No Christening, did i do the right thing?

safarigirl

I have a 7 month old child. we had a naming ceremony for her instead of a christening. This was a huge thing for my partners family to except and understand. My mother in law threated to christen her behid ours backs if we didnt do it!!
To cut a very long story short i am left with a terrible worry, which is, did i do the right thing?
I mean i did the right thing for me and was true to my beliefs but in doing that have i made my daughters life a very difficult one?. where we live right now if she goes to the local school in country side she is likely to be the only non catholic or Pagan in the class and miss out on the pretty dress stuff, at communion time, which is all a 7 year old girl will understand no doubt.
I love where we live but now we are thinking of moving into ballincollig where there are bigger schools where there will much more likely be a bigger mix of children of different cultures and religions.
I am not sure what to do for the best all i want is to be happy and for my daughter to be too. I worry about this everyday.
Did i do the right thing? I would really like to hear from parents who didnt christen thier children, what is school like for them and how do you explain why there is no communion party and no church stuff? To mention i am from england and had no idea nearly all the schools here were Catholic until i had my daughter!
Cheers in advance.

muppeteer

You absolutely done the right thing.
Every year more and more parents are choosing to break the status quo and showing everyone that Ireland is not a homogeneous pasty Catholic little island anymore. The more people who refuse to bow to the social pressure of faux baptisms and communions just to get along the easier it becomes.
You will also have four years for further changes to take place in the education system before your child starts. Hopefully some of the efforts to reduce the amount of denominational schools will have kicked in by then.
As for getting all dressed up in 7 years time I'm sure a subtable distraction can be found if it seems to be bothering her.
Plenty have done what you'll be doing and come out fine.

If you do happen to change your mind later on should you need a baptismal cert for a certain school or such I wouldn't blame you either. Your kid comes first.
And being selfish I hope you'll stick to your guns:)

Oh and your mother in law can go swivel for making a threat like that. Completely out of order.

lazygal

You absolutely did the right thing. Even though i haven't popped our sprog yet we've been getting comments on christening. Had a thread about it here actually. The more we thought about it the angrier we got. Neither of our families are even slightly religious-so any ceremonies they do decide on are purely on an a la carte basis. I seem to know more theology than my 'religious' sister in law and her husband. We have simply told everyone that the welcome ceremony will be held three months after baby arrives. Any comments on "ah would you not christen the child, what about school, what about communion' etc are not entertained.
I have pointed out that communion and confirmation are things not every single child in the class does any more and that even though they might feel left out, I didn't have everything every other child had in my class, but just because someone else has something or does something, doesn't mean we have to follow. The more people give into familial, societal or educational pressure to have a ceremony they don't believe in, the longer this nonsense will continue.

Sean Bateman

It's just my view, but I don't think that you've done the right thing.

I am not a practising Catholic but my daughter was still Christened.

I feel that it was right to give her the opportunity to be a Catholic and that it should then be up to her when she's older whether she wants to continue with it.

Making your child an outcast because of your own views is a little selfish in my view.

dlofnep

You did the right thing.

Sarky

Sean Bateman wrote: »

It's just my view, but I don't think that you've done the right thing.

I am not a practising Catholic but my daughter was still Christened.

I feel that it was right to give her the opportunity to be a Catholic and that it should then be up to her when she's older whether she wants to continue with it.

Making your child an outcast because of your own views is a little selfish in my view.

So when exactly at the christening was the child offered the opportunity to NOT be Christian? I mean, instead of someone making the choice for her?

dlofnep

Sean Bateman wrote: »

I feel that it was right to give her the opportunity to be a Catholic and that it should then be up to her when she's older whether she wants to continue with it.

She has that opportunity, when she is old enough and wise enough to make an educated decision. Labelling a child as a catholic child is not giving them an opportunity, it's indoctrination.

lazygal

Sean Bateman wrote: »

It's just my view, but I don't think that you've done the right thing.

I am not a practising Catholic but my daughter was still Christened.

I feel that it was right to give her the opportunity to be a Catholic and that it should then be up to her when she's older whether she wants to continue with it.

Making your child an outcast because of your own views is a little selfish in my view.

