Is Jamie Heaslip Being Underrated?

Clegg

For the last while I've noticed an increasing number of people criticising Jamie Heaslip for supposedly underperforming with Ireland. I've seen it when discussing games with my mates and I've noticed posts on this forum heaping unwarranted abuse on Heaslip. I'm just wondering where it's coming from.

Ever since the World Cup people have been saying that he needs a kick up the arse to get him playing better. People are still saying it now even after Heaslip has put in 2 fine performances against Wales and Italy. He was possibly Irelands MoTM against Wales and stood toe to toe against Parisse on Saturday. He was putting in tackles and making good yards carrying the ball in the tight. What more can you expect?

Are people really buying into the bile spewed by George Hook who claims Heaslip hasn't had a good game for Ireland in 18 months?

.ak

Yes.

Tox56

Yup.

Teferi

As I wrote in the other thread:

There are a number of George Hook-esque characters elsewhere on the internet who dislike Heaslip and come up with a load of spoofs about him. Then people with little working knowledge of rugby read what these eejits write and think it sounds intelligent so they parrot it elsewhere. There really is no basis for it at all.

Higher

Of course he is. Hes actually been very good to be honest. Hes stealing a lot of ball, turning over and linking up brilliantly.

One thing you have to be aware of us is that there are particular players that, no matter how well they play, seem to always be targeted by certain 'fans' these players are D'arcy, Heaslip, and Kearney.

spank_inferno

Yes.

The only other 6N no 8 I think is better is Frances Harinordaquay (spelling?)

Tox56

Wait a minute.. Heaslip to 7 anyone?:pac:

leeroybrown

Agreed. I have noticed a bit of a Heaslip bashing thing everywhere. For my money he's been excellent lately with a good all round game. In a back row with two flankers more naturally suited to a tightly bound game he's picking up a lot of slack burrowing in rucks too. I've had to point this out to so many people who seem to think that just because he's not breaking off the scrum or making rampaging runs he's not doing his job at eight. He definitely went through a period where he'd lost that bit extra you need to offer at international level but I'm quite happy with his contribution right now.

As for Hook, normally I turn over to the BBC about 20 seconds after he opens his mouth. He'd rather throw out an outlandish or contrarian statement to justify his pay cheque than actually analyse the game.

.ak

leeroybrown wrote: »

contrarian

You've made my day.

buck65

Heaslip is the new TOL

wp_rathead

spank_inferno wrote: »

Yes.

The only other 6N no 8 I think is better is Frances Harinordaquay (spelling?)

Parisse???


But yes- Heaslip is doing alot of the donkey work which often goes unnoticed by the chap watching the match sitting on a bar stool

totallegend

Tox56 wrote: »

Wait a minute.. Heaslip to 7 anyone?:pac:

I made the same suggestion before the World Cup; given his mobility and his turnovers, I've always thought he would be more of a natural 7 than SOB. Is he a bit old to be converting now though?

wp_rathead

totallegend wrote:

I made the same suggestion before the World Cup; given his mobility and his turnovers, I've always thought he would be more of a natural 7 than SOB. Is he a bit old to be converting now though?

yes he seems to play the role of the 7 these days. Would make sense for him to be 8 for our own scrums and 7 for scrums against our head as he seems more capable at doing the groundwork in the rucks than O'Brien

WeeBushy

What's the point tbh? We don't play with a specialist 7, the whole back row plays as a single unit, sharing the break down duties. The number on their back is largely unimportant. When it is relevant its for technical things like controlling the ball at the back of a scrum, when and where to pick and go off a scrum, defending from a scrum etc. and these are things that Heaslip excels at in the 8 jersey.

Flincher

Higher wrote: »

Of course he is. Hes actually been very good to be honest. Hes stealing a lot of ball, turning over and linking up brilliantly.

One thing you have to be aware of us is that there are particular players that, no matter how well they play, seem to always be targeted by certain 'fans' these players are D'arcy, Heaslip, and Kearney.

