Passive Design and Build

just do it

Certified wrote: »

the knowledge and products that exist today just were not around 5 years ago or maybe even 2 years ago.

A bit of reading on here will show there is plenty knowledge of passive design and build in this forum. I'm interested to hear your opinion as to what particular knowledge and products exist now that weren't there previously?

P.S. Mind not to mention specific product names or companies - you've already gotten the snip once!;):D

Certified

There is from what I can see a lot of experienced individuals posting on here information and answers including moderators. Im grateful for it anyway as I have obtained information directly and indirectly that has helped me significantly.

Maybe what I have to say is of no use whatsoever to these contibutors who have possibly discussed these items to exhaustive lengths already but I do know that this forum ranks high in a well known search engine on every self builders computer and every now and then perhaps the basics should be mentioned by someone even if by a new poster (risking the wrath of the establishment ).
If the little information that I posted was deemed to be 'Preaching' then so be it. Dissapointing.

Just do it,

There has been a sea change in the methods and materials being used today compared to 5 years ago.
The Passive House concept has been around for 20 years in Germany but not in Ireland. The guys who made the decision to build to the standard in Ireland before quite recently really did have a difficult time sourcing products and skilled labour etc.
In brief just some of the ways in which it is easier today compared to 5 - 2 years ago.

Training and experience of designers - there are now certified designers, some with a good deal of experience in probably every county. This is a great help to the self builder. Was not the case before.

Irish solutions and methods to problem areas are emerging, which make building easier here as opposed to trying to copy central European methods.
Finding an Engineer to sign off on for instance a 250mm-300mm wide cavity was troublesome to find. Its not today, which means we can build a PH structure a good deal cheaper. Before we had to use external insualtion or a timber frame which are good but more expensive and the choice of suppliers was small.
We now have Irish supplers of insulated foundation systems that are better value than the imported systems. Hybrid systems now being used which are more flexible to normal selfbuilding conditions.

Insulation - There was a trend during the boom to specify a particular well known insualtion which in most cases should not have been required. More financially prudent insulation products are out there and these alternative companies are providing a great service. Insulation can be cut to specific requirements making installation easier to manage. In many casses it is possible to achieve a PH insulated foundation sytem for less than it would cost to build using the standard method of strip foundations, well known insulation and floating concrete floor. It can even be quicker if that is important for the build.
Just a year ago, I paid €23 for a roll of 200mm, ehhh, 'wool type' insualtion. Today the self builder can get a similar product for €13. The reason is becuase of new suppliers getting invloved and importing alternative brands.

There are now a huge amount of insulation companies providing pumped cavity insulation, cellulose and external insualtion. Prices are competitive and the self builder has a choice.
Airthight membranes - the choice of products available appears to be growing by the month. There are some very handy tapes and primers around today that make things easier, achievable and cheaper. I remenber when there were no stockists here and thats not long ago. A quick internet search will now find the self builder at least 10 different choices.

MVHR - 5 years ago the choice was very limited in this area, not so any more. A system that cost €9,000 5 years ago can now be replaced with a better system today for €4,500. The amount of producers has increased competition and hence the efficiencies of these machines are now remarkable.
The self builder can now do a quick search and find supply and fit companies and also a number of top quality wholesale distributors that are probably in their local area. It is possible to get the system fully designed and specified by a local PH designer and install the system youself. Its not rocket science once you have clear instructions.

Back to design - Specifing roof trusses can save a small fortune if you shop around. These companies really can be a PH designers/builders best friend. You can introduce service zones, access passages, deeper profiles to allow for cheaper insulation etc etc. Truss companies have been around for a good bit but thay were not on many occasions in the past better value, in my experience.
The easy solutions they can provide to building today mean they should not be overlooked.

Windows - Anyone who built a PH 5 years ago will know how bloody hard a decision it was to sign that cheque for the triple glazed, insulated frame windows. The proper PH certified doors were even worse! Today they still cost more (they should as they are much better) but they are nowhere near as expensive as back then. A bit of choice around today also with locally manufactured units available at decent prices. Its still a difficult area tho as if your on a really tight budget (most of us are) going with the PVC-U option can be your only choice.
Thankfully it looks like this may not be the situation for much longer. Designers and builders will soon be able to select Irish hardwood PH windows and doors at an affordable price. This for me as a designer is very significant. I do not want to say much more on this as I do not want to be expelled.

I got the snip earlier ya know

I could go on and on about how things have changed for the better but Id say you know this already and I dont want to be labelled a preacher again.
I could give specific products and suppliers that I would recommend but then I would definitely get the chop.
Im getting long in the tooth in life at this stage but only a newbie on here and every thing I have written can be read with suspicion of an alterior motive and of course your free to totally disagree with me. Im just giving my own experience. Thats the beauty of the internet, freedom of information and all that we should try to protect it from Big Brothers and Uncles.

What I said in my earlier post in my oppinion is more important on the wallet than the above said items.

