think Irish journalist based in brussels, and she was basicly saying nobody there cares whether we sign it or not.

As far as they are concerned, they are stabilising the currency and we can be part of that or not but they are not really bothered either way.

This vote is big news here and there will be all kinds of shouting and roaring about it over the next few months, over there they are moving on and they won't really be thinking about us again till we are back cap in hand sometime next year..... which after a No vote they may just tell us to get lost and try our luck on the open market.

tayto lover

McTigs wrote: »

There was a woman on Matt Cooper yesterday, I think Irish journalist based in brussels, and she was basicly saying nobody there cares whether we sign it or not.

As far as they are concerned, they are stabilising the currency and we can be part of that or not but they are not really bothered either way.

This vote is big news here and there will be all kinds of shouting and roaring about it over the next few months, over there they are moving on and they won't really be thinking about us again till we are back cap in hand sometime next year..... which after a No vote they may just tell us to get lost and try our luck on the open market.

Maybe they might realise that if there is a NO vote then they are not taking their people along with them and lumbering them with too much austerity and that their leaders are working along on their own bat in deference to their people.
Maybe the rest of Europe's leadership might start really thinking about the reasons why a small wee nation is again voting No and again feeling hard done by.

screamer

Yes, I heard that journalist on the radio, and if that is true, then passing this treaty just means that this mentality will prevail, little Ireland, a small peripheral country in Europe, who cares about them, not us .... so, let's all vote yes then, shall we?

McTigs

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe they might realise that if there is a NO vote then they are not taking their people along with them and lumbering them with too much austerity and that their leaders are working along on their own bat in deference to their people.
Maybe the rest of Europe's leadership might start really thinking about the reasons why a small wee nation is again voting No and again feeling hard done by.

Maybe but probably not.

They are doing what they are doing and won't be held up by us no matter how important we think our vote is and to be honest i don't blame them.

And you think this is austerity? how about the austerity we'll when the cheap loans dry up? This will be the good ol days.

McTigs

screamer wrote: »

Yes, I heard that journalist on the radio, and if that is true, then passing this treaty just means that this mentality will prevail, little Ireland, a small peripheral country in Europe, who cares about them, not us .... so, let's all vote yes then, shall we?

I can see where they are coming from, they're fed up to the back teeth with this turmiol and want to bring an end to it. And yes on their terms but at the end of the day, they are the ones writing the cheques.

I think what they care about to the exclusion of all else right now is stabilising the currency

Scofflaw

Can people please think about what forum they're posting in? Don't just add something political to the Irish Economy forum because "hey Ireland has an economy, right?" or because it just happens to be where you are at the time.

moderately,
Scofflaw

femur61

McTigs wrote: »

There was a woman on Matt Cooper yesterday, I think Irish journalist based in brussels, and she was basicly saying nobody there cares whether we sign it or not.

As far as they are concerned, they are stabilising the currency and we can be part of that or not but they are not really bothered either way.

This vote is big news here and there will be all kinds of shouting and roaring about it over the next few months, over there they are moving on and they won't really be thinking about us again till we are back cap in hand sometime next year..... which after a No vote they may just tell us to get lost and try our luck on the open market.

People who voted on the basis of parish pump politics will vote no haven't we learnt we can't go it alone. We are small fry in the context of the EU. We were and are very happy to take their money, I remember pre the EEC. Life for all has changed but we have only ourselves to blame, yes we got cheap money but we went mad.

gerryo777

femur61 wrote: »

Life for all has changed but we have only ourselves to blame, yes we got cheap money but we went mad.

Enda, is that you?

Seriously though, if the bigger nations are saying to Ireland pretty much 'if you don't do what we want we'll go on without you', then is this really a club that we want to be in?
I wonder would the same have been said to Germany 10 years ago?

tayto lover

femur61 wrote: »

People who voted on the basis of parish pump politics will vote no haven't we learnt we can't go it alone. We are small fry in the context of the EU. We were and are very happy to take their money, I remember pre the EEC. Life for all has changed but we have only ourselves to blame, yes we got cheap money but we went mad.

