Male Feminists

pickarooney

Dudess wrote: »

And calling a woman a feminazi because she defends herself and other women is really just the bottom of the barrel. And reeks of projection.

Number of uses of the word 'feminazi' in this thread: 4
Number of those made by Dudess: 2
Number of those expressing surprise the term feminazi hasn't been used: 1
Number of people who give a **** about Eric Cartman's trolling: 0

smash

jaja321 wrote: »

Well I'm sorry if you feel this way, but this is not the essence of feminism

I never said it was. Just said it happens.

Kooli wrote: »

Smash I've no interest in point-by-point dissections, and I've no interest in debating with a man who tells me what I should or shouldn't be offended by (numerous times)

So I'm telling you what to think now? I don't remember doing that.

Kooli wrote: »

For those who think that sexual objectification is 'equal opportunities', I'd welcome you to watch this video. I think it's great:

http://vimeo.com/28066212

Women's magazines show women looking like crap... or women looking amazing... Who's objectifying who here? Because men do not read these magazines.

Dudess wrote: »

And it's fair enough to express this concern but possible to do so without all the hostile "all feminists hate men" stuff.

But I never said they did.

WindSock

And the haters carry on hatin. And the replyers keep replyin.

Anyway, Bill Bailey. Great craic and a self confessed feminist. Does he have people trawl through all his shows / act to see if he says anything remotely anti woman / feminist?
Doubt it because itd be fairly pathetic i guess.
Actually, no i dont doubt it...

Dudess

donfers wrote: »

Millicent wrote: »

Right, and have you seen the names I have been called and the slurs against my character throughout the thread? I am more than capable of speaking for myself, but don't be so disingenuous as to suggest that because I'm a woman I need someone to ride to my rescue. That's the not the situation and if you think it is, read the thread again.

what names and slurs are you talking about?

anything out of order and the mods would deal with it

try to get this through your head - you do not get special treatment on here and you should not be treated differently from anybody else, if you don't like that a lot of people here disagree with your view then take your debate to tll or something

but as usual we get the backseat modding, smearing and self-pity tactics from a select few when they can't handle the fact that others disagree with their views so instead of having the debate seek to gain sympathy and discredit the opposing voice - I believe this kind of offense-seeking victimhood suggests a lack of integrity

if you can't stand the heat (and it's not even that hot) then get out of the kitchen, as proud feminists I'm sure abandoning the kitchen isn't unappealing

or


just have the debate without resorting to the crybaby tactics

Still with the pretending Millicent felt attacked only because people "disagreed with" her views. Why are you lying? And still no answer to my question: who are the radicals on this thread? That was just ONE of the insults and implications thrown at her.

Oh and I like cooking - yet I'm supporting Millicent. I know, how could that be possible seeing as all women with feminist leanings (or even who just defend themselves from male projecting) can only be man-haters who'd never do housework!!! :eek:

TheZohanS

Millicent wrote: »

Who was it aimed at then? If I have misread you, I am more than happy to apologise. But since the only claim of bullying came from Dudess in support of me, I'm not sure how else to read it.

I don't see any bullying on here, if I've missed a few posts where there was blatant bullying then I'm sorry. What I have seen is feminists rounding on anyone that critiques the feminist movement and vice versa. I suggested that to core of feminism was not "equality for all genders, and it was feminists looking after their own interests" and I had 4-5 posters jump on me, was it bullying? No, I don't think so. It was a group of posters debating away, although in my opinion they put forward a very weak argument by coming out with statements like "oh should we fight for mens rights too? You can fight your own battles etc", I'm paraphrasing there.

Now in order for any rights imbalances to be corrected you need both genders to work together, a feminist movement can do so much but you're fighting a legal establishment that is archaic and broken in this country.

Dudess

pickarooney wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

And calling a woman a feminazi because she defends herself and other women is really just the bottom of the barrel. And reeks of projection.

