Poll: Ireland v Italy, 25/2/2012, 1.30 pm, live on RTE2/BBC1

totallegend

In the length of time I've been posting on boards, I don't think that there has ever been an international which has generated less debate around selection as this game. Which is fair enough, the odds on DK making any changes to the 22 are pretty remote, so the discussion has to turn away from selection and towards tactics. How should we approach this game?

My own opinion is that we have to go out and win this game. Sounds obvious, but far too often this Irish team is sent out with the objective of not losing, which is an entirely different thing. The performance against Wales lacked the aggression and focus that a team should have if they're determined to win.

We need to lay down a marker on Saturday against inferior opposition who will be dogged but limited in the damage they can inflict on us. Since the Italians possess nothing like the counter-attacking options that Wales or France have, we need to really open up the playbook and look to put pace on the ball, get people running from deep and at angles and holes will appear.
Equally important is for supporting runners to be on the ball-carriers shoulder ready to take the pass when a tackle is made; for me, this is one of the reasons why O'Brien is not as effective for Ireland as he is for Leinster. We also need to look at who we're lining up as ball-carriers; too often we see POC taking it on but this has never been his strong point. We have three good ball-carriers in the back row, POC should be focussed on supporting them, clearing out the tackle area and generating quick recycle ball. Cian Healy's ball-carrying needs to be exploited more often too.

DK ships a lot of criticism for his use of the bench, or more accurately his lack thereof. There has been a lot of talk around the balance of the backrow and whether O'Mahony could balance it out. For me, POM looks more like (yet another) six, but he's young enough to adapt so I'd like to see him get at least 20-30 minutes. Likewise McFadden needs to get gametime at 12 to explore options, of which he seems to be the best alternative at the moment. I have no doubt we'll see ROG and Reddan, probably simultaneously, but we're not going to learn anything from that. Likewise, Ryan will get 30 minutes and will play well but what does that tell us?

I expect us to win; but the manner of the victory and the style of play we employ is a whole lot more important.



IRELAND
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:
16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

ITALY
15. Masi
14. Venditti
13. Benvenuti
12 Sgarbi
11. McLean
10. Botes
9. Gori
8. Parisse (C)
7. Barbieri
6. Zanni
5. Bortolami
4. Geldenhuys
3. Cittadini
2. Ghiraldini
1. Rizzo

16. D'Apice
17. Staibano
18. Pavanello
19. Favaro
20. Semenzato
21. Burton
22. Canale

Almaviva

FORZA ITALIA !

Would love to see an Italian victory. They have been close but unlucky in a couple of games with us (and others) since they joined the 6 nations. A win would not be overdue.

It would be good and deserved for Italy, good for Italy's rugby development and international rugby in general, and anything that hastens the departure of Kidney has to be good for Irish rugby, giving it a chance to sort itself out sooner rather than later. So all in all, a win-win situation.

So rugby fans - get behind the Azzurri.

FORZA ITALIA !

Quint2010

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

This is a hard one to call. Ireland should win but we never seem to play and beat Italy well at home or at least we haven't for a few years. This is a combination of Ireland under estimating the Italians but always doing just enough and the Italians raising their game when they come here. Castrogiovanni is a huge loss for them but I expect this pattern of performances and results to continue and Ireland to win by less than 10 points and playing averagely.

Otacon

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

Ah... no.

I will be cheering Ireland on as usual, no matter what. This opinion that Ireland losing is a good thing as DK would then have to resign is 1. deluded, 2. disappointing and 3. similar to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

GWAN Ireland

Cormic

I believe that Ireland will need to compete better at the breakdown then they did against Wales. Too often we saw players standing back. Italy have a big strong pack and we will have to keep them in control.

I suspect that Heaslip, SOB and Ferris will cause problems if they are allowed to play like they do for their provinces. Let just hope that they are permitted to do so.

I predict that it will be a tough game and we will win but by a small margin.

Thanos

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

Same team as before, no surprises there.

Almaviva

Otacon wrote: »

Ah... no.

I will be cheering Ireland on as usual, no matter what. This opinion that Ireland losing is a good thing as DK would then have to resign is 1. deluded, (NOT IF HE LOSES ENOUGH GAMES 2. disappointing and SAD SITUATION ALRIGHT BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE PAIN AND LANCE THE BOIL 3. similar to cutting off your nose to spite your face. NO. SIMILAR TO CUTTING A MOLE OFF YOUR NOSE SO THAT YOU CAN LOOK GOOD AGAIN

GWAN Ireland

Much better to lose to Italy and Scotland if that achieved the end of not having to face into another year, and six nations 2013 with no hope. We have been making a mess of a decent squad of players for over two years now. Losing a few games is a price I am willing to pay. What do you want - Kidney limping on with 3 win 6 nations and taking us to another world cup? We have gone backwards since he took over (grandslam notwithstanding).

