Suffolk Street overload

Conway635

I've been meaning to post this for some time now, but witnessing a particular movement on Saturday has finally confirmed my belief that Suffolk Street is dangerously overloaded in terms of the number of bus stopping movements that take place within a small and very confined physical area.

The large number of routes stopping there is such that the distinction between the two different stops is hard to maintain, and the street is often packed with buses seeking a bit of kerbspace in which to load/unload. The narrow pavements make the problem worse too, as the number of passengers waiting and moving around each other is quite large.

On Saturday I saw a far from rare situation in which many of the elements which contributed to the tragedy at Wellington Quay were in place.

An Aircoach and a Dublin Bus were beside the pavement loading at the forward of the two stops, while about two thirds of a bus length back a Bus Eireann 100X coach was loading for Dundalk. A 46A came along the outside of the BE vehicle, and unable to fit into the space, stopped in the outside lane to let a lot of people off, while a crowd of some dozen or so surged forward onto the road to board it.

At this point, I rather hoped that the BE coach was in neutral with the parking brake on, because otherwise those getting on and off the 46A were boxed in on three sides by a wall of buses, and the narrow pavement was thronging with people. If one single point of failure (driver or vehicle) caused the BE coach to move forward unexpectedly, there would have been no way for these people to get out of the way.

Of course nothing untoward happened. Nothing does, 9,999 times out of 10,000. But by not having proper loading space in place, the layers of safety which prevent that 1 in ten thousand event are stripped away.

Apart from the safety aspect, which worries me, it must be hell from drivers to operate through. It's not that pleasent for the passengers either, too little space, hard to know where your bus will pull up, if it will be at the stop, or do you need to run back past other buses to board it.

This is the kind of problem that the NTA should be looking at and adressing.

So what could we do, accepting that we don't want to remove the routes themselves?

First off, we should remove the stops for tour buses and slow loading coaches (DB, Dualway, Aircoach and BE) from Suffolk Street. Perhaps there could be a rearrangment of stops in Dawson Street, so instead of many buses stopping wtice, they stop once, and a stop at the bottom could be freed up for the coach and tour services.

Priority for stopping space should be given to the cross-city routes, perhaps the 15A/B could be rerouted via Westland Row?

I'm sure the brains at the NTA could come up with a solution, but believe me, this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

C635

AlekSmart

Conway635 wrote: »

I've been meaning to post this for some time now, but witnessing a particular movement on Saturday has finally confirmed my belief that Suffolk Street is dangerously overloaded in terms of the number of bus stopping movements that take place within a small and very confined physical area.

The large number of routes stopping there is such that the distinction between the two different stops is hard to maintain, and the street is often packed with buses seeking a bit of kerbspace in which to load/unload. The narrow pavements make the problem worse too, as the number of passengers waiting and moving around each other is quite large.

On Saturday I saw a far from rare situation in which many of the elements which contributed to the tragedy at Wellington Quay were in place.

An Aircoach and a Dublin Bus were beside the pavement loading at the forward of the two stops, while about two thirds of a bus length back a Bus Eireann 100X coach was loading for Dundalk. A 46A came along the outside of the BE vehicle, and unable to fit into the space, stopped in the outside lane to let a lot of people off, while a crowd of some dozen or so surged forward onto the road to board it.

At this point, I rather hoped that the BE coach was in neutral with the parking brake on, because otherwise those getting on and off the 46A were boxed in on three sides by a wall of buses, and the narrow pavement was thronging with people. If one single point of failure (driver or vehicle) caused the BE coach to move forward unexpectedly, there would have been no way for these people to get out of the way.

Of course nothing untoward happened. Nothing does, 9,999 times out of 10,000. But by not having proper loading space in place, the layers of safety which prevent that 1 in ten thousand event are stripped away.

Apart from the safety aspect, which worries me, it must be hell from drivers to operate through. It's not that pleasent for the passengers either, too little space, hard to know where your bus will pull up, if it will be at the stop, or do you need to run back past other buses to board it.

This is the kind of problem that the NTA should be looking at and adressing.

So what could we do, accepting that we don't want to remove the routes themselves?

First off, we should remove the stops for tour buses and slow loading coaches (DB, Dualway, Aircoach and BE) from Suffolk Street. Perhaps there could be a rearrangment of stops in Dawson Street, so instead of many buses stopping wtice, they stop once, and a stop at the bottom could be freed up for the coach and tour services.

Priority for stopping space should be given to the cross-city routes, perhaps the 15A/B could be rerouted via Westland Row?

I'm sure the brains at the NTA could come up with a solution, but believe me, this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

C635

Absolutely 100% in agreement.

Top Post Conway635.

I would go further and suggest that you send a hard copy by registered post to the Chief Executive of the NTA with copies to the Asst Garda Commissioner for the DMA and to Noel Brett CX of the Road Safety Authority.

The Dawson st-Suffolk St-Church Lane alignment has for some years now been massively overladen with Bus Routes,which also have to compete with Brewery Drays unloading on the Church Lane corner in addition to Garda escorted Cash movements around the various Banks on the Street.

However,with the increase in cross city routing and the relatively recent addition of long-dwell,luggage handling services such as Aircoach-Bus Eireann and assorted Private Coach Tours this location regularly exceeds the limits for SAFE operation of a PSV.