Number of uses of the word 'feminazi' in this thread: 4
Number of those made by Dudess: 2
Number of those expressing surprise the term feminazi hasn't been used: 1
Number of people who give a **** about Eric Cartman's trolling: 0

The word doesn't have to be used - the associated language is enough. You can see perfectly well that Millicent was backed into a corner and accused of all sorts of untrue sh1t - because the folks who were doing so were that desperate to hold a feminist, any feminist will do, as someone with a sh1t attitude towards men.

Kooli

smash wrote: »

So I'm telling you what to think now? I don't remember doing that.

What I said was that you are telling me when I shouldn't be offended. Which you did. Twice. In the post I was replying to.

I'm just baffled that men feel they can tell women what they should or shouldn't be offended by.

If there was a thread about racism, I would not go on to that thread as a white person to 'explain' to the black people that racism doesn't exist, that what they think is racism is not in fact racism, that some black people are also racist so it's not really racism, and that there's no White History Month or MOWO awards, so if you think about it white people are the real victims here and why aren't they campaigning about THAT or campaigning against affirmative action if they are that concerned about equal rights? What about HUMAN RIGHTS?!!!

I would like to think I would have the humility to recognise that being white I am afforded certain priviliges in society that I am not even aware of, and that society is built around me at the centre and every other race as 'other'. And I might recognise that it is impossible for me to know what it is like to be black in a society where being white is more highly valued, and for that reason I might actually want to listen to the person telling me what it's like.

EVEN IF I DID NOT BELIEVE AT FIRST THAT RACISM EXISTS! I would recognise that I am, perhaps, not the authority on that!

Bannasidhe

donfers wrote: »

what names and slurs are you talking about?

anything out of order and the mods would deal with it

try to get this through your head - you do not get special treatment on here and you should not be treated differently from anybody else, if you don't like that a lot of people here disagree with your view then take your debate to tll or something

but as usual we get the backseat modding, smearing and self-pity tactics from a select few when they can't handle the fact that others disagree with their views so instead of having the debate seek to gain sympathy and discredit the opposing voice - I believe this kind of offense-seeking victimhood suggests a lack of integrity

if you can't stand the heat (and it's not even that hot) then get out of the kitchen, as proud feminists I'm sure abandoning the kitchen isn't unappealing

or


just have the debate without resorting to the crybaby tactics

Indeed - you should not be treated differently from anybody else so let's look at who is making personal comments at whom shall we?

Are both sides of the debate engaging in mudslinging or is it a case where one side is attacking posters on the other side of the debate?

There have been accusations of people having been castrated, or being subjected to pseudo-psychobabble of an insulting nature, or being called man-haters - all of this has come from anti-feminists. Not one personal insult or instance of trolling has been written by anyone who identifies as feminist. Funny that.

You yourself had to get the dig in about kitchens...

Seems like its OK for one side to engage in smearing tactics and when challenged they complain about 'crybaby' tactics.

Resorting to personal insults and smear tactic is the last resort of those who cannot construct a coherent argument to support their viewpoint. Read back over the thread and it is obvious which side this is.

johnr1

Dudess wrote: »

What stuff said against men though? The only anger towards a handful of male posters on this thread is as a result of provocation.

I didn't say there was anger directed at both sides. I said some posts on both sides made me angry.

The insults and abuse hurled at some on the feminist side did.

Also, some on the feminist side have dismissed and misrepresented anyone who disagrees with them. This did too.

The constant trotting out of this "male privilege" phrase intensely annoys me because I just don't buy that it exists to any perceivable extent in Ireland 2012.


The central difference of opinion appears to me to be around what the goals of feminism are. The stated goals of feminism have been linked and posted already.
The problem seems to me to be that SOME women who identify as feminists have quite different goals, and they use the feminist brand as their umbrella.
This angers men, as it should real feminists.
Some of these men are unable to differentiate between the two kinds of feminist and launch all out attacks on the whole ideology. This is also wrong.

Ultimately I think the thread is full of people misunderstanding each other and misrepresenting each other's viewpoints, and just hardens misguided belief systems.

