Are the majority of drummers technophobes?

raindog.promo

I'm a bit puzzled on this one. I would have thought drumming and drum programming on music programs would compliment each other due to the nature of rhythm being fairly straight forward /mathmatical.

Yet most of the drummers I know are almost in fear of computers and want nothing to do with them, even the mention of a click track sends them into wild highly passable imitations of Animal of "The Muppets" fame.

Anyone here a drummer and into music programming on computer programs?
How do you find it?

Any drummers who are against programming, can you say why?

Is it a fear of having to learn to read music (the rhythm part anyway) which may lead to a samey/too clinical drum technique?

rcaz

A lot of people start learning drums with the idea that their job will always be to 'keep time' or whatever, having everyone else playing to them, which works great a lot of the time. I think a lot of drummers have a hard time getting passed the idea of having a computer keep time playing to that.

I'm a drummer but I got into programming and other instruments before I started playing drums so I dunno if my opinion is the one you're looking for. A human will never be able to keep time perfectly, a computer can do it perfectly every time and never get tired. And 'keeping time' is a pretty mundane task isn't it? Why not let the computer keep time so that I can concentrate on more creative things?

It doesn't suit a lot of music though - the 'feel' or 'groove' or whatever of a live drummer is, I reckon, a lot of the time down to human error - each hit of the hi-hat in a backbeat won't be exactly the same distance apart each time. Little rit.s and rubatos that a computer can't do very efficiently or convincingly can make a beat or a hook.

I also think a lot of musicians think of themselves way too much as someone who plays an instrument instead of someone who creates music. "I'm a drummer" or "I play guitar" can be a bit restrictive. I saw a great video of a masterclass with bassist Victor Wooten who made a really good point, along the lines of "I'm an English speaker, not a mouth talker", and compared that to being a musician rather than a bass player. Spot on. So er, my point is, everyone should learn how to use absolutely everything there is in the world to make music :pac:

raindog.promo

Nice post. I'm in agreement with ye. USe a computer as another means of making noise. I'm starting to use loops in my setup now so little by little, click tracks are becoming more and more prominant. It's no problem for me, I've been using one for years because of working with loop pedals and I've been adding guitar to programmed stuff on computer since my teens.

Now that I think of it, quite a lot of musicians i know regardless of their preferred instrument steer clear of computers as much as possible. Personally, I love the things it allows you to do, but maybe because i've done sound engineering I'm looking at it through an engineeers eyes.

I've a new year resolution to learn the drums this year and get good at drum) programming too. So both at the same time. I use reason for programming and I have a V-drum kit set up and ready to go. My plans right now are so busy that I can't start just yet but looking forward to it.

I don't think there's any particular secret to it, ust play until you get so familiar to a few rhythms that you can start experimenting with them, and know the dynamic effect the drums has on a tune, for example hi hat during the verse and ride during chorus gives a restrained vibe for the verse and unleashed feeling for the chorus.

Am i on a good path here?

franciebellew

Void main()
{
While (toop !1)
{
Drum();
}
}

rcaz

raindog.promo wrote: »

I don't think there's any particular secret to it, ust play until you get so familiar to a few rhythms that you can start experimenting with them, and know the dynamic effect the drums has on a tune, for example hi hat during the verse and ride during chorus gives a restrained vibe for the verse and unleashed feeling for the chorus.

Am i on a good path here?

Well, yeah, but you sound like you're thinking like a drummer :pac:

That's the kind of stuff that rock drums have done for decades. Why not change it? Sure, it's important to be able to play in standard idioms like that, but there's so much other stuff to do. The two biggest things I've ever learned about on drums were polyrhythms (not at all drum-specific, I just learn them on drums before anything else) and rudiments (pretty drum-specific but you can apply the thinking to anything else).