Speak for yourself. I didn't go mad at all.

meglome

gerryo777 wrote: »

Enda, is that you?

Seriously though, if the bigger nations are saying to Ireland pretty much 'if you don't do what we want we'll go on without you', then is this really a club that we want to be in?
I wonder would the same have been said to Germany 10 years ago when their deficit was over 10%?

Right so if they won't dance to whatever tune we decide, even though there is nothing in it for them and they are funding our state, we should get all pissed off?

meglome

tayto lover wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I didn't go mad at all.

I didn't either but let's not pretend we didn't all get something out of it as we did.

Liam Byrne

3DataModem wrote: »

Backbone would have been NOT calling a referendum and just proceeding because - shock - he might think it's good for the country.

His track record regarding what he thinks is "good for the country" is pretty dented at this stage, so I don't personally trust his judgement on any such matters.

Tickityboo

meglome wrote: »

tayto lover wrote: »

Speak for yourself. I didn't go mad at all.

I didn't either but let's not pretend we didn't all get
something out of it as we did.

All I have got out of it is a nice big mortgage and a nice long commute to an from work!!!

meglome

Tickityboo wrote: »

All I have got out of it is a nice big mortgage and a nice long commute to an from work!!!

We all gained from lowers taxes and better services etc. And thanks to people like you who paid ridiculous money for houses in the middle of nowhere.

deirdremf

meglome wrote: »

We all gained from lowers taxes and better services etc. And thanks to people like you who paid ridiculous money for houses in the middle of nowhere.

Lower taxes, for a while, maybe, particularly for the rich.
Better services? Ten years ago a trip to A&E was free, now it costs €100.


Is anyone else out there planning on voting YES for JOBS?

Tickityboo

meglome wrote: »

Tickityboo wrote: »

All I have got out of it is a nice big mortgage and a nice long commute to an from work!!!

We all gained from lowers taxes and better services etc. And thanks to people like you who paid ridiculous money for houses in the middle of nowhere.

It was either do that or stay in the ****hole where I was and my kids having no chance of a life.
Woopy doo we got a few motorways but what about health and education?

meglome

deirdremf wrote: »

Lower taxes, for a while, maybe, particularly for the rich.

We have a progressive tax system here. So the lower paid pay very little income tax.

deirdremf wrote: »

Better services? Ten years ago a trip to A&E was free, now it costs €100.

Sure and there are going to be many more tax rises. That's what happens when you run a country based on stamp duty money.

deirdremf wrote: »

Is anyone else out there planning on voting YES for JOBS?

Recession/property bubble bursts = Mid 2008
Lisbon treaty law = December 2009

When you lay off hundreds of thousands employed in that construction bubble before the Lisbon treaty comes into law what do you expect. Any jobs created by signing the Lisbon treaty cannot fix the mess we made before it.

meglome

Tickityboo wrote: »

It was either do that or stay in the ****hole where I was and my kids having no chance of a life.
Woopy doo we got a few motorways but what about health and education?

I rented great places all through it and still do. Might buy when the price is right in a few years, then again might not.

Foleyart

stall the ball here a minute folks, who is "giving" us money ? My understanding is that they gambled on our banks and it went belly up. Now they are"lending "us money to pay the interest on their original bad loans. I also have a huge mortgage and am self employed, though this would not cripple me, the tripling of my tax bill last year has. I had to borrow money to pay it. It will take some very serious arguments to persuade me to vote yes!!

Scofflaw

Tickityboo wrote: »

It was either do that or stay in the ****hole where I was and my kids having no chance of a life.
Woopy doo we got a few motorways but what about health and education?

Even if the services there got slightly worse over the Tiger years, health and education still benefited from the boom, because the population increased quite dramatically.