We are giving our child the opportunity to be any faith they want. Your child, on the other hand, can never opt out of the catholic faith. In my eyes the parents who insist on indoctrinating their infant children into a faith that they can never ever extricate themselves from are the selfish ones. Just because YOU feel its giving her a choice, which is patently is not, does not mean others are selfish for letting their children chose a faith or decide to have no religion.

why dont you "afford her the opportunity" to become a muslim or a hindu or any of the other religions since you're so open minded? take her along to their ceremonies as well

this attitude really kills me
she could get christened ANY time of her life if she wanted to make the choice for herself
it's not now or never
same goes for you OP

MagicMarker

OP, you did the right thing, don't mind the gobshítes who tell you otherwise.

darjeeling

Sean Bateman wrote: »

It's just my view, but I don't think that you've done the right thing.

I am not a practising Catholic but my daughter was still Christened.

I feel that it was right to give her the opportunity to be a Catholic and that it should then be up to her when she's older whether she wants to continue with it.

Making your child an outcast because of your own views is a little selfish in my view.

Outcast? For someone to be an outcast, there have to be casters-out. Who be they here, and should they not reflect more on what they are doing?

Annmarie2

You did the right thing. There is nothing to stop her getting christened in the future if that is what she decides.

Sean Bateman

bexstar wrote: »

I mean i did the right thing for me and was true to my beliefs but in doing that have i made my daughters life a very difficult one?. where we live right now if she goes to the local school in country side she is likely to be the only non catholic or Pagan in the class and miss out on the pretty dress stuff, at communion time, which is all a 7 year old girl will understand no doubt

darjeeling wrote: »

Outcast? For someone to be an outcast, there have to be casters-out. Who be they here, and should they not reflect more on what they are doing?

The OP seems to be fearful about her child feeling "different".

There's no right or wrong answer. I just happen to think that it's better for the child to "opt in" and then do what they want at a later date.

dlofnep

Sean Bateman wrote: »

There's no right or wrong answer.

Yes there is, and yours is the wrong answer.

quietriot

Sean Bateman wrote: »

It's just my view, but I don't think that you've done the right thing.

I am not a practising Catholic but my daughter was still Christened.

By this you mean that you're a Catholic but aren't arsed subscribing to the actual lifestyle dictated by the book governing the religion, yet you'll happily tick the box come census time or beat your chest in anger over the "oppression" of the Catholic church.

I feel that it was right to give her the opportunity to be a Catholic and that it should then be up to her when she's older whether she wants to continue with it.

The opportunity to be Catholic? Did you take her to the local mosque, to see if she wanted the opportunity to be muslim? How about to the local synagogue, to see if she wanted to become Jewish? What other opportunities was she afforded?

You gave her no such opportunity, I'm afraid. What you have done is indoctrinate your child into a religion which she does not understand and can no longer opt out from. You have put a label on your child which as it stands cannot be removed. There was no "opportunity" afforded, your child has no comprehension of what being a Catholic means. All it means to her is that she got the same as some of the other children in her class.

Making your child an outcast because of your own views is a little selfish in my view.

I'm sorry Sean but your insecurities are showing. You, on the other hand, have removed the right for your child to make her own mind up when she is at an age where she can understand the significance, by indoctrinating her into something she cannot now leave. You have afforded her no opportunities but instead actively removed them from her.

Why did you do this? The same reason you're a "non-practicing" Catholic, of course. So that you can feel a part of something, although you're not willing to put the work in obviously, and you feel that your child should feel a part of the same something.

Or you merely caved to the pressure of your Catholic wife, parents or inlaws. Either way the whole thing stinks of weakness or an inherent, and quite desperate, insecurity in yourself which you've projected onto your innocent child under the guise of giving her an "opportunity".

darjeeling

Sean Bateman wrote: »

The OP seems to be fearful about her child feeling "different".

Ok, we can perhaps chalk that one down to a difference in interpretation of the word outcast.

Sean Bateman

Lot of anti Church keyboard warriors in this thread but little intelligent comment.

For that reason, I'm out.

quietriot

Sean Bateman wrote: »

There's no right or wrong answer. I just happen to think that it's better for the child to "opt in" and then do what they want at a later date.

Opt in to what? Whichever social pressures come around? Or just Catholicism? Due to your inherent bias toward it given that you're a "non-practicing"(lol) Catholic?

