Legal Case Against eToll re: Speed Limits

Evan La Crey

Is there a legal case to be taken against e-Toll for charging us for the use of a Motorway on which motorway-speeds are not permitted. On the M50, on the stretch of road from the Dundrum exit to the Finglas exit (at least), the speed limit is 100km/h. That is the speed limit on national roads, which are free to drive on. We're paying money for the convenience of a motorway asa against a national road. By definition should a motorway in Ireland allow that standard motorway speed limit of 120km/h on the majority of the the road?

I can understand it being reduced at certain accident blackspots, but a 25km section of road be a blackspot? I don't think so!

So why did the city council widen the M50 and then reduce the speed limit by 20km/h? Is it about safety? Then why not reduce the speed limit on all motorways. You exit onto the narrower stretch of motorway that leads to Ashbourne and the speed limit goes up!

Is is it just a case of catching people out with speeding fines; people who feel cheated by the reduced speed limit when they're paying for a motorway?

I've often given out about the fact that the speed limits definitely need to come down on small country roads and there are definitely large roads around the cities and towns on which the speed limit is ridiculously low, like the Stillorgan Dual-Carriageway, where it's 50km/hr and the Finglas Road Dual Carriageway, where it's 60km/h. Why is it so low? Is it just to catch people speeding?

I am glad to see that there might be a review of speed limits on the books, as reported by Evil Clown (Speed limit changes ??) but it might not change the M50 speed limit anyway.

So what I would like to know from the legally-minded members is: could someone sue eToll for charging for a motorway on which they are not supplying the full-services of a motorway? Or could the case be taken against the government for imposing this unfair speed limit?

Robbo

1. The only interest eFlow have is over the Westlink section, a couple of hundred meters.

2. The limit on the M50 is 100kmph for various reasons, chiefly the width of the lanes and it's nature as a ring road dictate this.

You have no standing to sue either eFlow or the NRA for the speed limit being lower than other motorway roads.

I don't use it so much these days but I'd take a relatively free-flowing M50 with 3 lanes with a 100kmph limit over the 2 lane car park which had a 70mph limit a few years ago.

Evan La Crey

Hi Robbo, thanks for your reply. But if the fact that it is a ring road is a factor in the speed limit being 100km, why was there a 70mph and subsequently 120km/h for all those years before the road works? It was always a ring road.

Sure it is faster now because it's wider, but I still think it should be 120km/h like every other motorway that I've been on in Ireland.

But thanks for the info anyway, especially the legal info. I don't have a pending speeding fine, by the way, in case anyone is wondering. It just annoys me intensely when the speed limits seem lower or higher than they should be.

Cheers.

28064212

A motorway means a public road or proposed public road specified to be a motorway in a motorway scheme approved by the Minister

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/print.html#sec43

There is no requirement for a motorway to have a high speed limit

Victor

Evan La Crey wrote: »

could someone sue eToll

There are many words to use, but I'll use "no".

There are many, many incorrect statements and assumptions in your post.

Evan La Crey

Victor wrote: »

There are many words to use, but I'll use "no".

There are many, many incorrect statements and assumptions in your post.

Many, many? Really? Please do go on. Enlighten me as to the many, many statements and assumptions that are wrong because the majority of my post is posed as a question. But if I have erred, I don't want to continue making such silly assumptions. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you'd be so kind as to elaborate.

Oh and cheers for your in depth and thoroughly explanatory answer to the question that has already been answered. Nice one man.

Evan La Crey

But a sincere thanks to all the posters who did answer my questions in a detailed and helpful way. I figured the answer would be as it has been but I was just curious about the technicalities, and wanted to hear it from those in the know, legally.

Cheers,
Evan

Marcusm

The toll is for the use of the bridge rather than the m50 generally. I don't think the road was even a designated motorway when the bridge was built. On this basis, cold you just drive through the east link toll bridge.

BrianD

Evan La Crey wrote: »

Many, many? Really? Please do go on. Enlighten me as to the many, many statements and assumptions that are wrong because the majority of my post is posed as a question. But if I have erred, I don't want to continue making such silly assumptions. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you'd be so kind as to elaborate.

Oh and cheers for your in depth and thoroughly explanatory answer to the question that has already been answered. Nice one man.

First assumption that you made is that you are paying for the use of a motorway and that you assumed that the speed limit should be 120kph. This assumption is incorrect. What it means that the speed limit can be set up to 120kph (or whatever is current by law).

You're paying for the use of the road, irrespective of what grade it is, and if you want to be ultra-specific the section of road between J6 and J8 approximately.

nuac

You have no case;

Evan La Crey

BrianD wrote: »

First assumption that you made is that you are paying for the use of a motorway and that you assumed that the speed limit should be 120kph. This assumption is incorrect. What it means that the speed limit can be set up to 120kph (or whatever is current by law).

You're paying for the use of the road, irrespective of what grade it is, and if you want to be ultra-specific the section of road between J6 and J8 approximately.

Cheers, for the info. Ok, so we've established now that a motorway is not required to have a speed limit of 120km/h and that is not what we're paying for and there is no case for forcing anyone to increase it.

Next thing I'd like to discuss is simply, do people find it annoying that the speed limit is not 120km/h on the M50? Would you rather it be 120km/h. After, regardless of it being a requirement, the speed limit is usually 120km/h on Irish motorways.

