How not to win hearts and minds . . .

gizmo555

. . . USMC unit in Afghanistan poses for pic with SS backdrop. WTF were they thinking?

Manach

Leaving aside that if it were the SS symbol (and whatever else about them the Waffen branch were skilled fighters ) at least they are not urinating on anyone :rolleyes:

gizmo555

Manach wrote: »

Leaving aside that if it were the SS symbol . . .

Surely there can't be any doubt about that? Or are you really suggesting they might have just happened to pick an identical symbol by coincidence?

cyrusdvirus

gizmo555 wrote: »

Surely there can't be any doubt about that? Or are you really suggesting they might have just happened to pick an identical symbol by coincidence?

oops...

Poccington

USMC Scout Snipers have been using runic s' for years now.

They're not glorifying the SS, they're not praising them... They're using runic s' to denote the term Scout Sniper, something they're obviously very proud of being.

**** sake. People get outraged for the sake of getting outraged these days.

spank_inferno

People... ie the media and the Helen Lovejoy types seem to want to find offense in a lot of things.

That picture is only offensive if you want it to be offensive.

I think the picture is cool.... and I then get on with my life

gizmo555

The fact that they have been using the symbol for years doesn't make it right, if anything it makes it worse that nobody down the years said "wait a minute . . ."

I'm not in any way suggesting these guys are neo-Nazis, but if they have no understanding of how inappropriate the use of the symbol is, especially in a military context, then you'd have say that at best they're pretty thoughtless and ignorant. (And that, of course, goes double for their superior officers.)

Gooleybag

gizmo555 wrote: »

The fact that they have been using the symbol for years doesn't make it right, if anything it makes it worse that nobody down the years said "wait a minute . . ."

I'm not in any way suggesting these guys are neo-Nazis, but if they have no understanding of how inappropriate the use of the symbol is, especially in a military context, then you'd have say that at best they're pretty thoughtless and ignorant. (And that, of course, goes double for their superior officers.)

So just to clear things up. The offensive part of this picture isn't the ten Heavily armed men displaying their national colours while standing in a foreign land they invaded. It's the fact that they do so with a blue flag with a symbol on it that reminds you of a symbol once used by another group of armed men. Right think I'm all caught up now I'm ready for the exam.

Socialist_Pig

Poccington wrote: »

USMC Scout Snipers have been using runic s' for years now.

since when? before or after the 2nd world war?

. They're using runic s' to denote the term Scout Sniper

or the term Schutzstaffel

EDIT:spot the difference

Poccington

Socialist_Pig wrote: »

since when? before or after the 2nd world war?


or the term Schutzstaffel

EDIT:spot the difference

1st Gulf War is the earliest I personally know of. Runic symbol's were around long before the SS and long after it, the SS don't have a monopoly on it's use.

The SS used runic s' as their symbol... Some Scout Snipers adopted runic s' as an unofficial symbol to denote the term Scout Sniper. The runic s' in both pics are different by the way, the s' in the Scout Sniper photo is thicker and straight, rather than being at an angle. Anyway, the USMC have already come out and said it's unaccceptable and that action has been taken.

People will have to move on and find their next source of outrage... I hear a civilian company in the US are currently using the Afrika Corps palm tree as their insignia, minus the swastika. TO THE OUTRAGE BUS!

Manach

Well, this might sum it up from the Marine PoV.
terminallance.com

gizmo555

Gooleybag wrote: »

So just to clear things up. The offensive part of this picture isn't the ten Heavily armed men displaying their national colours while standing in a foreign land they invaded. It's the fact that they do so with a blue flag with a symbol on it that reminds you of a symbol once used by another group of armed men. Right think I'm all caught up now I'm ready for the exam.

Ah, get off your high horse and read the thread title.

As for those posters who think this is just another example of PC gone wild, the same goes for you. My point is that this is a completely avoidable and serious PR balls-up and to put yourself in the position, as these men have, of having to explain that you're not really Nazis shows extremely poor judgement. It appears that the USMC agrees with me:

A spokeswoman said the icon had been used by the troops to identify themselves as scout snipers, a designation unique to the Marine Corps, and was never intended to have Nazi connotations.

In a statement the Corps said: "Certainly, the use of the 'SS runes' is not acceptable and scout snipers have been addressed concerning this issue. 'SS runes' are prohibited from use as a symbol or any other use."

"Rest assured, the Marine Corps does not allow the use of 'SS runes'."

galwaycyclist

Last time I checked there were German troops in Afghanistan. I suspect that if any of them had posed for a picture with a flag like this it would have been a court martial offence. Someone should have told these little boys there is a real world out there beyond their comic books.

galwaycyclist

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Last time I checked there were German troops in Afghanistan. I suspect that if any of them had posed for a picture with a flag like this it would have been a court martial offence. Someone should have told these little boys there is a real world out there beyond their comic books.

Now that I have had my coffee and thought about it. Given that this flag is an established, recognised, party political symbol, I am minded to assume that it would also be a court martial offence for members of the Irish defence forces to pose such a picture.

secondopinion

Can we be sure these gents aren't Nazis?

On a more serious note, shouldn't western soldiers be able to express any political views they like?

Donny5

secondopinion wrote: »

On a more serious note, shouldn't western soldiers be able to express any political views they like?

