Cork Airport Expansion

Hogzy

Cork Airport has a development plan that will effectively treble the size of the current airport. According to the plan, the airport will be developed over a phased basis from 2015.
The cargo area, currently located to the north–east of the airport, will be moved to the south–east of the airport grounds, the current location of the general aviation area. In moving here, the general aviation area will be transferred directly opposite the main runway to the south–west of airport, just south of Runway 7. Work on this aspect of the plan is expected to begin in 2016.
Using space from the removal of the cargo area, the main terminal can then be extended northwards, allowing new fixed gates to be built. This would effectively double the current space for aircraft using Cork. The old terminal will be demolished allowing the current terminal to also extend to the south if required. It is expected that this work will begin in 2017 when passenger numbers are predicted to exceed three million, the current limit of the airport.
The main runway 17/35 is to be extended, with feasibility studies due to be carried out in 2012. This will allow for the accodommation of long–haul aircraft such as the Boeing 747 and Airbus A340 at the airport. Work should begin on the extension of the runway when the cargo area has been moved and the extension of the terminal has gotten underway.
The road network and public transport infrastructure will also be developed to cope with increasing passenger traffic. This will comprise the upgrade of the N27 to motorway standard with two lanes in each direction as well as a dedicated bus lane for city–bound traffic. The roundabout at the entrance of the airport will be enhanced with an under-pass to allow traffic between Cork and Kinsale to avoid the roundabout, thus allowing extra capacity on the roundabout itself. Work on the upgrade of the roundabout is scheduled to begin in 2015.

I read this under the Development Section of Cork Airports Wikipedia Page.

Is it true that the Cargo facility is being moved to where the GA aircraft are based? And is the Terminal expanding? Surely that cant be th case anymore considering passenger numbers are down at Cork?

It also says that the runway is being expanded? None of the footnoted links are working for me.

radar0976

Hogzy wrote: »

I read this under the Development Section of Cork Airports Wikipedia Page.

Is it true that the Cargo facility is being moved to where the GA aircraft are based? And is the Terminal expanding? Surely that cant be th case anymore considering passenger numbers are down at Cork?

It also says that the runway is being expanded? None of the footnoted links are working for me.

As an avid Cork spotter I'd love to see all the above, but I wonder when this development plan was written. Presumably during Celtic Tiger era ? I'm only guessing.
Sadly I would guess in the current climate that the chances of the above happening are virtually zero. I presume Mr. Varadkar wouldn't be too much in favour of it anyway, especially seeing as the airport is struggling to make a profit and has not many new routes in the pipeline.

donvito99

How bout extending the runway in Dublin while they're at it.

Suits

Work like this can only be done on a market basis. It must be a "built it and they will come sort of arrangement". There is no use extending the runway and building more gates if nobody wants to fly in there.
Long haul aircraft currently have no need to fly to Cork. If they wont fly to SNN the what makes anyone think they'll go to Cork?
Most flag carriers see DUB as the portal to all of Ireland as you can be in all the major centres within 3 hours from there. Cork may pick up charters operated by wide body aircraft but a regular T/A service would not be economical for any airline. Why would Aer Lingus operate 2 330s to JFK both half full when they can operate one full one from DUB with half the cost. Cork doesnt have the population for a regular service and Ireland does not have the population for more than 1 T/A airport.

roundymac

That plan was put forward when the terminal was being built back in 2004/2005. All that changed when the costs of construction went through the roof so to speak and the bottom started to fall out of the market.
@SUITS, United and Delta use SNN, plenty of passengers down in Cork, 2.4m last year as against 1.6. in SNN. However having said that T/A out of SNN and shorthaul out of Cork are well established and in this fragile economy it would be madness to go tinkering with them. If the M20 or a decent dual carrigeway was built between the two cities there would be a benefit to both airports. I understand that AN TASICE are/will be one of the main objectors to any upgrade of the road.

Suits

roundymac wrote: »

@SUITS, United and Delta use SNN, plenty of passengers down in Cork, 2.4m last year as against 1.6. in SNN. However having said that T/A out of SNN and shorthaul out of Cork are well established and in this fragile economy it would be madness to go tinkering with them. If the M20 or a decent dual carrigeway was built between the two cities there would be a benefit to both airports. I understand that AN TASICE are/will be one of the main objectors to any upgrade of the road.

Yes they use SNN but then dont all rush in falling over eachother to get a slot in SNN.
The issue is scale. US airlines view an island with 4 million people as being rather sparce given the population they cater to in the US. For Americans a 3 hour commute to get a T/A flight is fairly routine so I doubt they would invest too much in a scheduled service from Cork given Dublin's easy link to Cork. Even Belfast struggles to overcome it's proximity to Dublin in the long haul market!