A good exercise I did was only playing with a hi hat, snare drum and bass drum for a few weeks. When you have a load of drums around you it's easy to start playing the few things you know on the plenty of drums you have. But if you only have three things to hit you're gonna have to exercise your brain a little more to get a full sound. Stuff like, instead of hitting the hi hat on every eighth note, hit it more erratically, so that when you do start hitting it all the time, that's a significant change that'll stand out....

raindog.promo

Crawl before you run and all that. Then fly. \m/

rcaz

raindog.promo wrote: »

Crawl before you run and all that. Then fly. \m/

Yeah that's true. But I always thought it'd be really cool to take someone with lots of musical knowledge but no technical knowledge of a particular instrument, and throw them in the deep end. Results could be really cool. Just force someone to write something on an instrument they have no knowledge of.

raindog.promo

Check out some Krautrock. Kraftwerk and all them. Professionally trained (I think) musicians who then turned around and started using synths instead. Building the things. In interviews they were saying they've no idea what they're doing, just turning dials til they have something they like the sound of. And they can never reproduce the same sound twice

I think it's a BBC doc called The Birth of Krautrock.

rcaz

raindog.promo wrote: »

Check out some Krautrock. Kraftwerk and all them. Professionally trained (I think) musicians who then turned around and started using synths instead. Building the things. In interviews they were saying they've no idea what they're doing, just turning dials til they have something they like the sound of. And they can never reproduce the same sound twice

I think it's a BBC doc called The Birth of Krautrock.

Oh yeah, sure! Big fan of Kraftwerk CAN and Neu!, never really thought of it that way. Cool.

raindog.promo

I think the Pogues went from playing guitars to trad instruments without knowing how to play the trad instruments also.

Just to meander somewhere back on course though, would the majority of drummers you know use computer music programs, if you incorporate a V drum kit into your acoustic drum kit then you can set up triggered samples and all sorts of fun. I think that might be dismissed though because once the word "sample" is heard, the words "click track" aren't far behind. Or maybe it's just a big enough pain in the arse transporting the kit that you don't want anything else to have to deal with.

markthedrum1

I'm a drummer and I'm into my computers and all that and even used Reason's drum machine to create polyrhythms so I could learn that. I also spent time learning odd time signatures and all that.

Ya go to the studio and because of the technology, drums have taken back foot to what they used to do. As polyrhythms were mentioned earlier, I'd like to mention too great songs that incorporate a polyrhythm within the beat, Alannah Myles' Black Velvet and Tears For Fears Everybody Wants To Rule The World.

On each it's in a 6/8 and the drummer plays a straight 4/4 hi hat above the 6/8 groove. To walk into a studio now you'd be told to play straight, most times now the drummer is not needed, drum machines are programmed and the drummers goes and learns what was done in studio for the live. The art of drumming is slowly dying because of this, thankfully not in metal though, but it will get there too.

It used to be, a great drummer is solid but can phrase with the band, now it's play the simplest beat possible for 2hours and deviate and you may hit the crash cymbal 3 times in a song.

raindog.promo

markthedrum1 wrote: »

It used to be, a great drummer is solid but can phrase with the band, now it's play the simplest beat possible for 2hours and deviate and you may hit the crash cymbal 3 times in a song.

Who's causing this to happen? Are you talking about session drumming?

Dr. Loon

Almost this entire thread is bóllox. It's like asking "Are the majority of Irish alcoholics?" Silly.

The art of drumming is also not dying. Any drummer that takes his "art" seriously, should be praticing rudiments to a metronome regulary... that's the click piece out of the way. Some drummers prefer an entirely acoustic kit, some like triggers and pads and samples and so on. I mean Jaysus lads, talk about generalising.

This talk of drums taking a back foot to technology is also bóllox. Computers cannot replicate the human element, and yes, the human element is down to mistakes... most drummers don't have perfect timing, but that's often what makes a song dynamic. e.g. some drummers play behind the beat, some ahead, some right on.

So no, most drummers aren't against programming and/or clicks, but some are. They're more than likely gonna be old school dudes, and there's nothing wrong with that either. In my opinion, as a musician you should use everything available to you to enhance your sound.