Now , I've been drawn into it, even though I didn't want to be. Couldn't you just have removed your 'thanks' and left it at that......

Eve_Dublin

TheZohan wrote: »

I've just decided to become a feminist, now if anyone disagrees with my opinion in future you're bullying me.

No, the bullying comes in when you're labelled ugly, fat. bitter, frigid, "a lesbian" as if being one is synonymous with hating men, a man-hater....not simply for being a feminist. People are entitled to their opinion but they're not entitled to get personal. THIS is bullying and you know it is ffs.

smash

Kooli wrote: »

Smash I've no interest in point-by-point dissections, and I've no interest in debating with a man who tells me what I should or shouldn't be offended by (numerous times)

To be 100% honest here, I've read this a few times now and to say it's pissed me off is an understatement. I'm not sexist, I expressed an opinion and it was shot down and turned around on me because I'm a male. I was not telling you what should and shouldn't offend you, yet you're telling everyone else what should and shouldn't offend them.

If I was female with my viewpoints you would have just said "we'll agree to disagree" but because I'm not, you've made me look like a woman hater and to be honest you've made yourself look like a man hater. Exactly what your cause doesn't want to come across like!

Like I said only a few minutes ago, it appears that men should have no opinion on feminism matters.

Kooli wrote: »

What I said was that you are telling me when I shouldn't be offended. Which you did. Twice. In the post I was replying to.

I'm just baffled that men feel they can tell women what they should or shouldn't be offended by.

There you go again. Being a woman is nothing to do with it. If you're offended, then you're offended. Others aren't. Who cares what sex you are?

TheZohanS

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

No, the bullying comes in when you're labelled ugly, fat. bitter, frigid, "a lesbian" as if being one is synonymous with hating men, a man-hater....not simply for being a feminist. People are entitled to their opinion but they're not entitled to get personal. THIS is bullying and you know it is ffs.

Woah there, who came out with that? I honestly have not seen any of that in this thread, admittedly I have not read every post.

Zulu

Dudess wrote: »

Such as?

Such as...

If I say that looks like deeper issues, I'm only speculating, not stating it as fact, but I have good grounds to suspect it. Guys who are happy in themselves and when it comes to women don't resort to such odious sh1t.

So if someone dares to oppose your view point vis "feminism" are resorting to "such odious sh1t"?

Well I'm opposing your view point. So tell me, for clarities sake, am I resorting to such "odious sh1t"?

If not me, who is?

Dudess

Sigh. Zulu, you're an intelligent guy. Could you please try to refrain from resorting to the utter fallacy that is "You're only being defensive because I disagree with you". It has been explained - ad nauseum - that the problem is not with the "disagreeing" (it's such a lazy claim) but with the way it is done, and what is resorted to.
And I explicitly stated my view that there is projecting going on is not a fact, but something I suspect - and I stand by it.

TheZohan wrote: »

Millicent wrote: »

Who was it aimed at then? If I have misread you, I am more than happy to apologise. But since the only claim of bullying came from Dudess in support of me, I'm not sure how else to read it.

I don't see any bullying on here, if I've missed a few posts where there was blatant bullying then I'm sorry. What I have seen is feminists rounding on anyone that critiques the feminist movement and vice versa. I suggested that to core of feminism was not "equality for all genders, and it was feminists looking after their own interests" and I had 4-5 posters jump on me, was it bullying? No, I don't think so. It was a group of posters debating away, although in my opinion they put forward a very weak argument by coming out with statements like "oh should we fight for mens rights too? You can fight your own battles etc", I'm paraphrasing there.

Now in order for any rights imbalances to be corrected you need both genders to work together, a feminist movement can do so much but you're fighting a legal establishment that is archaic and broken in this country.

Where are women (I'm not a feminist) attacking people merely for their criticism of the movement? The vast majority of criticism of feminism is hostile towards even reasonable feminists, poorly thought out, full of ignorance (very little understanding or knowledge of the movement displayed), resorting to stereotypes, veiled insults, lacking in support... THAT'S what's causing the defensivesness, not mere disagreement with feminist ideology. If someone put forward a reasonable argument outlining their issues with it, great - bring it on. But it rarely happens, cheap-shots are so much more fun. And the loudest ones are from people who just look as if they're venting due to personal experiences.

Millicent

TheZohan wrote: »

I don't see any bullying on here, if I've missed a few posts where there was blatant bullying then I'm sorry. What I have seen is feminists rounding on anyone that critiques the feminist movement and vice versa. I suggested that to core of feminism was not "equality for all genders, and it was feminists looking after their own interests" and I had 4-5 posters jump on me, was it bullying? No, I don't think so. It was a group of posters debating away, although in my opinion they put forward a very weak argument by coming out with statements like "oh should we fight for mens rights too? You can fight your own battles etc", I'm paraphrasing there.

Now in order for any rights imbalances to be corrected you need both genders to work together, a feminist movement can do so much but you're fighting a legal establishment that is archaic and broken in this country.

`
I have been called a chauvinist, a hypocrite, a radical, a crybaby, told I am suffering from a persecution complex, told I don't understand an ideology I have studied in university from someone who can't seem to get the basic definition right despite it being pointed out, told that I am different to men and more inclined towards cleaning because of how my brain is formed, and told I have a lack of integrity for daring to feel offended by any of it

Do you really think those sorts of responses are appropriate or designed to be anything less than, at the least, dismissive?

Kooli

smash wrote: »

To be 100% honest here, I've read this a few times now and to say it's pissed me off is an understatement. I'm not sexist, I expressed an opinion and it was shot down and turned around on me because I'm a male. I was not telling you what should and shouldn't offend you, yet you're telling everyone else what should and shouldn't offend them.

If I was female with my viewpoints you would have just said "we'll agree to disagree" but because I'm not, you've made me look like a woman hater and to be honest you've made yourself look like a man hater. Exactly what your cause doesn't want to come across like!

Like I said only a few minutes ago, it appears that men should have no opinion on feminism matters.


There you go again. Being a woman is nothing to do with it. If you're offended, then you're offended. Others aren't. Who cares what sex you are?

I don't dismiss your opinions in general because your a man. What I don't like is a being told by a man what I should not be offended by when it comes to sexism.
To use the racism analogy again, if a black person talked about the existence of racism and the promotion of rights for black people, and someone came along and said that racism doesn't exist and they shouldn't be offended, it does make a difference if the person that said that is white!!

You say that you weren't telling me what I should and shouldn't be offended by, but YOU WERE!! Twice!!! You said 'women shouldn't be offended'. Stop telling me what I shouldn't be offended by!!

And no, I have not told you what you should be offended by.

TheZohanS

Millicent wrote: »

`
I have been called a chauvinist, a hypocrite, a radical, a crybaby, told I am suffering from a persecution complex, told I don't understand an ideology I have studied in university from someone who can't see to get the basic definition right despite it being pointed out, told that I am different to men and more inclined towards cleaning because of how my brain is formed, and told I have a lack of integrity for daring to feel offended by any of it

All of that in this thread?

(I can safely say that having shared several houses with women that you're(plural) not inclined towards cleaning!)

Lady Chuckles

I seriously don't understand why some are so aggressive towards feminism/feminists. Why is it a big deal that feminists fight for women's rights? Could one pressume these aggressive posters don't want women to have rights?

It makes very little sense not wanting people to have rights, if you ask me. (women are people too, in case you missed out on that bit )
That's why I'm puzzled when I read some of the hostile remarks about feminists. Why does it bother some that women fight for their rights?

Instead of spending time hating, why don't you start up your own movement to fight for fathers' rights? It's a great cause - and I'd think a lot of women would want to support such a thing as well

smash

Kooli wrote: »

I don't dismiss your opinions in general because your a man. What I don't like is a being told by a man what I should not be offended by when it comes to sexism.