Kearney is getting credit for his good performances. He was rightly slated when he spent a year hoofing everything that came his way back up in the air. That was because he knew what he was capable of with ball in hand, we had seen it in his breakthrough game against Wales in 08. Perfectly legitimate criticism, and you won't find anybody giving out about him now.

Heaslip's form is middling in my view. It's fairly symptomatic of the team. He's doing alright, but I get the feeling there's a spark missing, something that inspires the sort of performance we saw against England and Australia. Half the team is playing the same way.

WeeBushy

Flincher wrote: »

Heaslip's form is middling in my view. It's fairly symptomatic of the team. He's doing alright, but I get the feeling there's a spark missing, something that inspires the sort of performance we saw against England and Australia. Half the team is playing the same way.

What's middling about his performances lately? He has been putting in monstrous work at the break down, turning over ball, defending very well and carrying decently, with great hands when he gets tackled.

thebaz

No - last year , and year before, especially for leinster, heaslip was brill - but he didnt shine at the WC , certainly IMO, when we really needed our star's to take the game by the scuff of the neck , in particular against Wales

Clegg

I forgot to mention in the OP that Heaslip seems to be carrying less in the wider channels these days. Maybe the the lack of gut busting runs is the root of all this criticism? It might make some people believe that he isn't doing as much work as he used to. His carrying in the tight is exceptional as is his work at the breakdown but I'm not sure that is appreciated as much by those watching on TV.

A lot of the work players do at the breakdown is missed by the cameras. You actually have to be in the stadium to see whats really going on there.

leonard7

having received an infraction for a comment made on hook i will choose my words carefully and say that heaslip is still a worldclass number 8. there are also a lot of very good number 8s coming through as well by the look of things we have parisse, faletau, picamoles and denton in the 6N this year but i would still rate heaslip as up there...end of the day hes a class player no matter what is said

durkadurka

I find some of the criticism of heaslip hypocritical.
He was called a show pony for allegedly standing on the wing so that he could make those great runs for the tv cameras.

And now that he's doing so much more of the dirty work the same people criticise him because he's no longer making big carries.

He was a class act and now he's a different kind of class act.

irishbucsfan

I seriously question the IQ of some people.

Some people are saying we need more balance in our back row and then suggesting we take our best breakdown player by an absolute mile out of the squad. It's ridiculous.

I think some people are that simple that they'd need to see Heaslip wear 7 before they appreciate what he's actually doing.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think some people are that simple that they'd need to see Heaslip wear 7 before they appreciate what he's actually doing.

Boom

I suggest we try new numbers this weekend.
Ferris wears 678
SOB wears 768
Heaslip wears 867

profitius

I think SOB has to be moved to 8 or 6 to get the best out of him. So that leaves Ferris or Heaslip missing out. Bring in another player more suited to 7 or maybe try Heaslip there to see how it suits him. SOB is a better ball carrier and Heaslip is probably better at the breakdown than SOB.

Clegg

profitius wrote: »

I think SOB has to be moved to 8 or 6 to get the best out of him. So that leaves Ferris or Heaslip missing out. Bring in another player more suited to 7 or maybe try Heaslip there to see how it suits him. SOB is a better ball carrier and Heaslip is probably better at the breakdown than SOB.

Heaslip is the best 8 in the country by quite a wide margin. SOB makes a decent 8 but doesn't control the ball at the base of the scrum like Heaslip does.

Heaslip is a very intelligent player and can act as a link man as well as being a good ball carrier in his own right. We're weakening the team by shifting Heaslip to accommadate SOB.

d-gal

Is Heaslip playing well overall - yes

Is he playing as well as he was 2/3 years ago - not a hope

He has underperformed by his standards.

Best no.8 in 6nations? Parisse is the best, followed by haridonkey and it is tight with him and faleteau who seems just to be improving everytime I see him.
On heaslips performances 2/3 years ago he would be tied no.1 with Parisse no problem

Tox56

d-gal wrote: »

Is Heaslip playing well overall - yes

Is he playing as well as he was 2/3 years ago - not a hope

He has underperformed by his standards.

