Three could buy O2 ireland?

cookie1977

Anyone see today's Sunday Independent? How likely would this be to happen? Certainly O2 are under performing at present but would Telefonica be willing to sell them?
http://www.independent.ie/business/world/hutch-is-eyeing-up-o2s-800m-irish-business-3031963.html

Ghandee

Best thing I ever did was ditch O2 for 3 tbh.

My monthly bills went from 250-300 per month to 95-120.

Can roam in ANY country with a three network, (was in Italy last summer for a week) with no roaming charges, this includes making/receiving calls, and using mobile Web.

Also, they let me call UK landlines AND mobiles from my monthly minute bundle.

Of course there will be a barrage of folk coming to derail this thread to claim of shoddy c/c based in India, and 3G Coverage issues, but let me tell you, as a man whose job takes him will over Ireland, rural and cities/Towns I can whole heartedly say I never ever experience any problems (especially network coverage)

O2 if your struggling, i've zero sympathy for you, you evolved into one of the most cash hungry, price gouging, non compromising companies Ireland had.

A far as i'm concerned. Good riddance.

cookie1977

It's still all speculation at present but it is also known that Hutchison Whampoa are interested in some of the Irish state owned assets that could go up for sale. So they definitely see a future in Ireland. Three has also done deals with BT Ireland to enhance network services so they too see a future. The sale would probably not fall foul of any monopoly legislation either since Three's customer base is so small and O2 are only the second largest network in the country. The two could benefit from each other. Three's pricing is excellent conpared with O2's and O2's customer services is better then Three's currently is (at least in the minds of most). Interesting to see how this develops.

vicM

Think this would be bad for customers. Three would now become arguably bigger than Vodafone and I think thier policy of competitive pricing would go out of the window. Im also with Tesco now and I think the tesco deal would be in Jeopardy. I think O2 has the best Network currently in terms of up-to-date technologies and coverage

My ideal scenario would be UPC buying O2

Owen

I moved from o2 Billpay after 8 years to Three. Pretty happy so far, with the same usage, what o2 charged me 70 Euro for, I have for 20 with Three. That makes a huge difference to my wallet.

cookie1977

The tesco deal is done and dusted and any party buying O2 would have to accept the deal. Sure if and when it comes up for renewal then maybe three might say no but why would they if they're making money from it.

I wouldn't agree that O2 have the best network as their recent 3G troubles have shown but yes I too would love to see UPC or BT Ireland take a punt on O2 and buy it.

vicM

cookie1977 wrote: »

The tesco deal is done and dusted and any party buying O2 would have to accept the deal. Sure if and when it comes up for renewal then maybe three might say no but why would they if they're making money from it.

I wouldn't agree that O2 have the best network as their recent 3G troubles have shown but yes I too would love to see UPC or BT Ireland take a punt on O2 and buy it.

Didnt hear about thier 3G woes but I used them before and they had consistent 3G speeds and atleast edge unlike vodafone who didnt have edge. Can just never understand thier pricing and data allowances.
Just imagine if they even tried to compete in price, three would have found it harder to get customers esp. billpay. Now they are bleeding customers and to get them back will be near impossible

cookie1977

I was with O2 for 14 years and always found them the best quality and value network but in the space of a year or two they erroded that and went to what I consider to be the most expensive network in the country bar non. And it seems people are starting to think that now with them being probably the only network to be loosing customers (albeit at a slow rate) quarter on quarter. Still puzzles me though how they managed to gain contract customers last year?? Comreg's figures for the networks should be out soon and will probably indicate such. BT Ireland used to own O2 and maybe they'd be interested in buying them back again. Total speculation there on my part but either way I think O2 does need a radical shift in it's business model.

drunkmonkey

cookie1977 wrote: »

Still puzzles me though how they managed to gain contract customers last year??

