"Dynmaic Delay"

Hanley

Am I missing something here, or has one of the most obviously important components of sport just been science-afied and mystified?

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/invisible-judo-timing-judo-throws-2025941/

Doug Cartel

Hanley wrote: »

Am I missing something here, or has one of the most obviously important components of sport just been science-afied and mystified?

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/invisible-judo-timing-judo-throws-2025941/

It's kind of hard to tell, you'll have to try a little harder to let us know what your thoughts on it are first.

Hanley

Doug Cartel wrote: »

It's kind of hard to tell, you'll have to try a little harder to let us know what your thoughts on it are first.

Change of pace and direction kills.

Doug Cartel

No, what do you think of the article itself?

On the one hand "Change of pace and direction kills." is an obvious statement. Yet on the other, if you've ever been in a class where people are being taught the okuru ashi bari throw, you'll find the people who get this principal straight off is vanishingly small. I've only seen one guy pick it up quickly, and he already had an extensive Greco-Roman wresteling background.

People often need to have really obvious stuff carefully explained to them, I know I did.

Hanley

Doug Cartel wrote: »

No, what do you think of the article itself?

On the one hand "Change of pace and direction kills." is an obvious statement. Yet on the other, if you've ever been in a class where people are being taught the okuru ashi bari throw, you'll find the people who get this principal straight off is vanishingly small. I've only seen one guy pick it up quickly, and he already had an extensive Greco-Roman wresteling background.

People often need to have really obvious stuff carefully explained to them, I know I did.

Oh... ok Maybe it IS just me then. Like I'd consider it the same as cutting or dropping a shoulder and going when running at an opponent, same principle like.

Other than the fact he seems to have made a remarkably simple topic into something incredibly complicated, I liked it. Nice seeing the step by step stuff, I've real appreciation for judo.

I just read it and got frustrated because there was so much going into sometihng I'd consider so simple (that's not to say I could walk onto a judo mat and just throw someone, but I'd at least understand the principle of what I was trying to do if it makes sense).

Be interested to hear others thoughts on it, and their backgrounds!

Doug Cartel

The thing is that there are different types of change of pace and direction that you can apply to make throws work. Some of them are obvious, some less so.

At the most basic level you have your basic push-then-pull type changes, which are usually fairly easy to explain. The problem is these get fairly easy to spot and counter, so you have to jazz them up a bit.

The first throw that is shown there looks like a fairly simple sideways foot sweep. It's actually really difficult to do as it just does not work without getting the timing right. The basic way of making the throw work is to first goad your opponent to start dancing in 4/4 then you have to do a bit of a waltz so you are in a position to push his foot just as he picks his weight off it. The throw is 90% timing.

As for you getting frustrated reading it, I would say that's probably the main reason people don't stick with judo. Not the injuries, not that they are work-shy, simply that it can be a very frustrating thing to understand.

Hanley

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The thing is that there are different types of change of pace and direction that you can apply to make throws work. Some of them are obvious, some less so.

At the most basic level you have your basic push-then-pull type changes, which are usually fairly easy to explain. The problem is these get fairly easy to spot and counter, so you have to jazz them up a bit.

The first throw that is shown there looks like a fairly simple sideways foot sweep. It's actually really difficult to do as it just does not work without getting the timing right. The basic way of making the throw work is to first goad your opponent to start dancing in 4/4 then you have to do a bit of a waltz so you are in a position to push his foot just as he picks his weight off it. The throw is 90% timing.

As for you getting frustrated reading it, I would say that's probably the main reason people don't stick with judo. Not the injuries, not that they are work-shy, simply that it can be a very frustrating thing to understand.

Yeah my limited stand up exp in BJJ has kinda opened my eyes to that alright.

Like I'm not debating the difficulty of judo or the technical requirement at all, it's just the article seemed to get very complicated and say very little - but perhaps that's just my ignorance of the sport showing thru?

Doug Cartel

I think the article assumes you already basically know how the throw works, but need help understanding how to get more yourself into a position where it will work against a live opponent who is also trying to throw you. It's definitely not intended as an introduction.

UUJ_Lad

I'm just a Blue belt in Judo, but one of the first things I really picked up on when I started out was, 'You only really learn Judo when you become a Black belt'.

I agree the link got quite complicated, but Judo looks relatively simple when in video format, when your trying to trick someone into taking that step to the right, or back, or forward whatever the case may be it doesn't quite work that way and that's what made him probably try and over elaborate.

Mellor

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The thing is that there are different types of change of pace and direction that you can apply to make throws work. Some of them are obvious, some less so.

At the most basic level you have your basic push-then-pull type changes, which are usually fairly easy to explain. The problem is these get fairly easy to spot and counter, so you have to jazz them up a bit.

Applying to specific Judo throws might be a very complex and delicate thing. But I think Hanleys reason for posting was the way the guy presented it. It's an incredibly simple concept, that children instinctively pick up. Applying it at an elite level is obviously a skill. But the BS name like Dynamic Delay, and the way he was presenting it as a "new' concept was over the top.

I'd rather he said, "stop and go", "push and pull" etc are basic movements that kids pick up, but how do we pull these off at an elite level...

Doug Cartel

Mellor wrote: »

It's an incredibly simple concept, that children instinctively pick up.

A very simple concept that people find very difficult to understand and which they regularly ask for clarification on.

Barry.Oglesby

It's in every sport as he says. Go slow for a bit, then suddenly go quick doesn't exactly roll off the tongue though. I suppose putting a label on it doesn't do any harm.

dartstothesea

It works real good in Pro Evo, lads.