Best no.8 in 6nations? Parisse is the best, followed by haridonkey and it is tight with him and faleteau who seems just to be improving everytime I see him.
On heaslips performances 2/3 years ago he would be tied no.1 with Parisse no problem

Barnstorming Runs =/= Automatically a better player.

He is a different type of player now, and he doesn't need to play as he used to when you have SOB and Ferris in the same backrow.

PhatPiggins

Clegg wrote: »

For the last while I've noticed an increasing number of people criticising Jamie Heaslip for supposedly underperforming with Ireland. I've seen it when discussing games with my mates and I've noticed posts on this forum heaping unwarranted abuse on Heaslip. I'm just wondering where it's coming from.

Ever since the World Cup people have been saying that he needs a kick up the arse to get him playing better. People are still saying it now even after Heaslip has put in 2 fine performances against Wales and Italy. He was possibly Irelands MoTM against Wales and stood toe to toe against Parisse on Saturday. He was putting in tackles and making good yards carrying the ball in the tight. What more can you expect?

Are people really buying into the bile spewed by George Hook who claims Heaslip hasn't had a good game for Ireland in 18 months?

He's completely over rated, should have been dropped months ago. All this talk about potential but where's the evidence of it?

Far too slow at breakdowns ........................ hang on what thread am I on ?

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

Wait a minute.. Heaslip to 7 anyone?:pac:

That's what Liam Toland said on The Last Word on Today FM this evening. I'm not sure if he'd fully thought it through and was just thinking out loud but he then went on to say that Heaslip would be very good in that role.

crisco10

Had 2 great turnovers in the first half on Saturday.

He has become our main source of turnovers along with the Best/DOC "choke" tackle.

matthew8

He is absolutely being underrated. Quality performer. Seeing as we've mentioned Parisse, does anyone else here think he gets a bit too much praise for his performances?

d-gal

Tox56 wrote: »

Barnstorming Runs =/= Automatically a better player.

He is a different type of player now, and he doesn't need to play as he used to when you have SOB and Ferris in the same backrow.

Obviously its not about 'brainstorming runs' but even for Leinster he doesn't have the same standards.
He is not up to the standards he was. He still is a great player but not what he was. He will hopefully get back to his high standard.

PhatPiggins

matthew8 wrote: »

He is absolutely being underrated. Quality performer. Seeing as we've mentioned Parisse, does anyone else here think he gets a bit too much praise for his performances?

No not at all. I get a bit tired of lazy commentators harping on about him in games he's only so so (same a Sky do for every game Harinordoquy

plays in) but if you stuck that guy in the French,NZ,Oz,SA team we'd be talking about him as the best 8 of his generation.

pappyodaniel

I've had the same discussion with my mates over the last few weeks. I think he's playing well, they don't. He's doing a lot of turnovers, doing well at the back of the scrum and making hard yards. When Parisse brushed him off at the weekend my mates were screaming at the telly in disgust at the missed tackle. Show me the man who's never missed a tackle and all I'll see is a guy who's never graced a rugby pitch. Heaslip isn't setting the world on fire but he's doing a solid good job.

Here's a question. When David Wallace is back fit and if he's in good form for Munster, will Kidney accomodate in our backrow? At the moment Ferris is undroppable, Heaslip is doing a good job and Sean O'Brien is....
I'm just not seeing enough from SO'B at present. It might be a case of him being singled out by the opposition as a serious running threat or is it a dip in form? or is it lo and behold, that number 7 is not a suitable position to play him.

decisions decisions decisions.

WeeBushy

Tox56 wrote: »

Barnstorming Runs =/= Automatically a better player.

He is a different type of player now, and he doesn't need to play as he used to when you have SOB and Ferris in the same backrow.

This a million time.