Cormic

Otacon wrote: »

similar to cutting off your nose to spite your face

Agreed! While I may not be the biggest fan of the way Ireland are playing at the moment. It is still my national team and I will always cheer them on, no matter what.

bleg

After another fine performance at the weekend Donncha Ryan must be so pissed off he's not on the team.

justsomebloke

First post edited to include team selection

thomond2006

I'm looking forward to England v Wales more than this I'm sorry to say, Ireland to win by 10-15 points having been neck and neck for 50-60 minutes. It will be a scrappy game as usual where Italian indiscipline will be the key factor once they inevitably lose the rag. It will be a game Ireland (and its supporters!) will just want to get out of the way. Parisse will be the best player on the pitch again etc.

No matter how poor Ireland play, Italy don't have enough to beat us. Castro being out is a massive loss although he is quickly becoming 'past it' himself.

I can't wait for England v Wales already, this game will likely bore me.

tolosenc

Draw

Otacon wrote: »

similar to cutting off your nose to spite your face

Is it, though? Short term pain for a long term benefit...

Draw

I struggle to see the point of DOC in the second row.

Yes he does "a job", yes he plays well alongside POC, but there are BETTER options starting in 3 of the 4 Irish provinces. Funnily enough, one of them even ahead of DOC at Munster.

I'm sighing with exasperation at how bad this game is going to be as a spectacle. The tactical nuances of 22 man rugby are way too advanced for our current crop of strategists. There's 2.2 times too many players to plan for compared to the way "they've always done it".

Haven't missed an Irish rugby game in about 10 years, but couldn't be more disinterested in this one if I tried.

22-15 to Ireland at Full Time.

Cormic

Deleted User wrote: »

I struggle to see the point of DOC in the second row

Agreed! While he was a great servant to the Ireland team for years he needs to step aside. Ryan deserves his place now and should start.

Quint2010

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm looking forward to England v Wales more than this I'm sorry to say, Ireland to win by 10-15 points having been neck and neck for 50-60 minutes. It will be a scrappy game as usual where Italian indiscipline will be the key factor once they inevitably lose the rag. It will be a game Ireland (and its supporters!) will just want to get out of the way. Parisse will be the best player on the pitch again etc.

No matter how poor Ireland play, Italy don't have enough to beat us. Castro being out is a massive loss although he is quickly becoming 'past it' himself.

I can't wait for England v Wales already, this game will likely bore me.

Really? He has only just turned 30. He is in the top four or five tight heads in the world.

.ak

Surely now is the time to experiment? I think it's absolute madness his picked so many 1st starters. They'll be knackered by next week for the France game.

SuprSi

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

The exact same team!? FFS, I give up, I really do. There are two games in the 6 Nations this year where the stalwarts should be given a rest - Italy and Scotland, both at home. We are almost already out of the running having lost at home to Wales, so why not start with the future crop of players?

I'm with emmet on this - unless there are younger players playing I'm not really bothered with the game itself. Do I want a victory this weekend? Of course I do. Will a win against Italy with the exact same team that Kidney has named (and will most likely continue to name) in the past few matches mean much? No. Would I be more excited about watching the game if a few of the bench players were in the starting 15? Absolutely! Even if this team hammers the Italian's, it won't mean much.

It's the typical short-sighted nature of either Kidney's or the IRFU's selection policy of "whatever you do, don't lose the match" that will cause problems for the team in the next few years. You can be absolutely sure that the team sheet for the Italy match will be copied for the France game (barring injuries) and that frustrates the hell out of me.

I really am fed up with the whole thing to be honest.

Otacon

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

tolosenc wrote: »

Is it, though? Short term pain for a long term benefit...

Yes.

1. Ireland lose game [I don't like that]

2. Even after losing, that is no guarantee that DK resigns/is fired [Again I don't like it]

thomond2006

SuprSi wrote: »

The exact same team!? FFS, I give up, I really do. There are two games in the 6 Nations this year where the stalwarts should be given a rest - Italy and Scotland, both at home. We are almost already out of the running having lost at home to Wales, so why not start with the future crop of players?

The stalwarts get a rest over the Christmas period so they are very fresh coming into the Six Nations (although perhaps that's not the point you're making). Kidney was always going to pick the same 22, France have done the exact same. A bit harsh to drop someone from a lineup that didn't get to play!

Realistically, this side is only 3 or 4 players away from what most would consider their favoured selection. Front row is not an issue, nor backrow, outhalf or backthree for me. The only arguable calls are DOC and Earls, plus maybe Murray.

They'll be knackered by next week for the France game.

They won't, as I said they were rested for 2 weeks during Christmas/New Years and haven't played since the Wales game 3 weeks ago! How will they be knackered next week?

They'll certainly be knackered if they start for the rest of the tournament.