It is incredible to thionk that this egg-timer of a street carries ALL of the N11 QBC 39/A/46A/145/ journeys as well as assorted Xpresso routes and other non-QBC services.

Added to this are the illegal and dangerous activities of substantial numbers of Taxidrivers who park up and operate a dei-facto rank from the middle of the Pedestrian Crossing on Grafton St.

I would point out however,that this stretch of roadway is actively monitored by both DCC and An Garda Siochana on a 24/7 basis,so your the relevant authorities are well aware of the situation,but choose to ignore it for their own,as yet,secret reasons.

WITHOUT DOUBT,WHEN A SERIOUS ACCIDENT OCCURS ALONG THIS STREET INVOLVING A LARGE PSV,MULTIPLE FATALITIES WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY RESULT.

The only issue will be how many of these Senior Administrators will be charged with Proffessional or Contributory Negligence in relation to it with Corporate Manslaughter being another charge possibly lurking in the background.

At this stage It's just a matter of WHEN it happens,as nobody in Authority appears to have the interest to address the issue. :mad:

Jehuty42

Couldn't agree more. That street is terrifying at the best of times.

ArmaniJeanss

Yep, really hate using that stop on Suffolk St.

If I'm in that area I'd nearly always walk into O'Connell St and get my bus at Easons instead.

Rock of Gibraltar

That street is insane, the road ought to be narrowed to a single bus only lane with a segregated two way cycle track on the northern side and the foot paths widened significantly.
Coaches and other long stay vehicles should be banned, city buses only.

It's a classic example of where the pedestrian should be at the forefront of planning in the city.

ProudDUB

Agree 100%. The place is a death trap waiting to happen. No way should coaches and non Dublin Bus buses be allowed to stop there. The narrowness of the street can't support it. Add in the large amount of foot traffic from the Avoca shop, the post office and all the pubs and restaurants nearby, its only a matter of time before someone is inadvertently pushed in front of a bus and killed.

cson

Westmoreland St is a joke too in terms of the amount of coaches stopping there.

Isn't there some kind of bus only bridge mooted just up above O'Connell bridge? Is it part of the Luas one or something like that?

Vahevala

Agree 100%, I go to Suffolk Street every evening to get a bus, usually looking for either a 140/11/46A/38 but it is clogged up with way too many buses/aircoach/bus tours etc

The street is too narrow for it. I have to be on my guard because the buses won't wait to get to the stop if it is too busy, they will pull up at another stop and if you don't see it in time, he will drive past you :(:(

bk

This shows the desperate need for a new bus station right in the center of the city to serve all the tourist and long wait coach services.

So that they can be taken off the streets and people have better facilities.

I believe the car park behind Connolly Station was originally planned for this. It really should go ahead.

Jehuty42

CIE still have notions of building Celtic Tiger offices and apartments on that land, and it's a very rough area to start or end a journey in but yeah, some kind of bus station is needed. Busarus I assume is totally out of the question? Demolishing Hawkins and Apollo Houses and some of the derelict buildings around Tar St might create enough space with good road links.

And the transport only bridge isn't "mooted", it's fully in construction right now.

Cool Mo D

A quick fix(ish) that could be done is to reverse the direction of traffic on Saint Andrew Street, so that cars leaving the Trinity Street carpark would be sent down South William street instead. Then, end left turns from Suffolk street to Dame street. This would eliminate private traffic from Suffolk street, and stop buses piling up behind taxis turning left onto Dame street.

AngryLips

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

That street is insane, the road ought to be narrowed to a single bus only lane

It's a pretty unpleasant street to be a padestrian alright. I agree with increasing the size of the pavements but the problem is it needs to remain two lanes to facilitate the loading and unloading of busses without blocking through-traffic of other busses.

Some possible alternatives I can think of in order to reduce it to a single bus-only lane is to move the two bus stops; with one on the street outside the tourist information office and another closer the traffic lights where Suffolk Street joins College Green. It would require changing the directions of some of the other one-way streets and in itself wouldn't be an ideal solution but it would relieve the stress on Suffolk Street.

The more viable solution, IMO, is to route more busses down George's Street since this street is at least better suited to such intense traffic.

bk

Jehuty42 wrote: »

CIE still have notions of building Celtic Tiger offices and apartments on that land, and it's a very rough area to start or end a journey in but yeah, some kind of bus station is needed. Busarus I assume is totally out of the question? Demolishing Hawkins and Apollo Houses and some of the derelict buildings around Tar St might create enough space with good road links.

No reason they can't do both, bus station in the first two or three floors, apartments and offices over it.

While it is a slightly rough area, this sort of development is what is needed to improve it and it is just right next to the swanky IFSC district, so even with the recession, offices here should still sell well.

I'd imagine the problem is who owns and operates it? CIE won't want to give up the land, but such a facility should really be operated by the NTA, as it will be catering primarily to private bus companies (e.g. Aircoach, Citylink, GoBus, etc.) with perhaps some BE overflow and I couldn't see them being happy with CIE (Bus Eireann) operating the show.

Perhaps the solution would be for the government to allow CIE close busaras, demolish it and rebuild it as offices, in exchange for allowing the NTA to operate a new bus station in Connolly, which would cater for both the private operators and BE and perhaps also allow CIE to own the offices over the new bus station.