Kind regards,

Certified

Poor Uncle Tom

I have moved these posts to this separate thread as they were dragging the last one off-topic. Please feel free to discuss Passive Design and Build here all you like.

It's also best that you think of moderators as referees rather than big brothers or uncles as you put it. Posting on the internet means anyone with access could be considered as being big brother.

just do it

Certified

Thanks for the detailed reply and I look forward to seeing your views over the months/ years to come! A lot of your points are very valid. Having being completely naive to building 4 years ago when I stumbled across this forum I concur that at least there are passive standard knowledge and options out there for the self-builder. Due to the crash my intended start date of 2009 is now going to be 2012. How long it will take me I don't know! In the meantime my architect has completed the PH design course and has redesigned my house. I lodged the redesign on Friday so all going well we can turn the sod in a few months.

In fairness to the mods there have been plenty first time posters since the celtic tiger was culled coming on to tout their new enterprises. I can't blame the quys for looking at ways to drum up a bit of business, but thanks to the mods this forum is kept to good informative threads/ debates.

Certified wrote: »

The guys who made the decision to build to the standard in Ireland before quite recently really did have a difficult time sourcing products and skilled labour etc.

These guys really have to be commended. Thanks to their efforts the rest of us can now look at building to this standard without having to such great efforts.

Certified wrote: »

Finding an Engineer to sign off on for instance a 250mm-300mm wide cavity was troublesome to find. Its not today, which means we can build a PH structure a good deal cheaper. Before we had to use external insualtion or a timber frame which are good but more expensive and the choice of suppliers was small.

And the experience of self-builders on here indicates this is the most economical way to go. I take it your a fan of this wall build-up? Good to hear as this is what I'm looking at. Width will be dependant on phpp.

Certified wrote: »

We now have Irish supplers of insulated foundation systems that are better value than the imported systems. Hybrid systems now being used which are more flexible to normal selfbuilding conditions.

Insulation - There was a trend during the boom to specify a particular well known insualtion which in most cases should not have been required. More financially prudent insulation products are out there and these alternative companies are providing a great service. Insulation can be cut to specific requirements making installation easier to manage. In many casses it is possible to achieve a PH insulated foundation sytem for less than it would cost to build using the standard method of strip foundations, well known insulation and floating concrete floor. It can even be quicker if that is important for the build.

This I'm interested in. Any chance of a PM of who you mean?

Certified wrote: »

There are now a huge amount of insulation companies providing pumped cavity insulation, cellulose and external insualtion. Prices are competitive and the self builder has a choice.

But as with everything, buyer beware! Whilst I'm brave enough to go with full fill wide cavity, I can't make the leap to EWI despite it being a better system in theory. I'm going to stipulate thermal imaging to be done when the cavity is pumped - a relatively cheap way of insuring 1. the installer knowing this will put the effort in day 1, and 2. any gaps can be filled in prior to plastering.

Certified wrote: »

Airthight membranes - the choice of products available appears to be growing by the month. There are some very handy tapes and primers around today that make things easier, achievable and cheaper.

All good!

Certified wrote: »

MVHR - 5 years ago the choice was very limited in this area, not so any more. A system that cost €9,000 5 years ago can now be replaced with a better system today for €4,500. The amount of producers has increased competition and hence the efficiencies of these machines are now remarkable.
The self builder can now do a quick search and find supply and fit companies and also a number of top quality wholesale distributors that are probably in their local area. It is possible to get the system fully designed and specified by a local PH designer and install the system youself. Its not rocket science once you have clear instructions.

Yes airtightness and MVHR are quite revolutionary really. Even if the u-values of the structure aren't up to passive standard, getting your airtightness down as low as possible (preferably <0.6 ACH) with a good MVHR appear to be no-brainers!

Certified wrote: »

Back to design - Specifing roof trusses can save a small fortune if you shop around. These companies really can be a PH designers/builders best friend. You can introduce service zones, access passages, deeper profiles to allow for cheaper insulation etc etc. Truss companies have been around for a good bit but thay were not on many occasions in the past better value, in my experience.
The easy solutions they can provide to building today mean they should not be overlooked.

Interesting point, and probably due to the increased use of MVHR roof truss companies have a better product range rather than your order being out of the ordinary!

Certified wrote: »

Windows - Its still a difficult area tho as if your on a really tight budget (most of us are) going with the PVC-U option can be your only choice.

And it appears from others on here currently building this is the deal breaker on deciding to go all out for PH or settle at near passive.

Certified wrote: »

Thankfully it looks like this may not be the situation for much longer. Designers and builders will soon be able to select Irish hardwood PH windows and doors at an affordable price. This for me as a designer is very significant.

Are you talking of one of the biggest joineries from a particular province?

Certified wrote: »

I could go on and on about how things have changed for the better but Id say you know this already and I dont want to be labelled a preacher again.

In fairness the mods cut a lot more slack as posters become regular contributors and they get to know you.

Certified wrote: »

I could give specific products and suppliers that I would recommend but then I would definitely get the chop.

The beauty of private messaging;). And I'd really appreciate such a PM:D.

