Get out of my way - I have to run this red light

xoxyx

I cycle through Dublin city centre every morning on the way to work and I am one of the very few who stops at red lights, but here's a new one for me.

I was on Dame Street beside the Occupy Dame Street movement. I was sitting on the left of the street with a pile of traffic beside me and no room to pass by. A cyclist came up beside me and bumped my back wheel. I turned around - assuming it was an accident and to smile at them to say "no worries" and this guy launched at me shouting "get out of the way". Needless to say, I went nowhere, and he got off his bike, took it into the footpath to go by me, and then headed off through the red light.

I caught up with him at O'Connell Street Bridge (green lights all the way) and stopped and asked him what the hell he was playing at. He got all aggressive again and had a go at me for slowing him down by stopping at a red light! For him, running a red light was not just an ill gotten privilege, it was a right!

So, this is a two way rant. Firstly, and mostly, it has to do with this cyclist being a dick. But, secondly, running red lights has become common practice for cyclists. No wonder motorists hate us!! I'm sure this has been done to death - but, until this stops, we need to keep talking about it. If for no other reason, I've seen thread after thread on motorists not respecting cyclists. How are they going to respect us when we don't abide by the rules of the road?

Mods - I wonder would it be worth a sticky about not running red lights and trying to create a culture where cyclists themselves say that this isn't acceptable?

ThisRegard

Yaaay, it's Friday. To balance all the cyclists running red lights, stand at the pedestrian lights at the junction of City Quay and Memorial Bridge. You will see a motorist or two go through a red light at each cycle. And to echo your story, I had some bag beep at me for stopping on red one morning and gesture that I should have continued on.

It's never gone to stop, motorists go through red lights, cyclists go through red lights, pedestrians go through red lights, so maybe you should look for the same sticky in Motors, Commuting and Transport and After Hours.

droidus

Cyclists are not a homogenous group. You are responsible only for your own behaviour. I used to get annoyed at this too, but why should I care if someone else choses to break the law? I dont go online and complain about other pedestrians crossing when the man is red and that happens constantly in every town and city in Ireland.

Sure, it would be nice if all cyclists obeyed the law, but this is in no way a matter of concern for cyclists alone. Motorists regularly violate all kinds of laws, including red lights and it is seen as acceptable by other motorists: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76608937

People who complain that they cant 'respect' cyclists because 'they all break lights' or 'think they own the road' etc... are, essentially, cretins.

Captain Havoc

Motorists don't hate us, even less so as the the rising cost of having a car converts them one by one into cyclists. You're only going to hear the cyclist haters as the the rest of the motoring community that don't really care aren't going to say anything. You probably don't hate motorists or pedestrians so you're not going going to have a rant about them are you? You're only going to rant about stuff that annoys you, which in this case is an RLJer.

TheNah

yeah, i must say this craic is really disappointing to me. I cycle everyday down camden st./wexford st./Aungier St./George's St. which is a very busy route and probably has one of the highest cycling mode shares of any route in the city. There are a number of fairly busy, big junctions on it and a good few pedestrian crossings - the amount of red light running by cyclists i see does my head in - like we haven't a foot to stand on, and this is a really 'visible' route among policy makers, traffic police etc, that people would look at to see how cycling is doing in Dublin - wouldn't it be great if we could hold it up as a good example of sensible behaviour by cyclists?

I also notice fairly distinct patterns in the 'types' of cyclists most prone to RLR - i won't get into it here or i'll be shot though!

doozerie

This topic crops up a lot, and whenever it does a lot of people here already say that running red lights is not acceptable. On more than one occasion in the past I've had another cyclist have a go at me for impeding them by my being stopped at a red light (in fact in most cases I haven't actually impeded them at all, they simply felt the need to whine as they went past me and sometimes so intent on conveying their views to me that they paid no attention to the traffic they were trying to merge with). Morons exist in every walk of life and in/on every mode of transport, some of them also happen to be openly aggressive morons.

If you are really genuine in your appeal to cyclists generally to respect red lights, and I hope and presume you are, then please don't scupper your argument from the start by reference to cyclists versus, or in comparison to, motorists. There is no battle between motorists and cyclists, discussions just tend to dissolve into mud slinging matches between the two when the discussions get emotive and one way to virtually guarantee that they get emotive is to draw comparisons between the actions of cyclists and motorists. Cyclists should obey red lights, motorists should obey red lights.

