Americans tracing their ancestry: The lack of tolerance

Coolnabacky1873

I just finished reading this NYTimes article about an American chap of Irish descent, who travelled around Ireland. While the article only briefly mentions genealogical research many of those who commented are dismissive of Americans in general who embrace their Irish heritage and who have traced back to Ireland.

Irish people in general can be very dismissive of Americans tracing back to Ireland. Sure, there can bit a bit of Paddywhackery but I find this attitude disappointing, especially now that I live in the US (full disclosure: I earn part of my living by doing Irish research for Americans).

Many Americans have made real contribution to Irish genealogy as they began tracing their ancestors long before it became a big industry.

What do ye fellow genealogists think?

Cheers,

Coolnabacky

Jellybaby1

The American came here typically as an Irish-American romantic writer and that's what I gleaned from this piece. The way the Irish treated him is a far cry from the doffing of caps to the Americans which I witnessed in the 70's while we were on holiday in the West of Ireland. We could stand and get very old in a local shop whilst waiting to be served as the shopkeeper hopped here and there licking the boots of the tourists and the money rolled in. It seems the Irish locals have gone from one extreme to the other. But I will never forget it. I found it embarrassing at the time. We, being Irish, were of no interest to the local tradespeople. The writer of the piece has left me wanting more information about his Irish roots but he doesn't seem too interested in giving any more detail. Ireland is a changed place now and people are just empty husks. It will take a long time before our 'Oirish Eyes' smile again.

P.S. Sorry for encroaching here, I am not a genealogist.

Coolnabacky1873

Jellybaby,

Thanks for the input. Anyone who does a bit of family history research is a genealogist, no need to be earning money from it, so your views are just as valid.

I appreciate learning about how your experiences in the 70s were different as that is before my time.

katefromkerry

I love family history/genealogy. I am Irish
now living outside of Ireland.

As you know already, genealogy can be very time consuming. I found my Irish siblings
just don't have the time, or could care less when I find a new cousin during my own researching.
I belong to a few genealogy internet sites, so have helped quite a few people trace their Irish ancestors. I gave that up, when I found a job that actually pays. Now I just do it for the fun of it. It is almost like an addiction.

Jellybaby1

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

Jellybaby,

Thanks for the input. Anyone who does a bit of family history research is a genealogist, no need to be earning money from it, so your views are just as valid.

I appreciate learning about how your experiences in the 70s were different as that is before my time.

Well Cool, you must be just a young whippersnapper yourself.:D But in my youth, all Americans were thought to be rich and the people running shops, hotels, B&B's, restaurants etc, seemed to worship them because of all the cash they brought in, and unfortunately we weren't the best at tourism then, but we did have a smile, a whistle, and a tooralooraloo for them. :rolleyes: Well that was how I saw it anyway. How did we know the Americans were rich? Because we watched a lot of American movies and TV series and they all had flash stuff like fridges, cars, etc., which a lot of us didn't have at the time. To be honest and in my own humble opinion, all tourists should be treated with civility, but not fawned over. Ireland is very different now. I walked into a restaurant last week, not one Irish waiter or waitress, I went to the supermarket, majority were non-Irish, I passed one of those new gold-buying shops and all the staff were non-Irish. So do we have to teach our new population how to tooralooraloo for the sake of the tourists, I think not! However all that is off topic, so back to genealogy, yes it takes several lifetimes and it will never really be finished. Our children couldn't care less and all my work will be shredded after I'm gone. Damn and blast!

Skopzz

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

I just finished reading this NYTimes article about an American chap of Irish descent, who travelled around Ireland. While the article only briefly mentions genealogical research many of those who commented are dismissive of Americans in general who embrace their Irish heritage and who have traced back to Ireland.

Irish people in general can be very dismissive of Americans tracing back to Ireland. Sure, there can bit a bit of Paddywhackery but I find this attitude disappointing, especially now that I live in the US (full disclosure: I earn part of my living by doing Irish research for Americans).

Many Americans have made real contribution to Irish genealogy as they began tracing their ancestors long before it became a big industry.

What do ye fellow genealogists think?

Cheers,

Coolnabacky

Greetings,

You should know these people are generally loyalists posing as Irish people. They detest Irish reunification and they know America openly supports the reunification of Ireland, hence their twisted animosity towards Irish-Americans.

Usually, they are dumb unemployed people posting hatred like 'p---tic pa--y' etc. I know this because I openly counter them on various locations.

No Irish person would ever have animosity towards Americans tracing their Irish heritage.

Waitsian

Skopzz wrote: »

Greetings,

You should know these people are generally loyalists posing as Irish people. They detest Irish reunification and they know America openly supports the reunification of Ireland, hence their twisted animosity towards Irish-Americans.