Quint2010

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

Some kudos to Kidney for at least resisting the temptation to bring back O'Gara. ROG must have really pulled at Deccie's heartstrings with that performance last saturday. My worry is that the team will be rusty not having played for 3 weeks (Earls for 4 weeks)

totallegend

Draw

.ak wrote: »

Surely now is the time to experiment? I think it's absolute madness his picked so many 1st starters. They'll be knackered by next week for the France game.

The only surprising thing about the selection is that anyone is surprised by it.
In terms of resting guys, playing two games in a row is not excessive so I'm not worried about fatigue for the France game, it's when the Scotland game rolls around and we've had six days rest compared to 13 days for the Scots that we'll see problems, or worse still if he persists with the same 15 and then they're hanging together with sellotape by the time we go to Twickenham.

So yes, this was the game to introduce Ryan, McFadden, maybe give Tom Court a bit of game time. I would prefer to see POM off the bench rather than starting but he needs significant game time, as does Cronin.

leftleg

thomond2006 wrote: »

this side is only 3 or 4 players away from what most would consider their favoured selection.

ON a team with 15 players thats nearly a third of the team though;

All said i'm sure this team will save Deccie's skin and wipe the park clean with the Italian's who started off against France really well but were beyond awful against an awful England side. Keith Earls will come out of this as the best centre in years and DOC will have a performance that rolls back the years and puts even more pine splinters in Donncha Ryan's back side for the rest of the six nations. Deccie keeps his job; we get third place and the teams stays the exact same.

mikedragon32

thomond2006 wrote: »

Kidney was always going to pick the same 22, France have done the exact same. A bit harsh to drop someone from a lineup that didn't get to play!

I don't think it's a matter of dropping someone that didn't get to play in Paris, it's about picking a team to maximise the opportunities to take a look at the players coming through and see how they perform in a full test that means something.

In picking a team that you expected to compete with France, you learn nothing from the selection if they hammer the Azzuri, yet risk everything if they win poorly or possibly lose.

its_phil

Almaviva wrote: »

So rugby fans - get behind the Azzurri.

Or Ireland fans get behind Ireland?

What an utterly stupid thing to ask Irish fans to do..

leftleg

mikedragon32 wrote: »

In picking a team that you expected to compete with France, you learn nothing from the selection if they hammer the Azzuri, yet risk everything if they win poorly or possibly lose.

My sentiments exactly; ill take my brain out put on the seat beside me and watch the game as i will learn 0 from it in terms of squad building; great

Quint2010

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

.ak wrote: »

Surely now is the time to experiment? I think it's absolute madness his picked so many 1st starters. They'll be knackered by next week for the France game.

Failure to develop any squad depth is ultimately what cost EOS his job.

Quint2010

Draw

Quint2010 wrote: »

Failure to develop any squad depth is ultimately what cost EOS his job.

and will contribute to Declan's demise too.

Along with his terrible win rate, and his utter failure to play any form of modern rugby.

Fishooks12

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

I think we'll beat Italy handy

They had a huge amount put into the opener and a French team in 3rd gear still put them to the sword.

The injury to Castro should mean we can look to have a crack at their scrum

They have no half backs

They only really troubled an English team that is poor to say the least, at home and in terrible condition's

Ireland by 20 and Sexton to have a stormer

CIARAN_BOYLE

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The injury to Castro should mean we can look to have a crack at their scrum

Remember in the RWC when we gave up 2 scrum penalties in the first 20 minutes without winning any before Castro came off. After that we got five scrum penalties and only gave up two.

It was a massive turning point.

Tox56

From a developement perspective, having the France game delayed was a terrible thing.

If we had lost, the championship would be over and there would be justifiable calls for experimentation against Italy, and it is more than likely some players would be brought in (you would hope).

If we had won, the championship was definitely on, and Italy became an important game to win. It is more than likely the team wouldn't need to be changed, as they would have had to play out of their skin to beat France in the first place.

Now, the championship is still technically a possibility, the star players need gametime, and you can't really blame Kidney for picking his(!!) best team, even if I disagree with some selections.

We will not experiment in this game, lose to France anyway, and we are out of the tournament.

We will want/"need" to beat England, DK will want to keep his job, and the team will be pretty much the same team we started out with against Wales, the conservative selection beats a poor England team, and DK keeps his job.

And we are back where we started.

[Jackass]

totallegend wrote: »

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:
16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

totallegend

Draw

Tox56 wrote: »

From a developement perspective, having the France game delayed was a terrible thing.

If we had lost, the championship would be over and there would be justifiable calls for experimentation against Italy, and it is more than likely some players would be brought in (you would hope).

[\QUOTE]

You would hope, but you'd be sorely disappointed.