DirkVoodoo

xoxyx wrote: »

Mods - I wonder would it be worth a sticky about not running red lights and trying to create a culture where cyclists themselves say that this isn't acceptable?

Please God, NO!

jameverywhere

It's good irony that he didn't save any time at all by this manoeuvre as you were easily able to catch up with him later.

seamus

I have to say that adherence to lights definitely appears to be improving as more and more people get on their bikes.

The junction at Charlotte Walk (outside the Bleeding Horse) used to be really bad in both directions. Every day, I would be the only person stopped at the lights, everyone else blasting straight through as soon as the opportunity presented itself. In the last year, this seems to have reversed almost completely from my perspective and the majority of cyclists now sit at these lights and wait for the green.

The same thing at the canal bridge in Rathmines.

Though there is a bit of a lemming effect. I've seen five or ten cyclists all sit happily at a junction waiting for a light, then a guy appears from behind and wobbles straight through the junction, and suddenly half the group decide "fnck it, I'm going too".

An interesting thing to see is when I'm at the back of the "pack" waiting at the lights and someone makes a break for it, most or all of the people at the front will go for it.
If I'm at the front of the pack and I don't move, then at most one or two people will follow the gob****e out in the junction. You even see a couple of people "jump" to move, but then see me not moving and stay where they are.

People are weird.

This effect does exist with all traffic, not just bikes - I've seen cars do it too - but because cars have to queue single-file at the lights, usually only one or two lemming cars follow the original light-breaker.

Lusk Doyle

Is it just me or does anyone else think that xoxyx is seriously hot?

Moflojo

I've always been good at stopping at red lights on the bike but I used to cycle through the amber pedestrian light at a couple of tricky junctions around town (Kenilworth/Terenure Road & Bath Ave/Haddington Road). I only cycled through the amber ped light if I was trying to turn right at a particularly busy time of the day or if the bike lane at the Kenilworth junction was blocked by the parked cars of Spar customers (Anyone that cycles through here will know what I'm talking about).

I stopped that altogether about 3 or 4 months ago because I thought the amount of cyclists disregarding the red lights at pretty much every junction around town had reached critical mass and it was only a matter of time before there was a Garda clampdown with some fines being imposed. So now I just get off the bike and walk across at the pedestrian lights, which works out quicker most times at the junctions in question than trying the same manouvre as a road-going vehicle. (Please don't berate me for not asserting my rights as a road user, I'm not saying everyone should do what I do, but it works fine for me.)

I was waiting at the red light in Kenilworth on Tuesday morning with a Garda Traffic Corp jeep stopped at the light next to me. A cyclist broke a red light right in front of the Garda jeep and the Guards didn't even bat an eye.

I don't think this clampdown I'm worried about is going to happen anytime soon!

Al Capwned

Hate the way these discussions, here and elsewhere, always evolve into "cyclists versus motorist"

I dont cycle. I do drive.


Some motorists are dícks when it comes to cyclists.
Some cyclists are dícks when it comes to other road users.

To tar all cyclists, or all motorists, with the one brush is grossly unfair....

xoxyx

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yaaay, it's Friday.

I hear you! Yaaaayyyy!!!! :D

ThisRegard wrote: »

To balance all the cyclists running red lights, stand at the pedestrian lights at the junction of City Quay and Memorial Bridge. You will see a motorist or two go through a red light at each cycle. And to echo your story, I had some bag beep at me for stopping on red one morning and gesture that I should have continued on.

It's never gone to stop, motorists go through red lights, cyclists go through red lights, pedestrians go through red lights, so maybe you should look for the same sticky in Motors, Commuting and Transport and After Hours.

I have to say, I never see motorists breaking red lights. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I see (guesswork) 30 cyclists breaking red lights each and every morning that I cycle into work. That makes it an issue worth discussing on the cycling forum. I don't think that anybody could argue with the fact that, of road uses, cyclists are worst offenders for running red lights.

droidus wrote: »

Cyclists are not a homogenous group. You are responsible only for your own behaviour. I used to get annoyed at this too, but why should I care if someone else choses to break the law? I dont go online and complain about other pedestrians crossing when the man is red and that happens constantly in every town and city in Ireland.