That way everyone ones and we have nice integrated public transport, with excellent links to DART, commuter rail, LUAS.

Tara St. would be another good potential location.

You could also do it at Hueston, but I think Connolly would be a better location as it has better transport connections (Dart, Port Tunnel to the airport and M50) and is closer to where people want to go (walking distance from the city center and IFSC).

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Perhaps the solution would be for the government to allow CIE close busaras, demolish it and rebuild it as offices, in exchange for allowing the NTA to operate a new bus station in Connolly, which would cater for both the private operators and BE and perhaps also allow CIE to own the offices over the new bus station.

Busaras has an order slapped on it so it can't just be knocked down on a whim, sadly. Also, the DSP has it's head office upstairs and CIE would need to find alternative accommodation in lieu.

KD345

bk wrote: »

This shows the desperate need for a new bus station right in the center of the city to serve all the tourist and long wait coach services.

So that they can be taken off the streets and people have better facilities.

I believe the car park behind Connolly Station was originally planned for this. It really should go ahead.

While a bus station at Connolly would be great, would it help the situation at Suffolk Street? There is a demand for all of these buses in the area, just not necessarily at the same location on Suffolk Street. Connolly station is not a convenient location for a lot of Aircoach passengers on the south side, and tour buses by their nature need to stop close to attractions.

Perhaps a suggestion would be use the last two stops on Dawson Street for the Aircoach, Tours and Bus Eireann services only and keep Suffolk Street for Dublin Bus. There is very little walk between both stops.

miller50841

Just so you know all dublin bus fleet are fitted with door brakes but totally agree with what your saying sure also most stops busses try and get into are blocked by taxis or vans but mostly taxi P****s

LXFlyer

There needs to be a fully comprehensive review of the entire bus network in Dublin, and a full set of appropriate standards developed and applied to all bus stops.

There are serious deficiencies all across the city in bus stop design, with no standard design applied, together with the ludicrous situations in the city centre where unofficial taxi ranks appear with abandon, taxis park in marked bus stop areas, and don't get me started on the Westmoreland street stop where the same stop area is shared by Dublin Bus, Aircoach, Dublin Coach and Mortons, which is a disgrace.

It is frankly a serious accident waiting to happen.

The NTA need to rapidly develop and apply standards in this area similar to those developed by TfL in London over five years ago!!

These are available on the TfL website as below:

Bus Stop Design:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/accessibile_bus_stop_design_guidance.pdf

Traffic Calming Measures for Bus Routes:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/trafficcalmingmeasuresleaflet-rev-final.pdf

Any notion of implementing multiple-door bus operation needs to be put on hold until a full audit is completed and standards such as those above are implemented.

As for Suffolk Street, I would simply remove the stop for many of the Dublin Bus services there. Any operating west along the Quays can serve the stops at the lower part of Dawson Street and then Aston Quay, those serving O'Connell Street can stop in Dawson Street and then Westmoreland Street. It is not that far a walk to either. At a stroke that leaves only a small number of Dublin Bus routes stopping there, and frees one entire stop up for Bus Eireann/Aircoach.

bk

KD345 wrote: »

While a bus station at Connolly would be great, would it help the situation at Suffolk Street? There is a demand for all of these buses in the area, just not necessarily at the same location on Suffolk Street. Connolly station is not a convenient location for a lot of Aircoach passengers on the south side, and tour buses by their nature need to stop close to attractions.

Obviously it doesn't help with the tour guide buses, but it would help with Aircoach, BE, etc.

As for Connolly being inconvenient for people on the south side, not when LUAS BXD gets built. You simply ban these commuter and coach services from the streets and make them use the new coach station at Connolly.

While some would be inconvenienced, it would make for a safer and more pleasant experience overall.

Jehuty42

bk wrote: »

As for Connolly being inconvenient for people on the south side, not when LUAS BXD gets built.

Get off bus, walk to Connolly Luas stop, wait, get on Luas, get off two stops later at Abbey St, walk to Marlborough St Luas stop, wait, get on Luas, get off in southside?

bk

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Get off bus, walk to Connolly Luas stop, wait, get on Luas, get off two stops later at Abbey St, walk to Marlborough St Luas stop, wait, get on Luas, get off in southside?

Yes, that is the reality of must integrated transport systems in most cities.

We really have to get away from the idea of trying to please everyone and having a bus stop every 100 meters, just in case it was more convenient for the odd person.

Our city is a small city, with narrow, medieval streets and it is currently choked by massive numbers of taxis and buses, making it an unpleasant and even dangerous place for pedestrians.

So yes, some people may have to be inconvenienced for the sake of the greater good.

schemingbohemia

Simplest measure would be just to remove all stops apart from the Tour Buses from there.

Next issue is to space or remove some buses from using the same stop on Westmoreland Street, the one lxflyer refers to above.

Jehuty42

bk wrote: »

So yes, some people may have to be inconvenienced for the sake of the greater good.

But you said Connolly won't be inconvenient for people going to the south side when LUAS BXD gets built.

bk

Jehuty42 wrote: »

But you said Connolly won't be inconvenient for people going to the south side when LUAS BXD gets built.

It would inconvenience a very small minority of people.

However it would be better for the vast majority of people who live on the south side.

Anyone living on the southside along the DART line or the two LUAS line would now have a direct connection to this central bus station.

Only a relatively small number of people who live in the south inner city would suffer a minor inconvenience. But really you have to look at the bigger picture.

Even these people might find it better, better to wait in a nice comfortable sheltered bus station then out on the side of the street in the cold and rain and more importantly the dangers of so many buses around the streets.

HydeRoad

What stands out for me, is that while an enormous responsibility is placed on the individual driver to stop correctly and safely at the bus stop at all times, in order to prevent accidents and claims, absolutely no similar responsibility is conferred on the anonymous individual in a warm office somewhere, who sees fit to visit ten or twenty busy, high frequency bus routes together at one congested bus stop. Either there is realistic attention to safety, or there is not. The operator cannot create such impossible circumstances as pertain in Suffolk Street, and then demand that each individual driver perform safely on peril of disciplinary action, or worse.

Responsibility, of course, should spread beyond simply the bus operators, to those vested with the overall development plan for the city. The whole dynamic of Dame Street, O'Connell Bridge, St. Stephen's Green and the Quays simply does not work, and has not done so for decades. There has never even been any recognition of this, much less any attempts to rectify it. The rearrangements of traffic around St. Stephen's Green were necessitated by the shoehorning into one side of the Green, an ill-considered and incomplete tramway line, and were done with as little sense of good traffic flow or use of available space as could be imagined. The end result was something very temporary and unfinished, with no apparent appetite to fine tune it or even assess the ongoing suitability or safety of it.

The 'Bus Gate' in College Green is a very cheap and ill-thought out response to the requirements of bus movements in the immediate area, and while it has made some difference to headway, it is very poorly planned and supervised. It makes little or no contribution to the fact that there is simply far too much needless ingress of general traffic into an area that simply cannot cope with it. Why is there so much through traffic still using the Dame Street and Dawson Street corridors? Why can it not be made as disadvantageous as possible to traffic to use these congested areas, while still allowing in those who must have access?

Simply peeling a few bus route numbers off the bus stop pole in Suffolk Street will not deal with the more fundamental issues affecting the area. Tour coaches do need to make a left turn from Church Lane to Dame Street, bound for the mediaeval area of the city. It is not feasible to ask tourists to do a long loop around Westland Row, while missing Molly Malone's statue, the main shopping area of Grafton Street, and the main tourist office in St. Andrew's Street. Perhaps if there was less general traffic using Dame Street, buses could have a slightly longer green exiting Church Lane. Though as part of a wider perspective of the whole problem, I would ask why buses cannot use Grafton Street northbound directly into College Green, and avoid Suffolk Street altogether, as part of a wholesale reorganisation of traffic flow.

The spectre of LUAS in the next few years gives an opportunity to throw everything into the melting pot. It also, unfortunately, in the wrong hands, offers the worry of making things immensely worse, and wasting the opportunity to create a final and long lasting solution to traffic problems. I would suggest that the LUAS proposals as appear to be agreed, are already an ill-considered proposal, given the usual nonsense of those conferred with the reponsibility of it's implementation, having no evident remit to consider all the other traffic issues as a whole picture.

There are plenty of alternative options to consider, and I would suggest simply juggling bus numbers on poles is the least of them.

AlekSmart

HydeRoad wrote: »

There are plenty of alternative options to consider, and I would suggest simply juggling bus numbers on poles is the least of them.

HydeRoad,our State's current perilous position proves that number juggling is our best,and possibly only strength...considering options is not something we excel at doing.

ProudDUB

KD345 wrote: »

While a bus station at Connolly would be great, would it help the situation at Suffolk Street? There is a demand for all of these buses in the area, just not necessarily at the same location on Suffolk Street. Connolly station is not a convenient location for a lot of Aircoach passengers on the south side, and tour buses by their nature need to stop

Agree. Connolly/Busaras is a good 20 minute wall from Suffolk St. Tour buses and coaches are stopping in the Suffolk St area as that is where the tourist hot spots of Trinity College, Grafton St, the National Gallery, shops such as Avoca & Kilkenny Design etc etc are. Tour companies would soon go out of business if they let their passengers out in junkie central that is the Busaras/Connolly station area, and they are then told to make their own way back over to the Grafton St/Trinity College area. The Grafton St area needs a dedicated, purpose built, safe bus/coach pick up and drop off area that does not negatively impact pedestrians or other motorists. However, the odds of that happening are slim as we are talking about the most expensive real estate in the country.

Then again, given how cramped & congested our inner city is, what right do tourists have to be taken right up to the front door of attractions that they are visiting? It's not exactly cruel and inhumane to drop people off at one central bus stop, and be told that they have to navigate a whopping 1.5 miles in either direction on their own if they want to see Dublins tourist attractions.

HydeRoad

ProudDUB wrote: »

Then again, given how cramped & congested our inner city is, what right do tourists have to be taken right up to the front door of attractions that they are visiting? It's not exactly cruel and inhumane to drop people off at one central bus stop, and be told that they have to navigate a whopping 1.5 miles in either direction on their own if they want to see Dublins tourist attractions.

During the peak tourist season of July and August, large cruise ships descend on the port of Dublin on almost a daily basis. On a good day, two ships might berth in Alexandra Pier, disgorging literally thousands of tourists for an afternoon. Forty or more private hire coaches will collect these tourists, and take them on tours ranging from Glendalough and Wicklow, to dozens of variations on a city tour, usually congregating at St. Patrick's Cathedral, and of course, at Nassau Street. These afternoon visits contribute millions to the local economy, and are a staple of many of the central city businesses, who rely on it to cover a dry off season period.

Chaos ensues, as up to thirty or forty coaches circulate, expected to drop their lucrative clients, and then simply vanish in a puff of smoke, because there is nowhere to lay over. Kildare Street is generally used as the focal point of the shuttle services, as it is the only bit of kerbside left without a line of Dublin Bus vehicles waiting to pull in. Meanwhile, touring coaches bunch for parking space on Nassau Street, waiting for tourists doing the Book of Kells tour. A Dublin Bus inspector regularly does a berserk little dance up and down with a red face, bawling at the coach drivers to clear the Dublin Bus stops, and calling the Gardai to move them on. Well and good, he is trying to keep his services moving, but those coaches have to stop and drop, and there is simply nowhere for them to do so. Bawling at the coach drivers solves nothing, and anyway the Gardai generally look on impassively, as there is little they can do either.

It is not an answer that these coaches should simply disappear away off to some dark, unwanted corner of the city. They contribute too much to the economy of the city. They have their job to do, just like everyone else.

The point is, that everyone has their own reason for needing their square foot of space, and the solutions to the congestion need to take everything into account. Simply tweaking one thing, without looking at the bigger picture, just doesn't work. The limited city space is badly shared out, both bus stops, traffic lanes, and pedestrian footpaths, and an overall plan that takes everything into account together, is badly needed.

markpb

HydeRoad wrote: »

During the peak tourist season of July and August, large cruise ships descend on the port of Dublin on almost a daily basis. On a good day, two ships might berth in Alexandra Pier, disgorging literally thousands of tourists for an afternoon. Forty or more private hire coaches will collect these tourists, and take them on tours ranging from Glendalough and Wicklow, to dozens of variations on a city tour, usually congregating at St. Patrick's Cathedral, and of course, at Nassau Street.

Taormina in Sicily has a similar problem so they built a multi-story car park on the edge of the town (a five minute walk away) with specific parking and access for the buses from the cruise lines. They also provide toilet facilities for the drivers and passengers as well as water for the drivers to clean the buses while they're waiting. It's an excellent facility and makes it a pleasure for everyone. I'm not saying DCC should be doing exactly the same but it's a massive market and a huge money spinner - it would be nice to see the council being a bit more progressive.

jameverywhere

haha, just ban cars in the city centre. buses, bicycles, and LUAS only.

and I guess MAYBE taxis and mopeds/motorcycles.

Tourists and commuters can use Dublinbikes if the bus or LUAS doesn't suit.


There, I solved your problem. :pac:

dfx-

I would've thought Suffolk Street is such a bottleneck that the busier it is, the safer it is.

Certainly whenever I've been there when there's extra Harristown Euro Duties here, there and everywhere in the evening and the street gets clogged up, there's no room to move to knock over a fly than anything or anyone else.

monument

Surely the problem could be vastly solved by restricting none bus traffic?

Start with making sure vans are not on the street at the morning and evening rush hours.

cast_iron

dfx- wrote: »

I would've thought Suffolk Street is such a bottleneck that the busier it is, the safer it is.

In a way, yes.
The premise of the OP's point is that if a bus lost control, catastrophe would ensue. Which it well may. However, all it takes is one out of control bus, so I'm not sure how congestion can be blamed.

That doesn't take from the fact that Suffolk street is indeed very congested.

Conway635

cast_iron wrote: »

In a way, yes.
The premise of the OP's point is that if a bus lost control, catastrophe would ensue. Which it well may. However, all it takes is one out of control bus, so I'm not sure how congestion can be blamed.

Unintended bus movements happen, not frequently, but on rare occasions, as do accidental leap forwards of cars etc - a moment's lack of concentration, or an unexpected behaviour of vehicle. However, 99.9% of these very rare incidents never cause a problem, because there is space around the bus, and the passengers are boarding safely from the kerb.

What happened on Wellington Quay was an unintended bus movement. The reasons were debated in court, however it has never been clearly defined why the bus moved - but it moved.

What turned it from a minor "oops" moment into a tragedy was the fact that due to lack of space at a cramped terminus, a whole bunch of passengers had stepped in front of it off the pavement to board another bus, which would not get in to the kerb because of lack of space. Those passengers were in a vulnerable position, boxed in between buses with nowhere to go if the rear one moved unexpectedly, as it did.

What I was pointing out was that in Suffolk Street, due to bus stop congestion, the exact circumstances are being repeated on a routine basis - too many buses serving the stops, passengers moving out onto the roadway to board buses in the outside lane which can't find any room to address the bus stop, and thus putting themselves at risk if an unintended movement should happen.

The particular incident I described placed about a dozen passengers on the street directly in front of a loading Bus Eireann coach, with a Dublin Bus a few feet ahead, and the bus they were boarding in the outside lane (not enough space to pull in). If the coach had moved unexpectedly, those passengers, walled in on three sides by buses, had no means of quick escape.