If the former then I suppose you'll be fully supportive of her caving to all the social pressures that come with growing up, not limited to sexual activity, alcohol and other recreational drugs.

If the latter then you're simply a hypocrite.

You've removed opportunities from your child in your attempt to satisfy others, most likely to ease the stress it'd cause yourself. You, Sean, are the self-ish parent in this thread, not the original poster.

henryporter

You did the right thing OP - you're also right that it's going to be difficult for your child to grow up in a rural community where such independence of thought is frowned upon - think of it as character forming though and stick to your initial thinking on the matter. (As Shakespeare put it 'unto thine own self be true' - as opposed to the general religious belief which is do whatever you like as you'll be forgiven for it anyway!).

Also keep that mother in law away from your child too as I've heard stories of unchristened children being spirited away for a quick baptism - my own mother in law was carping on at the sister in law for not getting hers baptised in case anything happened to the child and he ended up in 'limbo'.

Liamario

Sean Bateman wrote: »

The OP seems to be fearful about her child feeling "different".

There's no right or wrong answer. I just happen to think that it's better for the child to "opt in" and then do what they want at a later date.

As has already been asked, why didn't you opt your child into Judaism or some other religion?

I suspect it's less to do with giving the child a choice (which by the way; doing what you did is the exact opposite of giving a choice) and more to do with you saving face and/or teaching your child that it's ok to bow to peer pressure.

quietriot

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Lot of anti Church keyboard warriors in this thread but little intelligent comment.

For that reason, I'm out.

Like the good lapsed Catholic you are, when faced with questions you simply cannot answer logically, you turn the cheek and blame those asking. Run along Sean, I'm sure you've yet more areas of parenting to fail at, at hand.

MagicMarker

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Lot of anti Church keyboard warriors in this thread but little intelligent comment.

For that reason, I'm out.

You're out because people are asking you questions that you don't have answers for.

The Black Oil

Ah, the anti tag. We can't have people questioning things now, can we?

pawnacide

The issue obviously isn't whether or not the OP did the right thing in relation to rights and wrongs of indoctrination but whether this will have a real world effect on the future of her child.

The answer to this is not a straight forward yes or no because it depends on things like location, regional attitudes and could even come down the the personal opinion of her teacher.

If the child is in a small country school and is the only non catholic child in the class then of course it will have an effect and not just at communion and confirmation time.
Most catholic schools will take part in various religious ceremonies throughout the year .. masses, carol singing, nativity plays etc. Once the school is aware the child is not catholic I doubt they'll agree to their participation and I also doubt if the parents would want it.

In larger towns I can't see it being an issue as they're used to a multi cultural cohort. Ballincollig should be fine, there's a population of 20k, bound to be several thousand non catholics.

samina

I'm a catholic and I think you did the right thing. My children go to a church of Ireland school and make their communion outside of school. So I have the opposite problem as mine are in tge minority making theirs. There is no way I would have them baptized in a Protestant church as I am not Protestant. You will raise your child as you see fit and it most likely won't be as big a deal as you anticipate.

Liamario

pawnacide wrote: »

Most catholic schools will take part in various religious ceremonies throughout the year .. masses, carol singing, nativity plays etc.......

That's not entirely accurate. I grew up in a small village and other than communion/confirmation etc. I never took part in any other religious activity. In fact none of the kids except the lick arses (who the other kids didn't like), took part in nativity plays etc...

Those sort of events and participation in same are not considered cool and I can assure you, that other kids if anything will be jealous of those not being forced to participate. And the vast majority WILL be forced.

quietriot

To the original poster,
I'm not a parent myself, however I can answer from the point of view of someone who was raised without religion in their life, surrounded by friends who were indoctrinated into various religions (mainly Christian).

You've done the right thing. My parents, a Catholic and Protestant (turned Atheist), decided to forego indoctrinating me when I was a child - when I was too young to even understand the concept of religion, their teaching and significance, let alone the affiliations they could potential make for me without my understanding and hence any real consent.

They decided to not involve me in religion, opting to let me decide when I was old enough to understand it for myself. I personally saw religion for what it is and never involved myself in it as a consequence.

I've a lot of issues with my parents as people, however this act of theirs is something I will love them for until the day I die. I am so happy that they took such a reasoned approach to it and how it has worked out for me.