Sure, it would be nice if all cyclists obeyed the law, but this is in no way a matter of concern for cyclists alone. Motorists regularly violate all kinds of laws, including red lights and it is seen as acceptable by other motorists: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76608937

I have to disagree with you here. It's true, cyclists are not a homogenous group. I am responsible only for my behaviour. But, it becomes an issue for me when I am sharing the road with motorists who have no respect for cyclists due to other cyclists' bad behaviour. Their actions are impacting on me. I sit at a set of red lights and watch the ten cyclists behind me cycle straight through them. This not only annoys me, but it annoys the taxi driver behind me who revs up as soon as the light turns green and cuts me off.

droidus wrote: »

People who complain that they cant 'respect' cyclists because 'they all break lights' or 'think they own the road' etc... are, essentially, cretins.

Hugely have to disagree with you on this point. How on earth are motorists, or pedestrians, or other cyclists, going to respect cyclists when the majority of them are flaunting the rules of the road constantly. Why would a motorist be respectful to a cyclist who just ran through a red light in front of them. It's true - you can't tar everybody with the same brush - but when I see maybe one or two cyclists a week stop with me at red lights, I think it's fair to say that the majority of cyclists are not abiding by the rules of the road and they are ruining it for the few of us that do and it's no surprise that cyclists are getting a bad name.

Please Kill Me

alproctor wrote: »

Hate the way these discussions, here and elsewhere, always evolve into "cyclists versus motorist"

I dont cycle. I do drive.


Some motorists are dícks when it comes to cyclists.
Some cyclists are dícks when it comes to other road users.

To tar all cyclists, or all motorists, with the one brush is grossly unfair....

This!

I drive a car some days. I ride a motorbike other days and I cycle sometimes too. I have had issues with other car drivers, other bikers and cyclists. The problem is not with the mode of transport that the person is using, but more with an individual (or a few individuals) with a bad attitude.

DirkVoodoo

droidus wrote: »

Sure, it would be nice if all cyclists obeyed the law, but this is in no way a matter of concern for cyclists alone. Motorists regularly violate all kinds of laws, including red lights and it is seen as acceptable by other motorists: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76608937

Nice thread, I know that section of the N11 all too well having lived in the area for most of my life. It's as safe to turn right there (or do a U-turn, no pedestrian light) as it would be to turn left on a red on a bike. One is met with indifference, the other with total outrage for "the law".

Why?

Well, I can only assume that it is because one is a case of helping traffic move quicker for you (hey, if more people go through this light, the faster I will get to where I'm going) and the other is someone else moving faster through traffic while I am going nowhere (bloody red light breaking cyclists). It all proves what you said, people are idiots and they take offence or readjust their moral compass whenever it suits them. There is no strict code or respect for the law, only a desire to see other folks get caught.

Much the same way people moan about being caught by a Garda for being in the bus lane during rush hour (I'm just trying to get to work!) but will feel a little more smug when they see someone else being pulled over for doing something similar on another day.

The cyclist taking offence, well he was a dick, should we have a sticky for cyclists not to act like dicks? dicks are going to be like that on or off a bike, they are the people who skip in front of you in mcdonalds, or take the parking space you were clearly indicating for in advance or badmouth you to colleagues at office parties. No sticky on the cycling forum will help with that.

xoxyx

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Please God, NO!

Why not???

DirkVoodoo

xoxyx wrote: »

Why not???

Fascist forum is that way =>

Who are you to "educate" me on how to cycle? If people are breaking red lights that is either for the Gardai or natural selection to sort out. I wouldn't go chasing arguments with people about it either, unless some sort of kerb ninja happens to knock you off your bike, in which case I would apply the art of ROK-ON-do and knock him out.

Captain Havoc

We're only allowed three stickys. The third one only comes out for really serious important stuff like updated fashion advice or Beasty's latest purchase.

Tenzor07

xoxyx wrote: »

I have to say, I never see motorists breaking red lights.

Do you live in Dublin??

"Location: Over there"

Maybe over there car drivers don't break red lights?

