Primary school college course and atheism

robindch

darealtulip wrote: »

Exactly, is there anyone with a law degree here?

There's at least one person, perhaps two. Will wait for them to intervene.

Canis Lupus

I've never complained 'formally' in my life but just fired off an email to Mr Quinn and Hibernia. I must be getting old because I'm completely appalled that such questions/material are given to prospective teachers of our youth.

Peregrinus

The Hibernia College H. Dip. in Arts in Primary Education is professionally accredited by the Teaching Council of Ireland. This is important, because without that accreditation the diploma wouldn’t qualify people to work as primary teachers in Ireland, or elsewhere in the EU.

When the TCI system was set up existing “recognized” teaching qualifications were “grandfathered in”, and deemed to be accredited, pending a review by the TCI. I do not know whether this is the basis of the current “accredited” status of the Hibernia College course.

Starting in 2009, the Council began a programme of rolling reviews of the accredited courses. Judging from the Teaching Council website, the Hibernia College accreditation has yet to be reviewed, which means that a review must be impending in the foreseeable future - though I don’t know when. Still, it might provide an opportunity for anyone concerned about this to put some pressure on Hibernia College.

The focus of TCI accreditation is on the question of whether the programme in question prepares a student for entry into the teaching profession. This means, at the risk of oversimplifying, that they are mainly interested in whether the course is effective to impart teaching skills. It’s more focused on whether students are taught how to teach than whether they are taught what to teach. Objections to Hibernia College’s accreditation need to be framed with this in mind. So the issue is not whether, in the RE module, students are being taught things which are factually wrong, or are being taught as certainties things which are debatable and/or controversial, but whether they are being taught things which will not equip them to function as effective RE teachers in (pluralist, diverse, modern) Ireland. It shouldn’t be too difficult to frame representations in these terms.

Plus, they do expect that students will be equipped with knowledge of the subject matter and the related methodology of the primary school curriculum/syllabus. So there might be some merit in comparing the substantive content and tone of the Hibernia College RE module with the Dept of Education primary school syllabus, and pointing to any contrasts.

Quite separately from professional accreditation from the TCI, the Hibernian College diploma receives academic validation from HETAC. HETAC can allow academic institutions to validate their own courses, but Hibernia College is not on the list of institutions allowed to do this. I don’t know whether validation by HETAC is periodically reviewed, but it might be worth looking into. There’s a striking contrast between the RE syllabus on the Hibernia College website and the course notes and sample exam questions mentioned in this thread. It must surely be a matter of concern to HETAC if Hibernia College are not teaching to their own syllabus.

darealtulip

"Quite separately from professional accreditation from the TCI, the Hibernian College diploma receives academic validation from HETAC. HETAC can allow academic institutions to validate their own courses, but Hibernia College is not on the list of institutions allowed to do this. I don’t know whether validation by HETAC is periodically reviewed, but it might be worth looking into. There’s a striking contrast between the RE syllabus on the Hibernia College website and the course notes and sample exam questions mentioned in this thread. It must surely be a matter of concern to HETAC if Hibernia College are not teaching to their own syllabus."

I am on my way to find contact details for HETAC

darealtulip

Contact Us
HETAC, 26 - 27 Denzille Lane, Dublin 2, Ireland.
t. +353 (0)1 631 45 67
f. +353 (0)1 631 45 77
e: info@hetac.ie

Mail sent to them also. I requested clarification if this is common content under the HETAC

Dades

darealtulip wrote: »

Exactly, is there anyone with a law degree here?

I have one (Dades LL.B)

Though my legal skills are rustier than a Fiat Ritmo left sitting 20 years on a Donegal beach.

darealtulip

Dades wrote: »

I have one (Dades LL.B)

Though my legal skills are rustier than a Fiat Ritmo left sitting 20 years on a Donegal beach.

Cool, could we have your expert opinion; do you think there would be a case in this?

oceanclub

Here's a copy of the letter I sent; feel free to use as a basis for your own letters:

Dear Minister Quinn,

Note: I CC a copy of this email to the Academic Affairs dept of Hibernia College. I was hoping to await a reply to initial emails I have sent to that college, but since 2 days later I have not received any response, I decided to press ahead and mail you. If Hibernia College disagree with any of the following, they can reply and let me know.

According to a student of the college posting on boards.ie (*), the following screenshots show sample exam questions from the Hibernia College H. Dip. for primary school teaching online exam. This qualification is a requirement to teach in all Irish schools.

