[Article] Extra trains costing €20,000/day put on minister's loss-making route

munchkin_utd

Extra trains costing €20,000 per day put on minister's loss-making route

By Paul Melia
Monday February 27 2012
STATE rail company Iarnrod Eireann has added four extra services a day -- at a cost of almost €20,000 per day -- to a loss-making route serving the constituency of the Public Transport Minister.

Alan Kelly's constituency office is in Nenagh in Co Tipperary and the town will benefit from new services to and from Dublin from next Monday, even though the line has long been recommended for closure.

Just 73 people a day currently use the Ballybrophy to Limerick line, which serves the town, generating a paltry €753 a day in fares.

The development was announced last week by Iarnrod Eireann, which said it emerged after consultation with local groups.

But it comes after the junior minister in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, who was elected to the Dail for the first time in March last year, was sharply criticised in September for "encouraging" Iarnrod Eireann to lay on an extra train to bring Tipperary fans to the All-Ireland final.
<snip - more paragraphs on the same and irish rail consultants report>

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/extra-trains-costing-20000-per-day-put-on-ministers-lossmaking-route-3032178.html
€20000 * 6days*52weeks = €4,160,000 its costing for day to day (extra?) weekday services, and presumably excluding any big bang infrastructure and maintenance that occurs.

On a corridor that literally is shadowed by a brand new motorway to Dublin and Limerick .

Not to forget that the train takes 2 hours to travel 80km from Limerick to Ballybrophy at an average speed of 40kph.
Ballybrophy being 3km from a junction onto the 120kph M7 motorway which then could have you into Limerick in a mere 50 min in the car.

Markcheese

Not sure of the current timetable there but, does it make the line more useable. The cobh line was being threatened with closure before they put on a few more peaktime services so punters could actually use the service....
May not be the case here though if no one extra uses it....

mikemac1

Give the line a chance.

For years it seemed Irish Rail did their best to run it into the ground.

Trains arriving in Nenagh in the morning and would get you into Limerick around eleven am and then would leave Limerick after three pm

Perfect for some lunch and some shopping in Limerick but useless for commuters

But hey, the staff got to work a handy nine to five and that's what is important right?
Zero marketing on that line, it was almost run for the staff and not the customers.

Volunteers got organized and surveys were taken at Bus Éireann and JJ Kavanaghs stops and at the rail station. Public meeetings were held and statistics and reports were put out, all done by volunteers

So we got a commuter service and the local politicans who did pretty much nothing jumped in the end and claimed credit :rolleyes:. The only politician who did anything realy was Viriginia O'Dowd, Labour councillor. Success attracts hangers on

But the service struggles badly. Nenagh, Roscrea and Birdhill have superb bus services from BE and JJ Kavanaghs so that is what people go for.

There is potential, tens of thousands leave North Tipp to go to Limerick every morning, a lot of them students but Colbert Station is nowhere near University of Limerick and LIT is on the other side of the city.
If there was a station on the east side of Limerick close to UL with a shuttle bus service it would be a big addition and I believe there was talk of this once.

Twenty six euro Nenagh-Dublin return is great value and is a fare I've used, two hours and twenty minutes to Heuston is a fast service to me.

Alan Kelly has pumped extra services on the line and he's been free and easy with the money in the constituency, lots of other projects in the pipeline too.
It's what ministers do best

The multiple trains to Dublin will be pretty much empty but I do like that the new service gets you to Dublin before nine am. Maybe more trains were not needed but just a shakeup of the times

But the morning and evening commuter services to Limerick has a chance of working but it needs to pushed a lot more, I guess a lot of locals still don't know about it considering it was a terrible service for years.
And eventually the locals will be threatened with use it or lose it

It's pretty slow getting to Limerick though, I don't know a lot about speed restrictions but it always seemed slow to me

Cookie_Monster

mikemac1 wrote: »

Nenagh, Roscrea and Birdhill have superb bus services from BE and JJ Kavanaghs

Nuff said...

Honestly, why even bother with the rail line under the circumstances? Like so many others it's just not viable against buses (and cars). There a very few advantages to a train over a bus in general these days and the speed, flexibility and frequency of bus services on corridors like this make the trains unneeded.
€4 million quid a year that could be spent on some many other things, not least reducing fares on routes that are actually used!