What is more prevalent are "Amber gamblers" the last second dash through the lights as it goes red...:rolleyes:

xoxyx

doozerie wrote: »

If you are really genuine in your appeal to cyclists generally to respect red lights, and I hope and presume you are, then please don't scupper your argument from the start by reference to cyclists versus, or in comparison to, motorists. There is no battle between motorists and cyclists, discussions just tend to dissolve into mud slinging matches between the two when the discussions get emotive and one way to virtually guarantee that they get emotive is to draw comparisons between the actions of cyclists and motorists. Cyclists should obey red lights, motorists should obey red lights.

Sorry - I didn't mean to make this a motorist vs. cyclist debate. I brought up the motorist point of view because I hear it every day from the majority of people I work with who drive to work. If it's an emotive topic, well so be it. I do think it's relevant however. Motorists and cyclists share the same road and they have to work together. I don't think I'm devaluing my argument in any way by comparing motorists with cyclists with regard to obeying the rules of the road. There's no discussion there - it's plain fact - motorists and cyclists both have a similar set of rules to obey! I don't see why it should be an us vs. them situation.

xoxyx

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Do you live in Dublin??

"Location: Over there"

Maybe over there car drivers don't break red lights?

What is more prevalent are "Amber gamblers" the last second dash through the lights as it goes red...:rolleyes:

Yep - I live in Dublin. I was just saying that I haven't seen drivers breaking red lights. I do see "Amber gamblers" (love it! ). I'm not saying that it doesn't happen - just that I, as an observer, don't see it - but what I do see is cyclists breaking red lights.

Lusk Doyle

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Who are you to "educate" me on how to cycle?

My, you're awful brave with the 'tude now that you're safely tucked away in dingo-land

DirkVoodoo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Do you live in Dublin??

"Location: Over there"

Maybe over there car drivers don't break red lights?

What is more prevalent are "Amber gamblers" the last second dash through the lights as it goes red...:rolleyes:

I don't believe it is possible to live in Dublin and NOT see red light breaking. The OP is either too busy arguing with RLJers or staring at the ground, but it is common. Could I say how many motorists do it (a minority? a majority?), of course not. But it just happens, it is common and you learn to adapt (don't jump green lights too early, LOOK everywhere).

In Sydney, people are quite good about red lights, because a lot of junctions have traffic light cameras to catch this. But they do speed an awful lot and they are useless around cyclists. It's a pretty awful city to cycle in.

teddansonswig

can we just have more flashing amber lights?

xoxyx

xoxyx wrote: »

Mods - I wonder would it be worth a sticky about not running red lights and trying to create a culture where cyclists themselves say that this isn't acceptable?

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Please God, NO!

xoxyx wrote: »

Why not???

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Fascist forum is that way =>

Who are you to "educate" me on how to cycle? If people are breaking red lights that is either for the Gardai or natural selection to sort out. I wouldn't go chasing arguments with people about it either, unless some sort of kerb ninja happens to knock you off your bike, in which case I would apply the art of ROK-ON-do and knock him out.

Hey DirkVoodoo!

Ok - that's a bit harsh re. the fascist forum. I really don't see the harm in promoting not breaking red lights - in fact, it would be great if cyclists had like an "honour code" whereby they stuck to the rules of the road. Ok - I may be coming across as a square - but I love cycling, especially in the city centre, and I really think that it would be beneficial for cyclists to abide by the rules of the road that they use, thereby creating a better environment for all road users. Ok - maybe I'm an idealist, but when has that been a bad thing?

I don't know why you would think that I am trying to "educate" you on how to cycle? I really don't mean to cause offense.

QueensGael

I got rear-ended this morning in Rathgar, by some dude in a Micra who was clearly p!ssed that I had the audacity to stop at a red light and prevent him from blasting though. No damage done, apart from the indignation of him having to wait 60 seconds for the lights to change, but WTF all the same!

Lusk Doyle

xoxyx wrote: »

Hey DirkVoodoo!

I don't know why you would think that I am trying to "educate" you on how to cycle? I really don't mean to cause offense.