Student Broadband and mobile broadband broadband is fluffing the figures. There loosing mobile phone customers.

o2 & Meteor are up for grabs, I don't know which 3 would rather but with the spectrum auctions coming up both will be sold before then.
What could happen and I hope it doesn't is Voda buy 3. This spectrum auction isn't going to leave any prisoners. It's a lot of money and only those serious about Ireland will stay.

cookie1977

The 3% quoted is only mobile contracts. Narrowband customer growth was actually 115% (which as you say does swell some of their numbers)
http://pressoffice.telefonica.com/documentos/nprensa/TEF_Europe_Q4_2011_Financials_Final_0.pdf

Vodafone won't buy 3 as it's not for sale and Vodafone wouldn't be allowed to by O2 or meteor due to it being a possible monopoly which the TCA would block http://www.tca.ie/

JTMan

Competition needs to be preserved. 3 have really pushed competition in the mobile sphere in recent years and given other operators a high benchmark and a run for their money. It would be sad if 3 merged with any of the other 3 incumbents.

I don't accept the view that 3's low sub 7% market share should preclude authorities competition concerns. One just has to look at the correct view, that the FCC, took of the proposed acquisition of small player T-Mobile USA by AT&T for precedent.

The shocking announcement, last week, that Virgin Mobile are entering the UK 4G auction could encourage UPC to purchase O2 or Meteor if they are to pursue a similar 'spectrum ownership' strategy.

drunkmonkey

And that 3% contract growth was probably as a result of them flipping their pre pay customers to bill pay.

I wonder how it will could play out.

Will 3 become o2
Will o2 become 3

How will they brand it.

Who'll buy into Meteor. Which would you buy, o2 or Meteor? I reckon you'd get Meteor at a good price but would you get eMobile thrown in or would be stuck in competition with them as part of the meteor/emobile MVNO agreement, any idea how long that deal was done for?

I presume when you buy the network you don't buy the MVNO. So o2 would not include Tesco & 48.

JTMan

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I presume when you buy the network you don't buy the MVNO. So o2 would not include Tesco & 48.

48 is a wholly owned brand. Whoever buys Telefonica Ireland, buys 48 as well.

Tesco Mobile Ireland is 50% owned by Telefonica Ireland. Whoever buys Telefonica Ireland, buys 50% of Tesco Mobile Ireland as well.

drunkmonkey

How about eMobile? If IIRC Voda bought Ericell but as part of the deal there was a block for a certain amount of years on eircom having another mobile network. Am I only dreaming that?

cookie1977

At&t and T-Mobile had huge shares of the us market and rightly so the merger was blocked. Not the case here that I see. I'd prefer UPC and BT to enter the market. If three bough O2 they'd be Three as O2 still exists for telefonica. Three would honour the O2 -Tesco MVNO agreement until it came up again and then it's between Three and Tesco but I presume they'd sign up again if it were profitable. 48 months is wholey owned by O2 so they would just become part of the deal too.

cookie1977

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How about eMobile? If IIRC Voda bought Ericell but as part of the deal there was a block for a certain amount of years on eircom having another mobile network. Am I only dreaming that?

No thats's correct but I doubt a) eircom could afford O2 or b) the TCA would allow a merger.

JTMan

The Sunday Times today reports that Eircom "desperately needs 1 billion EUR".

There are very few ways Eircom can get 1 billion EUR other than selling Meteor/eMobile.

cookie1977

Fungus wrote: »

The Sunday Times today reports that Eircom "desperately needs 1 billion EUR".

There are very few ways Eircom can get 1 billion EUR other than selling Meteor/eMobile.

And they certainly wouldn't bring in 1billion euro considering O2's business is valued at 800 million euro

drunkmonkey

I doubt Eircom can afford a 4G licence let alone o2.

It's a tough decision for 3 if there thinking about it but they'd nearly have to go with the bigger customer base to really square up to Vodafone.

Eircom needs the cash and so does Telefonica, 3 need spectrum but could be bullied out if o2 and Meteor decide to go the distance but nether of them seem to have any interest in staying due to financial reasons.

drunkmonkey

Fungus wrote: »

The Sunday Times today reports that Eircom "desperately needs 1 billion EUR".