Hogzy

Suits wrote: »

Yes they use SNN but then dont all rush in falling over eachother to get a slot in SNN.
The issue is scale. US airlines view an island with 4 million people as being rather sparce given the population they cater to in the US. For Americans a 3 hour commute to get a T/A flight is fairly routine so I doubt they would invest too much in a scheduled service from Cork given Dublin's easy link to Cork. Even Belfast struggles to overcome it's proximity to Dublin in the long haul market!

The American Market and the Irish Market are very different. If a Shannon route is profitable then there is no reason that a Cork route wouldnt be profitable.
If TA was available from Cork there is no reason why US Airways and Continental wouldnt up sticks and head down to Cork where there is a much larger population. Cork airport is also an option for Waterford customers who may (for what ever reason they have) find Cork a better option to fly out of than Dublin. Be it cheaper parking, shorter distance, less traffic etc etc.

If TA can survive in Shannon then i have no doubt it wouldnt survive in Cork.

westdub

One big advantage that both Shannon and Dublin have over Cork in the T/A market is....... The US Customs pre-clearance....

Hogzy

westdub wrote: »

One big advantage that both Shannon and Dublin have over Cork in the T/A market is....... The US Customs pre-clearance....

True but how hard can that be to implement into another airport?

westdub

Well they certainly wont do it for only one or two flights a day that would be flying out of Cork....

corcaigh07

why not give Ryanair their wish and let them have the old terminal? get the numbers up first, even if its short-haul...

Tenger

westdub wrote: »

One big advantage that both Shannon and Dublin have over Cork in the T/A market is....... The US Customs pre-clearance....

The CBP pre-clearance is an Irish option,not limited to just DUB and SNN, no reason that CBP couldn't be set up in ORK if there were several daily T/A flights......



.....can't see that happening though.

roundymac

corcaigh07 wrote: »

why not give Ryanair their wish and let them have the old terminal? get the numbers up first, even if its short-haul...

That idea along with, only one pilot plus an cabin crew member who can use the radio, one toilet on the plane plus paying to use it, and people standing on the plane, are amongst the most stupid ideas put forward by the Ryanair publicity team that was swallowed hook line and sinker by the politicians and now it appears by members of Boards.
Does any one seriously think that building a new terminal and then leasing out the old one to someone who will then operate it in competion to it is a good idea? Cork Airport is in profit from an operational point. It's repaying the debt that was dumped on it in a "Bertie type political stroke" that is affecting Cork. Do you seriously think the the building of the new terminal would have gone ahead if that senario could have been foreseen. Remember it was gurranteed debt free status by Semaus Brennen RIP who was the minister in charge.

A320

Yep and then clueless cullen and dempsey came along to twist the knife!!

gaius c

roundymac wrote: »

That idea along with, only one pilot plus an cabin crew member who can use the radio, one toilet on the plane plus paying to use it, and people standing on the plane, are amongst the most stupid ideas put forward by the Ryanair publicity team that was swallowed hook line and sinker by the politicians and now it appears by members of Boards.
Does any one seriously think that building a new terminal and then leasing out the old one to someone who will then operate it in competion to it is a good idea? Cork Airport is in profit from an operational point. It's repaying the debt that was dumped on it in a "Bertie type political stroke" that is affecting Cork. Do you seriously think the the building of the new terminal would have gone ahead if that senario could have been foreseen. Remember it was gurranteed debt free status by Semaus Brennen RIP who was the minister in charge.

I'm interested in this. Any background to the story please?

notharrypotter

It has to do with who pays for the Terminal and other works done in Cork.

Covering operational costs and historic debt were mentioned by Leo Varadaker in 2014.

There are several other articles on it.

I would suggest you Google and decide for yourself where the actual situation lies.

Lots of partisan posters here.

Jack1985

I remember those development plans well at the time, and I shudder to think the debt Cork would be in now had say the economy kept on going for a further 3 years to allow that development go-ahead. It remains positive though the plans drawn up are actually well thought out, the airport's location can't be changed now that has to be excepted. For now, Cork Airport needs to find its two feet and recover from there. I honestly can't see any infrastructural development until, the day maybe just possibly arrived 3m was surpassed again. The worst thing is now is the ideal time for Governments to be borrowing for infrastructural developments with interest rates pre 2008, people could only dream of.

roundymac

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-county-council-calls-for-major-push-to-rid-airport-of-113m-debt-306618.html
That should be a interesting meeting, I shudder to think of the suggestions that will be put forward by these guys. A city Lord Mayor was advocating competing terminals a few years ago.:eek: Thats a bit like Dunne Stores in Patrick Street relocating next door to the Savoy and then leasing their vacated shop to either Tesco's or Supervalu.

kub

Cork is in limbo and here we have the usual local politicians paying it lip service as if that will change anything.