Don't pay him any attention. It's late at night where he is and he is alone and in a bad mood over it.

xoxyx

Captain Havoc wrote: »

We're only allowed three stickys. The third one only comes out for really serious important stuff like updated fashion advice or Beasty's latest purchase.

This is really serious important though!!! (Extra !!!s for effect!)

Tenzor07

xoxyx wrote: »

This is really serious important though!!! (Extra !!!s for effect!)

What dya wanna see happen? I mean really? You can't control people's actions, just your own...

Though I certainly do think cycling through red lights at junctions or busy pedestrian crossings is just plain madness, one day the individual will meet someone at a crossing who will take offence and possibly knock the shi** out of them, or worse get a knock off a car..

Hungrycol

I see no harm in wearing black with no lights on my bike at night time. If motorists can't see me they're not looking hard enough.

I see no harm in running a red light. If motorists don't like it then don't follow me through one.

I see no harm in not wearing a helmet. I can head a football, I can head a bonnet of a car, same same.

I see no harm in stealing bicycles. If you haven't bought a good enough lock you may as well give me the key so I can leave your lock behind in one piece so you can go back to driving your car.

I see no harm in riding a fixie. Sorry that's going too far.

Lusk Doyle

If someone breaks a red light but there is nobody else there to see it does it still make a noise?

xoxyx

Tenzor07 wrote: »

What dya wanna see happen? I mean really? You can't control people's actions, just your own...

Though I certainly do think cycling through red lights at junctions or busy pedestrian crossings is just plain madness, one day the individual will meet someone at a crossing who will take offence and possibly knock the shi** out of them, or worse get a knock off a car..

What I would like to see is a cycling culture whereby running red lights is frowned upon. At the moment, it's not only seen as ok, but it's actually considered good practice. The reason I suggested putting it up as a sticky was that it may go towards changing the mindset of cyclists - even just those that post in the boards.ie cycling forum - so that, not alone do they not break red lights, but they put across the message that it's bad manners to do so.

It's not just the fact that it's dangerous - my major gripe with it is that it is giving the two fingers to everybody else who uses the road and basically saying that cyclists are a law unto themselves. That's not the way to go because, by breaking a red light, cyclists are saying "screw you" to pedestrians who might want to cross, motorists who are obeying the law, and other cyclists who are doing the right thing.

Lusk Doyle

xoxyx wrote: »

At the moment, it's not only seen as ok, but it's actually considered good practice.

Not true. Only by some. Previous threads have done this exact point to death with a split on right/wrong ever present.

doozerie

xoxyx wrote:

How on earth are motorists, or pedestrians, or other cyclists, going to respect cyclists when the majority of them are flaunting the rules of the road constantly. Why would a motorist be respectful to a cyclist who just ran through a red light in front of them.

I'm not sure exactly how broadly you are applying the term when you mention "respect". Certainly I have little or no respect for those people that I see regularly acting the maggot on the road regardless of the impact of their actions on others (for the most part it is pedestrians that bear the brunt of the selfish nonsense I see cycle commuters on my route do, though not always). Whether I actually do anything about that is another matter entirely though.

I could choose to do nothing, which is what I see the vast majority of other road users do.

I could choose to say something to the cyclist/driver concerned to point out what it was they'd just done, which I have done on many occasions and the responses have varied from acknowledgement (e.g. "Oh sorry, I hadn't realised I was being a dick") to blatant aggression (e.g. "If I get out of this car I'll ...", "If I get off this bike I'll ..."). I include in this category the times I've yelled at a cyclist or motorist who has broken a red light and skimmed past me and my toddler daughter as we've been walking across a road - my degree of politeness to a person is inversely proportional to the degree of danger posed by that person's actions to my daugther in particular. I've no idea whether my efforts led to less stupidity on the part of such people next time round, but I live in the blindly optimistic hope that being made aware that their actions may draw public scorn will at least make them think twice in the future.

I could choose to take it upon myself to "teach the person a lesson" by intimidating, and potentially assaulting, them verbally or physically. The irony here of course is that I'd just be an asshole having a go at someone for being an asshole in that scenario, the fact that I'd be fuelled with self rigteousness arguably makes me the bigger asshole. There is the supposedly passive aggressive version of this too, whereby someone "inadvertantly" shoves or bumps the person on the way past as a means of teaching them a lesson seemingly without any aggression involved but in reality it is pure aggression that they are channeling - I'd categorise quite a bit of what I see regularly in this particular camp.