Muppetini

Hi All,
I'm a keyboard player who uses Mac/Logic/Mainstage so I'm coming at this a little differently. I had to learn how to use music tech from scratch. It's a very important skill for modern music and a crucial skill for drummers. Click tracks are part and parcel of live music now so get used to it! It's just another tool in your box not the apocalypse. Most bands now use tech in some form or another live. I've spoken to some drummers who say clicks have made them better drummers and they also said that drummers who resist clicks aren't that good anyway! Controversial I know but it really shouldn't be a big deal, after all we all want to be better,don't we?

raindog.promo

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Almost this entire thread is bóllox.
It's like asking "Are the majority of Irish alcoholics?" Silly.

The art of drumming is also not dying. Any drummer that takes his "art" seriously, should be praticing rudiments to a metronome regulary... that's the click piece out of the way. Some drummers prefer an entirely acoustic kit, some like triggers and pads and samples and so on. I mean Jaysus lads, talk about generalising.

This talk of drums taking a back foot to technology is also bóllox. Computers cannot replicate the human element, and yes, the human element is down to mistakes... most drummers don't have perfect timing, but that's often what makes a song dynamic. e.g. some drummers play behind the beat, some ahead, some right on.

So no, most drummers aren't against programming and/or clicks, but some are. They're more than likely gonna be old school dudes, and there's nothing wrong with that either. In my opinion, as a musician you should use everything available to you to enhance your sound.

Well thanks for putting everyone straight. Although everyone on the thread is speaking from their own experience it's nice to know that they're living in some fantasy world.

Dr. Loon

raindog.promo wrote: »

Well thanks for putting everyone straight. Although everyone on the thread is speaking from their own experience it's nice to know that they're living in some fantasy world.

No problem.

raindog.promo

Dr. Loon wrote: »

No problem.

So how many drummers do you know gigging locally that have drum programming incorporated into their set?

Dr. Loon

raindog.promo wrote: »

So how many drummers do you know gigging locally that have drum programming incorporated into their set?

Two. That use electronic elements. I personally just use a perc-pad for claps and clicks and other additional sounds. I think that these days you'll also find most drummers will have an electronic kit for practice purposes, and as I said, IMO, any drummer worth their salt will be practicing along to a metronome. Even still, I don't think electronics will ever over take the acoustic kit, but should be used in conjunction with.

Also, in honesty, I was one of those old school drummers that disagreed with click tracks and electronics, but I was young when I held that opinion. I've now copped on.

There are other statements in this thread, such as "keeping time is a pretty mundane task" which are nonsense. Keeping time is a drummers bread and butter, and a drummer that can sit and play a simple groove perfectly is a valuable asset. Hence the need for metronome practice. If you can't sit in a groove, you're a shít drummer. The difference between a top notch drummer and a computers timing would be miniscule, or should be. If you intend to learn the drums, 2 pieces of advice I have... 1) practice rudiments to a metronome and 2) start slow and practice control before speed.

raindog.promo

I said most drummers I know don't use drum programming and would most drummers out there use them or not (perhaps I should have stated locally, but as this is pretty much a local/amateur musician forum and we're speaking of our own experiences, I took that as being assumed). You've come along saying everything everyone else says is bollox then say you know 2 drummers that use drum programming.

Which would suggest that the majority do not.

Interestingly, those on this thread that say they do use programming have come to drumming after first writing music with music program software. This throws up a few other questions about the role of drummers in the future.

Hardly bollox.

Dr. Loon

Well, I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't match what you wanted to hear, but there ya go! I should have said 100% of the drummers I know use electronic elements. I only know 2 drummers personally and directly, this is the question you asked me.

However, judging by the drummers forums I use, I would say an awful lot of drummers are using electronic elements in their drumming. Just have a browse of drummerworld or other similar forums and you'll see what I mean.