Most of the benefits, though, were in the form of very much lower taxes, and very much higher social transfers. The government largely followed the right-wing style of putting money back in the hands of the public rather than increasing public services.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Foleyart wrote: »

stall the ball here a minute folks, who is "giving" us money ? My understanding is that they gambled on our banks and it went belly up. Now they are"lending "us money to pay the interest on their original bad loans.

That's almost completely wrong, though, despite being a popular view. As the German ambassador pointed out last week, had that been the aim, it would have been vastly cheaper for Germany to simply put its money into its banks directly - rather than, amongst other things, letting the Irish banks cream their bonuses off them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

Even if the services there got slightly worse over the Tiger years, health and education still benefited from the boom, because the population increased quite dramatically.

Most of the benefits, though, were in the form of very much lower taxes, and very much higher social transfers. The government largely followed the right-wing style of putting money back in the hands of the public rather than increasing public services.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree with what you are saying when applied to the latter years of the Celtic Tiger, but we mustn't forget the age of the tiger, which would have turned about 26 this year (RIP poor chap).

Wage restraint and an improvement in public infrastructure did in fact characterise the early years of the Celtic Tiger, which probably should have been called the FDI Tiger.

It was only when the Celtic Tiger reached late adolescence that the imprudent and unruly behaviour really got going... staying out late, decreasing productivity, demanding more wages, engaging in follies, these tiger cubs really grow up to be such beasts.

Scofflaw

later12 wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying when applied to the latter years of the Celtic Tiger, but we mustn't forget the age of the tiger, which would have turned about 26 this year (RIP poor chap).

Wage restraint and an improvement in public infrastructure did in fact characterise the early years of the Celtic Tiger, which probably should have been called the FDI Tiger.

It was only when the Celtic Tiger reached late adolescence that the imprudent and unruly behaviour really got going... staying out late, decreasing productivity, demanding more wages, engaging in follies, these tiger cubs really grow up to be such beasts.

Sure - the period where we qualified for euro membership was an extremely tightly run ship. Once we were on board, though...different story.

cordially,
Scofflaw

tayto lover

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's almost completely wrong, though, despite being a popular view. As the German ambassador pointed out last week, had that been the aim, it would have been vastly cheaper for Germany to simply put its money into its banks directly - rather than, amongst other things, letting the Irish banks cream their bonuses off them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes indeed but that's more to do with the Government and the Bankers than with the workers.
We are the ones "chosen" to pay for all that.

syklops

Godge wrote: »

There is a difference between signing and ratification. Signing the Treaty is not binding on anyone - it commits a State to consider ratifying it.

The Treaty can only be ratified if it is signed. The process of ratification begins once the Treaty is signed. The referendum can only be held once the process of ratifications begins which is after the signature so you have got the whole thing arseways.

So the procedure is something like ths:

1. Negotiation of Treaty
2. Consideration by Government of Treaty and whether to sign
3. If yes, sign Treaty
4. Pass legislation in Dail for referendum
5. Hold referendum
6. If yes, pass enabling legislation in Dail
7. Submit instrument of ratification.
8. Treaty comes into force once 11 have ratified.

We are now at Stage 3. The two deciding points are at 2 and 5. 2 was yes so we proceeded to 3.

Don't allow the truth to get in the way of a nice rant.

gerryo777

meglome wrote: »

Right so if they won't dance to whatever tune we decide, even though there is nothing in it for them and they are funding our state, we should get all pissed off?

What's in it for them is the fact that we will default down the line if something isn't done with our debts.

It's not just the ECB that are funding us at the moment, the IMF have a fairly big interest in us doing well too, hence them this afternoon urging the EU/ECB to do a deal with us.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0302/bailout.html

gerryo777

meglome wrote: »

We all gained from lowers taxes and better services etc.