Certified wrote: »

What I said in my earlier post in my oppinion is more important on the wallet than the above said items.

Yes, but unfortunately most self-builders (and I include myself in this) only stumble accross the passive concept after the house is designed and planning is received. I didn't want to get my hopes up too much until we had permission. Unfortunately I wasn't in a position to start in '09 but on the plus side I now know a bucket load more about it and, rightly or wrongly, and am confident enough to project manage my self-build. And in line with your first post, the house is designed following passive house design principles!

portwest

Certified, i would appreciate a p.m. Of those details also

sas

5 years ago when I stumbled across the passive concept, the experts were proclaiming that the additional build cost was only 10% over standard build and that you'd save alot of that by omitting a heating system.

Fast forward 5 years... The building regs have been overhauled at least twice in that period bringing the ph concept and min. regs. closer than ever.

Certified (in his post that got removed) refered to reducing your typical home size from 3000sq to 2700sq ft where he suggested that the extra saving on build size would cover the additional costs of Passive build.

So the same story 5 years apart, the goal posts are closer together but passive house construction costs are still commanding the same premium it would appear. This is even more confusing when you consider the local availability of PH components which should be cheaper.

I would suggest that the reason for this anomoly is because 5 years ago the experts were pulling the numbers out of the air and today Certifieds deleted post continues that legacy.

Another issue I'd like to point out with the position that Certified appears to have adopted. The vast majority of us must borrow to build our homes.
The amount we can borrow is based on the value of our homes.
The value of our homes is dictated by 2 major factors in Ireland, location and size. Energy efficiency as yet isn't playing any significant part in valuations based on my personal experience.
My point being that if you reduce the size of the house, you reduce the value of the house and hence you find yourself in the same position of still not being able to afford to build passive.

Can we please see some figures to back up the claims that it's only a 10% premium over standard build and also can we decide which set of regs. are defined as standard build for the purposes of the comparison.

Old Jim

portwest wrote: »

Certified, i would appreciate a p.m. Of those details also

Can I get those PMs also, certified? You make some good points.

sydthebeat

from my point of view, there is still a world of different between going down the "certified" route... and building to a passive assessment using a 'common sense' approach than the rigid approach you have to take when taking the certified route.

as a point of example. when being certified you must use passivhaus certified products. take a MHRV system for example, it may be say 90% efficient as per SAP Q but if it is not certified by passivhaus, any efficient in the assessment must be reduce by 18%.. so immediately you are penalised by having to choose a product that (a) is more expensive and (b) will probably need to me imported, leading to the usual after sales issues.

in my opinion certified passive houses in ireland are over specified, and this over specification is what leads to their extra cost over standard builds.
How often in assessments are thermal bridges set to 0 when in fact they are probably negative bridges which help reduce the energy value?
Passive assessment requires to default to worse case scenarios in all cases, which makes sense when looking to be certified, but make no allowance for alternative solutions for those extreme days when we have say worse than minus 5 temps. Its my contention that using some sort of temp convector heaters in these conditions would end up being extremely more economical than the spec that needs to be included in order to negate these temps.
For example one of the most economical methods of heating is a manual stove.... why??... because you simply add fuel when you need heat !
All the time and temperature technological controls you have are negated if you do it manually. Theres no thermostat more precise than your skin.

Certified

Sas,

Just to confirm to anyone reading, I do not proclaim to be an expert on anythig. It would be a foolish man who did.
I read those earlier statements also and I think I might know of the possible reasoning behind it.
Those old statements are just that, 'old'. Back then building costs were higher and I expect the added costs could have been absorbed by the 10% as the 10% equated to more.
If for arguments sake the avarage cost to build was €125 ft2(old) and is now €100 ft2(current), then for a house built to 3000 ft2 the 10% would change significantly. 10% back then was a very nice €37,500 and toady it would be less but still a very nice €30,000.
To explain this better perhaps I will give you the figures I am currently working with at the moment for PH projects. It is possible to get a PH builder in Ireland to construct a 3,000 ft2 certified house built to builders finish for €78 ft2 (This does not include connecting to services, kitchen, floor finishes or development levies).
It might be possible to go cheaper but something will give way, normally either the quality or time, probably both.

A standard house is a 2011 build reg house.

What would you say the average builders quote for a 3,000 ft2 house at todays 2011 build reg spec is?

Im not in 100% agreement with you about how homes get value. Having an energy efficient home is valued more by potential buyers than a standard poor performing home and I dont see how it would not? Also, how a building looks and is designed in my oppinion is even more important to kerb appeal and end value.
I am clearly biased in this regard but I think my PH designs are gorgeous and look like they cost a lot more than they actually do. I think this is the same for many other PH designs as well because ironically, more energy is put into them at the deisgn process.

The figures for a build project should not be concluded using a standard per ft2 price, as each project is different. But using an average per ft2/m2 price is usefull as a rule of thumb guide.

