Jon Snow's mother

Pepe LeFrits

So how does a thread like this work then?

I've read the books and have a pretty firm belief who I think his mother is, but I can't really remember if I formed that belief from watching the series or if it came later from reading the books (probably later...). In fact, does posting that we still don't know the answer after reading the books count as a spoiler?

... and also, considering we don't know the answer, does my posting who I think it is count as a spoiler? I guess it probably does, considering Mr Martin has put more clues and such (or at least I think they're clues!) in the later books.

So tell us tv viewers, ever thought about it much? Any thoughts?

My view, is that:

Spoiler for all 5 books:

it's got to be Lyanna Stark, with Rhaegar Targaryen as the father. HAS to be!

Poor old Ned, shouldering the dishonour for all those years to protect his sister's little dragon-wolf hybrid from the likes of Robert and Tywin Lannister.

Poor Jon too. Although I suspect he'll be back to join forces with Dany eventually...

Seren_

I think it's the same as you. There are SO many clues throughout the books (and I've only read the first two so far :pac:). It was actually something in the TV show that made me think that

Ned wasn't really Jon's father

, but I can't remember what. It just seems

jarring with his character too. How are we supposed to believe that a guy who is so held up on honour would cheat on his wife, even if he didn't know her that well at the time. He also seems quite dismissive and embarrassed about Robert having illegitimate children, even though he's supposed to have one himself.

PhlegmyMoses

Spot on for me.

One of the main things about Eddard is that he is considered to be one of the most loyal men in Westeros. Nobody really knows who Eddard was supposed to have porked. That scene in the first book when Robert is reminiscing with Eddard when they're out hunting and Robert doesn't even remember the supposed girl's name. This is weird as his friend is considered so virtuous, surely his best mate knows what happened. There are also 3 dragons. So Dany and Aegon plus one more. Catelyn also mentions that Jon looks the most like the Starks out of all of Eddard's kids.

Edit:

Actually one of the big things is how loving he seems when he tells Jon in book one that he would tell him about his mother next time he sees him. You don't get the impression that she was some dirty mistake, but someone he actually loved.

madrab

We will have to wait until either:
A:

Bran learns more greenseeing and witnessing something resembling it in the past

or

B:

We finally meet Howland Reed at some stage - he is the only one still living who was at the Tower of Joy where Eddard and Howland fought their way in and killed Gerold Hightower, Oswell Went and and Athur Dayne, the sword of the morning

Kay_80

I agree totally re

Lyanna being the mother, and for a long while did work with Rhaegar being the baby daddy

However after reading the books (all except for a Dance with Dragons which I'm purposefully holding off on because I don't want to wait 5 years for the next installment so knowing I have that still to read keeps me going! I've begun to wonder is it possible that

Rather than Rhaegar being the baby daddy that it's Robert? I know the time line may not work but I was thinking that Jon is always being described as being 'of an age' with Rob but what if it's a case he's actually a little older? Is It possible from a timeline point of view? Could Lyanna and Robert have conceived Jon at Harranhal before Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty and they ran off together/she was abducted depending on what way you want to read into it? I don't recall a timeline being described between her original 'abduction' and when she was rescued at the tower of Joy

I've always thought that she died in childbirth (it's described as in a bed of blood) and the promise she made Ned swear was to bring Jon up as his own but to never tell Robert or anyone else. It's described that Robert was very much in love with Lyanna but she was not as into him as it were and she didn't like his phillandering ways so maybe didn't want her/their son growing up like that. Jon has the same colouring as Robert and Roberts bastards (I'm thinking Gendry, Edric Storm etc)not that of the Targaryens ie blond and fair skin - but I know Lyanna being dark (I'm assuming she was considering they say Arya looks so much like Lyanna did) that could explain why

After watching the series a couple of times I wonder is that why Ned gets somewhat angry at Robert when he asks him about who Jons mother is and that he's angry because he's protecting Lyanna's honor but also angry at himself for his own Honor code and going against that by lying to him about both Lyanna being the mother and possibly Robert maybe being the father

Pepe LeFrits

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

I don't think the timeslines match up for that.

Besides, if Jon is Robert's son, I don't see any solid rationale for making Ned assume the dishonour. Jon would likely have been considered heir to the throne considering Robert and Lyanna were betrothed.