There are very few ways Eircom can get 1 billion EUR other than selling Meteor/eMobile.

The need more than 1 billion, ideally they need 3 bilion for the whole eircom group. Is it even worth a euro in it's current set up.

o2(Telefonica) need 56 billion, that a fair debt burden, anything non strategic will be sold off to reduce the cost of servicing that kind of debt.

o2 Made a pre tax profit of 6.75 million last year, I don't see how that values it at €800 million. You could be waiting a long time to get that money back.

Is the times article online?

AlmightyCushion

Ghandee wrote: »

Best thing I ever did was ditch O2 for 3 tbh.

My monthly bills went from 250-300 per month to 95-120.

Can roam in ANY country with a three network, (was in Italy last summer for a week) with no roaming charges, this includes making/receiving calls, and using mobile Web.

Also, they let me call UK landlines AND mobiles from my monthly minute bundle.

Of course there will be a barrage of folk coming to derail this thread to claim of shoddy c/c based in India, and 3G Coverage issues, but let me tell you, as a man whose job takes him will over Ireland, rural and cities/Towns I can whole heartedly say I never ever experience any problems (especially network coverage)

O2 if your struggling, i've zero sympathy for you, you evolved into one of the most cash hungry, price gouging, non compromising companies Ireland had.

A far as i'm concerned. Good riddance.

My dad was in a similar situation. He was paying over €300 a month with o2. I just happened to see his bill one day and nearly had a heart attack. He's with three now and his bill is about €100 a month.

Kristopherus

BT pulled out of the residential market for landlines a few years ago & Vodafone took up the slack, so I would'nt think they'll be overly interested. Eircom are on the precipice and could go either way. They are almost certain to offload Meteor or eMobile or both in the next year. We're years behind in terms of telephony infracture and Eircom will not be able to upgrade anytime soon. All in all a bad scenario. Hutchinson-Whompoa appear to have the necessary leverage to be able to afford O2 or Meteor/eMobile. Like others I'd prefer to see UPC take the plunge. There's every chance they would shake up the market.Just my 2 cents.

cookie1977

BT were forced to off load O2 due to monopoly issues. They're helping 3 with their infrastructure so they may be interested, you never know. A brand new player would be the best option for an O2 takeover as we're more likely to see some "new" moves.

ardmacha

Telefonica is a big international company. But they do not exploit this iwith O2, with little innovation in roaming compared to Three or Vodafone. Really good UK and Spanish roaming rates would be of interest to many people.

cookie1977

O2 had great roaming rates in the UK. You could use your minutes and texts there but about 2 years ago they scrapped it. Then initially extended it for a few months after there was some up roar but once that died down they cancelled it altogether.

Vahevala

I used to be with O2 many moons ago but left them for 3, to be honest, I wish I had done it earlier, they seem to have completely lost the focus for a long time. Now when I see O2 offering such measly data limits, it astonishes me. Smartphones are on the increase (I for one could not live without mine! )

I would love to see UPC enter the market.

the_syco

I use o2 for the local coverage, and the local 3G. 3G on Three is not meant to be the best in Leixlip, and as that's where I live and work, I stay with o2.

If Three bought o2, I'd wonder how much of an increase the price of doing business for Three would be, and if prices would stay low?

cookie1977

the_syco wrote: »

If Three bought o2, I'd wonder how much of an increase the price of doing business for Three would be, and if prices would stay low?

Well I'm speculation here but who ever buys O2 (even if Three did) would have to halt/reverse the loss of customers, and the only way to do this in my mind is to cut prices. I can't see anyone who buys O2 raising prices, at least in the short to medium term. It would be a little stupid.

Take UPC broadband for instance. In areas where they compete with other providers they still offer huge discounts compared with the competition (eircom) despite the fact that most customers would probably move to them if they could, even if prices were a little higher as they're so cheap (and offer so much more) then the eircom equivalent plans.

whatbuttons?