I admire the way Dublin now has over 21 million passengers a year. Why would DAA be too bothered about a little airport down the road that could compete with it, well in a very minor way of course.

A320

kub wrote: »

Why would DAA be too bothered about a little airport down the road that could compete with it, well in a very minor way of course.

Emm because maybe they operate it and it makes an operational profit and seeing as Shannon got a freebie it would be in their interests to compete against a now competitor

kub

A320 wrote: »

Emm because maybe they operate it and it makes an operational profit and seeing as Shannon got a freebie it would be in their interests to compete against a now competitor

I appreciate what you are saying, it just does not appear as if the DAA are doing much for Cork considering that since Shannon was handed over passenger numbers at Cork have gone down

A320

kub wrote: »

I appreciate what you are saying, it just does not appear as if the DAA are doing much for Cork considering that since Shannon was handed over passenger numbers at Cork have gone down

Exactly they don't care but it should be in their interest to care,my guess is too many vested interests politically with the Shannon crowd.

roundymac

The Shannon crowd are whinging over on ppRune that they did not get their status free.

From the Cork Thread on ppRune.
I'm afraid that talk of SNN's and ORK's debt being assumed by the DAA cannot be compared. Let's not forget the enormous cash cow- Aer Rianta International, that originated and was based in Shannon that was taken by the DAA as part of the setting-free of Shannon. This prestigious and highly-profitable entity represented a proud part of Shannon's legacy of commercial innovation in a highly competitive international marketplace and its transfer to Dublin was a cruel blow to the western airport. Unfortunately there's nothing comparable for Cork to trade for a similar debt-free status.

A320

roundymac wrote: »

The Shannon crowd are whinging over on ppRune that they did not get their status free.

From the Cork Thread on ppRune.
I'm afraid that talk of SNN's and ORK's debt being assumed by the DAA cannot be compared. Let's not forget the enormous cash cow- Aer Rianta International, that originated and was based in Shannon that was taken by the DAA as part of the setting-free of Shannon. This prestigious and highly-profitable entity represented a proud part of Shannon's legacy of commercial innovation in a highly competitive international marketplace and its transfer to Dublin was a cruel blow to the western airport. Unfortunately there's nothing comparable for Cork to trade for a similar debt-free status.

Ha what about the free airport and lands and free handouts over the years

kub

A320 wrote: »

Ha what about the free airport and lands and free handouts over the years

And the hassle about the pure parochial Shannon stop over.

imurdaddy

roundymac wrote: »

The Shannon crowd are whinging over on ppRune that they did not get their status free.

From the Cork Thread on ppRune.
I'm afraid that talk of SNN's and ORK's debt being assumed by the DAA cannot be compared. Let's not forget the enormous cash cow- Aer Rianta International, that originated and was based in Shannon that was taken by the DAA as part of the setting-free of Shannon. This prestigious and highly-profitable entity represented a proud part of Shannon's legacy of commercial innovation in a highly competitive international marketplace and its transfer to Dublin was a cruel blow to the western airport. Unfortunately there's nothing comparable for Cork to trade for a similar debt-free status.

Aer Rianta was worth more than any debt right off! Which was caused in the first place by DAA, as you can see with Cork DAA are only concerned with Dublin! Be prepared for ORK to be left to stagnate as SNN was. As for shannon getting its status free id much prefer Aer Rianta! Had cork anything like AR to strip? If not its stuck with the debts id say.

A320

imurdaddy wrote: »

Aer Rianta was worth more than any debt right off! Which was caused in the first place by DAA, as you can see with Cork DAA are only concerned with Dublin! Be prepared for ORK to be left to stagnate as SNN was. As for shannon getting its status free id much prefer Aer Rianta! Had cork anything like AR to strip? If not its stuck with the debts id say.

But it would be some other excuse from the Shannon lobby if ARI wasn't part of the deal.a poster on pprune said the cork airport business park is amount some sort of asset.

imurdaddy

A320 wrote: »

But it would be some other excuse from the Shannon lobby if ARI wasn't part of the deal.a poster on pprune said the cork airport business park is amount some sort of asset.

I just stated a fact. There are no buts ARI is far more valuable than the DAA inflicted debt.

