Should there be combined ladies and "less able men's" races?

feck sake lads

jameverywhere wrote: »

That's what I'm building up me knees for! Wanna do a three week all-Ireland trip in August if I can.

ah you'll be grand your knees will thank you for it no more 20mph average speeds time to smell the roses.:D:D
i'm doing mizen to malin in may.:cool:

Sr. Assumpta

jameverywhere wrote: »

Ugh. Why segregate by gender at all?

They use weight classes in stuff like wrestling. Surely there can be some system devised to group cyclists by ability and level of fitness? That doesn't involve gender...?

Like.
Let's reclassify all categories by weight alone, all category changes should be based entirely on weight lost or gained; any mid-season dramatic increase in poundage/evidence of anorexia should be 'rewarded' with an instant up/down-grade.
Next problem is do we include the weight of your race bike in your total weight for categorisation, hmmmm, another problem, where will it all end......? So anyhow, we'll have W1 (AstraMonti will be in here, and probably most of De Wimmin), W2 (not to be confused with WW2), W3, W4 (fatbloke*, obviously), & WD40 (um, confused yet?).


*@ fatbloke, I've never, to my knowledge, met you, but hey you're asking for it

ROK ON

Sr. Assumpta wrote: »

Like.
Let's reclassify all categories by weight alone, all category changes should be based entirely on weight lost or gained; any mid-season dramatic increase in poundage/evidence of anorexia should be 'rewarded' with an instant up/down-grade.
Next problem is do we include the weight of your race bike in your total weight for categorisation, hmmmm, another problem, where will it all end......? So anyhow, we'll have W1 (AstraMonti will be in here, and probably most of De Wimmin), W2 (not to be confused with WW2), W3, W4 (fatbloke*, obviously), & WD40 (um, confused yet?).


*@ fatbloke, I've never, to my knowledge, met you, but hey you're asking for it

I would be a big advocate ofthis. Although I can think of a few large boned cyclists that would wup my ass, I would still be confident that I could get a few placings in the 90kg plus category.
In fact this would encourage me to combine my love of cycling and eating.

fat bloke

QueensGael wrote: »

I was all set to do the women's race this weekend. However, when I found out (Fri) that the men >50 were going to be lumped in with the women, it really put me off and ultimately I decided not to travel.

I haven't done a whole lot of racing, but I'm not encouraged when I hear it's not even a women's race. When there's already plenty of men's categories available, why is there a need to put men in with the only (formerly) women's race?

I'm not posting this to incite a riot, but genuinely interested to know if this is common and why it's necessary.

Start getting yourself ready for Irelands biggest and best stage race in September. Ras na mBan. 5 days racing with an international field and not a man in sight. The wife is already up to her neck organising it.

Sr. Assumpta

I didn't race in Dundalk yesterday, but I do race a wee bit (W3, W2 on a good day ), and I am female. I'm fairly easy-going about this tbh, it is supposed to be fun and all, so I'm really only contributing here until the other female Boardsies get back from training (was I meant to say that??.......).

In many respects niceonetom's, typically comprehensive, post says it all; a race within a race.....

But I think it's important to also consider that....

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There is ability based licensing though. Women have the same licences as men, i.e. A4, A3, etc. And they can race against men every weekend if they want.

However, nearly every single woman racer I know favours women's races. They'd do mixed races regularly, yes, but usually on days when there's no women's race and their season's goals are all based around women's races.

....... so the way I see it, women have an advantage over men, in that, even when there is a 'Ladies Race', females also have the option of racing within their CI category if they so choose. In Dundalk on Sunday if one of The Ladies decided she felt like a bigger field / less of a challenge she could have opted to do the A4 (or even, for some, the A3) race; only the over 50-year-old men had a similar choice.
Personally, while I enjoyed the few women-only races I took part in, I enjoy racing with the men far more (this could be related to the fact that I feel no pressure to "perform", except that I never feel this; .....I guess I would if I was any good!). If I had been in Dundalk I'd certainly have seized the opportunity to race Beasty though.
It should also be noted that, while I appreciate that everyone ends up doing an amount of travelling, a female who is not Dublin/The Pale-based would be fairly limited if she were only to do 'Ladies Races'.
Anyhow, I will conclude this rather dis-jointed post by saying that largely, I feel lucky to have the option, pity the poor men, they have to wait til they're over 50 before they can have a choice (although, tying myself up in knots here.... maybe The Men would prefer if The Women didn't race with them at all, maybe there's a quiet underclass of men who wish "we" always had our own race and left them the feck alone?? shockhorror!)..