I will also say this - it had absolutely no bearing on my childhood. I always had a great group of friends (catholics/protestants) and I never got nor gave anyone ****e over their religion or my lack of it. Why? Because we had no idea what it was. When we were old enough to understand it, nobody gave a **** anyway, let alone let it segregate us from one another.

I'm sure the Catholic parents around me talked about it though, you know how those Catholics can't just let others live their lives after all.

The only difference it made to my growing up was that the local Catholic ran schools wouldn't let me in, which in retrospect I'm ****ing delighted about as in Protestant schools I never had religion forced on me and had access to rugby

Sin City

Christinings are more traditional than religolus these days like christmas I assume you'll still give your child.preserved at crimbo . Its up to you to have them baptised if thats what you want , but be.prepared for them being teased when their class.mates find out they are different.

byhookorbycrook

There are plenty children of different religions and none in rural schools.If it's not what you want to do,then to heck with anyone else. As to a child being "different", children will comment on everything from lunchboxes to parents' cars,we need to teach children to value themselves for who they are and to teach them resilience.

sephir0th

..and Sean Bateman runs away with his tail between his legs.

strobe

Sin City wrote: »

Christinings are more traditional than religolus these days like christmas I assume you'll still give your child.preserved at crimbo . Its up to you to have them baptised if thats what you want , but be.prepared for them being teased when their class.mates find out they are different.

Thankfully as adults people tend to realise that kids can be dicks about things sometimes (although I don't recall the JW in my class getting teased about the fact he didn't have a communion or sat out religion, we mostly teased him about the fact he was crap at football) but we don't go around altering our beliefs and behaviour and what we think will be best for our own children on the basis that 'kids tease each other'.

Daftendirekt

I'm not a parent, but for what it's worth, you did the right thing. Kudos for doing what you think is best for your kid and not bowing to peer pressure. Had you given in and baptised your daughter, you'd also probably find yourself pressured to have her make her communion and confirmation as well.

Corkfeen

Sin City wrote: »

Christinings are more traditional than religolus these days like christmas I assume you'll still give your child.preserved at crimbo . Its up to you to have them baptised if thats what you want , but be.prepared for them being teased when their class.mates find out they are different.

I never got jam at christmas.:D The bullying argument seems to crop up for literally everything but feck it I was bullied for things out of my parent's and my control. So really its just one of the thousand of random things that it occurs over, not a reason to indoctrinate them.

darjeeling

strobe wrote: »

Thankfully as adults people tend to realise that kids can be dicks about things sometimes (although I don't recall the JW in my class getting teased about the fact he didn't have a communion or sat out religion, we mostly teased him about the fact he was crap at football)

True, and the adults who are in school educating children should know this and make it clear that it's not acceptable for kids to pick on each other over religious differences.

I think we're in for a lot of changes for the better in the education system, and hopefully the assumption that your child had to conform, at least outwardly, to some particular religious 'ethos' (really faith) will be relegated to the past.

quietriot

Sin City wrote: »

Christinings are more traditional than religolus these days like christmas I assume you'll still give your child.preserved at crimbo . Its up to you to have them baptised if thats what you want , but be.prepared for them being teased when their class.mates find out they are different.

They absolutely will not be "teased" by their classmates. Unless, of course, the classmates have pathetic parents who want to make a deal of something that amounts to none of their business or concern.

If that is the case then it is the classmates who have an issue at hand, as they're being brought up by a special type of cretin who feels it fine to single out children merely because they're not made subscribe to the same things that they themselves are.

I grew up without religion and never heard a word about it, simply because children haven't an idea what it is or if/why they should differentiate people based on it. The single people behind such bullying would be parents and to be honest, if I were a parent who chose to raise my children without religion and heard other parents talk about it behind my back I'd approach them and tell them to mind their own f*cking business or I'd get myself involved in theirs.

Sin City

Nothing for christmas?
Jeez thats harsh man lol

Yeah I know kids will, get bullied regardless.

Sin City

strobe wrote: »

Sin City wrote: »

Christinings are more traditional than religolus these days like christmas I assume you'll still give your child.preserved at crimbo . Its up to you to have them baptised if thats what you want , but be.prepared for them being teased when their class.mates find out they are different.