Anyway its a cork thread and I was just pointing out there was no free bailout for Shannon and I doubt there will be for cork.

Just out of interest do you not hold DAA responsible for corks currently decline? im sure you can see the similarities on how SNN was treated. who will the cork lobby blame?

and just to state i have nothing against cork I use it a good few times a year, infact more than Shannon in 2014,

JCX BXC

Cork supports seem to blain their comptetitor (shannon) for their problems, when Shannon hasn't done a anything to cork. It's all under Dublin's belt, but I don't see any posts about that.

A320

Carnacalla wrote: »

Cork supports seem to blain their comptetitor (shannon) for their problems, when Shannon hasn't done a anything to cork. It's all under Dublin's belt, but I don't see any posts about that.

I posted earlier about the DAA not caring.there is no polical cork lobby like SNN had/have that's the problem.

imurdaddy

A320 wrote: »

I posted earlier about the DAA not caring.there is no polical cork lobby like SNN had/have that's the problem.

to be fair thats corks problem! people getting behind and lobbying for there local services is only normal!

A320

imurdaddy wrote: »

to be fair thats corks problem! people getting behind and lobbying for there local services is only normal!

It went further than a local lobby with Shannon.the stopover was proof alone on that at national level not to mention the restricted runway length at dublin years back

imurdaddy

A320 wrote: »

It went further than a local lobby with Shannon.the stopover was proof alone on that at national level not to mention the restricted runway length at dublin years back

True even though the stopover was a relic from the days when aircraft didn't have the range. but what im trying to say is DAA is a bigger treat to Corks future than Shannon. maybe im mad but its more than a fluke that ORK is suffering the same fate as SNN.

SNN cant do as much damage to ORK as DAA.

kub

imurdaddy wrote: »

True even though the stopover was a relic from the days when aircraft didn't have the range. but what im trying to say is DAA is a bigger treat to Corks future than Shannon. maybe im mad but its more than a fluke that ORK is suffering the same fate as SNN.

SNN cant do as much damage to ORK as DAA.

I know some people who work in ORK, they make local decisions, good logical ones usually in order to improve business. But in order for anything to change it has to be rubber stamped by HQ aka DAA. The usual response is a negative because we don't do that in Dublin.

A320

A320 wrote: »

Exactly they don't care but it should be in their interest to care,my guess is too many vested interests politically with the Shannon crowd.

Of course they bloody care, they're running a business. The DAA may be the current owners but the local board and management will be doing their hardest for Cork they won't be happy sitting back doing nothing watching the airport slowly close down. To blame the DAA solely is far too simplistic.

Shannon are in a much better position financially as they have started off as a new company with NO debt, they can offer low charges for to entice new business. They can afford to massively reduce parking charges to attract passengers. Cork still has to be able to fund their debts banks will not let them reduce cash flow.

It's not a level playing field, not even close. Shannon is taking business from Cork, Kerry and Knock airports.

Part of the problem is there are too many airports on the west coast close to each other. Cork, Kerry, Shannon, Galway, Knock, Sligo, Donegal and Eglinton. Compared to the East Coast with just waterford Dublin and two in Belfast. That's 8 versus 4.

Cork should be independently run and debt free, if it were debt free it would start to give Shannon a very good run for its money.

BonkeyDonker

Deleted User wrote: »

Part of the problem is there are too many airports on the west coast close to each other. Cork, Kerry, Shannon, Galway, Knock, Sligo, Donegal and Eglinton. Compared to the East Coast with just waterford Dublin and two in Belfast. That's 8 versus 4.

This - plus if you look at the respective population bases it probably skews it even more in favor of the east coast airports.

man98

I must say that Cork is my preferred international airport. Due to the DAA, it still has nothing to offer passengers - except CSA's Prague route. The DAA, as well as lower fees in Shannon, will slowly strangle Cork. The question isn't what can be done to save it, but rather when can it be done?

AndyBoBandy

Hogzy wrote: »

If TA was available from Cork there is no reason why US Airways and Continental wouldnt up sticks and head down to Cork where there is a much larger population. Cork airport is also an option for Waterford customers who may (for what ever reason they have) find Cork a better option to fly out of than Dublin. Be it cheaper parking, shorter distance, less traffic etc etc.

You could say the same for SNN. It doesn't just serve Clare/Limerick, but Galway as well.

Waterford folk may similarly also find Dublin a better option than Cork. Given the now excellent motorway/duel carriageway links between the 2 cities, the driving time is only 4 minutes longer to Dublin airport than to Cork airport (as per Google Maps).