Regards,

Certified

fclauson

Certified wrote: »

...It is possible to get a PH builder in Ireland to construct a 3,000 ft2 certified house built to builders finish for €78 ft2 (This does not include connecting to services, kitchen, floor finishes or development levies)....

I would be interested to see the maths on how you achieve a certified passive house @78/sq ft

sas

Certified wrote: »

Sas,

Just to confirm to anyone reading, I do not proclaim to be an expert on anythig. It would be a foolish man who did.
I read those earlier statements also and I think I might know of the possible reasoning behind it.
Those old statements are just that, 'old'. Back then building costs were higher and I expect the added costs could have been absorbed by the 10% as the 10% equated to more.
If for arguments sake the avarage cost to build was €125 ft2(old) and is now €100 ft2(current), then for a house built to 3000 ft2 the 10% would change significantly. 10% back then was a very nice €37,500 and toady it would be less but still a very nice €30,000.
To explain this better perhaps I will give you the figures I am currently working with at the moment for PH projects. It is possible to get a PH builder in Ireland to construct a 3,000 ft2 certified house built to builders finish for €78 ft2 (This does not include connecting to services, kitchen, floor finishes or development levies).
It might be possible to go cheaper but something will give way, normally either the quality or time, probably both.

A standard house is a 2011 build reg house.

What would you say the average builders quote for a 3,000 ft2 house at todays 2011 build reg spec is?

Im not in 100% agreement with you about how homes get value. Having an energy efficient home is valued more by potential buyers than a standard poor performing home and I dont see how it would not? Also, how a building looks and is designed in my oppinion is even more important to kerb appeal and end value.
I am clearly biased in this regard but I think my PH designs are gorgeous and look like they cost a lot more than they actually do. I think this is the same for many other PH designs as well because ironically, more energy is put into them at the deisgn process.

The figures for a build project should not be concluded using a standard per ft2 price, as each project is different. But using an average per ft2/m2 price is usefull as a rule of thumb guide.

Regards,

Certified

Certified,

With respect, I am withdrawing from this discussion as I believe I'm getting a bout of "deja vu".

SAS

Certified

Syndthebeat,

I think I am in agreement. We should be making buildings less complicated and we should be removing the items which do not make financial sense.
In my view that is what the PHPP is all about, at least, thats why I use it anyway.

There is no excuse on this earth why a manufacturer of a MVHR system in Ireland does not have the official PH certification!

PHPP does allow for the use of non certified products, but where they are used/inputed, I agree, that they should be penalised! Tests have shown that some uncertified products actually have lower performance than what is stated by the manufacturer on their brochures. If I am going to spend thousands on a system, which is critical to the performance, I want to know it does what it says it does.

Designing the correct heating system for a PH is the most difficult issue for me. I think your right about the use of a stove. Thats what I would use personally but everybody differs and most clients dont like the idea of it. Its fine to look at it, but light it, no thanks.

The space heat demand is so small, it is in many cases dwarfed by the hot water heat demand.
I make changes to future heat system designs all the time, hopefully improving.

Some clients just do not trust the low figures and request a back up system, just in case. I put them in when requested, but I dont agree with it. I think the PHPP works just fine, it gives me the figures for the demand and heat load and its up to me to decide the best way to cater for it.
Recently we had two extreme winters and it has people thinking that we should all design for these extreme low temps as a minimum. Its a waste of hard earned money in my opinion.
I will always design the house so that the heat load can be provided by the MVHR system. Just makes the most common sense.

The difficult bit is to get a renewable energy product that will work and meet the build regs and not cost a fortune in the process.
A small timber boiler stove on its own meets the requiremnts most of the time. They are simple, efficient and do what they are ment to do.

In brief, I like wood boiler stoves, in fact I love them. Its just not everyone agrees with me!


Regards,

Certified

Certified

I'm new to this forum and I dont think I should be giving out specific details of products or services so soon, either via a thread or by pm. It just does not look good in fairness and I want to respect the rules, which protect this forum and keep it working.

Regards,

Certified

edit: pms are fine
what people do with that information is up to them. Public recommendations / disapprovals are not allowed

sydthebeat

sydthebeat

Certified wrote: »

PHPP does allow for the use of non certified products, but where they are used/inputed, I agree, that they should be penalised! Tests have shown that some uncertified products actually have lower performance than what is stated by the manufacturer on their brochures. If I am going to spend thousands on a system, which is critical to the performance, I want to know it does what it says it does.

lets call a spade a spade here, passivhaus is a commercial entity.

We have european testing standards, we have national testing standards.... why should we be penalised for using products that may have similar EN testing results but one is 'recommended' by a commercial business??

as a design tool i agree that is fantastic... it give such a specific assessment as to how a house will perform, the amount of detail is tremendous.
However, im specifically talking about going down the 'certified' route here.
In my opinion an assessment which shows a heating load of say 25 w/m2 will perform actually better in reality, due to the requirement to default to worst case scenario.