In the accompanying notes (again, if any of this is not true, Hibernia College can correct me), it says:

"Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

The following screenshots show sample exam questions; the answer for the first is "true" - the course teaches as objective fact the idea that humanism is responsible for the worst horrors in history.

<screenshot here>

For the second screenshot, the answer is the first option; that is, again, it teaches as fact that both Hinduism _and_ atheism are negative forces.

<screenshot here>

I'm a humanist married to a Catholic, and appalled, angry and disgusted that the next generation of Irish teachers are being training to be mindless bigots. I, and I'm sure my wife, would feel the same if the course & exam questions were only negative towards Catholicism.

I would like to know:

• how Hibernia College produced this material which, rather than teaching about all religions, is almost comically biased against anything except Christianity
• who was responsible for its creation
• who who approved it in either HETAC or the Teaching Council of Ireland

Is mise le meas,

etc.

(*) http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056553324

P.

robindch

number10a wrote: »

I didn't get anything that could be described as any way controversial at all. Nothing worth taking a screen grab of in the slightest. The exam was crazy

Interesting -- thanks for reporting back.

Out of interest, were the questions phrased as though the religion was true? Or were they phrased just as simple questions about the religion?

expectationlost

Silver_525 wrote: »

I'm doing that religion exam that the OP is referring to.
Just found the part about atheism that the question referred to in my notes...it goes as follows "Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history".

So as you can see that wasn't some random question in the sample test, it's taken directly from the notes they give us...

is that everything that's said about atheism in all of the course notes?

gawker

Haven't posted on this topic yet because it just breaks my heart to see how much religious people/ideas have become infused into our education system - it is there at every level. Anyway, with some inspiration from other great letters posted on this thread, here is my little piece:

Minister Quinn, Hibernia College Dublin Management,

Dear Minister Quinn,

Note: I have CCed a copy of this email to the Academic Affairs Dept of Hibernia College for their consideration.

According to a student of the college posting on boards.ie, a number of sample exam questions for teacher-in-training show a clear bias towards certain religious beliefs. Question 12 in the exam reads:

"Athiest humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed."

This statement invites the student to choose "true" or "false" with "true" being the correct answer. Not only is the statement historically inaccurate, but it is worrying that deeming such a statement to be true could be a requirement for somebody to become a teacher in Ireland.

Question 12 in the exam reads:

"Which statement is false?

Hinduism is a positive force for change in society.
Athiesm has had, historically speaking, a negative effect on society.
Islam is based on the identity of religion and society."

The answer that seems positive of Hinduism is wrong according to the requirements to pass the exam, wheras the statements knocking Islam and Athiesm are deemed correct. A further illustration of the ignorant and biased information potential teachers must "learn" is illustrated by this piece from the accompanying notes for the exam:

"Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is "in", not to mention convenient. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history."

I, frankly, don't know where to start with the above text. This e-mail is not appropriate for a debate on such subject anyway. However, I find it disgusting that somebody who wants to teach in this country must endure this level of bias against people who do not follow the Christian faith. Indeed, Hibernia College are the only teacher training college which was deemed not to be denominational - one can only imagine the level of bias those in other institutions experience.

I would like to ask the following questions:
(1) Are the instructions of Hibernia College on these topics in line with your departments wishes for teacher education and the content of such programs?
(2) If the instructions of Hibernia College are not in line with your departments wishes, what can you do to bring their activities in line with quality expectations?
(3) Are there any plans to prove a non-religious alternative to the current options when it comes to teacher education? The number of non-religious people is growing in this country and those people ought to be able to become teachers without having to agree with statements against people who are not Christian/Catholic.

Thank you very much for your time,

Etc Etc...

muppeteer

expectationlost wrote: »

is that everything that's said about atheism in all of the course notes?

The content of the course notes will be the most important thing.
Considering the screen grabs were only of a mock question and the actual exam didn't seem to have the same question the college may fob it off as not counting.

I'm not sure how we could get access to the full course notes considering the students may not be able to post them here without copyright issues.


OP, I hope this whole thread hasn't caught you off guard with all the emails flying around. I'd hate to think this could come back on you in any adverse way from the college.

Annoyoboy

My other half is a Hibernia graduate so I have a semi-interest in this thread.

Hibernia students should note that by bringing your college into public disrepute you are effectively devaluing your own qualification which will mitigate against you when you are sat in front of a principal/board of management interviewing for a job. I'm sure the college has an internal complaints/feedback procedure for students which may be a more appropriate route to take rather than stirring up a fuss on a public forum.

Just something to bear in mind.