Also, I said "Almost" this entire thread is bóllox. Almost is different to "everything" I'm sure you'll appreciate.

Here's a list of things stated which are bóllox and why;
1) 'keeping time' is a pretty mundane task isn't it? - I've already explained my reason for thinking this is nonsense. This is the most stupid statement on the thread, and from a drummer! Have a look at this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PHL0xSlqM0 Any professional drummer you care to think of will hold the same opinion as me here, I'm positive on this. I mean, keeping time is the basis of music FFS!
2) Stuff like, instead of hitting the hi hat on every eighth note, hit it more erratically, so that when you do start hitting it all the time, that's a significant change that'll stand out.. - I don't know what exactly this means, but hitting beats "erratically" is going to get you nowhere. There's a place for every beat.
3) once the word "sample" is heard, the words "click track" aren't far behind - Why would this be the case?
4) Ya go to the studio and because of the technology, drums have taken back foot to what they used to do - If this were the case, there would be no live or sessions drummers around, and I think you'll find this is not the case.
5) To walk into a studio now you'd be told to play straight, most times now the drummer is not needed, drum machines are programmed and the drummers goes and learns what was done in studio for the live - I have never actually heard of this, I'm sure it happens, but most times? I don't think so. I've been playing 15 years, and not once heard of this.
6) It used to be, a great drummer is solid but can phrase with the band, now it's play the simplest beat possible for 2hours and deviate and you may hit the crash cymbal 3 times in a song. - Nonsense. Serve the song is the rule. That's it. There are many different styles of music, some require the drummer to play a straight consistent groove, others allow the drummer more freedom.

This is all of course just my opinion. You don't like it, then you can just incorporate the opinion of others - that match your opinion - to reinforce your own opinion. That seems to be how you want to roll. Confirmation bias?

Also, the thing about drummers not being musicians, is another generalisation. We all know the drummer jokes. The fact of the matter is, you don't have to learn to play to a click, but you're better off if you can. You don't have to learn how to program, but it's probably worthwhile. Also, you don't have to be a tech geek to start programming drums, but you must absolutely have rhythm - or at least the willingness to learn good timing - to start playing the drums. In other words, the jump from drummer to programmer is a small one, the jump from programmer to drummer, is quite a large jump. In my opinion remember.

raindog.promo

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Well, I'm sorry if my opinion doesn't match what you wanted to hear, but there ya go!

I wanted to hear opinions. However ones that begin with "Almost this entire thread is bóllox" don't interest me, true. They tend to colour everything else that follows. A peculiar bias.

Discussion involving different people's opinions instead of someone that obviously knows better than everyone else. But sure why am I even writing this as you know exactly how I and everyone else rolls.

Dr. Loon

raindog.promo wrote: »

I wanted to hear opinions. However ones that begin with "Almost this entire thread is bóllox" don't interest me, true. They tend to colour everything else that follows. A peculiar bias.

Yeah, this is why I'm accusing you of confirmation bias. You don't get the opinion you want, so you don't listen.

Discussion involving different people's opinions instead of someone that obviously knows better than everyone else. But sure why am I even writing this as you know exactly how I and everyone else rolls.

My last post qualifies the "almost the entire" thread statement. I've broken down the points I think are nonsense, and why. You - or anyone else - have failed to provide a solid counter. The premise of the thread is however, bóllox. It's just a generalisation, which as you should know, are most usually inaccurate. Alcoholic Irish, snooty English, arrogant French, loud Americans, and dumb drummers who freak out when presented with a click track - all generalisations. So yes, the premise of the thread is indeed bóllox. Or do you think one generalisation holds more water over another? Do you think if I posted a thread over in soccer, saying "Are the majority of soccer players racist?" that it would last long or I'd get level headed responses? I'd be laughed out of the place and told I'm an idiot. You should try and post this thread in a drumming forum and see what happens.

I don't know where I said I know better than anyone else though. But, you're inability to provide reasoned counter arguments to my reasoned ones is where I'm getting the idea that you're only interested in a specific opinion.