Gilldog

Im also really interested in finding out what the have in store for Jon Snow's character...mainly because there seems to be hints of his potential to be a great warrior (his great skills with a sword, and his troubles with his identity/ something to prove) then say for example he found out who his real mother was he may want to avenge her death - but how can he if he is stuck manning The Wall?

I keep thinking that they have made it pretty impossible to go anywhere decent with that character (barring a miracle) because, like Ned, he is a man of honour and he took the oath which means if were to go off on a crusade of some sort (which would be brilliant) he would be hunted down and beheaded for desertion....its a bit of a dead end, I mean, how could he get around that, he has made his choice, to stay there for life. It just seems so weird that they are hinting at all this hidden stuff that he seemingly won't be able to deal with.

Sorry if that sounds weird, I havent read the books, just rewatched the whole first season in anticipation for April 1st.

Tzar Chasm

Gilldog wrote: »

Im also really interested in finding out what the have in store for Jon Snow's character...mainly because there seems to be hints of his potential to be a great warrior (his great skills with a sword, and his troubles with his identity/ something to prove) then say for example he found out who his real mother was he may want to avenge her death - but how can he if he is stuck manning The Wall?

I keep thinking that they have made it pretty impossible to go anywhere decent with that character (barring a miracle) because, like Ned, he is a man of honour and he took the oath which means if were to go off on a crusade of some sort (which would be brilliant) he would be hunted down and beheaded for desertion....its a bit of a dead end, I mean, how could he get around that, he has made his choice, to stay there for life. It just seems so weird that they are hinting at all this hidden stuff that he seemingly won't be able to deal with.

Sorry if that sounds weird, I havent read the books, just rewatched the whole first season in anticipation for April 1st.

Ah if you read the books you would be pleased with how lord snow turns out, right up to his last chapter iin dwd

Tzar Chasm

I'd never considered lyanna as a candidate as snows mother, there was a bit when arya rode with the banner less men and one of them said he was snows milk brother

Gilldog

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Ah if you read the books you would be pleased with how lord snow turns out, right up to his last chapter iin dwd

Another reason for me to get the books then

stesaurus

After the first book I thought Jon's mother was

Ashara Dayne

and didn't really think there was much mystery to it.
Then after maybe the 3rd book I read a theory that it was

Lyanna

. I assumed she had been

raped by Rhaegar

and that's what led to the rebellion. However the more you find out about

Rhaegar

the less that seems possible until you start reading the books with the thought of them falling in love and wanting to be together. All the clues then start to fit and at this stage I convinced his mother is

Lyanna

and Ned is just keeping his promise.
You have to feel a bit sorry for

Robert

though. Only woman he really loved and it was unrequited.

Gauge

I enjoyed the way

Lyanna and Rhaegar's story became more and more clear as the books went on. And all signs definitely point to Lyanna being the mother- the 'bed of blood' certainly would suggest she'd given birth, the 'promise' Ned made was to raise her son (and I'm guessing, tell no one who his real parents were). Hopefully Howland Reed will show up in the next book and shed some light on it.

That said, we all know that GRRM is an enormous troll, it wouldn't surprise me

if he was deliberately steering the readers to this conclusion only to tell them SURPRISE! Jon's mother was just a random whore after all. Or, never reveal it at all. Either wouldn't shock me tbh.

Sleepy

From what we know of Robert,

he wouldn't have loved any woman who returned the feeling imho. He was all about the hunt, the chase, the fighting of the rebellion and deeply miserable when sitting the throne rather than savouring his achievement.

R + L = J is simply too foreshadowed and dodged as a question by GRRM not to be true imho!

c - 13

Hmm I was re-reading this recently and

One of the outlaws claims to be Jon's milk brother by Ashara Dayne. I had been wondering about the Lyana link up to that. They spend a lot of time enforcing that Jon looks more like Eddard than any of his other sons though - IIRC the decriptions of Lyanna are not all to similar to Eddard looks wise though ?

Sleepy

Arya is referenced to be the spitting image of Lyanna on more than one occasion.

5starpool

I'd be surprised if the speculation above wasn't true.

stevenmu

Sleepy wrote: »

Arya is referenced to be the spitting image of Lyanna on more than one occasion.

And she is mentioned as being the closest to John as well...