Usually, they are dumb unemployed people posting hatred like 'p---tic pa--y' etc. I know this because I openly counter them on various locations.

No Irish person would ever have animosity towards Americans tracing their Irish heritage.

Whaaaat?!

P. Breathnach

mod9maple wrote: »

Whaaaat?!

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and treat the piece as satire.

dubhthach

Skopzz wrote: »

Greetings,

You should know these people are generally loyalists posing as Irish people. They detest Irish reunification and they know America openly supports the reunification of Ireland, hence their twisted animosity towards Irish-Americans.

Usually, they are dumb unemployed people posting hatred like 'p---tic pa--y' etc. I know this because I openly counter them on various locations.

No Irish person would ever have animosity towards Americans tracing their Irish heritage.

Mod
Trolling and inflammatory remarks aren't welcome in this forum. Keep it up and ye get a ban

dubhthach

Interesting article. I especially find the ignorant remarks that "Sullivan is an english name, O'Sullivan Irish" breathtaking. No doubt the person thinks the same about Carthy vs. O'Carthy/MacCarthy :eek:

I think there is a wider malaise afoot here tbh. One only looks at the way many Irish people talk with contempt about the "London Irish" (or other Irish born in Britain) who have two Irish parents, but as far as the "commentators" are concerned "aren't Irish at all" and thus the use of the term "Plastic Paddy"

I've wonder at times is it some sort of mechanism that grew out of the mass emigration. The fact that we are the descendants of the people who "stayed behind" and thus been derogatory to the descendants of emigrants we can fool ourselves into imagining that people didn't have to leave to survive etc.

pedroeibar1

It’s an op-ed piece and not particularly accurate or well researched. Take out the Joyce, Synge, etc., and there’s not much substance to it.
Quote :
“a lot more tourists were coming here. So a lot of the fishermen sold their boats and bought minibuses.”

Actually, many fishermen sold their boats because the new regulations forced them to because of quotas, paperwork, health & safety. It paid them to do so, hence spending the cash on a new way of life.

In my local community they are welcomed as tourists and overall are very well looked after. On a personal level I’ve regularly helped visitors with their ‘roots’ or local history (I’m not a ‘pro’) but it gets tiresome when too many of them do not want fact and are disappointed when their misty-eyed stories are contradicted. It’s also wearisome when they arrive in droves, unannounced and expect everything to be dropped so they can have a guided tour.
That said, I have a very distant relative in MA who is a pleasure to deal with by email and he has contributed enormously to my family’s research on both sides of the Atlantic.

Coolnabacky1873

dubhthach wrote: »

I especially find the ignorant remarks that "Sullivan is an english name, O'Sullivan Irish" breathtaking. No doubt the person thinks the same about Carthy vs. O'Carthy/MacCarthy :eek:

Agreed. I've been surprised how common that belief is here in the U.S. Usually told to said American by some eejit on a bar stool in the local pub of where the ancestors came from. Much like in the article I guess.

genealogist

I find the vast amount of Americans who are researching their Irish ancestry very friendly and polite.

It's only in recent times that the Irish govt. have copped on in seeing the potential. I have my own views on the Irish Heritage Certificate and so do many americans. A good number are cynical towards it though they think it might be a good idea for a relative as a gift.

There's huge potential in bars and businesses in general here to maximise the growing interest. A bar adding some old photographs to their walls etc. adds to the atmosphere. There's one rural bar I know of that has added a number of very old photographs to their establishment with local history books and has involved the local historical group. They now advertise on facebook etc and advertising their interest.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

tac foley

I'm extraordinarily proud to be half-Irish - the better half, I have no doubt of it. I owe my silver tongue and gifts of memory and teaching to the upbringing by my story-telling dad, long gone now.

I proudly wore my Irish name - in its Irish form - on my military clothing for most of my 33 years as a soldier in a foreign army, and take no harm from being called a plastic paddy.

Sad to say, my dad's Irish family disowned me utterly when I was born, and I've never met a single one of them, although I'm told that I look exactly like my two half-brothers.

Where we live in Canada there are any number of famine family immigrants - at least, those who survived the cholera and typhus of the landing place in the St Lawrence - Grosse-Ile - where almost 3500 of the 6000 immigrant dead are buried. Irish Canadians today, like me, are very proud of our Irish heritage, and celebrate it every year at the appropriate time. Our local township's Irish Festival is a measure of the great contribution that Ireland and its people made to the building of Canada, even if some of the Irish only speak French!

tac

texasgal

I am sooo hesitating to post.

I am American who enjoys genealogy. I am most drawn to the Irish part of my heritage. I don't know if it is because of my Irish (not English) last name of Sullivan, or just growing up hearing from my father and grandfather that we were of "Irish descent".