No, not in uniform. On their own time, they can do as the like, but on the job, they must be studiously apolitical.

Border-Rat

No real National Socialist would fight in this war. The Taliban or Afghans wouldn't be offended by the symbol anyway. Heinrich Himmler was a much bigger fan of Conservative Muslims than Americans and/or their 'culture'.

secondopinion

Border-Rat wrote: »

No real National Socialist would fight in this war. The Taliban or Afghans wouldn't be offended by the symbol anyway. Heinrich Himmler was a much bigger fan of Conservative Muslims than Americans and/or their 'culture'.

Wasn't he barking mad though?

SocialistPig

Poccington wrote: »

TO THE OUTRAGE BUS!

Dont know were you're getting the OUTRAGE sh1te from.Im not outraged, couldnt care less but the point I was making is that all over the world the 2 runic s' represent and are reckonised as a nazi icon,irrespective if the unit is called scout snipers.

The link from manach somes it up nicely:D

Socialist_Pig

SocialistPig wrote: »

Dont know were you're getting the OUTRAGE sh1te from.Im not outraged, couldnt care less but the point I was making is that all over the world the 2 runic s' represent and are reckonised as a nazi icon,irrespective if the unit is called scout snipers.

The link from manach somes it up nicely:D

lol sorry about that..couldnt remember the password for that account closed now anyways

RMD

It's a symbol which shouldn't be used (quite obviously) to denote a completely non-political term, "scout sniper". If it were a bunch of Marines standing around with common infantry weaponry I'd be worried, but it's quite clearly a Scout Sniper unit posing.

Any chance an Afghanistan related topic can be created without the whole "they shouldn't be there in the first place" political bullshít?

Border-Rat

secondopinion wrote: »

Wasn't he barking mad though?

Eccentric, but his views on Islam are are typically National Socialist. There is no real beef between National Socialists and Islam and never has been. Especially with Ba'athism, for obvious reasons.

gizmo555

Border-Rat wrote: »

Eccentric, but his views on Islam are are typically National Socialist. There is no real beef between National Socialists and Islam and never has been. Especially with Ba'athism, for obvious reasons.

Interesting use of the present tense there.

Manic Moran

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Last time I checked there were German troops in Afghanistan. I suspect that if any of them had posed for a picture with a flag like this it would have been a court martial offence. Someone should have told these little boys there is a real world out there beyond their comic books.

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

galwaycyclist

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

You might be confusing the palm tree with the swastika. In German museums if you come across WW2 aircraft then as a rule, they do not have a swastika on the tail, because that is an outlawed symbol. It is taken that seriously.

secondopinion

galwaycyclist wrote: »

You might be confusing the palm tree with the swastika. In German museums if you come across WW2 aircraft then as a rule, they do not have a swastika on the tail, because that is an outlawed symbol. It is taken that seriously.

It was that type of mind set that got Hitler elected in the first place.

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was a bit of a furore a few years back when it was discovered that German soldiers in Afghanistan were using a variant of the Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles. If I recall the general official response was "you're kidding, people are getting offended by this? OK, fine, in order to take the path of least resistance, we'll tell them to stop using it."

NTM

According to this report on Bloomberg, this use of the symbol was first reported by members of the unit concerned, who were "disgusted" with it:

German soldiers sent to Afghanistan in 2001 decorated a military vehicle with a symbol resembling the Nazi insignia used during World War II by members of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika-Korps.

Stern magazine published a photograph of an off-road light vehicle bearing on its side a brown palm tree marked with the Iron Cross instead of the Nazi swastika used by the Afrika-Korps, an expeditionary force sent by Adolf Hitler to North Africa.

The symbol ``had not been authorized'' and was removed before the vehicle was shipped to Afghanistan, Defense Ministry spokesman Thomas Raabe said at a government press conference in Berlin today . . .

The photograph in Stern shows the military vehicle belonging to the KSK special operations unit in November 2001 while it was stationed at Camp Justice on the Omani island of Masirah, Stern reported. The elite unit was the first German ground-troop force sent into Afghanistan, where Germany has 2,730 troops attached to the United Nations ISAF mission, all in the north of the country.

The KSK member who revealed the photograph to Stern said some of his peers in the unit ``found it particularly chic'' to drive around with the palm symbol, but that he and others thought it was ``simply disgusting,'' the magazine reported today.

Last week the German parliament's Defense Committee said it would investigate allegations that the KSK in Afghanistan mistreated a German-born Turk who was released from Guantanamo Bay two months ago. Committee members including Winfried Nachtwei of the opposition Green Party said the probe should expand to examine the KSK's conduct in Afghanistan more broadly.

Border-Rat

gizmo555 wrote: »

Interesting use of the present tense there.

They haven't gone away you know.

galwaycyclist

secondopinion wrote: »

It was that type of mind set that got Hitler elected in the first place.

No arguably it was the SS/SA that got Hitler "elected"

gizmo555

Border-Rat wrote: »

gizmo555 wrote: »

Interesting use of the present tense there.

They haven't gone away you know.

I thought Himmler had, at any rate.

Border-Rat

gizmo555 wrote: »

I thought Himmler had, at any rate.

You're mistaken if you think Fascists and National Socialists (As opposed to clownish White Nationalists, BNP-ers or EDL types) don't exist. The first National Socialists that I met were two former Irish military officers.