LXFlyer

I'm baffled as to where they are getting a figure of EUR 20k per day from. They appear to be adding staffing and maintenance costs which are already being paid, such as the train crews and all of the level crossing keepers, all of which are there regardless. The fuel certainly does not cost anywhere near that figure.

The only extra train is the direct service in the morning and lunchtime return via Thurles.

The 2nd evening train to Ballybrophy would have been operating to Nenagh anyway and the crew would have been paid regardless. The cost of the fuel from Nenagh to Ballybrophy and v.v. would be not be that great.

The marginal cost of running the additional trains is nowhere near this figure - it frankly is shoddy journalism.

munchkin_utd

lxflyer wrote: »

The marginal cost of running the additional trains is nowhere near this figure - it frankly is shoddy journalism.

+1

although the headline is wrong, in a sense I have no problem with it.
CIE are loath to actually break down what services/ lines are costing, so in that sense any figure is "correct" as the next - as who the hell knows what portion of the 100s of millions of annual subvention goes to the nenagh branch!

If you magically swallow 100s of millions of taxpayers cash and cant account for it, CIE should expect crazy headlines and in all honestly deserve it.

LXFlyer

The only additional cost of running these trains as far as I can see is the additional fuel costs. The rest is already incurred, and if the fuel costs are EUR 20k then we have a problem!!!

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

The only additional cost of running these trains as far as I can see is the additional fuel costs. The rest is already incurred, and if the fuel costs are EUR 20k then we have a problem!!!

Presumably extra staff to cover the runs as well? Staff who run the original services may well be ticketed to cover other duties during the day, now both those other duties and the new runnings must be staffed, hence a cost increase. Or do they just sit around on their tod for hours in between the original runs? Similarly do the trains themselves sit around or normally perform other duties?, in which case additional units need to be run thus increasing costs again...

LXFlyer

Given that no new units have been commissioned yet, there are no additional units being used, and it is using the existing fleet. They may have changed the rosters and juggled the fleet around.

I would imagine the staff may be coming from the standby pool - and even if not, the only additional staff involved are the driver and checker (if there is one) on the morning service - the evening train would have been crewed/operated regardless.

The fact is that the cost of the additional services is still nowhere near that suggested.

bk

I'm sorry lxflyer but that is typical semi-state bull.

Ah sure it is only a little extra cost, sure the trains and staff were just sitting around doing nothing anyway!!

If the trains and staff were just sitting around doing nothing anyway, then they should have been let go and sold off and thus save the company and tax payer money.

LXFlyer

The reality is bk that we are talking about one train! At the end of the day that means one driver and one checker and fuel - that does not cost EUR 20k per day.

The point that I am making is that these services are NOT costing EUR 20k per day - that frankly is dreadful journalism. I'm not getting into the rights/wrongs of operating it, just making the point that the piece is littered with inaccuracies.

I'd imagine the set rosters have been rejigged to provide the train to operate the morning service given no new sets have been commissioned.

The evening service was there regardless - it operated to Nenagh.

munchkin_utd

from the article :

The decision to lay on extra services will cost the company hundreds of thousands of euro. The line is 84km long, and Iarnrod Eireann says it costs €56 to run a train per km travelled -- or €4,704 per service.

so hence 4 "new services" * €4,704 = a shade under 20 grand per day

LXFlyer

Those costs include the entire line costs, virtually all of which are incurred already - they are not the marginal costs of running an extra train.

That is my point and the one that the journalist has singularly and spectacularly missed.

the groutch

even if the true cost was only a quarter of what's quotes, it's a million euro we can't afford, all in the name of parish pump politics.
different government, same results.

Judgement Day

The truth is that the only future Ballybrophy/Limerick ever had depended on a direct curve at Ballybrophy and the line being promoted as the direct Limerick/Dublin route. Of course some proper decentralisation based on Roscrea and Nenagh would also have helped. These extra trains will serve the same purpose as the the Enniscorthy/Waterford commuter link did - i.e. provide IE/Govt. with the classic closure excuse - extra trains which nobody used and increased losses.