Hubby and I are talking about a trip to Ireland, but I have to say that being, mostly a lurker, on this board has given me apprehension.

Sometimes I get the sense that the only thing worse than a "yank", is a "yank" that is calling themselves "Irish" .. or is "looking for their ancestors".

All I can tell you is that it calls to me like no other part of my heritage. I WILL take my trip to Ireland. I AM proud to call myself "Irish" or "of Irish descent".

I will refrain from announcing that at any Irish pub, though .. lol.

~texasgal

pedroeibar1

texasgal wrote: »

I am sooo hesitating to post.

I am American who enjoys genealogy. I am most drawn to the Irish part of my heritage. I don't know if it is because of my Irish (not English) last name of Sullivan, or just growing up hearing from my father and grandfather that we were of "Irish descent".

Hubby and I are talking about a trip to Ireland, but I have to say that being, mostly a lurker, on this board has given me apprehension.

Sometimes I get the sense that the only thing worse than a "yank", is a "yank" that is calling themselves "Irish" .. or is "looking for their ancestors".

All I can tell you is that it calls to me like no other part of my heritage. I WILL take my trip to Ireland. I AM proud to call myself "Irish" or "of Irish descent".

I will refrain from announcing that at any Irish pub, though .. lol.

~texasgal

I know Texas is a strange place;), but there is no need to be apprehensive. You & hubby will be welcomed in Ireland when you come here as would any other visitor. Those who profit most are they who listen, who ask a question rather than make a pronouncement often based on family lore rather than fact. Try and do a bit of family research before you come, it will make the visit more purposeful and enjoyable.
You are lucky to have O’Sullivan blood, they come from West Cork & Kerry, my favourite part of Ireland (& I have no roots in that corner). If you have not yet read it, get a copy of ‘From Bantry Bay to Leitrim’ by Peter Sommerville-Large. You’ll enjoy it, and be even prouder of the O’Sullivan connection.

texasgal

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I know Texas is a strange place;), but there is no need to be apprehensive. You & hubby will be welcomed in Ireland when you come here as would any other visitor. Those who profit most are they who listen, who ask a question rather than make a pronouncement often based on family lore rather than fact. Try and do a bit of family research before you come, it will make the visit more purposeful and enjoyable.
You are lucky to have O’Sullivan blood, they come from West Cork & Kerry, my favourite part of Ireland (& I have no roots in that corner). If you have not yet read it, get a copy of ‘From Bantry Bay to Leitrim’ by Peter Sommerville-Large. You’ll enjoy it, and be even prouder of the O’Sullivan connection.

Thank you. I've done some research. I believe we'll spend some time in County Cork, the Bantry, Dunboy Castle ruins. I'm a pretty good listener .. So I think we'll do fine.

I'll have to get the book and discover more about my O'Sullivan peeps!

Thanks again.

pinkypinky

Really, you've nothing to worry about (except rain!)

Like Pedro says, do some research beforehand. I've seen Americans rock up to the genealogy room in the National Library with just a name and a potential county to go on. They more often than not go away empty handed but if you don't have to. The main things to establish are:

Names
Religion (catholic, protestant, etc)
Approximate parish, or at least county
Approximate date left Ireland

If there's anything unusual like an occupation, make sure you have all your details.

US birth certs for the next generation will often tell you the location in Ireland (unlike the UK census, where they just wrote "Ireland").

texasgal

I've got tons of information .. so when I go to the National Library, I'll only be looking for info I don't have (religion, parish, burial site?)..

I think I've traced through the O'Sullivan Beare line all the way to Adam and Eve ... LOL.

I really just want to put my feet where their feet were .. and look at the sea that they looked at ..

I've been warned not to stand still too long as I could grow roots!

I'm looking forward to it.

Thank ya'll (lol) for your insight.

getz

texasgal wrote: »

I've got tons of information .. so when I go to the National Library, I'll only be looking for info I don't have (religion, parish, burial site?)..

I think I've traced through the O'Sullivan Beare line all the way to Adam and Eve ... LOL.

I really just want to put my feet where their feet were .. and look at the sea that they looked at ..

I've been warned not to stand still too long as I could grow roots!

I'm looking forward to it.

Thank ya'll (lol) for your insight.

if you can track your ancestors thats very good,but be warned many irishmen changed their names when leaving ireland,maybe left a unwanted marriage ect,thats why like me you could hit a blank wall,

pedroeibar1

texasgal wrote: »

I've got tons of information .. so when I go to the National Library, I'll only be looking for info I don't have (religion, parish, burial site?)..

I think I've traced through the O'Sullivan Beare line all the way to Adam and Eve ... LOL.

I really just want to put my feet where their feet were .. and look at the sea that they looked at ..

I've been warned not to stand still too long as I could grow roots!

I'm looking forward to it.

