Frame shop destroys 88 year old picture

duchalla

Ok guys, heres the deal. About 6 weeks ago, my father in law dropped a paper cutting into a well known photography/frame shop to get it framed, the paper cutting dates back to 1924. Instructions were given that the whole cutting was to framed. We contacted the shop 4 weeks ago to collect the framed cutting, shop said framed cutting was ready, paid €90 for the framing, it was all wrapped up in bubble wrap, brought it home, unwrapped it, only to find the paper cutting had been cut around the edges, the names underneath had been cut, (the most important part).
They basically destroyed an 88 year old picture which has a lot of historical significance. We got back on to them, asked what happened, guy says "oh we actually outsource the framing", we said thats not good enough, we need it fixed, what are ye goin to do about it? brought the framed cutting back in, fella says the sides of the cutting were thrown away, but he'll be able to salvage the top and the bottom of the cutting. At the time he said the the cutting would be ready tomorrow, rang him yesterday, said it'll be another week. I've a feeling he's buying time or fobbing us off. We're seriously p!ssed off with the service we're getting, what are our options?

Cabaal

op, what would you like as a resolution?

Remember though, odds are whatever they cut off is likely well gone given the time that has passed so I would imagine getting this back is very very unlikely.

duchalla

Ideally, we'd like the paper cutting back the way it was given to him, that's not going to happen though, we'd be happy to have it back with the top and bottom cuttings "reattached". We gave it to this particular shop as they are a reputable business, specific instruction were given, have we any recourse?

Zhane

has the cutting ever been valued?

cappichino

The chances of them keeping the cut off pieces are slim .Any chance it is from a newspaper that has an archive section and may be able to replace it for him? A terrible shame when it is obviously so precious .

RangeR

The company has a duty of care. Specfic instructions were given. They are liable.

duchalla

cutting has never been valued, but when my father in law went in with it first day, the guy was raving about how rare it was and it's the first time he's ever seen an original cutting, (we had 2 cuttings to frame, the 1924 one and another from
1955, he didnt pay much heed to the 1955 one, just said he'd seen one of them before).
When we got the framed cuttings back, the instructions we gave were taped to the back of the frame! What can we do if we're not happy the final outcome? Tisnt sumting you can put a price on.

uck51js9zml2yt

You could contact the National Consumer Council for some advice.

I found them great in dealing with Argos when they were refusing to honour an advertised deal. I got my money back in the end

Guy:Incognito

Jayde Prickly Dress wrote: »

You could contact the National Consumer Council for some advice.

I found them great in dealing with Argos when they were refusing to honour an advertised deal. I got my money back in the end

Situation is different though. They cant just give him the cutting back. It's gone. Money can be refunded or whatever, but the cutting isnt comign back and theres no real way to fix that.

dudara

duchalla wrote: »

What can we do if we're not happy the final outcome? Tisnt sumting you can put a price on.

You can request your money back, but trying to put a price on this cutting will be nigh on impossible. I think all you can do is accept the loss, even though it's tough. Realistically, what more can be done?

duchalla

dudara wrote: »

You can request your money back, but trying to put a price on this cutting will be nigh on impossible. I think all you can do is accept the loss, even though it's tough. Realistically, what more can be done?

I dont know what more can be done. I spose thats why I'm asking here. I do know that its pure galling the something that has been in my wife's family since her Grandfathers time has been destroyed by the incompetence of some eegjit who couldnt follow written instructions.

dudara, sorry if this comes across like I'm being short with you, I amn't. I'm just seriously p!ssed off with the whole thing...

jor el

RangeR wrote: »

The company has a duty of care. Specfic instructions were given. They are liable.

Liable for what though? At most, he could get the cost of the framing refunded. The picture has been altered, and no amount of liability will be able to undo that. An old newspaper cutting will likely have no monitory value anyway, and the sentimental value to the family is not something that consumer law covers.

If some sort of monitory reimbursement or compensation is to be sought, then you're going to need to get a solicitor. Other than that, I don't see that there's anything else that can be done.

ejmaztec

I think it's worth a trip to the Small Claims Court.

Ken.

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think it's worth a trip to the Small Claims Court.

For what?. Unless their is an exact match to the destroyed picture that's been evaluated by an expert the piece of paper is worthless in the eyes of the law. A refund on the cost of the frame is about all the op will get.

RoboRat

For what?. Unless their is an exact match to the destroyed picture that's been evaluated by an expert the piece of paper is worthless in the eyes of the law. A refund on the cost of the frame is about all the op will get.

SCC is not the answer to everything although on this forum it seems to be. In this case, if the OP wanted to, they could go there if they feel compensation up to 2k is sufficient. I am in no way saying that 2K is what you will get, but its the max that the SCC can award.