I used to work in the telecoms industry so I can give a little insight here I think to help the discussion - first of all BT Ireland are more than likely not going to be entering the consumer mobile space any time soon. They certainly don't do this in the UK (the Irish company, though separate, is still owned by the UK company) and as one other person pointed out - since they've sold the Residential Landline business to Vodafone they are completely uninterested in any consumer business in Ireland and are focussing on providing the networks wholesale to other providers. If I had any life savings I would be totally comfortable betting the whole lot that BT Ireland will not be buying O2.

cookie1977 wrote: »

Well I'm speculation here but who ever buys O2 (even if Three did) would have to halt/reverse the loss of customers, and the only way to do this in my mind is to cut prices. I can't see anyone who buys O2 raising prices

Secondly - knowing how these things go is paramount - if someone were to buy O2 what they are really buying is the customers - they get the brand as well but more than likely they won't want it. The customers and employees and assets of O2 would then be owned by whoever buys it, and the most likely thing to happen would be for the purchaser to immediately rebrand everything in their image and all their new customers would be immediately converted to one of their equivalent contracts.
If anyone was with BT Ireland when the business was sold (I know I was) then you'll remember what happened there - same thing.

cookie1977

whatbuttons? wrote: »

I used to work in the telecoms industry so I can give a little insight here I think to help the discussion - first of all BT Ireland are more than likely not going to be entering the consumer mobile space any time soon. They certainly don't do this in the UK (the Irish company, though separate, is still owned by the UK company) and as one other person pointed out - since they've sold the Residential Landline business to Vodafone they are completely uninterested in any consumer business in Ireland and are focussing on providing the networks wholesale to other providers. If I had any life savings I would be totally comfortable betting the whole lot that BT Ireland will not be buying O2.



Secondly - knowing how these things go is paramount - if someone were to buy O2 what they are really buying is the customers - they get the brand as well but more than likely they won't want it. The customers and employees and assets of O2 would then be owned by whoever buys it, and the most likely thing to happen would be for the purchaser to immediately rebrand everything in their image and all their new customers would be immediately converted to one of their equivalent contracts.
If anyone was with BT Ireland when the business was sold (I know I was) then you'll remember what happened there - same thing.

Who ever buys O2 Ireland wouldn't get the brand as O2 exists still in other countries and the "real" O2 wouldn't want to be connected with another O2 in case of reputational damage etc... So a brand change would be nigh in immediate just like Vodafone/BT was for their fixed line business

Re BT, It was idle speculation, just like this entire thread.

drunkmonkey

Without the brand they'd hardly get €800 million for it.

whatbuttons?

Sorry, I should have been clearer there, when I said 'brand' I meant more like the website, shops possibly, those kind of assets. It would obviously be written into the deal that the O2 images and trademarks etc would remain the property of Telefonica, but as part of the deal the entire rest of the business could be sold leaving the buyer free to rebrand the whole lot with their own images, colours etc.
The point I was trying to make though was that with these things the primary item being sold isn't the shops or buildings - it's the customers, it's us.

And yep, I understand you're speculating - just saying that it's pointless to speculate about things that are almost certainly not going to happen - BT Ireland entering the mobile space being one of them.
Naturally I stand to be corrected on this, but I'd still be willing to bet on it

drunkmonkey

I'd say they won't buy o2 either, buying Metero/eMobile would be enough to make 3 bigger than o2 and that might be enough for them, buying o2 would be a bit like buying a falling knife.
I think they will do something though.

vicM

whatbuttons? wrote: »

I used to work in the telecoms industry so I can give a little insight here I think to help the discussion - first of all BT Ireland are more than likely not going to be entering the consumer mobile space any time soon. They certainly don't do this in the UK (the Irish company, though separate, is still owned by the UK company) and as one other person pointed out - since they've sold the Residential Landline business to Vodafone they are completely uninterested in any consumer business in Ireland and are focussing on providing the networks wholesale to other providers. If I had any life savings I would be totally comfortable betting the whole lot that BT Ireland will not be buying O2.