How many time does this have to be repeated before people realise Heaslip is not playing badly. Just differently.

GerM

matthew8 wrote: »

He is absolutely being underrated. Quality performer. Seeing as we've mentioned Parisse, does anyone else here think he gets a bit too much praise for his performances?

Yes, to be honest. He's 6'5" and quite light but not a major line out jumper although he has improved significantly as he once was a non-entity. He's not a massive tackler and misses a fair few but is never mentioned. He's good for a missed tackle or two every game because he tries to go for tackles that aren't his to make. His strength is his ridiculous athleticism and having the hands of a 12. Italy utilise him as such and keep him in space and as a playmaking back rower. He tries to do too much himself and ends up turning over a bit of ball too. When he's with Stade and a different game plan is employed, he's not nearly as prominent in the game. Massively talented player but I'd take Harinordoquy any day; I think he's a far more complete and intelligent player.

irishbucsfan

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I've had the same discussion with my mates over the last few weeks. I think he's playing well, they don't. He's doing a lot of turnovers, doing well at the back of the scrum and making hard yards. When Parisse brushed him off at the weekend my mates were screaming at the telly in disgust at the missed tackle. Show me the man who's never missed a tackle and all and all I'll see is a guy who's never graced a rugby pitch. Heaslip isn't setting the world on fire but he's doing a solid good job.

Here's a question. When David Wallace is back fit and if he's in good form for Munster, will Kidney accomodate in our backrow? At the moment Ferris is undroppable, Heaslip is doing a good job and Sean O'Brien is....
I'm just not seeing enough from SO'B at present. It might be a case of him being singled out by the opposition as a serious running threat or is it a dip in form? or is it lo and behold, that number 7 is not a suitable position to play him.

decisions decisions decisions.

I can't wait to have Wallace back. I hope he comes back at his best.

As I've said I don't think SOB is out of position (he plays 7 just as much if not more than 6), just being given far less opportunity (for whatever reason). I think if Wallace is back to his best we'll see this same back row with Wallace on at the end to run at people, just because he is getting on a bit. I think Wallace and SOB are about as suitable as each other to 7, but I don't think balance has been an issue in this backrow with either player there.

If Wallace still has his pace he could be a killer option to bring on with 20/30 minutes to go. That would be great to watch.

skregs

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I've had the same discussion with my mates over the last few weeks. I think he's playing well, they don't. He's doing a lot of turnovers, doing well at the back of the scrum and making hard yards. When Parisse brushed him off at the weekend my mates were screaming at the telly in disgust at the missed tackle. Show me the man who's never missed a tackle and all I'll see is a guy who's never graced a rugby pitch. Heaslip isn't setting the world on fire but he's doing a solid good job.

Here's a question. When David Wallace is back fit and if he's in good form for Munster, will Kidney accomodate in our backrow? At the moment Ferris is undroppable, Heaslip is doing a good job and Sean O'Brien is....
I'm just not seeing enough from SO'B at present. It might be a case of him being singled out by the opposition as a serious running threat or is it a dip in form? or is it lo and behold, that number 7 is not a suitable position to play him.

decisions decisions decisions.

Give Seanie a few games at 6, and move Ferris to 7 and see how undroppable he is then.

boynesider

Heaslip is playing well, SOB is playing well.

Don't judge a players form on the basis of one game.

WeeBushy

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I've had the same discussion with my mates over the last few weeks. I think he's playing well, they don't. He's doing a lot of turnovers, doing well at the back of the scrum and making hard yards. When Parisse brushed him off at the weekend my mates were screaming at the telly in disgust at the missed tackle. Show me the man who's never missed a tackle and all I'll see is a guy who's never graced a rugby pitch. Heaslip isn't setting the world on fire but he's doing a solid good job.