Sleepy

I meant it more that if Arya looks a lot like Ned's sister, it'd hardly be surprising if Lyanna's son looked like Ned.

stevenmu

Ah, that's a good point too

Dades

I'm confused... weren't we told who Jon's mother was in ADWD?

Or does nobody believe that?

stesaurus

Dades wrote: »

I'm confused... weren't we told who Jon's mother was in ADWD?

Or does nobody believe that?

Nobody believes it, plus that was just hear'say and rumour.

calex71

s.welstead wrote: »

Nobody believes it, plus that was just hear'say and rumour.

Same as Aria was told if memory serves in the 2nd or 3rd book something about a woman who

threw herself off a tower or castle wall

Dades

s.welstead wrote: »

Nobody believes it, plus that was just hear'say and rumour.

Hmm. I'd believe George would throw a curveball like that actually being true and therefore dashing all the other dramatic rumours.

Son0vagun

I have a bad feeling about

R+L=J

I believe it was GRRM intentions to orginally have R+L=J, but then all the theories started! The arrival and surival of Aegon in ADWD was a bit of a surpise. Why introduce such a big curveball so late in the ASOIAF series? Well maybe GRRM has plans for Rhaegars Heir, orginally it was going to be Jon, but then not wanting to give fans what they wanted, GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon. Therefore GRRMs intended arc for Rhaegars Heir now passes to Aegon!

stesaurus

calex71 wrote: »

Same as Aria was told if memory serves in the 2nd or 3rd book something about a woman who

threw herself off a tower or castle wall

Ashara Dayne, I think Eddard and Ashara would have married if Brandon hadn't died meaning Eddard had to marry Catelyn. Could she have conceived, given birth and then killed herself in that timeframe? Possible I guess.

Dades wrote: »

Hmm. I'd believe George would throw a curveball like that actually being true and therefore dashing all the other dramatic rumours.

He is a bit of a bollix like that!

Son0vagun wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about

R+L=J

I believe it was GRRM intentions to orginally have R+L=J, but then all the theories started! The arrival and surival of Aegon in ADWD was a bit of a surpise. Why introduce such a big curveball so late in the ASOIAF series? Well maybe GRRM has plans for Rhaegars Heir, orginally it was going to be Jon, but then not wanting to give fans what they wanted, GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon. Therefore GRRMs intended arc for Rhaegars Heir now passes to Aegon!

Anything is possible I guess, maybe he's making us now think that it's not true so that we accept other theories and then he'll turn around and reveal it was true all along. We could second guess him all day but the theory fits really well so I'll stick with it.

Pepe LeFrits

Son0vagun wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about

R+L=J

I believe it was GRRM intentions to orginally have R+L=J, but then all the theories started! The arrival and surival of Aegon in ADWD was a bit of a surpise. Why introduce such a big curveball so late in the ASOIAF series? Well maybe GRRM has plans for Rhaegars Heir, orginally it was going to be Jon, but then not wanting to give fans what they wanted, GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon. Therefore GRRMs intended arc for Rhaegars Heir now passes to Aegon!

Possible... of course, it could be a deliberate red herring that he'll expand upon to keep everyone guessing until the reveal.

Also, is it that late in the series? There'll be 2 more books at least!

Also, based on reading a little on the future books on wikipedia:

"Displeased with the provisional title A Time For Wolves for the final volume,[23] Martin ultimately announced A Dream of Spring as the title for the seventh book in 2006"

Interesting to see what the focus of the original title of the final book was...

and

"Martin is confident to have published the remaining books before the TV series overtakes him, although he told major plot points to the two main Game of Thrones producers in case he should die. (Aged 62 in 2011, Martin is by all accounts in robust health.) ... He knows the ending in broad strokes as well as the future of the main characters, which will have bittersweet elements where not everyone will live happily ever after."

It seems unlikely to me that he'd so drastically change his plans for a central character half way through. Can't say I'd rule it out of course!

Gauge

Found this page that goes into the various theories and hints, it's a good read anyway!

Tzar Chasm

Jon can't be the third dragon tho, dragons cannot be burned, jon has had his sword hand burnt fighting a wight

calex71

s.welstead wrote: »

Ashara Dayne, I think Eddard and Ashara would have married if Brandon hadn't died meaning Eddard had to marry Catelyn.