Secondly - knowing how these things go is paramount - if someone were to buy O2 what they are really buying is the customers - they get the brand as well but more than likely they won't want it. The customers and employees and assets of O2 would then be owned by whoever buys it, and the most likely thing to happen would be for the purchaser to immediately rebrand everything in their image and all their new customers would be immediately converted to one of their equivalent contracts.
If anyone was with BT Ireland when the business was sold (I know I was) then you'll remember what happened there - same thing.

I dont know why BT left the consumer market here but i would speculate they didnt want to invest much in the market. In the UK there is far stiffer competition in the landline/broadband landscape and it was a easy decision for them

whoever buys O2 will obviously get the customers, but customers can be very fickle if not attended to properly as O2 are finding out. I think the O2's main assest is actually the network in place and the brand name. As for employees, well it is an employers market atm.

jenno86

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd say they won't buy o2 either, buying Metero/eMobile would be enough to make 3 bigger than o2 and that might be enough for them, buying o2 would be a bit like buying a falling knife.
I think they will do something though.

Lot of Bill Pay and Business customers with o2. That would be appealing to 3 I'd imagine.

Meteor is more pre pay which is not as appealing.

whatbuttons?

vicM wrote: »

whoever buys O2 will obviously get the customers, but customers can be very fickle if not attended to properly as O2 are finding out.

Ah yes, but if 3 were to buy o2 and move all the customers onto equivalent price plans - that would mean that everyone with o2 now would suddenly be getting all you can eat data etc.. i'm with o2 now and i can tell you i'd be delighted with that!! nom nom data...

JTMan

I'm reliably informed that talks between Hutchison and Telefonica for Hutchison to acquire Telefonica Ireland are now at an "advanced stage".

If that is correct, and the talks materialise, Hutchison might be about to get their hands on O2, 48, Three and 50% of Tesco Mobile Ireland.

Bad news for competition.

Mycroft H

So what would O2 call themselves then? Ozone?

cookie1977

Not good for competition and in light of comreg's recent draft publication of their future plans, including fostering competition, it'll be interesting to see how they (comreg) do.
http://www.comreg.ie/publications/comreg_draft_strategy_statement_2012-2014.583.104084.p.html

Maybe the TCA will reject it?? We can dream

JTMan

Maybe the rejection of the AT&T/T-Mobile deal can give a ray of hope of the TCA apply similar mobile competition criteria. Although, I appreciate that it is a slightly different kettle of fish.

If Hutch announce a Telefonica acquisition, then it is time to organise mass consumer complaints to Comreg/TCA, about the loss in competition that a 48/3/O2/Tesco conglomeration would create.

cookie1977

Bit of a difference unfortunately as T-mobile and AT&T were the 3rd largest and largest networks in the US so there was a clear competition problem.

Hutchinso and O2 will say that the other networks are competitiors just buying space on the network so I can't see how TCA will block it if it does happen. I would have thought meteor to be a better target for hutch in light of eircom groups problems

vicM

Fungus wrote: »

I'm reliably informed that talks between Hutchison and Telefonica for Hutchison to acquire Telefonica Ireland are now at an "advanced stage".

If that is correct, and the talks materialise, Hutchison might be about to get their hands on O2, 48, Three and 50% of Tesco Mobile Ireland.

Bad news for competition.

bad indeed, but why would they own 50% of tesco, thought that Tesc was a different entity running on O2's infrastructure??

ted1

Tesco are a mvno and provide competition againest the ones listed. They just happen yo buy off 02 as that's the best deal they could get, no reason why they couldn't buy off a different operator.
48 are a stand alone entity, who happen to be owned by Telefonica. Competition authority would allow it.

JTMan

vicM wrote: »

bad indeed, but why would they own 50% of tesco, thought that Tesc was a different entity running on O2's infrastructure??

Tesco Mobile are 50% owned by Telefonica and 50% owned by Tesco.

JTMan

cookie1977 wrote: »

Bit of a difference unfortunately as T-mobile and AT&T were the 3rd largest and largest networks in the US so there was a clear competition problem.