Certified

Synd,

I think it looks like a spade too. I assume the PH Institute are getting something out of this, I'm open to cerrection on this. I dont know how big an organisation they are but I would expect they have large overheads

The official software is not expensive, the information is free and you do not have to buy official certified products and you dont even have to get the project certified if you choose not to.
I have no problems with paying a fair price for something. But it has to be fair for everyone.
As far as I know it only costs €1,400 for a manufacturer to get a product tested and offically approved by the PHI. That does not seem bad considering how many thousands our own NSAI want, for what is just my own opinion a lesser service.
Certification in Ireland hikes the final price for the consumer.
Perhaps someone out there might be able to give me an indication of what the NSAI would likely charge for certification of a MVHR unit? I'm always told it can be very prohibitive for small business.


I personally use a high quality MVHR unit from a very large well known company that is non certified by the PHI (model is about to be certified I'm told) and just deduct the percentages. It means I have to make up the shortfall elsewhere, but in reality its not much of a burden and I actually break even or save a few euro on the instalation and I expect the house to perform even better at the same time, if not, at least I'm confident the system will work.

Nobody has to get their home certified by the PHI, if its your own house and your not planning on ever selling and you are confident in it, then I think certification is not really much benifit.

If on the other hand you are employing a contractor/builder etc to build your home for a fixed valuation on the understanding that you expect it be up to the Passive House standard then in my opinion its very useful. I wouldnt hand over a 1/4 of a million euro to anybody no matter how nice or professional they are with out it.
I think its the final cert that adds value and security if you decide to sell in the future. After all, if in the future you want to sell and are asking for a bargain price of €299,99.95. A potential buyer looks around and there will not be a traditional heating system visible and there will not be any cert so you might end up saying something like this ....'it works really, it does, I'm not kidding'. They might believe you, but their engineer/solicitor may not?

sydthebeat

Certified wrote: »

I think its the final cert that adds value and security if you decide to sell in the future.

highly questionable thinking there.....

the industry of financial lending cant even put a value of certification today, so why expect a layperson to do that tomorrow??

the 'security' you refer to is better served by spending the certification monies on a real central heating system.........

just do it

Certified

I'm interested in your opinion on this. What is your preferred build-up for a PH? Foundation, walls, roof? You don't need to name specific company names.

Certified

sydthebeat,

Interesting point, you dont think certified Passive Homes have a 'real central heating system'?

If you want to overspec a system to circumvent the certification process, thats possible and I suppose you could take that route.
I could not take that route as I have particular responsibilities, and I have to safe gaurd clients to ensure they get what they pay for.

Anyways, if your building a house of 3,000 ft2 +, I think you may just find that you will be out of pocket by taking that route. If you are in that situation and you do not do the math, it would be 'highly questionable thinking'.

Regards,

Certified

sydthebeat

Certified wrote: »

sydthebeat,

Interesting point, you dont think certified Passive Homes have a 'real central heating system'?

If you want to overspec a system to circumvent the certification process, thats possible and I suppose you could take that route.
I could not take that route as I have particular responsibilities, and I have to safe gaurd clients to ensure they get what they pay for.

Anyways, if your building a house of 3,000 ft2 +, I think you may just find that you will be out of pocket by taking that route. If you are in that situation and you do not do the math, it would be 'highly questionable thinking'.

Regards,

Certified

certified,.... you are not understanding anything i am saying... perhaps because you are too blinkered on this subject..

1

you dont think certified Passive Homes have a 'real central heating system

read again what i said.... i am not talking about myself, im fully aware about heating systems in passive houses. Im talking about 'joe soap, the prospective purchaser' who isnt up to speed on all the technical aspects of passivhaus who goes to view a house where hes told that the heating system is an electric element in the air conditioning system. Its my contention that real value and security of this asset is borne from making it as attractive an asset as possible. The cert on the wall doesnt do that in my opinion.

2

If you want to overspec a system to circumvent the certification process, thats possible and I suppose you could take that route.
I could not take that route as I have particular responsibilities, and I have to safe gaurd clients to ensure they get what they pay for.

firstly, im not talking about circumventing anything, read again what i have been saying... im suggesting not going for certification at all because, personally, i do not think the extra outlay involved is value for money.
secondly, i never at any stage commented on how you carry out your responsibilities, so please dont be paranoid.

Certified

Just do it,

The build up that I have settled on is as follows,

Foundation - Fully insulated and thermally broken using a hybrid between the off the shelf certifiied PH systems and a traditional strip foundation. A similar version is actually attached to a post previously submitted, on the tread I was moved from .
Its very simple. Dig and pour a strip found for the external leaf. Build up the external wall to FFL, fill with hardcore, blind, lay standard sheets of EPS 100 and EPS 300 in layers. I put in 3 layers.
The floor is poured with a thickened perimeter to create a ring beam. The perimeter ring beam carries all the loads from the roof. The floor is covered with steel mesh. I like to add fibres to the mix to eliminate cracking, along with the mesh it works.

Wall - A wide cavity construction. width depends on the values needed for the project. But usually 225 - 300mm with the appropriate wall ties (types were mentioned on other thread also). The cavity is closed and then pumped with graphite beads. All very simple.