BrianD

Evan La Crey wrote: »

Cheers, for the info. Ok, so we've established now that a motorway is not required to have a speed limit of 120km/h and that is not what we're paying for and there is no case for forcing anyone to increase it.

Next thing I'd like to discuss is simply, do people find it annoying that the speed limit is not 120km/h on the M50? Would you rather it be 120km/h. After, regardless of it being a requirement, the speed limit is usually 120km/h on Irish motorways.

It's an urban ring road so it's not what I'd call a m-way in the true sense of the term. I'd expect it to have lower speed limits for safety reasons. The southern legs of the M50 is 120. The difference in journey times between being able to travel at 100 and 120 is not even worth discussing.

Again, as somebody else pointed out the achievable speeds can also be considerably lower than 100.

This isn't really a legal discussion anymore though.

Victor

Apologies for being snappy, but your posts have been fundamentally misguided.

Evan La Crey wrote: »

Is there a legal case to be taken against e-Toll

e-Toll are just doing what they are told within the framework that the DoT and NRA have set up. e-Toll are agents and merely charge the tolls (with relevant discounts) as set out in the bye-laws.

for charging us for the use of a Motorway

A motorway is a road reserved for mechanically propelled vehicles of certain classes.

on which motorway-speeds are not permitted.

120km/h is merely the highest legal speed allowed on a motorway. Lower limits can be applied. The default speed on the Dublin Port Tunnel is 80km/h, which can be reduced to 50km/h in the event of an incident. So 100km/h is a perfectly legal motorway speed limit.

On the M50, on the stretch of road from the Dundrum exit to the Finglas exit (at least), the speed limit is 100km/h. That is the speed limit on national roads, which are free to drive on.

Motorways are a sub-set of national roads. 100km/h is merely the highest legal speed allowed on a rural, single carriageway non-motorway and the default on a rural, non-motorway national route. Lower limits can be applied. Speed limits from 30-120km/h apply to various sections of national route.

We're paying money for the convenience of a motorway asa against a national road.

No, you are paying for using the bridge.

N4-N3 via the Westlink: 3.3km http://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Exit+1&daddr=Unknown+road&hl=en&ll=53.373088,-6.377563&spn=0.050183,0.169086&sll=53.357096,-6.381769&sspn=0.006275,0.021136&geocode=FSMqLgMdro6e_w%3BFUaNLgMdBuOe_w&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=16&t=m&z=13

N4-N3 via Chapelizod: 8.3km http://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Lucan+Rd%2FN4&daddr=Unknown+road&hl=en&ll=53.362846,-6.364517&spn=0.100389,0.338173&sll=53.362743,-6.378851&sspn=0.025097,0.084543&geocode=FQopLgMdoIqe_w%3BFUaNLgMdBuOe_w&dirflg=ht&mra=dme&mrsp=0&sz=14&t=m&z=12

By definition should a motorway in Ireland allow that standard motorway speed limit of 120km/h on the majority of the the road?

No, by definition, a motorway is a road reserved for mechanically propelled vehicles of certain classes. Most have two multi-lane carriageways, others have 1, 3 or more carriageways. Some have two lanes total. Most have grade separation, some have traffic lights and roundabouts. In Ireland, they have a default 120km/h speed limit, but it is a feature, not a requirement.

I can understand it being reduced at certain accident blackspots, but a 25km section of road be a blackspot? I don't think so!

It is the busiest section of road in the country. Higher speed would reduce its capacity as there would need to be longer gaps between vehicles. The maximum capacity of a road is about 60km/h

So why did the city council widen the M50 and then reduce the speed limit by 20km/h?

The city council only controls the section from the M1-M50 junction to the port (most of it the tunnel). It was the county councils that did the upgrade and set the 100km/h speed limit.

Is it about safety?

That and capacity.

Then why not reduce the speed limit on all motorways.

You could do that, but the balance of convenience is otherwise.

You exit onto the narrower stretch of motorway that leads to Ashbourne and the speed limit goes up!

A wide road does not necessarily equal a safe road. The big difference is that the M2 has much less traffic, fewer junctions and less weaving traffic.

Is is it just a case of catching people out with speeding fines;

The councils don't benefit from speed fines.

people who feel cheated by the reduced speed limit when they're paying for a motorway?

They mustn't have much to worry about then.

I've often given out about the fact that the speed limits definitely need to come down on small country roads and there are definitely large roads around the cities and towns on which the speed limit is ridiculously low, like the Stillorgan Dual-Carriageway, where it's 50km/hr

Do you mean at Donnybrook Church, just before the traffic lights?

and the Finglas Road Dual Carriageway, where it's 60km/h. Why is it so low?

Traffic lights, bus stops, pedestrians, cyclists .... oh, and maximum capacity.

So what I would like to know from the legally-minded members is: could someone sue eToll for charging for a motorway on which they are not supplying the full-services of a motorway?

What service isn't provided?

Or could the case be taken against the government for imposing this unfair speed limit?

It is the councils that have imposed the speed limits, not the government.

Marcusm

Evan La Crey wrote: »

Next thing I'd like to discuss is simply, do people find it annoying that the speed limit is not 120km/h on the M50? Would you rather it be 120km/h. After, regardless of it being a requirement, the speed limit is usually 120km/h on Irish motorways.

personally I'd prefer if they enforced lane discipline. Every time I travel on the m50, I shudder at the ****e driving which will ultimately make it more dangerous.