Here's a question. When David Wallace is back fit and if he's in good form for Munster, will Kidney accomodate in our backrow? At the moment Ferris is undroppable, Heaslip is doing a good job and Sean O'Brien is....
I'm just not seeing enough from SO'B at present. It might be a case of him being singled out by the opposition as a serious running threat or is it a dip in form? or is it lo and behold, that number 7 is not a suitable position to play him.

decisions decisions decisions.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I can't wait to have Wallace back. I hope he comes back at his best.

As I've said I don't think SOB is out of position (he plays 7 just as much if not more than 6), just being given far less opportunity (for whatever reason). I think if Wallace is back to his best we'll see this same back row with Wallace on at the end to run at people, just because he is getting on a bit. I think Wallace and SOB are about as suitable as each other to 7, but I don't think balance has been an issue in this backrow with either player there.

If Wallace still has his pace he could be a killer option to bring on with 20/30 minutes to go. That would be great to watch.

In all probability Wallace is not going to be back to the standard of playing for Ireland before next season. By that stage he'll be 36. Is it worth playing him for probably a season before he's too old/retires, to offer us something different? Should we not be looking at younger options to see if they can do the job? Seeing as the rankings for the WC will have been decided by then we should start to slowly look at new options at that stage.

I do wish he was fit now though. No one is really pushing our back row for a starting spot, but Wallace could be if fit. Or back row is playing well imo, but the more competition the better.

Conas

Heaslip is playing the role of a 7 these days, and because O'Brien is so bad in that position, I think to criticise Heaslip is just shocking. He made two excellent steals on Saturday, carried extremely well. If we had a coach that wasn't so one dimensional, we would see a backrow of 6. Ferris 7 Heaslip and 8 O'Brien. But SOB has no excuse, for playing as badly at 7 as he is, and to then to say say to Brent Popey that he think he's should be playing at 6 or 8 is a disgrace. SOB will be on the bench if his form continues, because he looks ordinary these days. Heaslip and Ferris are in much better form.

CatFromHue

WeeBushy wrote: »

In all probability Wallace is not going to be back to the standard of playing for Ireland before next season. By that stage he'll be 36. Is it worth playing him for probably a season before he's too old/retires, to offer us something different?

If he's good enough he's old enough.

3 years out before a RWC is way too early in my opinion to be trying players for that tournament.

jimbomalley

totallegend wrote: »

I made the same suggestion before the World Cup; given his mobility and his turnovers, I've always thought he would be more of a natural 7 than SOB. Is he a bit old to be converting now though?

ive also been saying this for a while and been shot down by the uninformed...think he would do a better job than the tank at 7 (not that SOB is playing poorly, just that his talents are better suited elsewhere) and right now is doing a lot of the work of a 7...he's plenty talented to make the change even now

WeeBushy

CatFromHue wrote: »

If he's good enough he's old enough.

3 years out before a RWC is way too early in my opinion to be trying players for that tournament.

Or young enough!

Yeah, I've been thinking about it since I posted and 3 years out is too early to exclude players that could push for a starting place based on age.

As an aside, my argument could be used for dead wood type players, don't mean that to be disrespectful, who are not going to be around at the next WC and are not pushing for a starting place now. Someone like Paddy Wallace, maybe

But yeah, if he is back fit and playing well I think you're right.

CatFromHue

WeeBushy wrote: »

Or young enough!

Yeah, I've been thinking about it since I posted and 3 years out is too early to exclude players that could push for a starting place based on age.

As an aside, my argument could be used for dead wood type players, don't mean that to be disrespectful, who are not going to be around at the next WC and are not pushing for a starting place now. Someone like Paddy Wallace, maybe

But yeah, if he is back fit and playing well I think you're right.

Yeah young enough. The saying works for players at both end of the age spectrum I think. Wallace like BOD will now hopefully be able to rid himself if any niggles that he had over the years. Hopefully when he comes back he'll be fresher than he's been in years. I was reading in the paper last year about the setup Munster have and it looks good from a laymans point of view in dealing with older players. Here is the link to it: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-follows-ac-milans-example-of-trying-to-hold-back-father-time-2985053.html

I don't think Paddy Wallace is a great example of what you mean though as I'd have him starting in my team now :cool:

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think Paddy Wallace is a great example of what you mean though as I'd have him starting in my team now :cool:

Leamy, Jennings, Cullen, MOD and DOC.