From citizens information:

Consumer claims such as for faulty goods or bad workmanship

This is a clear example of bad workmanship.

the_syco

duchalla wrote: »

the paper cutting dates back to 1924

Where they from a newspaper, a photograph, or what? If it's a newspaper, do you remember what newspaper, and what date?

ejmaztec

lucyfur09 wrote: »

For what?. Unless their is an exact match to the destroyed picture that's been evaluated by an expert the piece of paper is worthless in the eyes of the law. A refund on the cost of the frame is about all the op will get.

Whatever the end result is, it's cheaper than hiring a solicitor. As far as I'm aware, the SCC doesn't just limit compensation to the actual cost of the goods, and it would be up to them to decide on a figure.

RangeR

jor el wrote: »

Liable for what though? At most, he could get the cost of the framing refunded. The picture has been altered, and no amount of liability will be able to undo that. An old newspaper cutting will likely have no monitory value anyway, and the sentimental value to the family is not something that consumer law covers.

If some sort of monitory reimbursement or compensation is to be sought, then you're going to need to get a solicitor. Other than that, I don't see that there's anything else that can be done.

There was a case, many years ago, [here or UK, I'm not sure] where a roll of photo film, full of family treasured moments, was handed into a reputable store to get developed. Long story short, the company fooked up, film was destroyed, photos lost. Customer brought them to court, company offered to refund cost of film. Judge agreed with customer that the photos were priceless. Awarded huge damages against "reputable company".

Sorry, I'm being vague here as I don't have all the details.

duchalla

the_syco wrote: »

Where they from a newspaper, a photograph, or what? If it's a newspaper, do you remember what newspaper, and what date?

It's a picture/papercutting from a newspaper, I'd have a fair idea of the date when the picture was taken, not sure what newpaper though, the picture was frayed around the edges, (which, in my opinion, added to the authenticity of it), so it was missing the name of the publication which, I presume, would have been printed in the very top corner of the page.
I think I know what you're getting at, someone suggested it earlier, get an archive copy of the original,"age" the missing cuttings and it add to the original, maybe this is what the guy in the shop is attempting to do, we'll have to see what he comes back with.
Thanks for all the replies, by the way, plenty of food for thought....

Africa

Id talk to a solicitor about this, by the sounds of it its loss of value is significant, even if it wasnt valued. It could be valued fairly easily on an estimate.

Cabaal

ejmaztec wrote: »

Whatever the end result is, it's cheaper than hiring a solicitor. As far as I'm aware, the SCC doesn't just limit compensation to the actual cost of the goods, and it would be up to them to decide on a figure.

True but how can they decided a compensation figure on a item that only as sentimental value, has never been valued and as such as no other worth other then a percentage of the cost of the newspaper it was once taken from.

The case would likely not succeed in court for this reason, I could claim 2k compensation for an old photo in my own home but without it actually being professionally value this claim is worthless.

ejmaztec

Cabaal wrote: »

True but how can they decided a compensation figure on a item that only as sentimental value, has never been valued and as such as no other worth other then a percentage of the cost of the newspaper it was once taken from.

The case would likely not succeed in court for this reason, I could claim 2k compensation for an old photo in my own home but without it actually being professionally value this claim is worthless.

I'd imagine that they would pluck a reasonable figure out of the air, like they do with any other consumer-related screw-up. They've obviously got guidelines to work from, whatever kind of case is thrown in front of them.

Africa

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'd imagine that they would pluck a reasonable figure out of the air, like they do with any other consumer-related screw-up. They've obviously got guidelines to work from, whatever kind of case is thrown in front of them.

I would go to few other experts and get if you had an original, with the above as you said and ask them an approx price. Would at least help. Then the value of it now. And talk to a solicitor, if it is indeed worth big money.

Fey!

If you need to get some sort of monetary value, try Kennys in Galway. www.kennys.ie

They deal in old books and documents, and would have the necessary knowledge and experience to put a value on the piece.

The monetary value may be quite low, but an insurance assessor would probably have tables to give him values in situations like this.

dub45

Surely any wise and reputable framing company would be extremely cautious about cutting anything left with them by a customer without having written instructions and permission to do so?

The op claims

Instructions were given that the whole cutting was to framed.

Surely in that case the Company was negligent? Have companies who effectively trade on their reputation not got responsibilities?

Does the company have any "Terms and Conditions"

The gist of the advice here seems to be that the company can do as they wish?

I certainly would be thinking in terms of visiting a solicitor for some advice.

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

... The gist of the advice here seems to be that the company can do as they wish? ...

I don't think that is the case. The concern, which the OP seems to share, is not if the company has a responsibility, but how it should deal with its failure.