LXFlyer

the groutch wrote: »

even if the true cost was only a quarter of what's quotes, it's a million euro we can't afford, all in the name of parish pump politics.
different government, same results.

I think we have to be clear here. The relevant costs in looking at operating additional trains are the marginal costs incurred, i.e. those that would not have been incurred before.

We are talking about the fuel to run the train, and (potentially) two extra staff members on it. That frankly is it.

Figures like EUR 20k per day, or even EUR5k per day (EUR 4m or EUR 1m per annum) in that context are just poppycock.

You're looking at a maximum cost of certainly sub-EUR1k per day, probably in the region of EUR 800-900 per day which will then have marginal revenue against it. That is a maximum of EUR 260k per annum, before any additional revenue generated is taken into account.

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

extra trains which nobody used and increased losses.

If trains are scheduled at decent times and nobody is using them I don't see a reason for IE to keep running services.

Granted Rosslare Waterford was timetabled to death but even if it had a proper timetable I would imagine it would suffer very low patronage.

foggy_lad

God help us all when money can be stuffed down the toilet like this! That "minister" should resign and apologise to the country for being such a fool and being brainwashed by a few "volunteers" who believe the line must be saved at any cost. Close it down and tear up the tracks and let the money be spent on improving the awful rail network that remains.

n97 mini

I don't agree, if this is a trial to see if improved services can turn this line around.

If they can, then well done to all concerned. If they don't produce results within 12 or 24 months then axe the line.

It hasn't been made clear anywhere tho if this is a use or lose it trial, or a minister pandering FF-style to his constituents.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry lxflyer but that is typical semi-state bull.

Ah sure it is only a little extra cost, sure the trains and staff were just sitting around doing nothing anyway!!

If the trains and staff were just sitting around doing nothing anyway, then they should have been let go and sold off and thus save the company and tax payer money.

Just to go back on one point from this - you obviously are not familiar with the generally accepted operating practices of any large transport company, be it train, bus or airline.

There will always be a small number of staff kept on standby lest crew members do not show up due to illness etc. Or would you prefer that the service did not operate in those circumstances?

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

There will always be a small number of staff kept on standby lest crew members do not show up due to illness etc. Or would you prefer that the service did not operate in those circumstances?

But if you switch staff from standby, to a regular scheduled service, then you have to hire more staff to cover the standby.

Whatever way you try and paint it, it is more cost, nothing is for free.

Markcheese

Hang on slightly confused.... Is this

A political stroke by a minister in his back yard

IE giving the ballybrophy line a bit more rope to hang itself with

Or somebody looking to use the resources they have to best effect(strange and unlikely I know)

It's not going to be all three at once

Hungerford

n97 mini wrote: »

Granted Rosslare Waterford was timetabled to death but even if it had a proper timetable I would imagine it would suffer very low patronage.

What's frightening about this proposal is that load factors on the Rosslare-Waterford line were greater than the Nenagh branch despite IE's successful attempts to kill the route.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

But if you switch staff from standby, to a regular scheduled service, then you have to hire more staff to cover the standby.

Whatever way you try and paint it, it is more cost, nothing is for free.

I was making the point that your suggestion of "letting them go" was not very sensible, that it is actually usual practice.

As I have pointed out - even factoring that extra staff cost in - the additional trains are probably costing less than EUR 1k per day and probably in the EUR 800-EUR 900 area. Now the question is what sort of marginal revenue will be generated?

n97 mini

Hungerford wrote: »

What's frightening about this proposal is that load factors on the Rosslare-Waterford line were greater than the Nenagh branch despite IE's successful attempts to kill the route.

Might have been, but would Rosslare-Waterford ever have enough patronage to keep it open, regardless of the timetable? I suspect not.

I reckon the Nenagh branch's days are also numbered, but we'll see what happens. I would be delighted if the locals used it enough to keep it open. Pestering TDs should never been enough of a reason to keep a line open.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

The marginal cost of running the additional trains is nowhere near this figure - it frankly is shoddy journalism.

So... business as usual at Independent Newspapers?

However, some of the existing commuters to Limerick will be shredding their tickets as the last train is now 1705. It seems that the way the line is configured it can't really do Nenagh-Dublin traffic and Nenagh-Limerick 9-5 traffic well at the same time.