Thank ya'll (lol) for your insight.

Are you sure they are O'Sullivan Beare and not O'Sullivan Mor?

texasgal

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Are you sure they are O'Sullivan Beare and not O'Sullivan Mor?

Well, I was really sure right up to the point that you asked the question. I can't, right off, remember how I got there.

What would be the distinction?

pedroeibar1

texasgal wrote: »

Well, I was really sure right up to the point that you asked the question. I can't, right off, remember how I got there.

What would be the distinction? .

You have lots of homework to do........;).
I’m no authority on the O’Sullivans. The family was pushed into Kerry/West Cork from Tipperary by the Normans. The O’S B’s were in W Cork, the O’S Mor’s had part of Iveragh, the area to the west of Kenmare, on the north side of the bay; their castle was at Dunkerron. They are McCarthys actually, if you go back far enough

texasgal

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You have lots of homework to do........;).
I’m no authority on the O’Sullivans. The family was pushed into Kerry/West Cork from Tipperary by the Normans. The O’S B’s were in W Cork, the O’S Mor’s had part of Iveragh, the area to the west of Kenmare, on the north side of the bay; their castle was at Dunkerron. They are McCarthys actually, if you go back far enough

Thanks for humoring me ...

charlemont

dubhthach wrote: »

Interesting article. I especially find the ignorant remarks that "Sullivan is an english name, O'Sullivan Irish" breathtaking. No doubt the person thinks the same about Carthy vs. O'Carthy/MacCarthy :eek:

I think there is a wider malaise afoot here tbh. One only looks at the way many Irish people talk with contempt about the "London Irish" (or other Irish born in Britain) who have two Irish parents, but as far as the "commentators" are concerned "aren't Irish at all" and thus the use of the term "Plastic Paddy"

I've wonder at times is it some sort of mechanism that grew out of the mass emigration. The fact that we are the descendants of the people who "stayed behind" and thus been derogatory to the descendants of emigrants we can fool ourselves into imagining that people didn't have to leave to survive etc.

That's an excellent point, I thought similar myself. Personally I think the root of lots of our countries problems in term of politics, attitudes, industry etc can be linked to emigration. Its been stripping us of the most valuable assets we have, People, for generations now.

Irish people generally see a spade as a spade so when Americans come here and call themselves Irish, Its not totally true because they speak different to us and come from a similar but different culture and lifestyle, I have no problem with people of Irish descent being proud of or being interested in their Irish heritage, They may be considered Irish at home but they themselves are not actually from Ireland !

pedroeibar1

charlemont wrote: »

............ Personally I think the root of lots of our countries problems in term of politics, attitudes, industry etc can be linked to emigration. Its been stripping us of the most valuable assets we have, People, for generations now.

Irish people generally see a spade as a spade so when Americans come here and call themselves Irish, Its not totally true because they speak different to us and come from a similar but different culture and lifestyle, I have no problem with people of Irish descent being proud of or being interested in their Irish heritage, They may be considered Irish at home but they themselves are not actually from Ireland !

Under Darwinian Law it follows that those who remained in Ireland are becoming less and less intelligent, less motivated and less successful. If you don’t believe that, you are correct. Some of the best managers in this country learned their skills overseas and have put them to great use here. It is a pity that our gombeen politicians never lived/worked abroad or had a successful career outside politics.
The issues that some Irish have with Americans who come here are often valid and inevitably have nothing to do with language or pride. I’ve had a ‘yank’ arrive up to my place and say ‘all this was my family’s until the English threw us out’ which was arrant nonsense. As are the claims that they are descended from kings. And without wishing to be unkind to the lady from Texas, were I an O’Sullivan interested in my heritage I would know straight off the difference between the O'Sullivan Beare’s and Mor’s, and know that the O’Sullivans are a sub sept of the McCarthys from long before the Normans and know it before I came to Ireland, along with completed basic research - as kindly suggested by PkyPky above.

charlemont

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Under Darwinian Law it follows that those who remained in Ireland are becoming less and less intelligent, less motivated and less successful. If you don’t believe that, you are correct. Some of the best managers in this country learned their skills overseas and have put them to great use here. It is a pity that our gombeen politicians never lived/worked abroad or had a successful career outside politics.
The issues that some Irish have with Americans who come here are often valid and inevitably have nothing to do with language or pride. I’ve had a ‘yank’ arrive up to my place and say ‘all this was my family’s until the English threw us out’ which was arrant nonsense. As are the claims that they are descended from kings. And without wishing to be unkind to the lady from Texas, were I an O’Sullivan interested in my heritage I would know straight off the difference between the O'Sullivan Beare’s and Mor’s, and know that the O’Sullivans are a sub sept of the McCarthys from long before the Normans and know it before I came to Ireland, along with completed basic research - as kindly suggested by PkyPky above.