Sparks

Annoyoboy wrote: »

Hibernia students should note that by bringing your college into public disrepute you are effectively devaluing your own qualification which will mitigate against you when you are sat in front of a principal/board of management interviewing for a job. I'm sure the college has an internal complaints/feedback procedure for students which may be a more appropriate route to take rather than stirring up a fuss on a public forum.
Just something to bear in mind.

That's an annoying way to try to intimidate someone into shutting up.

BTW, it's not a private complaint by a student, it's a public complaint because this sort of thing is unacceptable from society's viewpoint.

gawker

Annoyoboy wrote: »

Hibernia students should note that by bringing your college into public disrepute ...

I think Hibernia should note that teaching nonsense brings their college into public disrepute.

And, in fairness, it's not as if any other teacher education college here can claim to be any different when it comes to religious issues.

number10a

robindch wrote: »

Interesting -- thanks for reporting back.

Out of interest, were the questions phrased as though the religion was true? Or were they phrased just as simple questions about the religion?

A lot of questions were phrased as historical fact because that's what they essentially dealt with. e.g. What does 'Messiah' mean? What do Jews call the first five books of the Bible? How many books in the New Testament? etc. etc.

There were other questions based around Catholic belief and dogma and they were written as if it was true. e.g. The Holy Spirit only comes during Confirmation. True/False. A receiver's grace increases every time they receive Holy Communion. True/False. These are all paraphrased, but effectively the content is the same. Even a qualifying statement at the start of such a statement like "Catholics believe that....." would make the whole thing infinitely better.

muppeteer wrote: »

The content of the course notes will be the most important thing.
Considering the screen grabs were only of a mock question and the actual exam didn't seem to have the same question the college may fob it off as not counting.

I cannot imagine the college being able to fob this off. What's been taught has been taught and this cannot be undone, regardless of the content of the real exam. All that I have shown from the mock exam is in black and white in the course notes.

muppeteer wrote: »

I'm not sure how we could get access to the full course notes considering the students may not be able to post them here without copyright issues.

OP, I hope this whole thread hasn't caught you off guard with all the emails flying around. I'd hate to think this could come back on you in any adverse way from the college.

I have thought about making the notes available on here, but copyright issues have stopped me. There's plenty fodder in there alright though.

I have been caught off guard in the sense that I really ony came on here to rant and type some rage out of my system. Never thought I would get this kind of a reaction. But I'm delighted with it. People have reacted brilliantly to this. Hopefully it will bring about some change. I was thinking myself that with all those emails going to Minister Quinn, it has a personal interest for him as he is an atheist himself. I can't imagine he is too fond of a college branding his kind as the worst thing to ever happen to humanity.

I'm not worried about reaction from the college. The last thing they will want on their hands is a persecuted whistleblower going public. You must remember that Hibernia College is a private enterprise that gets €9,000 from every student. Bad publicity is not on their wish list.

lazygal

Sparks wrote: »

That's an annoying way to try to intimidate someone into shutting up.

BTW, it's not a private complaint by a student, it's a public complaint because this sort of thing is unacceptable from society's viewpoint.

And graduates will be teaching in the PUBLIC primary system, which is totally dominated by faith schools. I can't think of a more public complaint to make than how teachers are required to teach this in public schools funded by the public, ie taxpayers.

Sarky

Still, best to go for the source of the problem. It's a bit late to be complaining about a teacher's training once they're telling this crap to their pupils.

kylith

Email sent.

Coriolanus

muppeteer wrote: »

I'm not sure how we could get access to the full course notes considering the students may not be able to post them here without copyright issues.

Tricky one. Considering it could be, and we certainly would, construe the release as being in the public interest they probably would be able draw on whistleblower/protection of sources type legislation.
Course there's always something to be said for just putting it on online anonymously, new account, upload file to google docs, hey presto.

Dades

Nevore wrote: »

Course there's always something to be said for just putting it on online anonymously, new account, upload file to google docs, hey presto.

There is something to be said for it: that would be potentially illegal.
Right? Right?

kylith

I got a reply from the minister

Dear Ms Kylith

Thank you for your recent email in relation to Hibernia College exam.

The Graduate Diploma in Primary Education offered by Hibernia College has been recognised for the purpose of qualification as a primary teacher for almost 10 years. Hibernia College is a privately-owned institution providing a privately-run course, which is not funded by the Department. Both the content of the course and any related exams are a matter for the College in the first instance. As the Teaching Council is the statutory body empowered to review and professionally accredit such programmes of initial teacher education, the issue you raised has been brought to its attention.

I hope this information is of assistance to you.