The extreme bus congestion is causing this unsafe boarding to happen frequently, thus stripping away a layer of protection (passengers safely on footpath) that might make the difference when a one in ten thousand accidental movement happens.

The congestion does not cause the unintended bus movement, but by contributing to unsafe boarding practices it causes a risk of more grave consequences if it does take place.

Sadly, after Wellington Quay all attention was focussed on why the bus moved forward, and the issue of the layout of the terminus and the reason for the passengers being on the road in front of it (too many routes terminating in too small a space) was not subject to scrutiny.

C635

Vahevala

I was there again yesterday evening, one of the bus stops on Suffolk Street alone has 21 buses scheduled to stop there. Insane. :eek::eek:

AngryLips

Vahevala wrote: »

I was there again yesterday evening, one of the bus stops on Suffolk Street alone has 21 buses scheduled to stop there. Insane. :eek::eek:

Is this the number of distinct bus routes or the actual number of timetabled busses? Keep in mind many bus routes might only run once or twice a day such as the xpresso services.

jameverywhere

I was there around half five a few days ago and from suffolk street all the way thru o'connell st I think the whole DB fleet was out, cramming into that small stretch of roads... and trying to squish me on my puny bicycle


it was literally like buses only in a stream in both lanes off Dame street with maybe a taxi or two pushing in-between them

trellheim

if BXD begins building these routes will either go down via Georges St or have to route via ( I'm trying to think of a re-route ) , the 15 for example would need to re-route via Adelaide Road, Fitzwilliam Square. Now I'm stuck. How do I get a double-decker under the DART line ? I can't get to Westland row because there's no right turn at Fenian St.
Ah, the solution is to push them down Merrion Sq, Clare St etc.

The only alternative I can think of is reversing the flow on Kildare St, that will mean fun for any public transport trying to drop off and make for absolute hilarity for any businesses trying to drop stock off at Grafton St ( think trying to get the Artic that resupplies Marks and Sparks in )

Rock of Gibraltar

This street needs calming, I think part of the problem is that it has two lanes. That entices drivers to jostle for position, creating a stressed and dangerous environment.

I'd ban tour coaches from Suffolk St, put them in a underused side street in the area like Molesworth St.
Ban on Aircoaches and Bus Eireann coaches, they can go down Westland Row.

I'd create a single bus only lane, widening the footpath on the southern side and creating a two way cycle lane on the northern. Have a single bus stop at the far western end at the former St. Andrews church, removing the old railings around the church to create more space for pedestrians.

Buses can simply queue and wait, with a working electronic timetable board you'd know where your bus is coming in the queue and can walk down the stopping area accordingly. With a single lane your bus would always be kerbside so no walking out in front of other buses.
I reckon you might get four or five buses queuing at one time, that's no big deal.

There's a similar situation at this stop in Utrecht in the Netherlands
http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=52.093439,5.117022&hl=en&num=1&t=h&z=18
Difference is that its a two way street but buses never overtake each other here.
Probably gets a similar level of bus traffic, but the buses are often articulated or double articulated so much longer than Dublin buses.
The stop works well, its calm and efficient.

However to make something like that work in Dublin we'd need to get rid of the archaic loading system on Dublin buses. I reckon loading takes a quarter of the time in the Netherlands, with multiple doors (three on a normal sized single decker) and proper integrated electronic ticketing.

devnull

I'm not sure why there is all this anti Bus Eireann, anti Aircoach and anti Tour buses opinion on the forum. Because quite frankly how many years have those stops been there? Many many years in most cases, when they were originally put in there was nowhere near the number of vehicles going down that road that there is at the moment.

The problem that there is down Suffolk Street has been a product of Network Direct, plain and simple. Since network direct Dublin Bus has routed so many extra buses down that street which as resulted the dangerous situation that there is ongoing now. I think we will all agree that is an accident waiting to happen no matter what side of the fence we are on.

However the policy should be that the last routes to go there recently, should be the first out unless the operator wants to move some other of their services to prevent them having to move another one. The situation should never have developed in the first place as when DB asked to run more vehicles down there they should have been simply refused on the grounds that the road was already too crowded.

Also I've seen in other countries where operator A deliberately stopped as many vehicles as possible at a certain stop, cry foul that there are too many stops there and Operator B needs to move (Despite the fact the operator B was there for many many years before the arrival of masses of vehicles from operator A). Operator B is forced to move and Operator A has road to self. Operator A then can play this game several times over, to bully operator B out of the most lucrative stops.

So what I would do is I would move a few of the Dublin Bus services out of Suffolk Street, try and split the frequency of Dublin Bus stops evenly between their two stops there (The one by the tours, BE, AC stops has far more frequent services than the one before it). I would also spread the DB services out more evenly on Westmoreland Street, remove the Dublin Coach stop from Westmoreland Street (Last in, first out principle)

Jehuty42

Yup, Network Direct created a lot more cross-city routes, but unfortunately the only south-north route cross city seems to be through Suffolk St.

dfx-

How do we deal with the people who freeze instead of running away? No bus stop is safe. The focus has to be on stopping the movement of the bus...which a bottleneck the style of Suffolk St would be a prime example in my opinion. Would a VT or indeed any bus be able to mount the kerb on that street? I would very much doubt it.