If this line is to prosper then the 70mph speed limit has to be reinstated, crossings which don't pass muster under modern standards of sighting closed or rehabbed and the line fully automated. Oh and get shale traffic going again.

There's more chance of Ireland's debt being written off I'd say.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Ah sure it is only a little extra cost, sure the trains and staff were just sitting around doing nothing anyway!! If the trains and staff were just sitting around doing nothing anyway, then they should have been let go and sold off and thus save the company and tax payer money.

They may not necessarily have been costing money.

n97 mini wrote: »

Might have been, but would Rosslare-Waterford ever have enough patronage to keep it open, regardless of the timetable? I suspect not.

Providing a properly timetabled service would have cost no more than the existing subvention as the extra income would have covered the marginal extra cost.

mikemac1

Somehow Irish Rail are going to have to tempt the locals away from Bus Éireann and JJ Kavanaghs

As the railline is there, it's nice to have an option but when is the lose it or use it ultimatum coming?

Locals fought very hard to get a good timetable and they eventually got it. And the Irish Rail fares are pretty reasonable
Speed to Dublin is fine but speed to Limerick is very slow, could do a lot better but I don't know about speed restrictions

Even with a big push and some better advertising I don't think the locals will be tempted, hard to give up a top bus service from BE and JJ Kavanaghs

The bus companies are gouging too, for some reason a Nenagh to Limerick ticket is pretty much the same price as a Nenagh to Dublin ticket though it's four times the distance to Dublin :mad:

foggy_lad

mikemac1 wrote: »

Somehow Irish Rail are going to have to tempt the locals away from Bus Éireann and JJ Kavanaghs

As the railline is there, it's nice to have an option but when is the lose it or use it ultimatum coming?

Locals fought very hard to get a good timetable and they eventually got it. And the Irish Rail fares are pretty reasonable
Speed to Dublin is fine but speed to Limerick is very slow, could do a lot better but I don't know about speed restrictions

Even with a big push and some better advertising I don't think the locals will be tempted, hard to give up a top bus service from BE and JJ Kavanaghs

The bus companies are gouging too, for some reason a Nenagh to Limerick ticket is pretty much the same price as a Nenagh to Dublin ticket though it's four times the distance to Dublin :mad:

The slow journey time to/from Limerick will see this line close by the end of the year if the decision has not already been made!

JJ Kavanagh's tickets on all routes are now only €15 return(valid for 45 days) max with lower fares for intermediate points.

Our man in Havana

Until the 25 mph speed restriction between Ballybrophy and Nenagh is fixed the trains won't win.

mikemac1

foggy_lad wrote: »

JJ Kavanagh's tickets on all routes are now only €15 return(valid for 45 days) max with lower fares for intermediate points.

I wasn't aware of that
€15 return for Nenagh Dublin is great value, Irish Rail won't beat that

dowlingm

The question is not just how much with the route lose but could that train be deployed more effectively. If IE had bought Selective Door Opening on the 22000s it would and should be running up and down the Wicklow line with its unextendable platforms. Instead they have to cram into a 3 car set which the "surplus" gets sent to Limerick for a Minister's whim.

foggy_lad

mikemac1 wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that
€15 return for Nenagh Dublin is great value, Irish Rail won't beat that

It is also only €10 from Nenagh to Limerick and to UL and takes about 30 minutes compared to a lot longer for the train!

dowlingm

mikemac1 wrote: »

Locals fought very hard to get a good timetable and they eventually got it.

Except the timetable is only "good" for services to Dublin. They will lose at least some revenue from the Limerick commuter service which locals fought very hard for previously which included some money spent on signalling mods in Nenagh to make it a turnback location. Of course if it had been made a full block post then trains could pass there and the 1705 dep ex Limerick could be deferred to 1805ish, the connections with Dublin/Cork trains deferred an hour and the crossing point moving south from Roscrea. Instead the cheap-and-cheerful/WRC approach was taken.

Eventually Ireland's going to have to get the message - a workable train service has got to have decent load on at least a 3-car consist and operating at at least the same average speed as the adjoining road. 1-2 car services just don't provide the economies of scale over buses that make railways a money maker.