Thankfully as adults people tend to realise that kids can be dicks about things sometimes (although I don't recall the JW in my class getting teased about the fact he didn't have a communion or sat out religion, we mostly teased him about the fact he was crap at football) but we don't go around altering our beliefs and behaviour and what we think will be best for our own children on the basis that 'kids tease each other'.

Yes football will always be the great decider lol. As I said christenings are more traditional than religious. Just because it happens in a church .....

Liamario

@Sin City
I don't know what kids you hung around with, but religion was never even talked about amongst my peers, much less be used as a topic for bullying.

pawnacide

Liamario wrote: »

That's not entirely accurate. I grew up in a small village and other than communion/confirmation etc. I never took part in any other religious activity. In fact none of the kids except the lick arses (who the other kids didn't like), took part in nativity plays etc...

Those sort of events and participation in same are not considered cool and I can assure you, that other kids if anything will be jealous of those not being forced to participate. And the vast majority WILL be forced.

You were lucky, we used to get marched down to the church every first friday.

Hannah2011

Hi there OP,

My post may seem like a strange one - firstly, I've never posted in Atheism, because it's not my place, as a devoted Christian, but it popped up on the opening threads and I thought it looked an interesting topic.

I think you were absoloutely right in what you have done - you are planning on giving your child all the information they need to make a choice when they want and I'm sure you will stand by them whatever choice they make. How can someone argue with something so loving?

Obviously - communion will be a difficult time, but I guess only if your daughter attends a catholic school, otherwise it won't be an issue. (I'm guessing???)

As a parent you always worry about making these decisions. I worry that I will obviously involve my children in my religion from a very early age and really hope they will adopt it - if they don't...well I'll have to deal with it!!

Anyway, forgive my intrusion into this thread - but wanted to give you an alternative opinion.

Sin City

Liamario wrote: »

@Sin City
I don't know what kids you hung around with, but religion was never even talked about amongst my peers, much less be used as a topic for bullying.

I really hope.I'm wrong
But I have heard.of religious.bullying
Admitadly not a lot though

Liamario

pawnacide wrote: »

You were lucky, we used to get marched down to the church every first friday.

Don't get me wrong, we were forced to go to mass every sunday and I was even forced to be an altar boy at one point.
Going to mass and being an altar boy were nothing to brag about. And on reflection, this forceful tactic had the reverse effect of what my parents had hoped.
Also, if I remember correctly, there was probably more teasing for being an altar boy and not skipping mass.

whatdoicare

You made the right decision OP.

I won't be baptising any of mine and if I can, he/she/they will be attending an educate together school.

My mother is like yr mother in law - but guess what? I sat there yesterday on ash Wednesday chatting away with no dirt/ash/whatever that is supposed to be that the priest dobs on my forehead (because I don't practice any religion) and neither did my hypocrite mother - it hadn't even occurred to her to go to mass! I didn't even mention it to her but my husband said it to me on the way home - he's not religious either- although he did put a blob of chocolate on his own forehead to see would she notice.

It's seeing things like that that strengthens our resolve and helps us to know that we're making the correct decision for our children. Fingers crossed by the time our grandchildren come along all this religion in schools nonsense will be done away with.

Also, we have a cunning plan to combat the communion talk that may come up if the kids have to go to a Catholic - ahem - I mean "public" school.

From the day that they are born we'll be putting a small amount of money into an account each week and if the time comes that blackmail is being used as an excuse for communion (yknow the dress/party/money etc etc) we'll have a trip to Disney land waiting as an alternate choice - as in "oh, well, you can have your communion - only if you attend mass every Sunday with yer Grandmother for the year beforehand - ooooor we can all go to Disney Land and I'll get you a princess whatever dress!!) I'm guessing the answer won't be a no to Disney land!:P

Hannah2011

Hannah2011 wrote: »

My post may seem like a strange one - firstly, I've never posted in Atheism, because it's not my place, as a devoted Christian,


Anyway, forgive my intrusion into this thread - but wanted to give you an alternative opinion.