The perfect redress would be if the company could source and purchase another copy of the damaged cutting, but that's almost certainly not a realistic prospect. The obvious second option is to pay an amount of compensation, but how do you value a cutting from a newspaper almost 90 years old? It probably has no great commercial value, and it's difficult to put a cash value on sentiment.

dub45

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think that is the case. The concern, which the OP seems to share, is not if the company has a responsibility, but how it should deal with its failure.

The perfect redress would be if the company could source and purchase another copy of the damaged cutting, but that's almost certainly not a realistic prospect. The obvious second option is to pay an amount of compensation, but how do you value a cutting from a newspaper almost 90 years old? It probably has no great commercial value, and it's difficult to put a cash value on sentiment.

They could make an offer at least!:) I think the op's concern is very valid.

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

They could make an offer at least!:) I think the op's concern is very valid.

Agreed.

How much should they offer?

dub45

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Agreed.

How much should they offer?

That's not for anyone here to decide. The only one who could decide what would be acceptable in the absence of any other satisfactory remedy is the op and his/her family.

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

That's not for anyone here to decide. The only one who could decide what would be acceptable in the absence of any other satisfactory remedy is the op and his/her family.

And there is the difficulty that people have been struggling with in this thread - and, I think, the thing that is causing difficulty to the OP. Some people seem to believe that a court would put a small financial value on sentimental attachment to a piece of paper.

dub45

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And there is the difficulty that people have been struggling with in this thread - and, I think, the thing that is causing difficulty to the OP. Some people seem to believe that a court would put a small financial value on sentimental attachment to a piece of paper.

No matter what anyone believes here only the op can decide in the absence of the document being replaced what is a satisfactory offer for them.

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

No matter what anyone believes here only the op can decide in the absence of the document being replaced what is a satisfactory offer for them.

Suppose OP decides that the sentimental value is €5k, or €50k? I would imagine that the company would challenge any valuation that they thought excessive, and the matter could end up in court.

It would be helpful to OP to have some idea of what value the court might put on the damage, because that would provide a mental framework in which to discuss matters with the company.

My own (non-expert) expectation would be that the courts would arrive at a smallish figure, possibly under €100.

dub45

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Suppose OP decides that the sentimental value is €5k, or €50k? I would imagine that the company would challenge any valuation that they thought excessive, and the matter could end up in court.

It would be helpful to OP to have some idea of what value the court might put on the damage, because that would provide a mental framework in which to discuss matters with the company.

My own (non-expert) expectation would be that the courts would arrive at a smallish figure, possibly under €100.

But your own (or anyone else' non expert ) expectation is of no relevance.

If the op gets an offer from the business concerned it is then up to him/her to decide whether to accept it or not. If they decide to pursue it further then they will have to get legal advice anyway.

There may be other factors which might come into play - the business may have their own Terms and Conditions to cover such situations or they might make a generous offer to avoid a possible damaging court case. Guessing amounts is hardly going to help the op.

P. Breathnach

dub45 wrote: »

But your own (or anyone else' non expert ) expectation is of no relevance.

That too is for OP to decide. I think he or she is hoping to get some idea of the range.

If the op gets an offer from the business concerned it is then up to him/her to decide whether to accept it or not.

On what basis? OP makes up a number and hopes that it is not in the wrong ballpark?

If they decide to pursue it further then they will have to get legal advice anyway.

Now here I have a little (and I do mean little) experience. Solicitors can have widely divergent opinions on compensation for inconvenience, loss of something of sentimental value, hurt feelings, disappointment, or other similar matters. More important, so can judges. Litigation in an area like this is a lottery. There is one thing in which solicitors can be particularly useful: they tend to know the form of judges, and can probably tell you whether a particular judge would see merit in a claim, or be likely to send the claimant away with little or no compensation. But even before one goes to a solicitor, it is helpful to have some idea of one's own about what sum of money might make things good.

There may be other factors which might come into play - the business may have their own Terms and Conditions to cover such situations or they might make a generous offer to avoid a possible damaging court case.

They might. Litigation is a high-stakes game which most people should want to avoid if they can.

Guessing amounts is hardly going to help the op.

It might. If somebody forms the view that they have suffered a hurt worth €10k, and a there is some consensus among others in discussing it that the hurt should be worth €1k (or €50k - it could be either direction) then the victim might form a clearer view of what compensation should be sought. [This view might be modified if proceedings are initiated and the judge most likely to hear the case is identified.]

Africa

I hope OP returns. Wouldnt mind knowing how this turned out.

duchalla

Mother in law rang the shop on monday to inquire about how things were going, spoke to the owner, she told him we were very disappointed with the level of service we've received, the owner was quite abrupt and short on the phone, you'd think he'd be kissing her ass after all the craic that has gone on! Anyway, he told her the picture would be ready on friday, I'll post again once we know how its all turned out.