I completely and utterly agree.
Our people abroad have done very well for themselves so there could be jealousy involved in their treatment when they come here researching their ancestors.

CeannRua

texasgal wrote: »

LOL .. I'm sure I have it all at home ...

Dermod (1500's) married a McCarthy, I believe. I went back to Dunboy Castle, and all seemed to be in West Cork until emigrating to USA.

Yes, I need to get busy with my homework ..

Thanks for humoring me ...

From some googling, all the references that Texasgal gives are for O'Sullivan Beare and not O'Sullivan Mor. I think Dunboy Castle though would be Castletownbere rather than Bantry area.

Texasgal, what period are you researching?

texasgal

CeannRua wrote: »

From some googling, all the references that Texasgal gives are for O'Sullivan Beare and not O'Sullivan Mor. I think Dunboy Castle though would be Castletownbere rather than Bantry area.

Texasgal, what period are you researching?

I've basically just done the basic genealogy back to the 1500's. I would love to gather all the info/history of the period prior to the emigration to the USA. Dunboy Castle and how they got scattered, etc.

Time, unfortunately, has been my enemy this year, so I've devoted very little time to researching.

Do you have suggestions for reading? Or resources for research?

pinkypinky

texasgal wrote: »

I've basically just done the basic genealogy back to the 1500's. I would love to gather all the info/history of the period prior to the emigration to the USA. Dunboy Castle and how they got scattered, etc.

Time, unfortunately, has been my enemy this year, so I've devoted very little time to researching.

Do you have suggestions for reading? Or resources for research?

The 1500s? :eek:
Are you talking about general O'Sullivan families or your own specific tree?

The average person in Ireland is doing really well to get back before the famine at all, unless you have landed gentry or aristocracy somewhere. My own research, backed up by certs/censuses/land records, only just tips into the 18th century on a Welsh branch.

texasgal

Whatever.

dubhthach

That's an impressive lineage!

CeannRua

texasgal wrote: »

I've basically just done the basic genealogy back to the 1500's. I would love to gather all the info/history of the period prior to the emigration to the USA. Dunboy Castle and how they got scattered, etc.

Time, unfortunately, has been my enemy this year, so I've devoted very little time to researching.

Do you have suggestions for reading? Or resources for research?

Very impressive! I have no knowledge of the O'Sullivans and you might have all this already but here goes - you could take a look at two National Library catalogues - the main one as well as http://sources.nli.ie There are some pedigrees here for the O'Sullivan Beares but with a prominent family like this, maybe they've been published already. Also, there's a site called www.europeana.eu and there are a small number of references there. There are some early histories of Co Cork like Charles Smith and you'll find this on Google Books; also there's www.archive.org. Also, the Beara Historical Society site lists some books... No end of reading material and you'll probably get more details from bibliographies once you start reading.

texasgal

CeannRua wrote: »

Very impressive! I have no knowledge of the O'Sullivans and you might have all this already but here goes - you could take a look at two National Library catalogues - the main one as well as http://sources.nli.ie There are some pedigrees here for the O'Sullivan Beares but with a prominent family like this, maybe they've been published already. Also, there's a site called www.europeana.eu and there are a small number of references there. There are some early histories of Co Cork like Charles Smith and you'll find this on Google Books; also there's www.archive.org. Also, the Beara Historical Society site lists some books... No end of reading material and you'll probably get more details from bibliographies once you start reading.

Oh, these are going to be fun! I like http://sources.nli.ie after just a peek!

Thanks so much...

Jellybaby1

texasgal wrote: »

I will admit that I don't have proper documentation for all of it"

Personally, I would have to have the documentary proof before I would accept anything that far back. I can go back that far too without documentation, this looks to me like someone got the list from the old Annals in the NLI.

texasgal

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

texasgal wrote: »

I will admit that I don't have proper documentation for all of it"

Personally, I would have to have the documentary proof before I would accept anything that far back. I can go back that far too without documentation, this looks to me like someone got the list from the old Annals in the NLI.

Working on it .. but for now, that's all I've got. I've got reference to various documents, but don't have many of them in my possession.

Thanks!

owenc

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

I just finished reading this NYTimes article about an American chap of Irish descent, who travelled around Ireland. While the article only briefly mentions genealogical research many of those who commented are dismissive of Americans in general who embrace their Irish heritage and who have traced back to Ireland.

Irish people in general can be very dismissive of Americans tracing back to Ireland. Sure, there can bit a bit of Paddywhackery but I find this attitude disappointing, especially now that I live in the US (full disclosure: I earn part of my living by doing Irish research for Americans).

Many Americans have made real contribution to Irish genealogy as they began tracing their ancestors long before it became a big industry.

What do ye fellow genealogists think?