Everyone is entitled to feel offended, if they are offended. But you have no right tell others they should be offended by what offends you. I made points stating that it's all subjective and if you're offended, then it's to do with you but it works both ways.

Kooli wrote: »

To use the racism analogy again, if a black person talked about the existence of racism and the promotion of rights for black people, and someone came along and said that racism doesn't exist and they shouldn't be offended, it does make a difference if the person that said that is white!!

Like how women's magazine objectify women... or how rappers call each other nígger... Who's objectifying who the most? Themselves! And that's a valid opinion that should be considered no matter what sex or race you are.

Kooli wrote: »

You say that you weren't telling me what I should and shouldn't be offended by, but YOU WERE!! Twice!!! You said 'women shouldn't be offended'. Stop telling me what I shouldn't be offended by!!

Bla bla... read above

Kooli wrote: »

And no, I have not told you what you should be offended by.

No, you've told other women what they should be offended by.

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

I seriously don't understand why some are so aggressive towards feminism/feminists. Why is it a big deal that feminists fight for women's rights? Could one pressume these aggressive posters don't want women to have rights?

That's a very dangerous and untrue presumption.

Millicent

TheZohan wrote: »

All of that in this thread?

(I can safely say that having shared several houses with women that you're(plural) not inclined towards cleaning!)

All of that just in this thread. I haven't brought insults from other threads into the mix. I'd be here all day. :pac:

And yeah, I lol'ed at that. Out of me and my boyfriend, he's the one hoovering under me because he is the tidy one.

pickarooney

Total number of uses of "man-hater" in this thread: 11
Total number of uses of "man-hater" in this thread by Dudess: 7
Total number of uses of "man-hater" in this thread by other female posters: 3

Now, arsey as that may seem, I'm not trying to pick on anyone but this practice of making things up and then pretending other people said them really needs to stop.

--Kaiser--

Millicent wrote: »

`
I have been called a chauvinist, a hypocrite, a radical, a crybaby, told I am suffering from a persecution complex, told I don't understand an ideology I have studied in university from someone who can't see to get the basic definition right despite it being pointed out, told that I am different to men and more inclined towards cleaning because of how my brain is formed, and told I have a lack of integrity for daring to feel offended by any of it

Do you really think those sorts of responses are appropriate or designed to be anything less than, at the least, dismissive?

You were called a crybaby because you accused other people arguing against you of 'bullying' this is a pathetic argumentative fallacy (appeal to pity). This bit in bold is clearly an argument to authority, just because you studied something in college means you are always right, nor does it mean you automatcally know more than someone else on the subject.

How about trying some cogent arguments to defend your views?

Eve_Dublin

TheZohan wrote: »

Woah there, who came out with that? I honestly have not seen any of that in this thread, admittedly I have not read every post.

I used these examples. I've been called all of these in similar discussion many, many times. That's the point I was making. The man-hating comment was implied many times on this thread.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

I have been keeping a close eye on this and would deem there to be no bully. If any poster can report posts that may be bullying please do so. Otherwise drop it please.

I do however see aggressive and flaming posts on both sides of the debate. Please read what you post and think about it before you reply.

We do not want to stifle open debate. Please report any suspect posts.

TheZohanS

Dudess wrote: »

Sigh. Zulu, you're an intelligent guy. Could you please try to refrain from resorting to the utter fallacy that is "You're only being defensive because I disagree with you". It has been explained - ad nauseum - that the problem is not with the "disagreeing" (it's such a lazy claim) but with the way it is done, and what is resorted to.
And I explicitly stated my view that there is projecting going on is not a fact, but something I suspect - and I stand by it.

Now you're being dismissive of zulu.

Where are women (I'm not a feminist) attacking people merely for their criticism of the movement? The vast majority of criticism of feminism is hostile towards even reasonable feminists, poorly thought out, full of ignorance (very little understanding or knowledge of the movement displayed) resorting to stereotypes, veiled insults, llacking in support... THAT'S what's causing the defensivesness, not mere disagreement with feminist ideology. If someone put forward a reasonable argument outlining their issues with it, great - bring it on. But it rarely happens, cheap-shots are so much more fun. And the loudest ones are from people who just look as if they're venting due to personal experiences.