Vlad, Random Capitalisation fyp

Beasty

Pleased to see some women racers contributing to the discussion, as in my view their opinions on this issue are the most important

I know I have plenty of opportunities to race - I'm lucky to be based in Leinster, and as pointed out by morana the IVCA has a heavy Leinster bias, with only a couple of races typically taking place outside the "Greater Dublin" area. I also have access to a great Club League, and track racing at Sundrive. This year I signed up to CI as an A4 - not so much for open racing, but I need the licence for other ambitions I have this year.

When I saw the over 50 category announced following last year's AGM, I thought great - more racing opportunities. However I did not appreciate the potential implications to women's racing.

It's clear to me that this category on a stand-alone basis is really of benefit to racers outside the IVCA catchment area. Indeed I noted that they had a field of 50 (including one woman) at the Masters race at the Phoenix GP yesterday. However I also noted they had to run the Women's and Master's races in the morning, with the Open races in the afternoon, making it an all-day event, and probably a logistical nightmare.

I took the opportunity to sign-on for the "combined" race yesterday for a couple of main reasons. Firstly I've never taken part in an Open race before - perhaps I feel the Club League and vets races are a little more "civilised", and tbh I'm still not very comfortable in a large bunch. The other reason was I wanted to see if there was any benefit to the ladies of running such events. Yes I would have been delighted to win, but that was not the be-all and end-all to me. I wanted to see if the likes of me and other vets taking place could add anything - perhaps different tactics, which may help some of the ladies progress. That's why I didn't mind leading for a large part of the race - pushing the pace up. As pointed out by Tom, there was a bit of a race within a race with me trying to keep Hugh at bay (for the benefit of me and the other people in the lead bunch - he's promised to extract revenge in the track league though).

It became quite clear to me that I was quite a bit stronger than most of the ladies on the flat and could even (surprisingly) hold my own on the drags (that may be as much down to some of the weight I have lost since last year). I suspect it is a category that, when combined with ladies races, I am a bit too strong for, but I needed yesterday's race to prove that, and hopefully I did not spoil anything for any of the other racers (except Hugh of course:)). Even those who had been dropped may well have benefitted from Hugh's experience when trying to close the rest of us down

Anyway, to cut to the chase - I still think the ladies can benefit from the occasional race like yesterday, but it's really the views of those who did take part that counts most. If the view is we add nothing, I for one would have no problem not signing on again. If the view is that we can help the ladies progress in any way, than I would equally be happy to do it again

Whats a derailleur?

Having taken part in Sunday's women's race, I unfortunately have very little to add to what has been said above - except agree with all of it!

As mentioned, there may have been a race within a race, but with just three men in the mix up, it probably didn't make all that much of a difference in the end. I think the experience of some men, who are prepared to work, in the group doesn't do any harm - in fact adds to the group. However, I think the fact there were just three men in the group on Sunday helped (them not take over/become too dominant).

Overall, I had no issue with the men in the group, and if I had to make a call I'd say they brought more positives than negatives to Sunday's race.

However, if there was as many men and women in the group I think it would be a very different story and then what's the point of making any concession towards a 'women's only (well, kind of) race'?

So, overall, while I have no objection to how Sunday's race went and the male presence in it, when the option of racing A4/3 is there, it would be nice to have complete women only races!

fat bloke

Sr. Assumpta wrote: »

*@ fatbloke, I've never, to my knowledge, met you, but hey you're asking for it

Ha ha ha. Don't knock the wider gentlemen. There's nothing better than a powerful fatty to sit behind into a headwind!:D

QueensGael

Thanks everyone for your comments, it certainly made for a lively debate!

I'm still not totally convinced of the benefit to having men >50 and women together; it seems to me the issues of inexperience/overly-aggressive riding in the A4 men's races need to be sorted there, and allow the women's field to build organically. It's tough enough as a newbie racer going out against the likes of the top three ladies in this instance, not to mind mixing it up with some grizzly veterans!

Anyhoo, I may indeed end up doing a mixed event before the summer is out, so I'll comment more then. For now, I'm at least lucky enough to have sufficient women-only races around the Pale to keep me entertained

Thanks again!

Beasty

I suspect one of the reasons for this being only open to over 50s is that they are generally much less likely to be inexperienced or overly aggressive than other A4s

I think it's useful to experiment with such things, and wanted to encourage the debate. I would certainly encourage you to give one of these events a go (if anyone dares running another!). Based on my own experience of Sunday, I would be prepared to do another, unless those who actually rode against me were generally against it. I see this as an opportunity to help move womens racing along. If anyone chooses not to race because men are present, that's very unfortunate. However when it actually comes to signing on they will already have taken that decision, so whether I personally take part is unlikely to have influenced it.

mc2000

I wanted to add a little bit onto the end of the discussion here, in terms of opportunities that exist for women cyclists to get into racing.