WeeBushy

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah young enough. The saying works for players at both end of the age spectrum I think. Wallace like BOD will now hopefully be able to rid himself if any niggles that he had over the years. Hopefully when he comes back he'll be fresher than he's been in years. I was reading in the paper last year about the setup Munster have and it looks good from a laymans point of view in dealing with older players. Here is the link to it: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-follows-ac-milans-example-of-trying-to-hold-back-father-time-2985053.html

I don't think Paddy Wallace is a great example of what you mean though as I'd have him starting in my team now :cool:

Interesting read, thanks.

I won't argue over Wallace but you get the idea! Basically from next season, as a general idea, if it's 50/50 or 55/45 go with the guy who will be around at the next WC.

shootermacg

Put POM in at 7 and let O'Brien warm the bench for a game or two. I've seen nothing from O'Brien this year so far, he certainly isn't "making holes".
I do agree that Heaslip would make a better 7 than O'Brien, just like he makes a better 8. Can't believe he's getting aggro when he's also having to do O'Brien's job for him.

CatFromHue

shootermacg wrote: »

Put POM in at 7 and let O'Brien warm the bench for a game or two. I've seen nothing from O'Brien this year so far, he certainly isn't "making holes".
I do agree that Heaslip would make a better 7 than O'Brien, just like he makes a better 8. Can't believe he's getting aggro when he's also having to do O'Brien's job for him.

According to ESPN for the Wales game he nearly made more tackles than Ferris and Heaslip combined, made more successful tackles than Ferris and Heaslip combined, beat more defenders than Ferris and Heaslip combined, and also ran more meters than either of them.

boneheaded

Kidney is pushing Heislip out the line and away from the breakdown for added cover with bigger centre comming at us. He is not being let follow the ball from breakdown to breakdown looking to turn it over etc. He is the best tackler out of the 6 7 8 and he is being used for this. 6 and 7 are both big ball carriers and good at turning ball over but he is faster and makes better hits ok he was knocked back once by 8 on Saturday!! He spends alot more time standing in the back line with Ireland than he does with Leinster. Moving him to 7 would only be effictive if he is let play the 7 position. He is being tasked with a different role and he is doing it but it means he is away form the job he should be doing and what, I think, he is best suited to doing.

WeeBushy

boneheaded wrote: »

Kidney is pushing Heislip out the line and away from the breakdown for added cover with bigger centre comming at us. He is not being let follow the ball from breakdown to breakdown looking to turn it over etc. He is the best tackler out of the 6 7 8 and he is being used for this. 6 and 7 are both big ball carriers and good at turning ball over but he is faster and makes better hits ok he was knocked back once by 8 on Saturday!! He spends alot more time standing in the back line with Ireland than he does with Leinster. Moving him to 7 would only be effictive if he is let play the 7 position. He is being tasked with a different role and he is doing it but it means he is away form the job he should be doing and what, I think, he is best suited to doing.

I agree with your analysis, but not what you say at the end. In order to get the best out of all of them Heaslip needs to make sacrifices, as does O'Brien. Ferris is one of those players who does everything anyway. This gets the best out of all three of them. He is played differently with Leinster as they have a different dynamic in their back row and play a different style of rugby.

Dr.Evil

If playing well is defined as making lots of breaks, than no, he is not playing well. Purely on the basis he is not carrying ball like he used to, because he's changed his style of play.
If playing well is defined as making tackles, defending the fringe at rucks, and constantly being a menace on the ground, then he is playing.

Watch out for him in games. Just because he isn't breaking 2/3 tackles at a given time doesn't mean he's not playing well or needs a kick up the arse, or has become an average player. He does put himself around. I actually thought he was on of our best players on the pitch against Italy.