Yours sincerely,



____________________

Ronnie Ryan

Private Secretary

Looks to me like they're washing their hands of it because it's a private college.

Dades

kylith wrote: »

Looks to me like they're washing their hands of it because it's a private college.

More like a case of...



To the Teaching Council.

And then washing their hands.

muppeteer

^The teaching council are not really private though as they operate under the Teaching council Act so they can only wash so much before it just comes back on the Department of Education.

Kooli

number10a wrote: »

A lot of questions were phrased as historical fact because that's what they essentially dealt with. e.g. What does 'Messiah' mean? What do Jews call the first five books of the Bible? How many books in the New Testament? etc. etc.

There were other questions based around Catholic belief and dogma and they were written as if it was true. e.g. The Holy Spirit only comes during Confirmation. True/False. A receiver's grace increases every time they receive Holy Communion. True/False. These are all paraphrased, but effectively the content is the same. Even a qualifying statement at the start of such a statement like "Catholics believe that....." would make the whole thing infinitely better.

This is what bothers me about teaching religion in school and how anyone can argue that it's not indoctrination.

You're sitting a child down in a school environment, the same classroom where they are taught the facts about maths, science and geography.

Then you teach them the 'facts' about religion, the holy spirit, the resurrection, and they are supposed to tell the difference? That these facts are 'different' and they are welcome to 'find their own way' when they get older? No, it's pure indoctrination, and it can't be called anything different.

kylith

I might write back and say that even though this is a private college it is training teacher for public schools. Is the DoE really happy with its teachers having this kind of grounding? Wouldn't the curriculum of a teacher training college have to fit in with the curriculum of public schools; e.g. there'd be no point in training the teachers in calculus if the primary they're going to only goes as far as long division.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

More like a case of...



To the Teaching Council.

And then washing their hands.

muppeteer wrote: »

^The teaching council are not really private though as they operate under the Teaching council Act so they can only wash so much before it just comes back on the Department of Education.

gawker

kylith wrote: »

I got a reply from the minister


Looks to me like they're washing their hands of it because it's a private college.

I got the exact same reply. Well, lets all chip in and start a teaching college that forces participants to state that "God is not real" and "Catholicism has been responsible for disgusting crimes and constitutes a rotten institution." I'm pretty sure the rules will be changed fairly quickly then... :rolleyes:

oceanclub

I got a reply from the college itself. None of it answers any of the questions I originally had, just talking in generalities:

Thank you for contacting Hibernia College with your concerns. Firstly, I would like to state that Hibernia College embraces an ethos and culture of inclusion and respect for diversity in all aspects of its work, and our student teachers and graduates teach in a wide range of schools; schools that include all faiths and other ethical programmes.



In relation to the specific points currently being discussed on various online forums, it is important to note the following:



· The multiple choice questions mentioned are part of a broader examination process which includes a written exam. In this written exam students are encouraged to discuss and debate the various points being examined. Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content, but rather their ability to discuss, debate and critique this material.

· The content of all our courses is presented to students in a way that encourages debate, critical discussion and analysis. Students attend live online tutorials and onsite workshops and are expected to contribute to tutor led discussion forums. All aspects of the religious education content are open to critique and healthy debate and students are encouraged to express their views.

· All our programmes are reviewed on an ongoing basis. This includes seeking the contribution of various relevant stakeholders. We are currently in the process of creating an advisory group representing the wide spectrum of belief systems in Ireland today to ensure that our course content continues to reflect the diversity of beliefs represented in our society. We look forward to taking advice from this board as with all our advisory boards.

AFAIK, the exam questions are true/false yes/no answers for which you receive marks for the "right" answer, correct? In which case, how is "Students are not assessed on their acceptance of the course content" correct?

P.

muppeteer

kylith wrote: »

I might write back and say that even though this is a private college it is training teacher for public schools. Is the DoE really happy with its teachers having this kind of grounding? Wouldn't the curriculum of a teacher training college have to fit in with the curriculum of public schools; e.g. there'd be no point in training the teachers in calculus if the primary they're going to only goes as far as long division.

I don't think there is any religious syllabus that the department can enforce though, but I could be wrong in that assumption. They may have guidelines of some sort but I'm unsure.

If there isn't, then there would have to be some other regulation that prevents a teacher teaching things that are either factually untrue or that can be harmful to the child's education.
Without those type of rules we could be snookered as far as finding a clear breach of protocol in the accreditation of the college.

Otherwise we would just have to appeal to common sense that these views are unacceptable to teach to teachers and children. And appeals to common sense can be hit and miss in Ireland to say the least:)