In particular, for women aged 35 and over, the rule for women being able to race with the IVCA is exactly that - i.e. female and in your 35th year and over: http://www.ivca.info/aboutivca.shtml [i.e. for 2012 you'll be 35 at some stage in 2012, so you could for example be 34 now and you'd be able to race].

In particular, due to the way the IVCA have the 6 groups of ability, what pans out (in my experience) is that this is a bit more of a chance for women to have a go at racing, especially (but not limited to) where they find the A4 races just too much of an ask. With the CI racing, sometimes the issue can be that the A4 race gets combined with an A3 race, and to some people that just ends up being way too hard - also some of the A4 only races are in themselves very very hard.

While the races do have a Greater Dublin bias, there is also a key aspect to the IVCA races that makes them very "family friendly" (where this is an issue in your household ) in that the IVCA races are run early on Sunday mornings - so your usually back at home by 1 or 1.30pm, allowing you to do all the family stuff and running around and you've the rest of the day free (well at least in my experience it's a deal-maker - otherwise there'd be no racing for me on Sundays). The racing calendar with the IVCA is also excellent, there typically isn't major "holes" opening up during the year, and you've fairly consistent access to racing from the end of March to the first week in September.

My own opinion, is that the IVCA races give you much more of a chance to bridge the gap between leisure/touring where you're starting to build up good endurance and miles, and what you'd like now is some speed, but not so much that you're getting shelled out the back, and demoralised.

If you get round with a bunch, you'll like it, find it more rewarding. If you find it more rewarding, you'll enjoy it. If you enjoy it you'll keep doing it. If you keep doing it, you'll improve and improve.

kincsem

feck sake lads wrote: »

my take on it is leave the women to race there own races.. there will be a lot of very experienced over 50's in a combined race, guys that would have raced all there lives and know how to just sit there for the entire race then pop out at the last couple hundred meters. there only playing with the ladys at this time watch what happens when the season really gets going.

"Ladies and Stalkers"

fat bloke

mc2000 wrote: »

there is also a key aspect to the IVCA races that makes them very "family friendly" (where this is an issue in your household ) in that the IVCA races are run early on Sunday mornings - so your usually back at home by 1 or 1.30pm, allowing you to do all the family stuff and running around and you've the rest of the day free

I think this is a very important point, and it's a pity other races/leagues don't do the same. Regardless of "cat" it's still amateur racing, and people have children and wives and husbands and lives, not to mention pets, mistresses and everything else :pac:.

Anyone I know who goes training gets their a$$ out of bed early on a weekend morning, on the bike for 9 at the latest, so you can still do 4 hours training and be back home at a reasonable hour. The open race schedule of leaving the house at 9 or 10 to sign on for 11, to race at 1.... by the time the race is run and you've changed and returned home, it could be half 5 or 6 o clock. So the day is gone and you're also too fcuked tired to anything but eat and hit the couch or the hay. In addition to that, you might also have been out training the previous day. That's fine if you're single/unemployed/divorced or soon to be, but it's a big ask for.... norms.

Beasty

Could I just get clarification on one thing concerning women's racing. A lot of those I rode against at Dundalk are actually A3s. Is it necessary for women who wish to take part in Stage races to be at least A3? If so, is this not a bit of an issue, in that some women may be "electing" for A3 when they may be better off in A4 for Open races, and may actually disincentivise women taking part in such races

It would also add a little to the argument that those who are eligible should perhaps consider IVCA racing, where they may be more likely to find their natural level to compete at (with the incentive to progress to the faster groups if they show improvement, or drop to the slower ones if they struggle in perhaps a less formal environment than Open racing)

I wouls also add that there are not really that many women taking part in the IVCA events, and I would encourage anyone who does qualify, whatever their ability, to give it a go if they want some racing experience

fat bloke

Beasty wrote: »

I would encourage anyone who does qualify, whatever their ability, to give it a go if they want some racing experience

Don't get me started on the IVCA's age-ist agenda. If i could afford it I'd see you guys in court . Til then, I'm just wishing the days away to my 40th. . 2015 can't come soon enough!!!

C3PO

fat bloke wrote: »

Don't get me started on the IVCA's age-ist agenda. If i could afford it I'd see you guys in court . Til then, I'm just wishing the days away to my 40th. . 2015 can't come soon enough!!!

In an ideal world, you and me could do some kind of an "age swop" ..... I could do with losing a few years!