In order to prevent you mis-interpreting my posts again, here's the summary....
1) The premise of the thread is bóllox. I've explained why above.
2) I believe musicians should use everything at their disposal to enhance their sound.
3) I believe a drummer should be capable of playing to a click. In fact, I think it's one of the first things a young drummer should focus on. I wish I had done this when I started.
4) I do not believe the art of drumming is dead. I actually think computers/programming can never replace real musicians, but should definitely be used to enrich music.
5) I most definitely do not know everything, and consider myself to be at a very, very early stage of development in my drumming. I've been playing around 15 years, and I don't consider myself to be a great drummer. Good, but not great.

raindog.promo

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Yeah, this is why I'm accusing you of confirmation bias. You don't get the opinion you want, so you don't listen.

You dismissed the majority of everyone else's posts as bollox. Therefore your opinion doesn't interest me. That's my opinion. I didn't bother reading the rest of your points.

Dr. Loon

raindog.promo wrote: »

You dismissed the majority of everyone else's posts as bollox. Therefore your opinion doesn't interest me. That's my opinion. I didn't bother reading the rest of your points.

That's a pity, as I've justified my statement since. Your self-imposed ignorance simply confirms my point on confirmation bias. I was right. Hear something you don't like, so ignore it. A massive failure in reasoned thought. Good luck with that.

raindog.promo

Dr. Loon wrote: »

I was right.

Aren't you always.

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Good luck with that.

Thanks.

irishthump

Dr. Loon wrote: »

This talk of drums taking a back foot to technology is also bóllox. Computers cannot replicate the human element, and yes, the human element is down to mistakes... most drummers don't have perfect timing, but that's often what makes a song dynamic. e.g. some drummers play behind the beat, some ahead, some right on.

Hmmm....

A common misconception is that playing ahead or behind the beat is the result of having "bad timing". A good drummer will be able to play ahead or behind as he sees fit, that is what gives a groove it's feel. That's the human element you're talking about, it has nothing to do with "mistakes".

Dr. Loon

irishthump wrote: »

Hmmm....

A common misconception is that playing ahead or behind the beat is the result of having "bad timing". A good drummer will be able to play ahead or behind as he sees fit, that is what gives a groove it's feel. That's the human element you're talking about, it has nothing to do with "mistakes".

Indeed. I shouldn't have used the word mistake. The point is of course, that the computer - in my opinion - can't replicate this human element. I'm all for electronics, however I can't see acoustic - human - drumming dying.

rcaz

I'll reply to the ones I'm responsible for...

Dr. Loon wrote: »

1) 'keeping time' is a pretty mundane task isn't it? - I've already explained my reason for thinking this is nonsense. This is the most stupid statement on the thread, and from a drummer! Have a look at this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PHL0xSlqM0 Any professional drummer you care to think of will hold the same opinion as me here, I'm positive on this. I mean, keeping time is the basis of music FFS!

Keeping time is the basis of some music. There's lots of music that doesn't use any strict meter or rhythm. And do you not think keeping time is boring? I'd much rather use all my mental power on getting interesting patterns together and accenting them all perfectly and other stuff rather than just counting. So why not let a machine do the counting for me while I focus on all the other bits? Unless of course I'm playing the kind of music that doesn't rely on strict time being kept.

Dr. Loon wrote: »

2) Stuff like, instead of hitting the hi hat on every eighth note, hit it more erratically, so that when you do start hitting it all the time, that's a significant change that'll stand out.. - I don't know what exactly this means, but hitting beats "erratically" is going to get you nowhere. There's a place for every beat.