Roof - truss roof which carries load onto the internal leaf of the external wall. attention needs to be given to make sure a pinch point is not created at wall plate level. Roof is pumped with cellulose or beads suitable for the job. I prefer cellulose but more pricey. The depth varies again but in the region of 400 - 500mm. A service platform is integrated above the insualtion line with access onto it via an attic ladder.

I do not use this spec for all jobs mind you, sometimes a timber frame is used even if it is more expensive to avoid cold weather delays in winter.

sydthebeat

Certified wrote: »

Foundation - Fully insulated and thermally broken using a hybrid between the off the shelf certifiied PH systems and a traditional strip foundation. A similar version is actually attached to a post previously submitted, on the tread I was moved from .

... so.... is that system certified by passivhaus for a wide cavity build?

Certified

I don't know. Its a hell of a lot cheaper tho

muffler

Certified wrote: »

I don't know. Its a hell of a lot cheaper tho

You dont know?

After your first couple of posts here I have to say that Im really surprised at that reply. Here was me thinking you were the best thing since sliced pan.

Certified

Haha, did I give you a bit of a curve ball

I dont use many officially certified products/systems. I would prefer to use a certified MVHR and Window system if possible but I wont pay a premium for it.
Getting a final certification for a client at the end is a different matter, but like I said before, in some cases its probably not warranted either.

BryanF

Certified wrote: »

I dont use many officially certified products/systems. I would prefer to use a certified MVHR and Window system if possible but I wont pay a premium for it.
Getting a final certification for a client at the end is a different matter, but like I said before, in some cases its probably not warranted either.

have you a passive house completed and certified?

Certified

Hi BryanF,
Thanks, I was just going to say that. I've noticed that my posts may read that I personnally have many certified PH jobs! That is not the case. 'I' work within a small team and yes we do have a certified project and working on several. I'm responsible for the architectural side of things and that's where I hope I'm good.
My passion so to speak lies in design. It's just that I believe good design has a responsibility to be also good on the technical aspect also. I'm posting only my own personal thoughts on the subject and not for the team so that's why I have used I in place of us or we. Hope that helps to clarify.
Posting in from a phone, not the easiest as have fat fingers so apologies for spelling.

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

I would be interested to see the maths on how you achieve a certified passive house @78/sq ft

just bumping - I got no reply

BryanF

fclauson wrote: »

just bumping - I got no reply

have you not seen the €83.5k for 200m2 passive 'budget build' by a certain Norse builder:)

Certified

Fclauson,

A 3,000ft2 constructed to a high quality builders finish for €78 including vat represents excellent value in my opinion. Some may say its still too much for a few blocks and cement, however, from my calculations, using the sketchy build formula I've given, a very nice attractive home can be completed with all parties happy.
A home should be designed around a budget and not the other way around. That's an obvious statement I know but lots of times designers get carried away with lofty ambitions. Plans get drawn up by whoever gave the cheapest quote because the applicant already knows what they want and select the largest square foot of a house they can based on a rough price they heard somewhere and decided that they have a few mates in building which will mean they will probably even better that price.
It can be a recipe for a design and build nightmare in some cases. I'm getting into a bit of a rant now.
Others take their time and pay a bit more at the design stage and get the project completed to their budget. The house may in some cases actualy be smaller in area but the design works for the family.
Size is not everything when it comes to value.

By my sums, the additional costs of good design, supervision and certification can be covered with the savings using the method I gave.
I found that was the case with the 2008 build regs so it is also for the 2012 build regs.
Of course the house could have been built the same way and you could avoid the design, supervision and certification fees. It's just the chances of achieving the right formula are slim unless you are naturally very good at this kind of stuff. Some people are I must add!

My above view is based on averages, there will always be exceptional cases.

sydthebeat

Theres absolutely no maths there certified.... after your last few posts im beginning to think your last name might be Mitty.

muffler

Certified wrote: »

however, from my calculations, using the sketchy build formula I've given, a very nice attractive home can be completed with all parties happy.

By my sums, the additional costs of good design, supervision and certification can be covered with the savings using the method I gave.
I found that was the case with the 2008 build regs so it is also for the 2012 build regs.

At my age I tend to nod off now and again and may have missed your calculations. Can you point me to where they are posted please?

Certified

was low on math alright, will return with a figures once I find my hat lol

portwest

Certified,

What province are you based, because I am about to build a 3000sf house to passive spec i.e. 15kwh/m2 and I can tell you i am not even coming close to e78 from builders who have built these type of houses with wide cavity?

sydthebeat

portwest, could you post what range of quotations youve had for this spec?

seeings as its passive spec there cant be a huge variation surely

portwest

Sydthebeat, they range from 95e to 115e for builders finish.

beyondpassive

Had some quotes from good contractors the lowest best fit was €1180 per meter squared turnkey ex VAT ex Landscaping ex Garage but including site connections and drainage below ground in South Leinster, Near Passive standard and A2 BER, (16.8kWh/m2 0.6 air changes) 220m2 mid range finishes, 2 storey wide cavity house wide slab. Plumbing, ventilation + pipework €32k, Windows and doors €37k, (Fitted Kitchen and Wardrobes by clients) Hardwood Stairs and internal joinery and floors €11k. Thats €110 per square foot for a simple shape with every element 'value engineered using the optimally priced components.