Cheers,

Coolnabacky

Well it gets annoying. Because they go on and on about they are "irish" and how they're great great aggy granny is from ireland. No one really cares. And this false attitude of being a nationality that you aren't is annoying.

kabakuyu

And this false attitude of being a nationality that you aren't is annoying[/QUOTE

Why?

pedroeibar1

texasgal wrote: »

I will admit that I don't have proper documentation for all of it"

I’d appreciate Coolbabacky’s views on that bit of Americana, given what some of us have been saying on this thread.

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I can go back that far too without documentation,

Is that all? :D:D:D

On the paternal male line , if I could obtain documentary proof to connect two generations in the 1700s, (all have same male Christian names, lived in the same townland, same lore in different branches of the family,) I could go back to 1470 with proofs and possibly to the 1300’s. (Edw III's Exchequer Lay Subsidies, also the Lay Subsidy Roll for the County of Worcester, ca. 1280.) The English pedigree to mid 1400's is archived, is about two feet wide and six feet long, on linen-backed paper and fixed on wooden rollers. Prior to those dates I have the same family names in the Domesday book, same place in England. (Yes, we had a surname that far back.)

Actually, while I'm at it, if I ignore the basics (shur why not!) I can go back to Adam, my pedigree is registered in the Saxon Chronicles. (below).
But that would mean I might have to relinquish my highly desired claim to be a descendant of Wilfred the Shaggy.;) But then, I would gain a link to the Frankish Queen Judith, known as 'Judith the Bald' so that would have a certain counterbalance:cool:.

Saxon Chronicles A.D. 854. This year the heathen men (for the first time remained over winter in the Isle of Shepey. The same year King Ethelwulf registered a TENTH of his land over all his kingdom for the honour of God and for his own everlasting salvation. The same year also he went to Rome with great pomp, and was resident there a twelvemonth. Then he returned homeward; and Charles, king of the Franks, gave him his daughter, whose name was Judith, to be his queen. After this he came to his people, and they were fain to receive him; but about two years after his residence among the Franks he died; and his body lies at Winchester. He reigned eighteen years and a half. And Ethelwulf was the son of Egbert, Egbert of Ealhmund, Ealhmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa, Eoppa of Ingild; Ingild was the brother of Ina, king of the West-Saxons, who held that kingdom thirty-seven winters, and afterwards went to St. Peter, where he died. And they were the sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda, Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis, Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugarof Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald, Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwaof Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon, Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark: Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth, Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen. Then two sons of Ethelwulf succeeded to the kingdom; Ethelbald to Wessex, and Ethelbert to Kent, Essex, Surrey, and Sussex. Ethelbald reigned five years. Alfred, his third son, Ethelwulfhad sent to Rome; and when the pope heard say that he was dead, he consecrated Alfred king, and held him under spiritual hands, as his father Ethelwulf had desired, and for which purpose he had sent him thither.

Jellybaby1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I’d appreciate Coolbabacky’s views on that bit of Americana, given what some of us have been saying on this thread.



Is that all? :D:D:D

On the paternal male line , if I could obtain documentary proof to connect two generations in the 1700s, (all have same male Christian names, lived in the same townland, same lore in different branches of the family,) I could go back to 1470 with proofs and possibly to the 1300’s. (Edw III's Exchequer Lay Subsidies, also the Lay Subsidy Roll for the County of Worcester, ca. 1280.) The English pedigree to mid 1400's is archived, is about two feet wide and six feet long, on linen-backed paper and fixed on wooden rollers. Prior to those dates I have the same family names in the Domesday book, same place in England. (Yes, we had a surname that far back.)

Actually, while I'm at it, if I ignore the basics (shur why not!) I can go back to Adam, my pedigree is registered in the Saxon Chronicles. (below).
But that would mean I might have to relinquish my highly desired claim to be a descendant of Wilfred the Shaggy.;) But then, I would gain a link to the Frankish Queen Judith, known as 'Judith the Bald' so that would have a certain counterbalance:cool:.

Saxon Chronicles A.D. 854. This year the heathen men (for the first time remained over winter in the Isle of Shepey. The same year King Ethelwulf registered a TENTH of his land over all his kingdom for the honour of God and for his own everlasting salvation. The same year also he went to Rome with great pomp, and was resident there a twelvemonth. Then he returned homeward; and Charles, king of the Franks, gave him his daughter, whose name was Judith, to be his queen. After this he came to his people, and they were fain to receive him; but about two years after his residence among the Franks he died; and his body lies at Winchester. He reigned eighteen years and a half. And Ethelwulf was the son of Egbert, Egbert of Ealhmund, Ealhmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa, Eoppa of Ingild; Ingild was the brother of Ina, king of the West-Saxons, who held that kingdom thirty-seven winters, and afterwards went to St. Peter, where he died. And they were the sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda, Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis, Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugarof Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald, Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwaof Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon, Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark: Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth, Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen. Then two sons of Ethelwulf succeeded to the kingdom; Ethelbald to Wessex, and Ethelbert to Kent, Essex, Surrey, and Sussex. Ethelbald reigned five years. Alfred, his third son, Ethelwulfhad sent to Rome; and when the pope heard say that he was dead, he consecrated Alfred king, and held him under spiritual hands, as his father Ethelwulf had desired, and for which purpose he had sent him thither.