Where posters have stated that the feminist movement is not looking for equality for all genders and that it was looking out for the rights of women only. It was a reasonable argument and it was dismissed and ridiculed.

Dudess

johnr1 wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

What stuff said against men though? The only anger towards a handful of male posters on this thread is as a result of provocation.

I didn't say there was anger directed at both sides. I said some posts on both sides made me angry.

The insults and abuse hurled at some on the feminist side did.

Also, some on the feminist side have dismissed and misrepresented anyone who disagrees with them. This did too.

The constant trotting out of this "male privilege" phrase intensely annoys me because I just don't buy that it exists to any perceivable extent in Ireland 2012.


The central difference of opinion appears to me to be around what the goals of feminism are. The stated goals of feminism have been linked and posted already.
The problem seems to me to be that SOME women who identify as feminists have quite different goals, and they use the feminist brand as their umbrella.
This angers men, as it should real feminists.
Some of these men are unable to differentiate between the two kinds of feminist and launch all out attacks on the whole ideology. This is also wrong.

Ultimately I think the thread is full of people misunderstanding each other and misrepresenting each other's viewpoints, and just hardens misguided belief systems.

Now , I've been drawn into it, even though I didn't want to be. Couldn't you just have removed your 'thanks' and left it at that......

And as you say, some men - and women - choose to pretend all feminists subscribe to the looniness. And will stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to reasoned arguments as to how this is not true - hence defensiveness from I and others, which then results in "man-hater" sh1t. It's obnoxious - and the mods do **** all.

Kooli

smash wrote: »

Other men don't find this offensive so women shouldn't either.


the woman in the ad obviously doesn't care if she's objectified so other people shouldn't care either.

.

OK, I hate having to do the quote and nit-pick thing, but you repeatedly say you HAVEN'T told women what they should or shouldn't care about or be offended about.

There. You did. Twice.

Now if you like, you can quote me where I said that other people should be offended by certain things. Or we can just discuss without the nitpicking back and forth and the desperate attempts to discredit each other or find inconsistencies or contradictions.

I see now that you do think it's OK for people in privileged groups to 'explain' to those who complain about discrimination and oppression that they are wrong, whether that be white people explaining to black people, or men explaining to women.

Millicent

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You were called a crybaby because you accused other people arguing against you of 'bullying' this is a pathetic argumentative fallacy (appeal to pity). This bit in bold is clearly an argument to authority, just because you studied something in college means you are always right, nor does it mean you automatcally know more than someone else on the subject.

How about trying some cogent arguments to defend your views?

I have made plenty, thanks. If anyone had have asked me for my reasoning on my viewpoints, I would be happy to have done so. Instead what has happened is, we have had 40 pages of people saying there's no need for feminism and others arguing that yes there is. That's not a discussion.

And this:

This bit in bold is clearly an argument to authority, just because you studied something in college means you are always right, nor does it mean you automatcally know more than someone else on the subject.

kind of does, especially when that same poster says they don't care enough about men's rights issues to do anything about them.

And what about the other insults? Whatever about the crybaby part, is it convenient to ignore the other names?

Millicent

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Mod

I have been keeping a close eye on this and would deem there to be no bully. If any poster can report posts that may be bullying please do so. Otherwise drop it please.

I do however see aggressive and flaming posts on both sides of the debate. Please read what you post and think about it before you reply.

We do not want to stifle open debate. Please report any suspect posts.

Micky, I'm genuinely not trying to argue with you, but surely you can see plenty of posts that contravene the "Don't be a dick" part of the charter?

--Kaiser--

Millicent wrote: »

Micky, I'm genuinely not trying to argue with you, but surely you can see plenty of posts that contravene the "Don't be a dick" part of the charter?

That would be the the comment

I do however see aggressive and flaming posts on both sides of the debate