Would love to see this standard of build under €100 but just can't see how you can get under €110 without the Contractor buying the job and going under half way through as happened the contractor who was pricing jobs at €90 per sq.ft builders finish and ignoring the VAT returns.

Would love to see how people are getting under the 100.

just do it

Certified wrote: »

We now have Irish supplers of insulated foundation systems that are better value than the imported systems. Hybrid systems now being used which are more flexible to normal selfbuilding conditions.

Certified wrote: »

In many casses it is possible to achieve a PH insulated foundation sytem for less than it would cost to build using the standard method of strip foundations, well known insulation and floating concrete floor. It can even be quicker if that is important for the build.

Certified wrote: »

Foundation - Fully insulated and thermally broken using a hybrid between the off the shelf certifiied PH systems and a traditional strip foundation. A similar version is actually attached to a post previously submitted, on the tread I was moved from .

It's been snipped so I can't view it and don't remember the specifics of it. I don't believe it had specifics like in your post below and I don't recall any attachment with the original post.

Certified wrote: »

Its very simple. Dig and pour a strip found for the external leaf. Build up the external wall to FFL, fill with hardcore, blind, lay standard sheets of EPS 100 and EPS 300 in layers. I put in 3 layers.
The floor is poured with a thickened perimeter to create a ring beam. The perimeter ring beam carries all the loads from the roof. The floor is covered with steel mesh. I like to add fibres to the mix to eliminate cracking, along with the mesh it works.

Have you a picture of this build-up? I don't grasp where the inner leaf sits and how the cold bridge is eliminated. And what about internal walls - what foundation is underneath them? Bear in mind some maybe structural in nature (weight bearing).

just do it

beyondpassive wrote: »

Had some quotes from good contractors the lowest best fit was €1180 per meter squared turnkey ex VAT ex Landscaping ex Garage but including site connections and drainage below ground in South Leinster, Near Passive standard and A2 BER, (16.8kWh/m2 0.6 air changes) 220m2 mid range finishes, 2 storey wide cavity house wide slab. Plumbing, ventilation + pipework €32k, Windows and doors €37k, (Fitted Kitchen and Wardrobes by clients) Hardwood Stairs and internal joinery and floors €11k. Thats €110 per square foot for a simple shape with every element 'value engineered using the optimally priced components.

Would love to see this standard of build under €100 but just can't see how you can get under €110 without the Contractor buying the job and going under half way through as happened the contractor who was pricing jobs at €90 per sq.ft builders finish and ignoring the VAT returns.

Would love to see how people are getting under the 100.

BP

Given how competitive contractors have to be in the current environment, is it possible to get below €100 pre sq.ft by going direct labour and being slow and meticulous? Can I add I'm confident I can employ quality workmen for the various stages.

sydthebeat

just do it wrote: »

BP

Given how competitive contractors have to be in the current environment, is it possible to get below €100 pre sq.ft by going direct labour and being slow and meticulous? Can I add I'm confident I can employ quality workmen for the various stages.

ask SAS as this is exactly the route he took....

but lets be serious, employing quality experienced workmen over 'chance-me-arm' types is going to command a higher premium obviously.

In my experience most contaractors are simply project managers nowadays, very few have retained their own full working crew and most sub-contract out. So the "savings" as such from direct labour is the client taking the place and role as the project manager.

Certified

I have not got a chance to read all posts. I'm under pressure to get my thumb out at work.
Below is a breakdown of a 2 story PH at 3,000 ft2. It's in my imagination only but it's a straight forward trad type design. Lovely and simply detailed.
I have clearly added in the builders cut to certain stages and left the PH specifics regular if I can say that.

PH slab 20k
Walls 20k
Windows 15 k
Roof & floor 27k
Airtight measures 6k
Mvhr & exchanger 5.5k
Oak joinery 15k
Plastering 22k
Electrical 13k
Plumbing 10k
Solar 6.5k
Stove 4.5 k
Misc insulation 10k
Sanitary ware 9.5k
Professional services
And certification 9.5k
Insurance 1
Scaffolding 2k
Tests 2 k
Cleaning 2 k
Painting in & out 5k

+ VAT on total

House is below 15kw and official glass plaque is in a box in the attic.
Build reg complied with and all get a fair deal.

The above is rushed, working off a bloody iPhone with a cracked screen and I've To finish an application by tonight.

sydthebeat

those figures dont look so bad, but the one glaring cost is 15K for passive certed windows on a 3000 sq ft house... im sorry but not a snowballs chance in hell... try tripling that cost.

your miscellaneous insulation costs at 10K seem a bit shy to me for a 300 pumped cavity for possibly 400 sq m and possibly 400mm quilt in attic for 140 sq m area.

