Do you believe in GOD and the Lord JESUS CHRIST?

i_am_job

Do you believe in GOD and the Lord JESUS CHRIST?

gimmebroadband

What is the purpose of your question, seeing that this is a Christianity forum and all................?

RichieC

All caps lord too.

And no.

al28283

I believe in Jesus, seems like a nice guy.
But not God, he seems very petty and insecure.

Zombrex

al28283 wrote: »

I believe in Jesus, seems like a nice guy.
But not God, he seems very petty and insecure.

The entire teachings of Jesus are based on the assertion that there is a God. If you don't believe that what part of Jesus do you believe in?

tommy2bad

Zombrex wrote: »

The entire teachings of Jesus are based on the assertion that there is a God. If you don't believe that what part of Jesus do you believe in?

Could a just been a nice guy, you know like Gandi or that Native American chief, forget his name, you know cool n stuff not like God making all thees demands and shooting lightning an hell n all.
Peace man
Sarcasm off;
Isn't it possible to be able to relate to Jesus without beliving in the concept of god.
A bit like non alcoholic beer I know(no matter how nice it is it wont do anything for you) but in a way thats what the incarnation is about to make God visible in the world.

al28283

Zombrex wrote: »

The entire teachings of Jesus are based on the assertion that there is a God. If you don't believe that what part of Jesus do you believe in?

I said I believe in Jesus, not in the teachings of Jesus. Similarly I can believe George Lucas exists without believing in Luke Skywalker

i_am_job

al28283 wrote: »

I said I believe in Jesus, not in the teachings of Jesus. Similarly I can believe George Lucas exists without believing in Luke Skywalker

Do you believe he was GOD

or do you believe in GOD at all?

al28283

i_am_job wrote: »

Do you believe he was GOD

or do you believe in GOD at all?

I've already said I don't.
I believe Jesus existed and was a nice guy with some good ideas about how people should treat others

Lady Chuckles

tommy2bad wrote: »

Could a just been a nice guy, you know like Gandi or that Native American chief, forget his name, you know cool n stuff not like God making all thees demands and shooting lightning an hell n all.
Peace man
Sarcasm off;
Isn't it possible to be able to relate to Jesus without beliving in the concept of god.
A bit like non alcoholic beer I know(no matter how nice it is it wont do anything for you) but in a way thats what the incarnation is about to make God visible in the world.

I agree with you
I do think it is possible to believe in Jesus without believing in God. Although, I don't quite understand the last sentence in your post there... that could be down to my poor vocabulary though

furiousox

al28283 wrote: »

..I believe Jesus existed and was a nice guy with some good ideas about how people should treat others

Or...he may well have been the Joe Coleman of his day, just sayin'.

PDN

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

I agree with you
I do think it is possible to believe in Jesus without believing in God. Although, I don't quite understand the last sentence in your post there... that could be down to my poor vocabulary though

The problem with this is that it means rejecting what we are told about Jesus in our main sources (the books of the New Testament). If you reject them then what basis do you have for believing anything about Jesus?

It seems to me as if people just dream up some nice ideas of what a man might be like and then call that concept 'Jesus' even though there is no basis for thinking Jesus was like that concept.

al28283

furiousox wrote: »

Or...he may well have been the Joe Coleman of his day, just sayin'.

It's unlikely the would have written about him if he were.
I believe he existed, I believe he believed what he said, and that others followed him and worshipped him. It doesn't mean to say I believe he was right

who what when

i_am_job wrote: »

Do you believe in GOD and the Lord JESUS CHRIST?

I believe that there is some form of creator but a 'God' in the christian sense of the word? No, absolutely not.
Jesus, as a man - yes I do believe he existed.
Jesus, son of God, risen form the dead etc - no thats just a load of crap!

RichieC

Seems to me Jesus was a liberal of his day. Yet you won't find a group of peiple with more disdain for liberals than modern day Christians.

If Gods really out there I say it's high time he send another son to drag christians into the 21st century. If he's the real deal sure the muslims and jews be coming along and it will be cumbyeya time for the middle east.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

PDN

RichieC wrote: »

Seems to me Jesus was a liberal of his day. Yet you won't find a group of peiple with more disdain for liberals than modern day Christians.

As a Christian, a liberal and a socialist, I find your absurd generalisation to be highly amusing.

RichieC

PDN wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

Seems to me Jesus was a liberal of his day. Yet you won't find a group of peiple with more disdain for liberals than modern day Christians.

As a Christian, a liberal and a socialist, I find your absurd generalisation to be highly amusing.

No offence PDN but in the grand scheme youre a rare breed, this being the case.