Thank you - that was music to my ears!

texasgal

Ya, well .. Hate me if you must .. Lol.

"Ya'll" are purdee funny!

dubhthach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Actually, while I'm at it, if I ignore the basics (shur why not!) I can go back to Adam,

Well all men carry a "document" in every cell of their body that can be traced back to a common ancestor. This been their Y-Chromosome. Though in the case of "Y-Chromosome Adam" he lived about 140k years ago! Everyman on the planet is descended from him. (3.5billion men)

CeannRua

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

On the paternal male line , if I could obtain documentary proof to connect two generations in the 1700s, (all have same male Christian names, lived in the same townland, same lore in different branches of the family,) I could go back to 1470 with proofs and possibly to the 1300’s. (Edw III's Exchequer Lay Subsidies, also the Lay Subsidy Roll for the County of Worcester, ca. 1280.) The English pedigree to mid 1400's is archived, is about two feet wide and six feet long, on linen-backed paper and fixed on wooden rollers. Prior to those dates I have the same family names in the Domesday book, same place in England. (Yes, we had a surname that far back.)

I have no idea whether or not the lineage Texasgal posted is correct but the positive that I take from Pedroeibar's post is that for some families documentation is sometimes available beyond the date of early 19th century that is the cut-off for so many of us in genealogy terms, particularly in Ireland. Texasgal says she is doing further research. I would have thought that researching and seeing what it throws up should always constitute a first step - rather than deciding it is impossible...

texasgal

CeannRua wrote: »

I have no idea whether or not the lineage Texasgal posted is correct but the positive that I take from Pedroeibar's post is that for some families documentation is sometimes available beyond the date of early 19th century that is the cut-off for so many of us in genealogy terms, particularly in Ireland. Texasgal says she is doing further research. I would have thought that researching and seeing what it throws up should always constitute a first step - rather than deciding it is impossible...

Blessings .....

pedroeibar1

CeannRua wrote: »

I have no idea whether or not the lineage Texasgal posted is correct but the positive that I take from Pedroeibar's post is that for some families documentation is sometimes available beyond the date of early 19th century that is the cut-off for so many of us in genealogy terms, particularly in Ireland.

I agree, there is lots there if you take the time and cast a wide net. I’ve a growing acceptance (sort of) that that I’ll probably never obtain the proofs for the 18thC. links. That said, the story of an Irish branch/connection remains extant and is recorded in the English branch since the early 1800’s. Both branches accept the family connection, so it really is rather academic. Much of what I have on the early 1700’s is from the writings of and correspondence with Sir William Betham at the Gen.Office; although he appears to accept the connection, in true genealogical fashion he raises a few questions. Other reasons for the geno. difficulty are (a) reputedly my lineal ancestor was struck from the Irish branch pedigree when he converted (at a time when it was neither profitable nor popular) on marriage to a Catholic and (b) one of the 18c sons had a surprising number of illegitimate children. Christian names are repeated with glorious monotony so it’s a nightmare to link family members. There are other branches around the world, some descended from the Irish line, others from the main English one. I’ve often considered the cost/benefit of initiating a DNA family study but I’m totally ignorant of that topic and want to learn more about what it could do before I proceed. Maybe WDYTYA might come to the rescue (but I won’t cooperate if it is Mooney!)

CeannRua wrote: »

Texasgal says she is doing further research. I would have thought that researching and seeing what it throws up should always constitute a first step - rather than deciding it is impossible...

I fully agree with the first part – however, ‘rather than deciding it is impossible’ should be replaced with a health warning on ‘rather than adopting a pedigree from the internet.’

texasgal wrote: »

I will admit that I don't have proper documentation for all of it, but seems to pretty well accepted line..
His dad was John Thomas O'Sullivan 1637-1698 emigrated to USA
His dad was Owen-Donel O'Sullivan b. after 1599 emigrated to USA

I’m neither genealogist nor historian, but do know that in general the Irish did start going to the US until the 1700’s and while lots fled after Kinsale and later Cromwell, their direction was inevitably to Europe, like O’S Beare himself and Philip. Elsewhere on the WWW the John Thomas O’S you claim is shown as being born in Ardee, Co. Louth, his father Owen being born in Dunboy Castle. I would be very interested to know what proof there is for this, or indeed its likelihood and subsequent American records from that era, which is why I asked for a contribution by Coolnabacky.

texasgal wrote: »

I'll continue on and ignore the haters ..

Rather a silly remark; the vast majority of the posters here are polite and more than extremely helpful, hatred does not come into it but some posters tend to be less patient then others over unsubstantiated claims.

All we are missing now is a .jpg post with the O’Sullivan Clan Tartan

dubhthach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There are other branches around the world, some descended from the Irish line, others from the main English one. I’ve often considered the cost/benefit of initiating a DNA family study but I’m totally ignorant of that topic and want to learn more about what it could do before I proceed.

Sensible approach. I'm the co-admin on the Ireland yDNA project on FamilyTreeDNA (FTDNA). We've close to 4,500 members who have some connection to Ireland. Send me a pm if ye have any questions. Of course my own interest in DNA side was more from ancient history as oppose to the genealogy!

pedroeibar1

Thanks Dubhthach, will do when I'm sufficiently informed to ask an intelligent question:)

Coolnabacky1873

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I’d appreciate Coolbabacky’s views on that bit of Americana, given what some of us have been saying on this thread.

Pedroeiber1, my two cents:

It is important to understand from their point of view whenever we look at other cultures or societies and the reasoning behind the way they think that they do.

All people have a need to identify with a group and have a sense of 'belonging'. In Ireland, it could be argued this is based on geography and the main geographical division, the county. So, I'm a Kerryman, I'm a Dub, I'm from Galway etc.. And then even within counties there are 'town' and 'country' folk and even more local such as this parish and that parish.


I feel that here in the U.S. this is based on ethnic heritage and ancestry. So if your ancestors were mostly from Ireland you consider yourself Irish, as opposed to your neighbo(u)r who has Italian or Polish ancestry etc..



They are not claiming a nationality, as owenc might think, more a common identity based on the fact their ancestors are from Ireland.


To texasgal: Best of luck with your research and I hope you have a great time in Ireland. Don't listed to any bar stool gombeens who tell you you are not a Sullivan or don't have Irish ancestry etc..
And also, documentation, if you can get it, is king (and make sure it cite it too!).

pedroeibar1

Thanks Coolnabacky. What I am curious about is the availability and accuracy of records in the US for the early 1600’s, as I have an interest in a family in Long Island at that time and ran into major obstacles when they later moved to Alabama & Florida (they were Royalists).

I’ll explain my views and then that’s it, no more from me on this topic:-
I agree with most of your comments and I’ve no argument with anybody who is proud of their Irish heritage, however tenuous. Like you today, I once lived in NYC (10021) for more than five years when I worked Downtown (10005) so I understand the American psyche, particularly as my work required me to travel all over the US, Canada & Lat. America.

My issues with this thread relate to a total lack of factual support or comment when a pedigree (fascinating if correct) was presented as ‘fact’ and any query or helpful comment posted resulted in a vague remark like ‘Working on it .. but for now, that's all I've got.’ and ‘LOL’ and ‘I've got reference to various documents, but don't have many of them in my possession.’

Less dismissive responses would be an ordinary courtesy to thread followers and considerably more educational. Simple, really.

Coolnabacky1873

Early 1600s, my knowledge of that era is limited but I know of the following examples:
There is a record for every convict in New York City (NYC was just Manhattan up to 1898) going back to 1664 (not early 17thC but that's as far back as they go)

There are baptismal registers from the early Dutch Churches from the 1600s

I was also at a talk once about house and land histories for New Jersey and the speaker said you can trace the ownership of every piece of land through documentation back to when it was 'purchased' from the Native Americans. I could conceivably think that the same exists for New York state too. I imagine that would be 17thC

Many older maps of that time show the names of individual land owners and farmers.

I am sure there are other types of records too. For other states my knowledge is limited but for the east coast colonies I'd imagine land grants and deeds are the way to go.

As for the pedigrees I would be hesitant too. In Tracing Your Irish Ancestors John Grenham talks of reputable ones in the Genealogical Office going back to the 12thC but I wouldn't go near anything in Irish Pedigrees The Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation byJohn O'Hart. A mix of pre-PRO 1922 fire uncited sources, guesswork and ideological shoehorning.

pedroeibar1

Coolnabacky1873 wrote: »

In Tracing Your Irish Ancestors John Grenham talks of reputable ones in the Genealogical Office going back to the 12thC but I wouldn't go near anything in Irish Pedigrees The Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation byJohn O'Hart. A mix of pre-PRO 1922 fire uncited sources, guesswork and ideological shoehorning.

Agreed on O'Hart:D; B. Burke is incorrect with several entries on my family, but I've found some nuggets in the GO's Loose Mss.:)
Thanks again from typing all that out,
P.