Certified

Hi, just in relation to windows. They are the Irish PVC-U type. We all know who at this stage!
The figure is based on a similar house recently where bought for €12,500 incl vat.
I'm not certain but I think they have risen in price in the past year.

Insulation is a little mixed up with other stages

Poor Uncle Tom

As we know your ph slab can't be just dropped onto a grass footing, does the €20,000 include 'opening' the site, excavations to formation level, primary access trunking, excavation of strips and the insulated formwork, etc you described in earlier posts?

Just interested, where does the connection to services come into it? water supply, treatment system and percolation areas, soakaways for rainwater goods, foorpaths for level access?

Certified

My use of builders finish does not include any site services what so ever. The reason being, every site is different and is the site in a green field or in town?
The costs to install all services whatever that work may involve is significant and varies massively.
I think it's reasonable to allow €1k from the ph slab budget to cover breaking site with track machine and dumper. A basic stone construction access is necessary for works to proceed but if site is in any way boggy or difficult an extra cost would need to be agreed prior to commencement.

So to answer question, yes on a good site following inspection, everything could be included to ensure project is completed to builders finish.

As Tom said, there are still items required to live in the house that are missing

Certified

Portwest,

I'm basing prices for a new PH in Dublin,Kildare,Wicklow, Carlow and parts of neighbouring counties.
Have not much experience of build costs outside this general area. In the boom these counties suffered heavy costs, prob the same now but I do not know that.

You should make sure you are comparing like with like by using a detailed spec that you provided to each builder. It's interesting to just request a house that is 15kw from a builder because different solutions they choose will mean prices will be different.
If no detailed drawings or spec is provided to a builder however, I think it is a little unfair to slate a price that is too high. I'm not for one second suggesting that in your case mind, but in general.

Poor Uncle Tom

Certified wrote: »

It is possible to get a PH builder in Ireland to construct a 3,000 ft2 certified house built to builders finish for €78 ft2 (This does not include connecting to services, kitchen, floor finishes or development levies).

To be clear, a builders finish takes a site from a green field and delivers a house, without; kitchen, tiling, floor coverings, painting, fire front, or fitted furniture.
I expect a builders finish to also provide connection to water and sewerage (including the provision of a treatment system and percolation area) in order that the plumbing can be fully tested. Electricity should also be connected so all electrics can be tested and certified before a builders finish/handover. Connection fees however should be paid by the client as should any contributions.
Footpaths, level access, blinded and rolled driveway should also be included.

Certified wrote: »

My use of builders finish does not include any site services what so ever. The reason being, every site is different and is the site in a green field or in town?

Generally always taken as being from a green field site.
If site services are not included with a builders finish how is the client meant to test all the fittings?

Certified wrote: »

The costs to install all services whatever that work may involve is significant and varies massively.

This is one major reason your figure is so low.

Certified wrote: »

I think it's reasonable to allow €1k from the ph slab budget to cover breaking site with track machine and dumper. A basic stone construction access is necessary for works to proceed but if site is in any way boggy or difficult an extra cost would need to be agreed prior to commencement.

You're just having a laugh here, basic site works on any green field site for any 3000 sq ft house will cost €6,000 to carry out properly.

Certified wrote: »

So to answer question, yes on a good site following inspection, everything could be included to ensure project is completed to builders finish.

Simple answer, no it can't.

Certified wrote: »

As Tom said, there are still items required to live in the house that are missing

And some very basic items missing from your list in order that the house should be finished to Builder's finish.

Certified wrote: »

You should make sure you are comparing like with like.....

You really need to heed your own advice.

People come on here looking for ideas of what it is going to cost to build their houses, what they can include, what size of building they can afford, etc. Usually they will have the site price factored in, they will have an idea of the professional fees and council contributions per sq metre build. Then they come across your post advocating a 'certified passive build cost' of €78/sqft or less. When your build costs don't even take into consideration such basics as all the ground works.

I ask you now to seriously cost your 3,000 sq ft building to certified passive standard, to include all I have specified above as a builders finish.

Certified

I'm very disappointed in your last aggressive post Tom.
At no point did I say what you are alleging!
I will not accept that sort of rubbish from anyone

Poor Uncle Tom

Certified wrote: »

At no point did I say what you are alleging!

There's a reason it's called quoting.....;)

Certified

Im not getting involved with such childish behaviour.
If wanted a proper adult discussion you should have just asked me in a more civilized way. I would have answered any of your concerns. You never had to agree with it!

I see now, I'm just wasting my time

Good luck

Poor Uncle Tom

The rattle has been forcibly ejected from the perambulator.....:p

just do it

This thread reminds me of a story about Seve Ballesteros a few years ago. He had just missed the cut and was being interviewed. He lambasted the course and blamed his bad score on it. The interviewer was a bit in shock but straight away had to interview another golfer. He asked the other golfer what he thought of the course in light of what Seve had just said. The other golfer said "there are 150 golfers here today and 149 of them don't see anything wrong with the course". Enough said;)