So no, people shouldn't just ignore the rules of the road to suit themselves. But neither should their actions be used as justification by anyone else for equally, or potentially more, obnoxious or dangerous behaviour. And if people can't distinguish between the actions of individuals and the culpability of an entire group, then that's an issue for them to tackle inside their own heads.

droidus

xoxyx wrote: »

I hear you! Yaaaayyyy!!!! :D
I have to say, I never see motorists breaking red lights. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I see (guesswork) 30 cyclists breaking red lights each and every morning that I cycle into work. That makes it an issue worth discussing on the cycling forum. I don't think that anybody could argue with the fact that, of road uses, cyclists are worst offenders for running red lights.

I see it everyday, and I've provided some video evidence in my previous post.

I have to disagree with you here. It's true, cyclists are not a homogenous group. I am responsible only for my behaviour. But, it becomes an issue for me when I am sharing the road with motorists who have no respect for cyclists due to other cyclists' bad behaviour. Their actions are impacting on me. I sit at a set of red lights and watch the ten cyclists behind me cycle straight through them. This not only annoys me, but it annoys the taxi driver behind me who revs up as soon as the light turns green and cuts me off.

Hugely have to disagree with you on this point. How on earth are motorists, or pedestrians, or other cyclists, going to respect cyclists when the majority of them are flaunting the rules of the road constantly. Why would a motorist be respectful to a cyclist who just ran through a red light in front of them. It's true - you can't tar everybody with the same brush - but when I see maybe one or two cyclists a week stop with me at red lights, I think it's fair to say that the majority of cyclists are not abiding by the rules of the road and they are ruining it for the few of us that do and it's no surprise that cyclists are getting a bad name.

Tell me something - when you see a pedestrian breaking a light or doing something stupid when crossing the road, do you automatically think - F**king pedestrians - shouldn't even be on the road!! ? I dont - I simply think - that guys an idiot/arsehole. I dont assume every person with legs is the same.

The problem here is not simply the behaviour of cyclists. Its the psychology of driving, and its particular Irish variant, where anyone moving slowly or not in a car is 'in the way' on the road and is seen as an obstacle to be avoided, forced off the road or moaned about.

The fact is that you cant win this battle. If every cyclist obeyed every light, the complaint would be about them being 'too slow', or 'not wearing a helmet' or 'wearing funny clothes'.

Ive been driving and cycling for years. I regularly see everyone do stupid things on the road and though many cyclists break lights, Ive never seen one seriously threaten anyone else's safely. It can be annoying and I dont do it myself, but in 99% of cases its not that big a deal TBH.

xoxyx

xoxyx wrote: »

What I would like to see is a cycling culture whereby running red lights is frowned upon. At the moment, it's not only seen as ok, but it's actually considered good practice.

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Not true. Only by some. Previous threads have done this exact point to death with a split on right/wrong ever present.

I'm putting the point across based on my own experience. Admittedly, the people who use this forum are probably the ones who are less likely to break lights - but, I can say with my hand on my heart that the vast majority of cyclists I encounter don't stop at red lights. And I'm talking approx. 99%.

oflahero

xoxyx wrote: »

Mods - I wonder would it be worth a sticky about not running red lights and trying to create a culture where cyclists themselves say that this isn't acceptable?

Jaysis. Sounds like the online equivalent of those pious 'I'm for Peace' bumper stickers you used to see on cars a few years ago. Eh, so if I don't sport one of those, I'm all for violent armed conflict, right?

Lusk Doyle

You mean like this? 'wearing funny clothes'

xoxyx

droidus wrote: »

I see it everyday, and I've provided some video evidence in my previous post.

I'm not denying it happens. What I'm saying is, the proportion of road offences committed by cyclists compared to motorists speaks for itself!

droidus wrote: »

Tell me something - when you see a pedestrian breaking a light or doing something stupid when crossing the road, do you automatically think - F**king pedestrians - shouldn't even be on the road!! ? I dont - I simply think - that guys an idiot/arsehole. I dont assume every person with legs is the same.