everyone's welcome in the forum

(as long as they make sense anyway)

dogwoodflower

I am not a parent of a child who wasn't christened but I was the child in my school. Although I'm not a catholic,I am a born again Christian. To answer your question, I believe you did the right thing. Where are our motives, if we are just doing things for others or because everyone else is doing it? We then have to question is it really about our beliefs or the 'culture' of it all. From what I see, even though I'm not a Catholic, the reasons for christening are lost. The individual is the only one that can make a commitment to live for God, no one else can do it for them. So I don't think you have done anything wrong. I was the child who didn't get christened and I'm glad my parents stood up for what they believed rather than let me go through the flow of something we don't believe in.

gawker

You did the right thing, absolutely. Fair play to you. I think in 10 years time things will be very different and your child will not feel ostracised because of not taking part in the rituals. Also, about it being weird when communion etc. is going on, you could easily take your daughter on a great holiday for less money than many would spend on a communion/confirmation.

robindch

quietriot wrote: »

Run along Sean, I'm sure you've yet more areas of parenting to fail at, at hand.

That comment was uncalled for -- please check out the forum charter.

Hannah2011 wrote: »

Anyway, forgive my intrusion into this thread - but wanted to give you an alternative opinion.

Alternate opinions, especially thoughtful, well-turned ones, are always welcome in A+A.

RobAMerc

Firstly may I state I don't ever post here, nor read this forum.

OP I think you totally did the right thing - We had our son christened for all the wrong reasons: to keep grand parents happy and for fear of not even getting him into a school. For this I feel sick every time I hear an utterance from a Pope I almost always disagree with ( and think should be sanctioned for some of his views ), and to think this man pro ports to speak for me and my child as one of the billions of Catholics they claim globally sickens me.

If your child decides when they are ready to be Catholic, Muslim, Jew etc in their own time, so be it, you've given them that choice. Isn't that better than them propping up a regime's numbers simply by being born to someone who wants to fit in ?

stick to your guns, you are right, well done !

robindch

bexstar wrote: »

I would really like to hear from parents who didnt christen thier children, what is school like for them and how do you explain why there is no communion party and no church stuff?

Firstly, I think you did the right thing -- the church in this country is happy to use family pressure and fear of social stigma in order to guarantee bums on seats! It's great to see that people are taking a principled stand against it. The reaction of your in-laws is unfortunately fairly common and I've had it in my own extended family too. Though I've never had much luck in reminding them that the Irish Constitution, the Vatican's Canon Law and common decency, all guarantee freedom of conscience with respect to religion. Or even the simpler observation that christians believe that they should show love, and making unsubtle threats is hardly all that loving <sigh>

Anyhow, my kid is living here in south Dublin and started with an Educate Together school last September which she (and we) love -- I can't say enough good things about it. She wasn't christened, though I suspect she might have been done by a member of my extended family either remotely or when I had my back turned. So since she's going to an ET school, we don't really have the same issues you might have in a school controlled by some religious outfit. She's fine with no church stuff, since the school generally avoids it, and strangely, even though she's five years old, isn't all that good at distinguishing a church from a castle (which is interesting in itself). I don't yet know how our ET school deals with first-communions and all that stuff, but I don't imagine that very many kids in her class will be doing it.

The way religously-controlled schools react to kids whose parents (and by connection, the kids themselves) are not members of the same religion varies widely. Some seem to be genuinely ok with it and make a real effort to accommodate, while some don't. In fact, the entire Educate Together movement grew out of the frustration that a group of Dublin-based parents felt back in the 1970's, when their wishes for their children for a religion-free education were generally ignored by the headmaster of one specific local school.

The worst recent case I've heard happened last year in Leitrim, when a Dutch guy named Martijn Leenheer had secured an agreement with his local school not to do the religious stuff on his kid. Unfortunately, the school ignored it repeatedly, so he pulled his kid out of school and ended up going to the media. After a while, things got a bit hairy, so he and his family moved to the next town and got a place at the Educate Together there. There was a thread on it here in A+A last year which might be worth reading:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056161165

Anyhow, as above, congrats on doing the right thing and the best of luck!

Dades

I'm feeling a lot of support for your decision, OP! And not all from non-believers, neither.

Galvasean

I'm a bit late to the party but I'll ad a +1 to the 'you did the right thing' voices. People shouldn't have to pretend to be of a faith they aren't so that their kids may acquire some sort of advantage in the future.
Some day I may have kids of my own and hopefully the actions of people like the OP will mean I won't be expected to jump through Roman Catholic hoops for their sake.