If you don't know exactly what I'm getting at hear, why did you point it out? I didn't say hit anything 'erratically', I said to hit things 'more erratically', as in, erratically with respect to a straight quaver pattern. Maybe it means every few beats is actually a dotted demisemiquaver, or you're playing one note and two rests of a triplet pattern intermittently between other 'straight' notes, something that thwarts the 'straight' feel of a pattern. Yes there is a place for every beat, including all the truly erratic and random ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS4hhjbZk9c

The thing I don't really get about your arguments is in;

Dr. Loon wrote: »

This is the most stupid statement on the thread, and from a drummer!

you're acknowledging I'm a drummer and then saying I'm wrong about things I've learned from experience... I'm not making this stuff up, I've learned it through five years of drumming and around ten years of other musical practice and work... I don't get how I can say the 'most stupid thing on the thread' when it's been working perfectly well for me for years.

raindog.promo

The thing I don't really get about your arguments is...

Proving you just have confirmation bias.
Pffft, do ye know nothing?

*Incidentally, I don't think keeping time is boring. And quite hard to do on any instrument. When all the instruments come together playing in time is a great feeling. You can't have a groove without being able to keep time and some people think playing sloppy and having a groove are the same thing. Although playing sloppy is a technique in itself; I'm not saying you have to be technically brilliant to be considered a musician or anything.

Sky King

raindog.promo wrote: »

most of the drummers I know are almost in fear of computers and want nothing to do with them,

Are you serious? Or are you speaking figuratively?

I wouldn;t have thought technophobia is related to what instrument you play.

In my opinon, some drummers don;t want to go down the programming route because they own acoustic kits, which don;t lend themselves too ready to being programmed.

I bought a set of V drums because I also like electronic music and I wanted to combine drumming with it.

Dr. Loon

rcaz wrote: »

I'll reply to the ones I'm responsible for...

Keeping time is the basis of some music. There's lots of music that doesn't use any strict meter or rhythm. And do you not think keeping time is boring? I'd much rather use all my mental power on getting interesting patterns together and accenting them all perfectly and other stuff rather than just counting. So why not let a machine do the counting for me while I focus on all the other bits? Unless of course I'm playing the kind of music that doesn't rely on strict time being kept.

Music that doesn't have any time? Sorry, I know of no such music. Maybe remote African tribes aren't using strict musical timing, but there's time there. All drummers need to know where the time is, all the time. We'll have to just agree to disagree here. I'm not sitting there counting every beat, but keeping time is a drummers bread and butter... you are there for every other musician to follow. It doesn't take mental power to keep time. Staying locked on a groove is not boring imo.

rcaz wrote: »

If you don't know exactly what I'm getting at hear, why did you point it out?

So you could clarify..

rcaz wrote: »

I didn't say hit anything 'erratically', I said to hit things 'more erratically', as in, erratically with respect to a straight quaver pattern. Maybe it means every few beats is actually a dotted demisemiquaver, or you're playing one note and two rests of a triplet pattern intermittently between other 'straight' notes, something that thwarts the 'straight' feel of a pattern. Yes there is a place for every beat, including all the truly erratic and random ones.

This makes your point a bit clearer, thanks. Not so much bóllox after all so. Apologies.

The thing I don't really get about your arguments is in;

you're acknowledging I'm a drummer and then saying I'm wrong about things I've learned from experience... I'm not making this stuff up, I've learned it through five years of drumming and around ten years of other musical practice and work... I don't get how I can say the 'most stupid thing on the thread' when it's been working perfectly well for me for years.

Each to their own, but in my opinion, a drummers basic aim should be to keep time, and keep a groove. I didn't say everything you said was wrong, and I'll stand by my statement... A drummer that says keeping time is pretty boring doesn't fully understand the idea of his basic role yet.

raindog.promo wrote:

Proving you just have confirmation bias.
Pffft, do ye know nothing?

Okay, time for you to cop on now. If you can't be bothered responding to my earlier points, then don't bother throwing little immature digs at me. I'll admit I may be accused of some hyperbole in dismissing everything as bóllox, and apologies if anyone is offended by that. I've since cleared up my points where necessary, and submitted some worthy discussion points I think, while you continue to act like a child. Grow up.