Quick answer - pedestrians aren't road users. Serious difference.

droidus wrote: »

The problem here is not simply the behaviour of cyclists. Its the psychology of driving, and its particular Irish variant, where anyone moving slowly or not in a car is 'in the way' on the road and is seen as an obstacle to be avoided, forced off the road or moaned about.

The fact is that you cant win this battle. If every cyclist obeyed every light, the complaint would be about them being 'too slow', or 'not wearing a helmet' or 'wearing funny clothes'.

It shouldn't be a battle. Road rules should be obeyed by road users.

droidus wrote: »

Ive been driving and cycling for years. I regularly see everyone do stupid things on the road and though many cyclists break lights, Ive never seen one seriously threaten anyone else's safely. It can be annoying and I dont do it myself, but in 99% of cases its not that big a deal TBH.

Irrespective of the 1% when it is a big deal, it's not about the safety - it's about the protocol. Drivers could run lights where there's no traffic coming, but they don't. Would it be sensible to introduce a structure whereby drivers can run through red pedestrian lights when they don't see a pedestrian? Or, are the rules in place for a reason? Give a person a license to break the law when they see fit, and I'll show you a disaster sooner or later.

xoxyx

oflahero wrote: »

Jaysis. Sounds like the online equivalent of those pious 'I'm for Peace' bumper stickers you used to see on cars a few years ago. Eh, so if I don't sport one of those, I'm all for violent armed conflict, right?

True. Because violent armed conflict is seen on our streets every day of the week?

Lusk Doyle

But your 99% may not be a representative sample. What if I said that I saw only approx 10% breaking the lights? Again, not a representative sample but much less than the 99% that you see.

Unless a study is actually done by the RSA or equal approved other party then the % being bandied about means nothing really IMO.

BTW - I agree with you in that it's bad and should not be done regardless of your chosen mode of transport.

seamus

xoxyx wrote: »

I'm not denying it happens. What I'm saying is, the proportion of road offences committed by cyclists compared to motorists speaks for itself!

It doesn't actually. In fact it's practically unquantifiable.

Adherence to speed limits varies between zones. Reports found that more than 90% of drivers in Dublins 30km/h zone, drive below the limit.

It's fair to say that anyone who drives a car on a daily basis will break the law at least once that day. Whether that's speeding, failing to stop for an amber light, failing to stop behind the white line, etc, doesn't really matter. They will break the law and they will do it willingly and in full knowledge that they're not supposed to. The fact is that it's impossible to quantify the level of law-breaking and as such impossible to declare that cyclists break the law more often.

The only difference really is a difference in perception. So while stopping for red lights is considered important for most motorists, it's not considered important for many cyclists. In much the same way that adhering to speed limits is not considered important to most motorists.

xoxyx

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

But your 99% may not be a representative sample. What if I said that I saw only approx 10% breaking the lights? Again, not a representative sample but much less than the 99% that you see.

Unless a study is actually done by the RSA or equal approved other party then the % being bandied about means nothing really IMO.

BTW - I agree with you in that it's bad and should not be done regardless of your chosen mode of transport.

Cheers.

No, I'm not trying to say that my 99% is a true representative sample. I'm not in a positive to give a representative sample - all I can do is present what I see. However, my 99% sample group is a strong basis to prove my argument. In fact, your 10% sample would still prove the case that 1 out of 10 of cyclists don't obey the rules of the road - and you can present that however you want - it's never going to be a good thing!

xoxyx

seamus wrote: »

It doesn't actually. In fact it's practically unquantifiable.

Adherence to speed limits varies between zones. Reports found that more than 90% of drivers in Dublins 30km/h zone, drive below the limit.

It's fair to say that anyone who drives a car on a daily basis will break the law at least once that day. Whether that's speeding, failing to stop for an amber light, failing to stop behind the white line, etc, doesn't really matter. They will break the law and they will do it willingly and in full knowledge that they're not supposed to. The fact is that it's impossible to quantify the level of law-breaking and as such impossible to declare that cyclists break the law more often.

The only difference really is a difference in perception. So while stopping for red lights is considered important for most motorists, it's not considered important for many cyclists. In much the same way that adhering to speed limits is not considered important to most motorists.