Id have far less trouble with religion if there was more like you.

PDN

RichieC wrote: »

No offence PDN but in the grand scheme youre a rare breed, this being the case.

I don't think I am. I know many people like me. The problem is that mass media writes sensational stories about 'Christians' and others swallow this stereotype.

Let's take just one example - the USA. Millions of Christians voted Democrat in the last US Presidential election. During the primaries and the campaign Obama and Hillary Clinton both spoke at far more church events than any of the Republican candidates. Yet all I read about in the media is 'the Christian right'.

Christianity comprises a wide range of people of all views. It includes narrow minded bigots such as Fred Phelps, but it also includes mass movements such as Martin Luther King and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

zuroph

PDN wrote: »

I don't think I am. I know many people like me. The problem is that mass media writes sensational stories about 'Christians' and others swallow this stereotype.

Let's take just one example - the USA. Millions of Christians voted Democrat in the last US Presidential election. During the primaries and the campaign Obama and Hillary Clinton both spoke at far more church events than any of the Republican candidates. Yet all I read about in the media is 'the Christian right'.

Christianity comprises a wide range of people of all views. It includes narrow minded bigots such as Fred Phelps, but it also includes mass movements such as Martin Luther King and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

In this example, you've helped prove the opposite of what you set out to. It makes sense for them to dedicate more of their time speaking in church events, as this is where votes can be won by changing peoples opinions, they're hardly just going to canvas to those votes they already have. The republicans on the other hand, wouldnt need to dedicate as much time to church group events, as they count it as a safe vote.

PDN

zuroph wrote: »

In this example, you've helped prove the opposite of what you set out to. It makes sense for them to dedicate more of their time speaking in church events, as this is where votes can be won by changing peoples opinions, they're hardly just going to canvas to those votes they already have. The republicans on the other hand, wouldnt need to dedicate as much time to church group events, as they count it as a safe vote.

Not at all. Clinton and Obama spoke in scores of black churches during the primaries because there was uncertainty as to which Democratic candidate the churchgoers would support.

After Obama won the nomination, the aim was to make sure that a core element of the democratic vote actually turned out on election day.

The facts are that an African-American is statistically much more likely to be a practising Christian than a white American - and (notwithstanding figures such as Herman Cain) they overwhelmingly vote Democrat.

smcgiff

I believe Jesus existed, but don't think he's a god. Not even sure Jesus believed he was a god.

tommy2bad

smcgiff wrote: »

I believe Jesus existed, but don't think he's a god. Not even sure Jesus believed he was a god.

No He did, you can read it that He knew from the very beginning or that it was something He came to realize but He definitely believed he was the Christ.

Zombrex

tommy2bad wrote: »

Isn't it possible to be able to relate to Jesus without beliving in the concept of god.
A bit like non alcoholic beer I know(no matter how nice it is it wont do anything for you) but in a way thats what the incarnation is about to make God visible in the world.

Depends on what you mean by "relate". As an atheist I relate to Jesus as someone who I think probably was a real person, probably a typical cult leader, probably had various human like issues etc.

But relating to him as a flawed human is a bit different to believing in him, ie believing what he said.

Lady Chuckles

PDN wrote: »

The problem with this is that it means rejecting what we are told about Jesus in our main sources (the books of the New Testament). If you reject them then what basis do you have for believing anything about Jesus?

It seems to me as if people just dream up some nice ideas of what a man might be like and then call that concept 'Jesus' even though there is no basis for thinking Jesus was like that concept.

I mean if your an atheist or a non-christian
If you are indeed a christian it's weird if you believe in Jesus but not in God.... Kinda wrecks the whole idea

But it makes sense, for a non-christian, to believe there was a nice guy called Jesus back in the day. They may not believe he performed miracles and so on, but they still believe in his existence. I think that's really cool and I don't see how it would be a no-no to believe in Jesus but not in God.

Unless you claim to be a christian of course. Then it makes no sense whatsoever

Zombrex

al28283 wrote: »

I said I believe in Jesus, not in the teachings of Jesus. Similarly I can believe George Lucas exists without believing in Luke Skywalker

Well generally when someone says they believe in someone that means they believe in what they say, not they believe they existed.

Zombrex

al28283 wrote: »

I believe Jesus existed and was a nice guy with some good ideas about how people should treat others

You believe that based on what exactly?

zuroph

Zombrex wrote: »

Well generally when someone says they believe in someone that means they believe in what they say, not they believe they existed.

like "I believe in ghosts?" "I Believe in Santa Claus" etc? no, they are saying they believe they exist(ed).

tommy2bad

Zombrex wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by "relate". As an atheist I relate to Jesus as someone who I think probably was a real person, probably a typical cult leader, probably had various human like issues etc.