Yes, our health service is a shining example of the improvements made during the 'tiger' era, isn't it?
Lower taxes? Maybe lower income taxes but a million and one stealth taxes instead.

meglome

gerryo777 wrote: »

Yes, our health service is a shining example of the improvements made during the 'tiger' era, isn't it?
Lower taxes? Maybe lower income taxes but a million and one stealth taxes instead.

ah give me a break until very recently we had some the least taxed people in Europe. The stamp duty is gone and now we have to pay how we should have been paying all along.

syklops

Tickityboo wrote: »

All I have got out of it is a nice big mortgage and a nice long commute to an from work!!!

You do realise that when the mortage is paid off, you will get to keep the house?

gerryo777

meglome wrote: »

ah give me a break until very recently we had some the least taxed people in Europe. The stamp duty is gone and now we have to pay how we should have been paying all along.

That's your opinion, it's wrong, but it's your's.
This is a country where if you buy a car you pay VRT and then you pay VAT on top of that.
You buy fuel for the car and 65% of what you pay at the pumps goes in tax.
Every pint you drink, give 30% in tax.
Our VAT rate is 23%.
Remember that stamp duty was up to 9% on some houses.
Out of the cost of a house, up to 60% went to government in one tax or another.
The list of rip off stealth taxes is endless.

uruguay

In Greece the population riot. In France they will riot. In Ireland the population moans.

I'm curious to know how much it will take for the Irish people to riot and give their politicians the message.

meglome

gerryo777 wrote: »

That's your opinion, it's wrong, but it's your's.
This is a country where if you buy a car you pay VRT and then you pay VAT on top of that.
You buy fuel for the car and 65% of what you pay at the pumps goes in tax.
Every pint you drink, give 30% in tax.
Our VAT rate is 23%.
The list of rip off stealth taxes is endless.

And there are plenty of other taxes we didn't pay, like water, council and property taxes.

Here's some reading for you http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/27/are-irish-workers-undertaxed/

Ireland was already one of the lowest taxers in the OECD in 2000 and yet it cut its taxes by twice as much as any other economy.

gerryo777

uruguay wrote: »

In Greece the population riot. In France they will riot. In Ireland the population moans.

I'm curious to know how much it will take for the Irish people to riot and give their politicians the message.

Maybe they don't have boards.gr or boards.fr.
We only riot here when some love ulster fools try to march on our capital.

syklops

uruguay wrote: »

In Greece the population riot. In France they will riot. In Ireland the population moans.

I'm curious to know how much it will take for the Irish people to riot and give their politicians the message.

Whats the message?

gerryo777

meglome wrote: »

And there are plenty of other taxes we didn't pay, like water, council and property taxes.

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I'd reckon what I paid in stamp duty would cover these for 30 years if they were set at the equivalent rates that they have in the UK.
UK stamp duty was averaging 1-3%.

meglome

gerryo777 wrote: »

I'd reckon what I paid in stamp duty would cover these for 30 years if they were set at the equivalent rates that they have in the UK.
UK stamp duty was averaging 1-3%.

Show us the figures then and we can work it out.

tayto lover

syklops wrote: »

You do realise that when the mortage is paid off, you will get to keep the house?

Is that right ? There I was just imagining that they were trying to introduce a Property Tax to screw us for having the gall to struggle for years and own our homes..

later12

uruguay wrote: »

I'm curious to know how much it will take for the Irish people to riot and give their politicians the message.

I'm curious to know when the rioting Greeks will realise that they have to maintain a sustainable debt stock and need to promote their economic responsibility to investors if they ever want to enjoy economic growth.

I'm not suggesting that what the troika are doing in Greece is comprehensively wise, but that what the rioters are asking for (which goes far beyond mere criticisms of the specifications of the Greek programme, into something far more radical) is mortally absurd from an economic perspective.

humanji

uruguay wrote: »

In Greece the population riot. In France they will riot. In Ireland the population moans.