Wasn't he already married to Catelyn though at that point Wasn't was newly married and away fighting during that time?

I might be remembering the time line wrong there though.

PhlegmyMoses

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Jon can't be the third dragon tho, dragons cannot be burned, jon has had his sword hand burnt fighting a wight

Good point actually. Never thought of that.

Sleepy

Doesn't mean he can't be a dragon rider though

ADWD Spolier:

And since the next book will see Jon return from the dead (possibly as Azor Ahei?) his new body may not burn

stevenmu

calex71 wrote: »

Wasn't he already married to Catelyn though at that point Wasn't was newly married and away fighting during that time?

I might be remembering the time line wrong there though.

No, Brandon was killed first at the beginning of the war (and was I think part of the trigger for it), then Ned married Catelyn before going off to fight in it.

Sleepy

The mad king roasted Brandon Stark and his father Rickard when they rode south to confront Rhaegar Targaryen over his kidnap (elopement?) of/with Lyanna Stark. Ned's response to this was to call his banners along with his foster father John Arynn and foster-brother Robert Baratheon (to whom Lyanna was bethrothed). Ned and Catlyn married at the start of the war, with him riding off to war just after impregnating her with Robb.

All we've ever heard of Jon's age is that he was "of an age with Robb", we're not actually sure if he's older or younger, presumably there's only a few months in it either way. GRRM is apparently utterly meticulous about his timelines (hence the Meereen know and delay of ADWD so whoever Jon's mother is will have to coincide with the timeline already established. This rules out quite a few of the theorised options (including, I think, Ashara Dayne).

Tzar Chasm

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I'd never considered lyanna as a candidate as snows mother, there was a bit when arya rode with the banner less men and one of them said he was snows milk brother

I would have assumed that it would have been the bannerless man's mother who was a wet nurse for Jon which would fit in with the theory that his mother died giving birth?

WildCardDoW

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Jon can't be the third dragon tho, dragons cannot be burned, jon has had his sword hand burnt fighting a wight

Can't find the quote now but GRRM squashed that notion, the reason Dany doesn't get burned when she walks into the fire is due to the large amount of magic involved, not because she is a "dragon" and "dragon's don't burn."

Or basically, with Dany, it's a one off, she can be burned, and doesn't she suffer a burn in ADWD?

Tzar Chasm

I'll have a look later but i don't think she got burned,

Something I was thinking about, could bran or varymyr warg with a dragon

Johnny Bitte

WildCardDoW wrote: »

Can't find the quote now but GRRM squashed that notion, the reason Dany doesn't get burned when she walks into the fire is due to the large amount of magic involved, not because she is a "dragon" and "dragon's don't burn."

Or basically, with Dany, it's a one off, she can be burned, and doesn't she suffer a burn in ADWD?

She doesn't get burned by the scalding water in the bath, or the dragons egg when she picks one up from the fire!

As for Jon's mother I would assumes its

Lyanna but with GRRM whose to know, the mans a ****er for drawing us in.

Tzar Chasm

She didn't get burned in the fighting pits either

titan18

There are a bunch of Targaryens who died from burning though. Viserys and the molten gold, and in lore, there's the Tragedy of Summerhall and Aerion Targaryen who drank wildfire.

Tzar Chasm

As such we can deduce that viserys was no True Dragon.

He didn't bleed tho

titan18

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

As such we can deduce that viserys was no True Dragon.

He didn't bleed tho

What about Summerhall, Aerion Brightflame, the Dance of the Dragons War, and then the fact that Dany had her hand blistered by Drogon in ADWD when he breathed on her.

Even beside that, we have this http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

with

Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times.

WildCardDoW

Yup that's the link I was talking about, cheers titan!

I've read the books and was aware of all the other events but I knew there was a burn. My own opinion is that's it's a bit of backtracking from George by adding in that burn to keep rabid fans quiet when certain R and L connections emerge! ;-)

Savage Tyrant

I can't help thinking that if Ned wasn't Jon's true father, that he should have confided that information to Catelyn. I really resented her for her treatment and manner towards Jon. Even if he was Ned's bastàrd, it wasn't Jon's fault. I really didn't bond with the Catelyn character from the chapter Jon said goodbye to Bran.

Ambient Occlusion

For all the rounds Cersei's been doing it may well be her. :rolleyes: