How not to win hearts and minds . . .

gizmo555

. . . USMC unit in Afghanistan poses for pic with SS backdrop. WTF were they thinking?

Manach

Leaving aside that if it were the SS symbol (and whatever else about them the Waffen branch were skilled fighters ) at least they are not urinating on anyone :rolleyes:

gizmo555

Manach wrote: »

Leaving aside that if it were the SS symbol . . .

Surely there can't be any doubt about that? Or are you really suggesting they might have just happened to pick an identical symbol by coincidence?

cyrusdvirus

gizmo555 wrote: »

Surely there can't be any doubt about that? Or are you really suggesting they might have just happened to pick an identical symbol by coincidence?

oops...

Poccington

USMC Scout Snipers have been using runic s' for years now.

They're not glorifying the SS, they're not praising them... They're using runic s' to denote the term Scout Sniper, something they're obviously very proud of being.

**** sake. People get outraged for the sake of getting outraged these days.

spank_inferno

People... ie the media and the Helen Lovejoy types seem to want to find offense in a lot of things.

That picture is only offensive if you want it to be offensive.

I think the picture is cool.... and I then get on with my life

gizmo555

The fact that they have been using the symbol for years doesn't make it right, if anything it makes it worse that nobody down the years said "wait a minute . . ."

I'm not in any way suggesting these guys are neo-Nazis, but if they have no understanding of how inappropriate the use of the symbol is, especially in a military context, then you'd have say that at best they're pretty thoughtless and ignorant. (And that, of course, goes double for their superior officers.)

Gooleybag

gizmo555 wrote: »

The fact that they have been using the symbol for years doesn't make it right, if anything it makes it worse that nobody down the years said "wait a minute . . ."

I'm not in any way suggesting these guys are neo-Nazis, but if they have no understanding of how inappropriate the use of the symbol is, especially in a military context, then you'd have say that at best they're pretty thoughtless and ignorant. (And that, of course, goes double for their superior officers.)

So just to clear things up. The offensive part of this picture isn't the ten Heavily armed men displaying their national colours while standing in a foreign land they invaded. It's the fact that they do so with a blue flag with a symbol on it that reminds you of a symbol once used by another group of armed men. Right think I'm all caught up now I'm ready for the exam.

Socialist_Pig

Poccington wrote: »

USMC Scout Snipers have been using runic s' for years now.

since when? before or after the 2nd world war?

. They're using runic s' to denote the term Scout Sniper

or the term Schutzstaffel

EDIT:spot the difference

Poccington

Socialist_Pig wrote: »

since when? before or after the 2nd world war?


or the term Schutzstaffel

EDIT:spot the difference

1st Gulf War is the earliest I personally know of. Runic symbol's were around long before the SS and long after it, the SS don't have a monopoly on it's use.

The SS used runic s' as their symbol... Some Scout Snipers adopted runic s' as an unofficial symbol to denote the term Scout Sniper. The runic s' in both pics are different by the way, the s' in the Scout Sniper photo is thicker and straight, rather than being at an angle. Anyway, the USMC have already come out and said it's unaccceptable and that action has been taken.

People will have to move on and find their next source of outrage... I hear a civilian company in the US are currently using the Afrika Corps palm tree as their insignia, minus the swastika. TO THE OUTRAGE BUS!

Manach

Well, this might sum it up from the Marine PoV.
terminallance.com

gizmo555

Gooleybag wrote: »

So just to clear things up. The offensive part of this picture isn't the ten Heavily armed men displaying their national colours while standing in a foreign land they invaded. It's the fact that they do so with a blue flag with a symbol on it that reminds you of a symbol once used by another group of armed men. Right think I'm all caught up now I'm ready for the exam.

Ah, get off your high horse and read the thread title.

As for those posters who think this is just another example of PC gone wild, the same goes for you. My point is that this is a completely avoidable and serious PR balls-up and to put yourself in the position, as these men have, of having to explain that you're not really Nazis shows extremely poor judgement. It appears that the USMC agrees with me:

A spokeswoman said the icon had been used by the troops to identify themselves as scout snipers, a designation unique to the Marine Corps, and was never intended to have Nazi connotations.

In a statement the Corps said: "Certainly, the use of the 'SS runes' is not acceptable and scout snipers have been addressed concerning this issue. 'SS runes' are prohibited from use as a symbol or any other use."

"Rest assured, the Marine Corps does not allow the use of 'SS runes'."

galwaycyclist

Last time I checked there were German troops in Afghanistan. I suspect that if any of them had posed for a picture with a flag like this it would have been a court martial offence. Someone should have told these little boys there is a real world out there beyond their comic books.

galwaycyclist

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Last time I checked there were German troops in Afghanistan. I suspect that if any of them had posed for a picture with a flag like this it would have been a court martial offence. Someone should have told these little boys there is a real world out there beyond their comic books.

Now that I have had my coffee and thought about it. Given that this flag is an established, recognised, party political symbol, I am minded to assume that it would also be a court martial offence for members of the Irish defence forces to pose such a picture.

secondopinion

Can we be sure these gents aren't Nazis?

On a more serious note, shouldn't western soldiers be able to express any political views they like?

Donny5

secondopinion wrote: »

On a more serious note, shouldn't western soldiers be able to express any political views they like?

No, not in uniform. On their own time, they can do as the like, but on the job, they must be studiously apolitical.

Border-Rat

No real National Socialist would fight in this war. The Taliban or Afghans wouldn't be offended by the symbol anyway. Heinrich Himmler was a much bigger fan of Conservative Muslims than Americans and/or their 'culture'.

secondopinion

Border-Rat wrote: »

No real National Socialist would fight in this war. The Taliban or Afghans wouldn't be offended by the symbol anyway. Heinrich Himmler was a much bigger fan of Conservative Muslims than Americans and/or their 'culture'.

Wasn't he barking mad though?

SocialistPig

Poccington wrote: »

TO THE OUTRAGE BUS!

Dont know were you're getting the OUTRAGE sh1te from.Im not outraged, couldnt care less but the point I was making is that all over the world the 2 runic s' represent and are reckonised as a nazi icon,irrespective if the unit is called scout snipers.

The link from manach somes it up nicely:D

Socialist_Pig

SocialistPig wrote: »

Dont know were you're getting the OUTRAGE sh1te from.Im not outraged, couldnt care less but the point I was making is that all over the world the 2 runic s' represent and are reckonised as a nazi icon,irrespective if the unit is called scout snipers.

The link from manach somes it up nicely:D

lol sorry about that..couldnt remember the password for that account closed now anyways

RMD

It's a symbol which shouldn't be used (quite obviously) to denote a completely non-political term, "scout sniper". If it were a bunch of Marines standing around with common infantry weaponry I'd be worried, but it's quite clearly a Scout Sniper unit posing.

Any chance an Afghanistan related topic can be created without the whole "they shouldn't be there in the first place" political bullshít?

Border-Rat

secondopinion wrote: »

Wasn't he barking mad though?

Eccentric, but his views on Islam are are typically National Socialist. There is no real beef between National Socialists and Islam and never has been. Especially with Ba'athism, for obvious reasons.

gizmo555

Border-Rat wrote: »

Eccentric, but his views on Islam are are typically National Socialist. There is no real beef between National Socialists and Islam and never has been. Especially with Ba'athism, for obvious reasons.

Interesting use of the present tense there.

Manic Moran

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Last time I checked there were German troops in Afghanistan. I suspect that if any of them had posed for a picture with a flag like this it would have been a court martial offence. Someone should have told these little boys there is a real world out there beyond their comic books.

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

galwaycyclist

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

You might be confusing the palm tree with the swastika. In German museums if you come across WW2 aircraft then as a rule, they do not have a swastika on the tail, because that is an outlawed symbol. It is taken that seriously.

secondopinion

galwaycyclist wrote: »

You might be confusing the palm tree with the swastika. In German museums if you come across WW2 aircraft then as a rule, they do not have a swastika on the tail, because that is an outlawed symbol. It is taken that seriously.

It was that type of mind set that got Hitler elected in the first place.

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

According to this report on Bloomberg, this use of the symbol was first reported by members of the unit concerned, who were "disgusted" with it:

German soldiers sent to Afghanistan in 2001 decorated a military vehicle with a symbol resembling the Nazi insignia used during World War II by members of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika-Korps.

Stern magazine published a photograph of an off-road light vehicle bearing on its side a brown palm tree marked with the Iron Cross instead of the Nazi swastika used by the Afrika-Korps, an expeditionary force sent by Adolf Hitler to North Africa.

The symbol ``had not been authorized'' and was removed before the vehicle was shipped to Afghanistan, Defense Ministry spokesman Thomas Raabe said at a government press conference in Berlin today . . .

The photograph in Stern shows the military vehicle belonging to the KSK special operations unit in November 2001 while it was stationed at Camp Justice on the Omani island of Masirah, Stern reported. The elite unit was the first German ground-troop force sent into Afghanistan, where Germany has 2,730 troops attached to the United Nations ISAF mission, all in the north of the country.

The KSK member who revealed the photograph to Stern said some of his peers in the unit ``found it particularly chic'' to drive around with the palm symbol, but that he and others thought it was ``simply disgusting,'' the magazine reported today.

Last week the German parliament's Defense Committee said it would investigate allegations that the KSK in Afghanistan mistreated a German-born Turk who was released from Guantanamo Bay two months ago. Committee members including Winfried Nachtwei of the opposition Green Party said the probe should expand to examine the KSK's conduct in Afghanistan more broadly.

Border-Rat

gizmo555 wrote: »

Interesting use of the present tense there.

They haven't gone away you know.

galwaycyclist

secondopinion wrote: »

It was that type of mind set that got Hitler elected in the first place.

No arguably it was the SS/SA that got Hitler "elected"

gizmo555

Border-Rat wrote: »

gizmo555 wrote: »

Interesting use of the present tense there.

They haven't gone away you know.

I thought Himmler had, at any rate.

Border-Rat

gizmo555 wrote: »

I thought Himmler had, at any rate.

You're mistaken if you think Fascists and National Socialists (As opposed to clownish White Nationalists, BNP-ers or EDL types) don't exist. The first National Socialists that I met were two former Irish military officers.

Manic Moran

Eventually someone is going to get offended by most anything. Ever notice that warplanes don't have pin-up art much any more? It's gotten to the point of being explicitly banned by the RAF.

As for the Afrika Korps symbol, it's something of a martial history thing, and has been repeatedly used.

It was very common for US Marine units posted to the deset, for example, the Desert EGA.




A US Army Psyops unit used to have a variant:



My own brigade of the time, when we went to Iraq in 2003, had a symbol selected by the commanding general with stencils issued to all units with instructions to paint them on all the connexes. No complaints heard. Can't find a photo online, will edit this post and upload when I get home: I was sure to take a photo. (Instead of a swastika, the symbol on the tree was the 81st BCT insignia)

The palm tree is basically a universal symbol of a military in the desert. Here's a couple of US Army WWII versions.





Part of the whole military ethos is taking traditions from history and/or other militaries. Ever notice why the traditional world-wide colour for tankers is black? Red for military police? For someone to be 'disgusted' about the use of a commonly used symbol with the 'evil' bit removed and replaced with the official symbol of the military in question is, put simply, a total lack of a sense of perspective.

Over time, I'm sure every symbol, no matter how innocent, will eventually be hijacked for some evil use. Some history and the 'common sense' filter needs to be applied.

NTM

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

For someone to be 'disgusted' about the use of a commonly used symbol with the 'evil' bit removed and replaced with the official symbol of the military in question is, put simply, a total lack of a sense of perspective.

I guess it's all about context. The palm tree symbol and its association with the Afrika Korps would have gone completely over my head, but in a German army unit with that country's history and the consequent present day extreme sensitivity about overseas deployment of their military, I'd hesitate to call it an over reaction.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Some history and the 'common sense' filter needs to be applied.

Indeed. So going back to the original photo that I started the thread with, what on earth possessed those guys to think it was a good idea to use possibly the most instantly recognisable Nazi emblem after the swastika itself? Why cut such an obvious rod for your own back?

BlaasForRafa

Manic Moran wrote: »

Eventually someone is going to get offended by most anything. Ever notice that warplanes don't have pin-up art much any more? It's gotten to the point of being explicitly banned by the RAF.


Part of the whole military ethos is taking traditions from history and/or other militaries. Ever notice why the traditional world-wide colour for tankers is black? Red for military police? For someone to be 'disgusted' about the use of a commonly used symbol with the 'evil' bit removed and replaced with the official symbol of the military in question is, put simply, a total lack of a sense of perspective.

Over time, I'm sure every symbol, no matter how innocent, will eventually be hijacked for some evil use. Some history and the 'common sense' filter needs to be applied.

NTM

I recall hearing a story a few years ago about the US program to replace the old M1 helmet, apparently after going through various testing programs, the helmet shape they came up with was very similar to the german WW2 era steel helmet. Then (and there could be an element of myth mixed with reality in this) apparently changes were made to the back and side of the helmet to make it look less "germanic"

Wicklowrider

Poccington wrote: »

I hear a civilian company in the US are currently using the Afrika Corps palm tree as their insignia, minus the swastika. TO THE OUTRAGE BUS!

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

Can you honestly compare the Afrika Korps to the SS?
My Grandfather was 8th Army and captured by Afrika Korps. He was treated remarkably well until the Germans ran short of food. They then released their prisoners with a small food parcel and water and told them where their unit was, about half days march. Something tells me the SS would have had a different solution. I was interested in this stuff years ago purely because of the family connection. Don't recall anything negative about their conduct.

galwaycyclist

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Can you honestly compare the Afrika Korps to the SS?
My Grandfather was 8th Army and captured by Afrika Korps. He was treated remarkably well until the Germans ran short of food. They then released their prisoners with a small food parcel and water and told them where their unit was, about half days march. Something tells me the SS would have had a different solution. I was interested in this stuff years ago purely because of the family connection. Don't recall anything negative about their conduct.

Yes but does your reaction not prove the OPs point? If the idea of drawing comparisons between the Afrika Korps and the SS causes discomfort, why then would US Marines draw such comparisons on themselves?

Manic Moran

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I recall hearing a story a few years ago about the US program to replace the old M1 helmet, apparently after going through various testing programs, the helmet shape they came up with was very similar to the german WW2 era steel helmet. Then (and there could be an element of myth mixed with reality in this) apparently changes were made to the back and side of the helmet to make it look less "germanic"

The PASGT was America's standard helmet through the '80s and '90s, and was nicknamed the "Fritz" for a while.

Can you honestly compare the Afrika Korps to the SS?

Which SS? The Waffen SS consisted of some 38 divisions of combat troops including some of the best in the German military. The Allgemeine SS or SS-Totenkopfverbände were directly involved in the Holocaust.



Probably the most celebrated tanker in history, Michael Wittmann, was an SS soldier, there is no indication that he or his unit were anything other than consumate professional soldiers.

NTM

skelliser

A pack of psychopaths and murderers is more apt.

Why would anyone, especially military personal, want to associate themselves with a symbol used by the SS?

Granted there were a small few who were consummate professionals but the SS left a path of destruction and horror which no military serviceman should be looking to associate themselves with. They didnt start out as a military unit either they were more a paramiltary outfit set up when the Nazis got to power in the 20's/30's.

The vast majority of crimes against humanity carried out by the NAZI'S in WW2 were carried out by the SS.

Those of you trying to defend this would do well to read up on the SS.
Especially the antics of Rudolf Höss and Dr. Johann Kremer.

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

Which SS? The Waffen SS consisted of some 38 divisions of combat troops including some of the best in the German military. The Allgemeine SS or SS-Totenkopfverbände were directly involved in the Holocaust.

Probably the most celebrated tanker in history, Michael Wittmann, was an SS soldier, there is no indication that he or his unit were anything other than consumate professional soldiers.

I'm not sure I get the point here, so far as it relates to the thread topic.

Are you really saying that if the USMC unit concerned intended their emblem to echo the original SS one, that would be OK as long as they had the Waffen SS in mind?

If that's not what you mean, I would be interested in your views on their use of the symbol, especially given your experience in the US military.

Rawhead

The Waffen SS and the German mountain divisions are widely recognised as some of the toughest and fiercest soldiers in history. The Waffen SS did commit atrocities in France and there is no point in mentioning the eastern front as both sides sunk to inhuman levels.
The reality is you cannot take away from the fact that they were some of the bravest, most fearless and effective fighting units ever committed to battle. This is the SS that modern soldiers associate with and not the sonderkommando and the camp guards.
Not every German soldier was a ruthless baby killer and the vast majority were the same as their allied counterparts, kids fighting a war. Didn't prince Harry cause trouble a few years back when he wore a Afrika Corp uniform to a fancy dress. Ironic really as he is from German stock.

Manic Moran

gizmo555 wrote: »

I'm not sure I get the point here, so far as it relates to the thread topic.

The point is "why should people always take the negative association?"

NTM

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

The point is "why should people always take the negative association?"

In this instance, because it's completely automatic and involuntary. Your question reminds me of the old joke: "What's the definition of an intellectual? Someone who can listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the Lone Ranger."

The SS emblem used is so indelibly associated with that organisation that the large majority of people couldn't help but make the association. As for comments about the Waffen SS and how many of them were outstanding professional soldiers, does the cause for which they fought not make any difference? After all, the other defining characteristic of all SS members was that they formed what was in effect the military wing of the Nazi Party.

Rawhead

gizmo555 wrote: »

In this instance, because it's completely automatic and involuntary. Your question reminds me of the old joke: "What's the definition of an intellectual? Someone who can listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the Lone Ranger."

The SS emblem used is so indelibly associated with that organisation that the large majority of people couldn't help but make the association. As for comments about the Waffen SS and how many of them were outstanding professional soldiers, does the cause for which they fought not make any difference? After all, the other defining characteristic of all SS members was that they formed what was in effect the military wing of the Nazi Party.

The SS was a Guards company initially. It grew into a regiment and then the 1st SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. It was a bodyguard regiment and throughout history Guards regiments have always held an elite status. The Praetorian Guard in Roman times, Napoleons Imperial Guard, the British Household regiments, all these have always attracted the brightest and best soldiers. The SS became the same and that's why we have the vision of the 6ft tall, blonde, blue eyed, Aryan master race. The truth is in the end they had Dutch, Flemish, Slovak and even Muslim SS divisions. The vast majority of SS soldiers had no more of a allegiance to national socialism than Churchill.

gizmo555

Rawhead wrote: »

The vast majority of SS soldiers had no more of a allegiance to national socialism than Churchill.

You're kidding, right?

galwaycyclist

Rawhead wrote: »

The vast majority of SS soldiers had no more of a allegiance to national socialism than Churchill.

Rolls around laughing

Rawhead

gizmo555 wrote: »

You're kidding, right?

Why would I be kidding. The troops in the main divisions like the Liebenstandarten and Das Reich might have been hardened national socialists initially but by 1943 there were dozens of SS division and as I said they included Flemish, Croats and Muslims, they even tried to form a British SS unit.
So while the popular history likes to portray the SS as a evil Teutonic force the reality is that they were recruiting the very people that they viewed as sub human in the end. The very thing that made them such a fierce fighting force resulted in horrendous losses and meant that they had to constantly replenish their ranks and as the war went on the pool of perfect Aryan candidates became smaller. This resulted in the foreign units and conscription into the SS. This wasn't a volunteer war, you fought or you were hung.
So before rolling around the floor laughing read a few history books.

galwaycyclist

Rawhead wrote: »

Why would I be kidding. The troops in the main divisions like the Liebenstandarten and Das Reich might have been hardened national socialists initially but by 1943 there were dozens of SS division and as I said they included Flemish, Croats and Muslims, they even tried to form a British SS unit.
So while the popular history likes to portray the SS as a evil Teutonic force the reality is that they were recruiting the very people that they viewed as sub human in the end. The very thing that made them such a fierce fighting force resulted in horrendous losses and meant that they had to constantly replenish their ranks and as the war went on the pool of perfect Aryan candidates became smaller. This resulted in the foreign units and conscription into the SS. This wasn't a volunteer war, you fought or you were hung.
So before rolling around the floor laughing read a few history books.

Sorry but I'm still rolling around laughing. To my knowledge much of the intake of the foreign SS units were fascist/anti-bolshevik volunteers. As to the racial purity, the Germans had no trouble with Dutch, Swedes, Flemings, Estonians, French etc. The Croats and Croatian Muslims were also to my knowledge considered racially suitable. There were French SS troops involved in the defence of the Reichstag at the end. Yes towards the end there was conscription into the SS - Gunter Grass being a famous example. However, the later presence of conscripts does not alter the fundamentally political nature of the organisation.

galwaycyclist

galwaycyclist wrote: »

As to the racial purity, the Germans had no trouble with Dutch, Swedes, Flemings, Estonians, French etc. The Croats and Croatian Muslims were also to my knowledge considered racially suitable.

Tut mir leid

Before I get accused of racial stereotyping I should of course have said "As to the racial purity, the National Socialists had no trouble with Dutch, Swedes, Flemings, Estonians, French etc."

Manic Moran

However, the later presence of conscripts does not alter the fundamentally political nature of the organisation.

It also doesn't alter the fact that they tended to be bad-ass military units with a pretty cool symbol. Allied combat troops likely didn't care as much about the political origins of the Waffen SS as much as the fact that if they discovered that they were facing SS units they would be having a tough fight against some of the best the German military had to offer, and the Germans could be pretty good to begin with.

The Iraqi Republican Guard were similarly a politically based unit, but they were also far and away the best units in the Iraqi military with the best equipment, training and motivation. It is not an incompatible concept.

Of course, not all politically based units were necessarily any good. Italian Blackshirt divisions, for example.

Incidently, I also think it's about time we 'reclaimed' the respectability of these symbols. I firmly believe, for example, that the US reintroduces the Swastikas on some of their old unit patches.

45th infantry division, for example, prior to having it changed in WW2.



NTM

Rawhead

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sorry but I'm still rolling around laughing. To my knowledge much of the intake of the foreign SS units were fascist/anti-bolshevik volunteers. As to the racial purity, the Germans had no trouble with Dutch, Swedes, Flemings, Estonians, French etc. The Croats and Croatian Muslims were also to my knowledge considered racially suitable. There were French SS troops involved in the defence of the Reichstag at the end. Yes towards the end there was conscription into the SS - Gunter Grass being a famous example. However, the later presence of conscripts does not alter the fundamentally political nature of the organisation.

I agree 100%. What you seem unwilling or unable to see is that most military people have long been able to acknowledge that while the SS represented the most vile and evil aspects of the Third Reich, they were the finest fighting units of the war at the same time.
My view is that the kind of person who gets offended by this photo would probably be against the war anyway. The first people who will acknowledge the fighting prowess of another military unit are usually the people who fought against them.
One of the numerous ironies of the war was that Hitler stripped the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler of it's cuff band that bore his name in the final days of the war because he deemed that they had not fought hard enough in the defense of Berlin.

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

It also doesn't alter the fact that they tended to be bad-ass military units with a pretty cool symbol.

And they were so elegant too, with their Hugo Boss designed uniforms!

Honestly, Manic, are you having a laugh as well?