Ok - I acknowledge what you're saying. I wasn't aware of the argument that most motorists are breaking the law on a daily basis - point taken.

However, this cannot detract from the fact that running a red light is a serious breach or the rules of the road. Are you making the argument that several wrongs make a right?

Lusk Doyle

xoxyx wrote: »

Cheers.

No, I'm not trying to say that my 99% is a true representative sample. I'm not in a positive to give a representative sample - all I can do is present what I see. However, my 99% sample group is a strong basis to prove my argument. In fact, your 10% sample would still prove the case that 1 out of 10 of cyclists don't obey the rules of the road - and you can present that however you want - it's never going to be a good thing!

Except that I meant to say "of all road users". Not just bike riders (ITV4 commentary slang included for good effect).

droidus

90% of motorists surveyed by the AA said they routinely break the speed limit in the 30kph zone. I have a speedo on the bike and I regularly clock motorists breaking the speed limit. Then there's overtaking in the wrong lane etc...

On my commute, at practically every set of lights I see drivers breaking the law. Moving into the advanced stop area, breaking red lights, breaking amber lights when they could stop, moving into yellow boxes when they way isnt clear.

In nearly every bus lane at every time of day you'll be bound to find at least one motorcyclist skipping traffic.

These offenses are all on par (and many are worse) than a cyclist breaking a red light. All categories of road users regularly break the law - its just that cyclists are more visible and more noticeable (to drivers) as they are not motorists.

EDIT - Seamus got there first.

Lusk Doyle

^+1

I do 50 - 60k a year in the car and see much more bad habits by drivers than cyclists.

jameverywhere

I stopped running red lights after two incidents on the bike. First was when I misjudged an amber light and went plowing into some pedestrians who had the green man--and got cussed out for it. Rightly so, but it was an accident at least (I thought their light would still be red when I reached the end of the intersection). Second was getting stopped by a Gard and chewed out for breaking a ped light.

I always stop for ped lights, but even so I regularly get surprised by pedestrians who insist on crossing before the stop line or in-between cars when I'm coming up in the bike lane or something. I'd hate to be the one doing the same to them by running up in their space where they're actually legally supposed to cross.

There are rare instances where breaking lights can actually be safer than waiting but those cases are, like I said, rare. In such a case, do what will keep you safe.

If it's a big deal to me to go thru the ped light NOW, I dismount and walk thru it.

Turning left on red is something I'm undecided on. If it's clearly safe, then ok. Then again I'm from America where right on red (provided no one is coming, obviously) is legal even in cars.

droidus

xoxyx wrote: »

Ok - I acknowledge what you're saying. I wasn't aware of the argument that most motorists are breaking the law on a daily basis - point taken.

However, this cannot detract from the fact that running a red light is a serious breach or the rules of the road. Are you making the argument that several wrongs make a right?

Speeding is much more dangerous and just as commonplace.

There is a strong argument that cyclists should be allowed turn left on red and (IMO) treat pedestrian crossings as zebra crossings as the danger they pose to themselves and other road users is far less than if a motorist did the same thing.

DirkVoodoo

xoxyx wrote: »

Cheers.

No, I'm not trying to say that my 99% is a true representative sample. I'm not in a positive to give a representative sample - all I can do is present what I see. However, my 99% sample group is a strong basis to prove my argument. In fact, your 10% sample would still prove the case that 1 out of 10 of cyclists don't obey the rules of the road - and you can present that however you want - it's never going to be a good thing!

I'm still awake. This is all I need to hear really.

Quoting your own observation as a measured scientific fast is laughable, 64% of posters on boards know that. I know, I've seen it.

How can you expect people to take you seriously when it seems that you have a slight bias towards RLJers? It annoys you, we get it, it annoys most people. End of.

xoxyx

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Except that I meant to say "of all road users". Not just bike riders (ITV4 commentary slang included for good effect).

This is turning into conjecture city, and my original point is being lost. The fact remains that cyclists (of which I am one) are constantly running red lights. I fail to see why a road user - such as a cyclist - should be given free rein to break the rules of the road. I would love to hear why cyclists should be allowed to run red lights so that I can consider that point of view. As it stands, it shouldn't be allowed, and I really don't understand the tolerance of it!