But relating to him as a flawed human is a bit different to believing in him, ie believing what he said.

I d love you to expand on that first bold bit
He certainly had real human issues. Too many Christians seem to think He didn't scratch his balls, fart or smell bad from sweat. Jesus was human fully and completely, not an avatar or god playing at being human.
He is as available to someone who doesn't believe in God as to some one who dose.

Zombrex

zuroph wrote: »

like "I believe in ghosts?" "I Believe in Santa Claus" etc? no, they are saying they believe they exist(ed).

You have picked two supernatural entities. Believing in ghosts and believing in Santa Claus both mean to believe in the supernatural claims of them.

If someone said I believe in Santa Claus your next question wouldn't be Ah so you think he exists, but do you believe he flys around the world every Christmas night delivering toys. That would be a given. Santa Claus is an concept that doesn't separate the actual person from the supernatural things he achieves.

Or put it another way, if you said "I believe in Hitler" no one would assume you meant "I believe Hitler existed". You would saying you believe in Hitler as a leader, in his ideas.

Believing in something is to believe in the concepts around that thing, not merely believing in the things existences divorced from these concepts.

Zombrex

tommy2bad wrote: »

I d love you to expand on that first bold bit

There is enough in the Bible to compare Jesus to other cult leaders, and given the description of his ministry he seems to have followed a pretty standard MO of a cult leader. From that you can draw some preliminary assumptions about Jesus the man, his motivations, his psychology what he would have been like etc.

The Christianity forum though, where Jesus is considered God, might not be the best place to get into this. My point was simply that I find the idea that Jesus was simply a "nice guy" rather ridiculous.

tommy2bad

Zombrex;
Believing in something is to believe in the concepts around that thing, not merely believing in the things existences divorced from these concepts.

Indeed and one time to say you believe in God didn't imply belief in actual existence of God it would have been understood to mean 'trust' or 'faith' rather than a certainty that God exists like the certainty that the house you live in exists. God was seen as inspiring and salvation as something to aspire to. Now we see God as definitive and salvation as the return on investment.
God and salvation are hard concepts to grasp and we don't help by appropriating language that is better suited for practical matters. I think music and art along with poetry are also needed to qualifies the prose of God.
Oh hey, the bible is full of metaphor and poetry and tall tales, churches are full of music and pictures, I guess I'm not the only one to feel this way.

Benny_Cake

RichieC wrote: »

PDN wrote: »

RichieC wrote: »

Seems to me Jesus was a liberal of his day. Yet you won't find a group of peiple with more disdain for liberals than modern day Christians.

As a Christian, a liberal and a socialist, I find your absurd generalisation to be highly amusing.

No offence PDN but in the grand scheme youre a rare breed, this being the case.

Id have far less trouble with religion if there was more like you.

In fairness Richie, there are quite a lot of Christians with views that could be described as fairly left-wing, I'd consider myself one of them. Groups such as the Catholic Workers, the Quakers and publications such as Sojourners magazine are classic examples, but you'd find people of a liberal to left-wing bent across the range of denominations. The marrying of evangelical Christianity with Republican style political conservatism exemplified by the likes of groups such as Focus on the Family seems to me to be a peculiarly American phenomenon.

al28283

Zombrex wrote: »

Well generally when someone says they believe in someone that means they believe in what they say, not they believe they existed.

No it doesn't

al28283

I believe in the holocaust, meaning I believe it happened, not that I agree with what went on.

Zombrex

al28283 wrote: »

No it doesn't

I've already given examples highlighting that it does. You can take the advice or you can leave it, personally I don't really care.

And FYI, the holocaust isn't a person. Like I said, saying you believe in Hitler, or Bertie Ahern, or Obama would not be taken by anyone to be a statement that you merely believe they existed. People driving around in America with "I believe in Obama" bumper stickers are not merely making a statement about his existence.

sh__93

Ironically, I used to believe in God until I read the bible!

And the post earlier. If he said he thought jesus was right he would have said he believes Jesus. He said he believes in Jesus which means he thinks he existed. It's pretty simple really!

Me, i have no idea whether or not he existed. He, or somebody like him probably did exist for so many people to write about him.

However, if he did exist i think he might have been crazy! OR maybe he was told by someone he was the son of 'God' and was just really gullible. And if he did exist he must have been a lovely chap. Just my opinion.

al28283

Yes but you're examples aren't very good and I disagree that most people would take the meaning as you claim they would. Do you believe in Dinosaurs?