Had we lost against France, there's always the likelihood that DK would come out and say something like "well the lads will be itching to put in a big performance and put the loss behind them" and then name the same 15 for the Italy game.

.ak

mikedragon32 wrote: »

In picking a team that you expected to compete with France, you learn nothing from the selection if they hammer the Azzuri, yet risk everything if they win poorly or possibly lose.

Agreed, and also risk injury.

cgpg5

Draw

Its all about England v wales on Saturday I feel, the likely triple crown decider, this will be a borefest, Italy are due a victory against us however its unlikely to come Saturday. Ireland to win unconvincingly in a dire encounter. Roll on Engalnd v Wales

leftleg

cgpg5 wrote: »

Its all about England v wales on Saturday I feel

I agree i just thought id never ever look forward to watching England play :mad:

andrewdcs

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

leftleg wrote: »

I agree i just thought id never ever look forward to watching England play :mad:

So look forward to dynamic young welsh tyros instead!

leftleg

Wheres Neil Francis in the poll mods?? (hint to my vote)

CiaranMT

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

Hopefully DOC is starting this game with a view to keeping Dryan fresh for the French. Dryan would make much more of an impact next week I feel.

Rattlehead_ie

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

leftleg wrote: »

I agree i just thought id never ever look forward to watching England play :mad:

worse. I might even like England to win this
It would open up the championship again and leave France Vs Ireland being a big(ger) game

cgpg5

Draw

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

worse. I might even like England to win this
It would open up the championship again and leave France Vs Ireland being a big(ger) game

It would open up the championship in that it would be then between England, Wales and France rather than just Wales and France and frankly I don't want England winning two in a row so I'll be shouting for Wales.

Otacon

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

cgpg5 wrote: »

It would open up the championship in that it would be then between England, Wales and France rather than just Wales and France and frankly I don't want England winning two in a row so I'll be shouting for Wales.

Too late.

cgpg5

Draw

Otacon wrote: »

Too late.

*Two championships in a row I mean

Rattlehead_ie

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

cgpg5 wrote: »

It would open up the championship in that it would be then between England, Wales and France rather than just Wales and France and frankly I don't want England winning two in a row so I'll be shouting for Wales.

Not really. It would open up the Championship to yes Wales, England, France, but if we were to beat France. Come the last day.....

England Vs Ireland
Wales Vs France

With all 4 teams in it to win the championship (ok not a grand slam) it would make a great weekend

PhatPiggins

Quint2010 wrote: »

Really? He has only just turned 30. He is in the top four or five tight heads in the world.

Defo agree. He fairly roasted Debaty in the first half against France and had Cobisiero bet up a stick until he got injured.

I think his consistency levels have dropped at club level so I can see where the idea of him being past his prime is coming from but for Italy he is and always has been, awesome.

CiaranMT

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

He's always willing to carry too. Probably too much, to an extent.

leftleg

CiaranMT wrote: »

He's always willing to carry too. Probably too much, to an extent.

Think he got injured while carrying as well

maddragon

Paddy Power has the Italians at 7/1. A fair punt in a two horse race.

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

They'll certainly be knackered if they start for the rest of the tournament.

Well, when won't they? The only possibility left for a change is the Scotland game given the way Kidney works (apart from potentially at outhalf, because changing his 10 appears to be how he gets his kicks). Considering we'll almost definitely lose against France, it depends on whether he uses the Scotland game then as an opportunity to give fellas a chance or as an opportunity for the current team to "put it right". I would be wary he'd pick the latter.

Anyway, this team is as expected and should be enough to put Italy away at home. I don't expect them to play well.

wp_rathead

Draw

totallegend wrote: »

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Out Of Position
Past Their Expiry Date
Better Option on Bench

MrDerp

Ireland to win by 1-7 points

I have to say I agree with Deccie on this one. :eek:

No, I don't like that team (whatever about DOC, the back line is all over the shop) but:
- Deccie is not going to change the game plan for France at this point
- Deccie is not going to change the team against France (unless forced to)
- Even if the team is forced to change, training is certain to only include slotting replacements into the same game plan (god forbid we'd build a game plan around the players)

So if you consider all the questionable calls (team, game plan) as certain for the France game, Deccie is right to let that team out to play.

Since the schedule has been mucked up, the Scotland game becomes the game to let players in - particularly as we're gonna be sore from the French 6 days beforehand. There'll be a few tweaks for Scotland, and then it's full steam ahead with team A and plan A against England, regardless of how we've done.

Anyway, cr@pfest fixture list this Sunday. Looking forward to the silence at 1.30 at the Aviva :rolleyes: Seriously! 1.30 kick off? Can't even be good for tv!

bleg

It will be another dog fight with a load of Italian indiscretion, they'll get a YC in the first half I'd bet. They may be in touch at half time (3-5 points down) but Ireland should pull away in the second half handily enough, similar to the WC match.