Verizon are the largest US mobile telco with 108 million subscribers.

Solair

I'm not convinced that O2 IRL would be sold on its own. It's more likely to be sold together with O2 UK.

Telefonica made an absolute hash of running O2 and seem to have achieved very little since they purchased the mmO2 company.

BT hasn't ever operated O2, it spun mmO2 off as a separate company, which then rebranded Cellnet, Digifone, D2 in Germany, Telefort? NL and a few other bits and pieces.

O2 as a standalone company was pretty progressive (especially at marketing and brand development) and looked at roaming deals etc etc.
Since Telefonica purchased it the company seems to have floundered!

I'd say Telefonica might want to exit the northern Europe market and concentrate on Spain and Latin America, where it is successful.

Perhaps a large chunk of O2 might go to another major European telco looking at gaining bigger foothold in. Northern European markets...

lawhec

I think one of the main problems is that is the Irish Republic market place big enough to sustain 4 separate mobile phone networks? The UK effectively has only four networks now, Germany has four, France has three plus a minor 3G player and many European countries which are similar to Ireland in population and/or physical size usually have only three network operators.

Maybe the Irish market as it stands is really only capable of supporting three networks, with additional competition provided for with MVNOs where applicable.

I wonder if Everything Everywhere, or either Orange or T-Mobile separately would be interested in an Irish network?

Solair

O2 behaved very oddly though.
They made absolutely no use of their huge European and international footprint to encourage people to go with O2. Why isn't there a preferential roaming rate on O2 UK and Movistar in Spain? They're two hugely popular destinations for Irish people.

They seemed to lose all sense of price competition in Ireland. Their packages are all amongst the most expensive on the market.

In the UK they've gained a asimilar reputation and their network was also considered to be a bit worse than their main competition.

Cool branding, that is now perhaps a bit cold and dated looking, won't keep market share.

They've two niche MVNOs the quirky GiffGaff crowd-sourced mobile operator in the UK and the 48 brand here, which seems to be trying to appeal to the same audience as Tallifornia!

cookie1977

Fungus wrote: »

Verizon are the largest US mobile telco with 108 million subscribers.

I think at the time the takeover was muted they were the largest. That aside the Three network in Ireland has only about 4% of irish subscribers whereas in the US at&t and t-mobile both had significant amounts of subscribers to begin with. And if they'd been allowed to merge they would have become the largest network by some way (approx 135million subscribers compared with verizons 108). In ireland even if Three and O2 merged they'd still be behind vodafone. The TCA will probably look at this favourably and may consider the possibilities of hutchison investing significantly in the new companies infrastructure. Something O2 seem un willing or unable to do at present.

Kensington

cookie1977 wrote: »

I think at the time the takeover was muted they were the largest. That aside the Three network in Ireland has only about 4% of irish subscribers whereas in the US at&t and t-mobile both had significant amounts of subscribers to begin with. And if they'd been allowed to merge they would have become the largest network by some way (approx 135million subscribers compared with verizons 108). In ireland even if Three and O2 merged they'd still be behind vodafone. The TCA will probably look at this favourably and may consider the possibilities of hutchison investing significantly in the new companies infrastructure. Something O2 seem un willing or unable to do at present.

Invest at what cost though.
Hutchinson operate all of their Ireland/UK/Australia backend stuff from India - would they have any need to maintain O2's equivalent when they already have their own setup abroad?

Oceans12

cookie1977 wrote: »

I think at the time the takeover was muted they were the largest. That aside the Three network in Ireland has only about 4% of irish subscribers whereas in the US at&t and t-mobile both had significant amounts of subscribers to begin with. And if they'd been allowed to merge they would have become the largest network by some way (approx 135million subscribers compared with verizons 108). In ireland even if Three and O2 merged they'd still be behind vodafone. The TCA will probably look at this favourably and may consider the possibilities of hutchison investing significantly in the new companies infrastructure. Something O2 seem un willing or unable to do at present.

of all the the networks o2's 3g signal is by far the worst! and has become even worse of late.