Either way, the semantics of what the meaning of the phrase is generally used as doesn't make me believe in God any more.

You may find the idea that Jesus was simply a nice guy ridiculous but that's what I believe. I don't really see why others would write so much about him if he wasn't very influential to their particular lives, and if he were a zealous, maniacal cult leader I think that would probably have come up somewhere.

Zombrex

al28283 wrote: »

Yes but you're examples aren't very good and I disagree that most people would take the meaning as you claim they would. Do you believe in Dinosaurs?

Again you keep contradicting me by using examples that are not people. But anyway, I'm long past caring. I think we all can agree it is now clear what you meant.

al28283 wrote: »

You may find the idea that Jesus was simply a nice guy ridiculous but that's what I believe. I don't really see why others would write so much about him if he wasn't very influential to their particular lives, and if he were a zealous, maniacal cult leader I think that would probably have come up somewhere.

It did come up some where, we have the Christian religion followed by millions of people, which is based around the belief that Jesus is the Son of God, not simply a nice guy.

Do you believe jesus is being mis-represented in the New Testament?

Lady Chuckles

Zombrex wrote: »

It did come up some where, we have the Christian religion followed by millions of people, which is based around the belief that Jesus is the Son of God, not simply a nice guy.

Do you believe jesus is being mis-represented in the New Testament?

Al28283 never claimed to be a Christian

al28283

Zombrex wrote: »

Again you keep contradicting me by using examples that are not people. But anyway, I'm long past caring. I think we all can agree it is now clear what you meant.



It did come up some where, we have the Christian religion followed by millions of people, which is based around the belief that Jesus is the Son of God, not simply a nice guy.

Do you believe jesus is being mis-represented in the New Testament?

Yes, I do, although that is not to say it is on purpose.

This is getting off the point though. The OP didn't ask if we believed in the Christian religion.

Benny_Cake

Is it possible to believe that Jesus was just a nice guy? Yes it is, the Unitarians emerged from such beliefs. Is it possible to believe that based on an honest reading of the Bible and of the early Church fathers? Probably not, and I say that as someone who is far from being a biblical literalist.

Zombrex

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

Al28283 never claimed to be a Christian

Zombrex never claimed Al28283 did claim to be a Christian

It seems to be me that people just invent the Jesus that they would like, divorced from either that the New Testament is trying to convey, or from the non-religious realities of what a person would have to be like to start and run a religion like that in the first place.

al28283

Zombrex wrote: »

Zombrex never claimed Al28283 did claim to be a Christian

It seems to be me that people just invent the Jesus that they would like, divorced from either that the New Testament is trying to convey, or from the non-religious realities of what a person would have to be like to start and run a religion like that in the first place.

That's not inventing, that's interpreting.
If you don't believe in God then you can't accept that Jesus was his son, that doesn't mean you don't believe he existed, it just means you don't believe the Bible is a true and accurate account.
It's not a case of either believing everything or nothing, it's not black and white.

Zorbas

people are born bad - thats why they need to be saved. Imagine that?

al28283

Zorbas wrote: »

people are born bad - thats why they need to be saved. Imagine that?

Can you explain how that has anything at all to do with what we are talking about?

PDN

al28283 wrote: »

That's not inventing, that's interpreting.
If you don't believe in God then you can't accept that Jesus was his son, that doesn't mean you don't believe he existed, it just means you don't believe the Bible is a true and accurate account.
It's not a case of either believing everything or nothing, it's not black and white.

True, but the only available sources indicate that Jesus taught about God and saw Himself as being in a special relationship with God.

Now, if you don't believe in God then you can choose to believe that Jesus was a bit of a deluded fool who essentially had a good heart. But to portray Him as a good man, without considering all he taught, is to construct a Jesus of your own imagination.

Once you start rejecting what the Bible says about Jesus' teaching, then you might as well argue that Jesus was a 7 foot tall chimney sweep.

Zorbas

PDN wrote: »

.

Once you start rejecting what the Bible says about Jesus' teaching, then you might as well argue that Jesus was a 7 foot tall chimney sweep.

I realise you are a moderator but do you not think that could be offensive to some people?

al28283

Zorbas wrote: »

I realise you are a moderator but do you not think that could be offensive to some people?

He's talking about people who don't believe the Bible is true, these people are unlikely to be offended

No i DONT

tommy2bad

Zorbas wrote: »

I realise you are a moderator but do you not think that could be offensive to some people?

How? without offending 7 foot chimney sweeps?

tommy2bad

bluewolf wrote: »

No i DONT

Neither do I, no wait maybe I do?
Don't what?