Would a bus be able to gather any momentum in a jerking movement before hitting another bus or street furniture on that street? I doubt it. The bus would have to be out of control at speed.

Jehuty42

A bus wouldn't need to mount the kerb- people have to walk onto the road, in a small gab between buses stopped in the first lane, out to buses stopped in the outer lane due to not being able to get at the bus stops. All it takes is for one of those buses in the first lane to jerk forward and close that gap occupied by passengers, and a whole bunch of people will be crushed.

stop

dfx- wrote: »

How do we deal with the people who freeze instead of running away? No bus stop is safe. The focus has to be on stopping the movement of the bus...which a bottleneck the style of Suffolk St would be a prime example in my opinion. Would a VT or indeed any bus be able to mount the kerb on that street? I would very much doubt it.

Would a bus be able to gather any momentum in a jerking movement before hitting another bus or street furniture on that street? I doubt it. The bus would have to be out of control at speed.

VTs mount the kerb daily outside O'Neils, compare it now to then.

HydeRoad

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I'd ban tour coaches from Suffolk St, put them in a underused side street in the area like Molesworth St.
Ban on Aircoaches and Bus Eireann coaches, they can go down Westland Row.

Have you read any of the other posts on this thread? That simply will not work. Have you ever tried turning a bus into Molesworth Street from either Kildare Street or Dawson Street? Try it some time, and then come back with some better ideas. When the bus finally makes it round into Molesworth Street, then where does it go?

Just like all the college educated engineers who design Dublin's streets with their crayons, who never sat behind the wheel of a large bus or lorry in their life. They haven't a bloody clue. Let the buses go 'somewhere else...'

Wait till this LUAS arrives. Those engineers have no remit to consider anyone or anything else in the vicinity, either. Then all the buses, coaches, and tour buses, will all have to go 'somewhere else.' I'd like to know where that 'somewhere else' is, because the city authorities, traffic authorities, and anyone else, seem to think buses materialise out of the mist, and disappear similarly back into that same mist...

The solution inevitably must involve an overall picture of the entire city centre dynamic, and everything and everyone that needs to use it. Piecemeal solutions have never and will not work.

monument

I think there are a few too many posts here hyping the danger, I say that as somebody who has the incident at the stop on the quays burned into my mind. But the Rock of Gibraltar seems to be the only poster to come up with a solution as to nearly cut the chances of buses jumping on kerbs to zero.

devnull wrote: »

I'm not sure why there is all this anti Bus Eireann, anti Aircoach and anti Tour buses opinion on the forum. Because quite frankly how many years have those stops been there?

It does not matter how many years something like a bus stop has been there in the past. Other cities like London have bus lanes and bus only streets which only include 'local' bus services.

devnull wrote: »

Many many years in most cases, when they were originally put in there was nowhere near the number of vehicles going down that road that there is at the moment.

The problem that there is down Suffolk Street has been a product of Network Direct, plain and simple. Since network direct Dublin Bus has routed so many extra buses down that street which as resulted the dangerous situation that there is ongoing now. I think we will all agree that is an accident waiting to happen no matter what side of the fence we are on.

However the policy should be that the last routes to go there recently, should be the first out unless the operator wants to move some other of their services to prevent them having to move another one. The situation should never have developed in the first place as when DB asked to run more vehicles down there they should have been simply refused on the grounds that the road was already too crowded.

Also I've seen in other countries where operator A deliberately stopped as many vehicles as possible at a certain stop, cry foul that there are too many stops there and Operator B needs to move (Despite the fact the operator B was there for many many years before the arrival of masses of vehicles from operator A). Operator B is forced to move and Operator A has road to self. Operator A then can play this game several times over, to bully operator B out of the most lucrative stops.

So what I would do is I would move a few of the Dublin Bus services out of Suffolk Street, try and split the frequency of Dublin Bus stops evenly between their two stops there (The one by the tours, BE, AC stops has far more frequent services than the one before it). I would also spread the DB services out more evenly on Westmoreland Street, remove the Dublin Coach stop from Westmoreland Street (Last in, first out principle)

This Irish kind of thinking is why we need radical BRT (radical for Dublin) which does not compromise where there's no need to.

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

This street needs calming, I think part of the problem is that it has two lanes. That entices drivers to jostle for position, creating a stressed and dangerous environment.

I'd ban tour coaches from Suffolk St, put them in a underused side street in the area like Molesworth St.
Ban on Aircoaches and Bus Eireann coaches, they can go down Westland Row.

I'd create a single bus only lane, widening the footpath on the southern side and creating a two way cycle lane on the northern. Have a single bus stop at the far western end at the former St. Andrews church, removing the old railings around the church to create more space for pedestrians.

Buses can simply queue and wait, with a working electronic timetable board you'd know where your bus is coming in the queue and can walk down the stopping area accordingly. With a single lane your bus would always be kerbside so no walking out in front of other buses.
I reckon you might get four or five buses queuing at one time, that's no big deal.

There's a similar situation at this stop in Utrecht in the Netherlands
http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=52.093439,5.117022&hl=en&num=1&t=h&z=18
Difference is that its a two way street but buses never overtake each other here.
Probably gets a similar level of bus traffic, but the buses are often articulated or double articulated so much longer than Dublin buses.
The stop works well, its calm and efficient.