I'm curious to know how much it will take for the Irish people to riot and give their politicians the message.

So Irish business owners are struggling to survive in the current economic climate, and your solution is to burn down their shops and destroy their lives?

syklops

tayto lover wrote: »

Is that right ? There I was just imagining that they were trying to introduce a Property Tax to screw us for having the gall to struggle for years and own our homes..

That comment was in response to a poster that all he got out of the celtic tiger was a mortgage. I was pointing out at the end of the mortgage he will have a house.

K-9

syklops wrote: »

That comment was in response to a poster that all he got out of the celtic tiger was a mortgage. I was pointing out at the end of the mortgage he will have a house.

Its almost as if he/she had to buy a house and pay big stamp duty.

View

screamer wrote: »

This just does not sit well with me at all, arrogance in the extreme, surely he should have shown some backbone and abstained from signing it until the referendum has been held?

At which point you or others would be claiming "Ah, but if he doesn't have the confidence in it to sign it, why should we vote on it?"

You do realise that Ireland entered into 35 separate international agreements in 2011 alone, all of them signed before the Oireachtas (and/or the people) got to vote on them?

gerryo777

meglome wrote: »

Show us the figures then and we can work it out.

What figures would you like?

View

gerryo777 wrote: »

That's your opinion, it's wrong, but it's your's.
This is a country where if you buy a car you pay VRT and then you pay VAT on top of that.
You buy fuel for the car and 65% of what you pay at the pumps goes in tax.
Every pint you drink, give 30% in tax.
Our VAT rate is 23%.
Remember that stamp duty was up to 9% on some houses.
Out of the cost of a house, up to 60% went to government in one tax or another.
The list of rip off stealth taxes is endless.

Well, I have a lot of sympathy with this but I am afraid that the situation is in large (altough not all) part due to the electorate.

How so?

When offered the chance, people voted for "low taxes" which the government interpreted as low personal income taxes. This was done largely by moving the tax burden over to duties, VAT etc (since the electorate certainly was not calling for cuts in government spending).

People did not though demand more efficient spending, cost control etc - had they done so, we'd be in better shape than we currently are.

happyman81

McTigs wrote: »

There was a woman on Matt Cooper yesterday, I think Irish journalist based in brussels, and she was basicly saying nobody there cares whether we sign it or not.

As far as they are concerned, they are stabilising the currency and we can be part of that or not but they are not really bothered either way.

This vote is big news here and there will be all kinds of shouting and roaring about it over the next few months, over there they are moving on and they won't really be thinking about us again till we are back cap in hand sometime next year..... which after a No vote they may just tell us to get lost and try our luck on the open market.

This conveniently ignores the fact that the ECB is exposed to Irish banks to at least €100bn...

Liam Byrne

View wrote: »

When offered the chance, people voted for "low taxes" which the government interpreted as low personal income taxes.

The government interpreted incorrectly so.

This was done largely by moving the tax burden over to duties, VAT etc (since the electorate certainly was not calling for cuts in government spending).

What makes you think they weren't ? There was repeated outcry about the amount of waste, but the government ignored it - another crap decision

People did not though demand more efficient spending, cost control etc - had they done so, we'd be in better shape than we currently are.

What "people" didn't ? Every time we did we were fobbed off with the false claim that Ireland was low tax and faced with arrogant "sense of entitlement" speeches from con-men and no decisions to cut waste; even Kenny's pay caps have been abandoned by both Kenny & Varadkar, giving the electorate who voted for them an arrogant two-fingers.

later12

happyman81 wrote: »

This conveniently ignores the fact that the ECB is exposed to Irish banks to at least €100bn...

I think you're conveniently ignoring two significant facts here. Firstly that much of the risk on the ELA is technically assumed at the National Central Bank, not at Frankfurt.

Secondly, that this is completely immaterial to the fiscal compact. ELA liabilities will be completely unchanged by whatever the electorate decide in the upcoming treaty.