However to make something like that work in Dublin we'd need to get rid of the archaic loading system on Dublin buses. I reckon loading takes a quarter of the time in the Netherlands, with multiple doors (three on a normal sized single decker) and proper integrated electronic ticketing.

+1 To this post.

What you linked to from the Netherlands is a BRT, bus-only street.

AlekSmart

cast_iron wrote: »

In a way, yes.
The premise of the OP's point is that if a bus lost control, catastrophe would ensue. Which it well may. However, all it takes is one out of control bus, so I'm not sure how congestion can be blamed.

That doesn't take from the fact that Suffolk street is indeed very congested.

With a laden Bus weighing anything between 12 and 23 Tonnes gross,a pedestrian needs to be VERY aware that contact at any speed will do damage.

A laden bus merely creeping forward and sandwiching a person between it and a bus in front will kill in the most awful way possible..

Please Please do not attempt to dilute the importance of Conway635's post,as virtually nobody in authority wants to know about the potential disaster sutting there just awaiting the right combination of events.

Devnull: I'm not sure why there is all this anti Bus Eireann, anti Aircoach and anti Tour buses opinion on the forum. Because quite frankly how many years have those stops been there? Many many years in most cases, when they were originally put in there was nowhere near the number of vehicles going down that road that there is at the moment.

To address Devnull's concerns about antagonism towards specific operators.

The Operator is largely irrelevant in this,but the type of operation involved is VERY much relevant.

The presence of Long Dwell Urban and Coach services in Suffolk St and environs is very much a late development and co-incides with Bus Eireann's extending certain services to The South City and beyond.

In addition the conversion of St Andrews Church into the Dublin Tourism centre brought with it a new dynamic to the area apparently unforseen by the planners.....Tourist's...on foot...in vehicles...lost and/or confused...

The ability of Dublin Citys planners to visualize all Bus & Coach services as identical in terms of infrastructural requirements is truly mind-boggling.

A tri-axle Aircoach arriving into Grafton St from the Airport has a totally different dynamic to a number 7 en-route to Ballybrack....chalk n cheese.

So too the various City-Tour services....it's simple enough really...segregate the long dwell services from the ordinary stage-carriage work and allocate the space required for passengers and staff to interact in SAFETY...The current situation in and around Suffolk St/Nasau St/Grafton St does not allow for an acceptable level of risk and needs urgent rectification NOW.

devnull

Granted Aleksmart yes but to quote my previous post:

Also I've seen in other countries where operator A deliberately stopped as many vehicles as possible at a certain stop, cry foul that there are too many stops there and Operator B needs to move (Despite the fact the operator B was there for many many years before the arrival of masses of vehicles from operator A). Operator B is forced to move and Operator A has road to self. Operator A then can play this game several times over, to bully operator B out of the most lucrative stops.

By removing the type of Operator B as you suggest, you open up to the possibility of the situation being used in Dublin. As there is a prescient set for this as a consequence then obviously this can be abused as it has been in other countries including the UK and we don't want the kind of bus wares they have had there thanks very much.

Unfortunately the above is particularly relevant when you have one bus operator who is much bigger than the rest. I agree that things need to change, but at the same time we have to have a level playing field and if one operator wants to run x amount of extra services stopping down a road knowing that they can force other services to move because they feel they are more important than the rest.

What I do think should happen though is that the Aircoach stop should be moved down to the same location as the Dualway stop that would give a little breathing space at least. It's far too close to the DB one now. Perhaps bus stops could even be moved a little further down that road?

cast_iron

AlekSmart wrote: »

Please Please do not attempt to dilute the importance of Conway635's post,as virtually nobody in authority wants to know about the potential disaster sutting there just awaiting the right combination of events.

Well I suppose my point was that a large number of highly unlikely events would have to happen together for a major disaster to occur. Of course, that's not to say it won't.

It's amazing that so far on this thread not one person has pointed out the fact that no bus driver should be stopping in the middle of the road to let people board the bus.

How about the idea of making the current one way stretch of Grafton St 2 way with a bus lane? There's enough room I'd have thought. It bypasses Sufflolk St and the tight Church Lane stretch altogether.

devnull

Isn't there a taxi rank on the other side of Grafton Street? Not that I'm the biggest fans of Taxi's, particularly those at ranks in the city centre, but I can't imagine them being happy with the removal of them.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if they did though.

cast_iron

devnull wrote: »

Isn't there a taxi rank on the other side of Grafton Street? Not that I'm the biggest fans of Taxi's, particularly those at ranks in the city centre, but I can't imagine them being happy with the removal of them.

Yes, which makes it all the more convenient to convert to a bus lane. With so many informal ranks around the place now anyway, I think it would be worth the sacrifice.

dfx-

stop wrote: »

VTs mount the kerb daily outside O'Neils, compare it now to then.

No-one is going to be boarding a bus there though. I'm talking about the boarding zone so to speak. Looking behind back towards Trinity College on that link, there's an 07 VT parked, that's where I'm talking about. There's barriers on the path left and right to stop the kerb mounting..I simply don't see it happening.

Couldn't the likes of the 15A/B/14 take the 44 style route around to Pearse St towards College Green and leave Suffolk St to the 46a/Lucan/Blanchardstown routes..