LPG (autogas) Garages around Dublin?

SyntheticPaddy

So I'm thinking of buying a LPG converted car and was wondering if anyone knows of any garages around Dublin that sells LPG?

I've tried the Calorgas and the Flowgas websites. There seems to be one garage between them listed in Artane. However, I phoned around with no luck finding it.


Surely the nearest LPG pump can't be Drogheda?

djrichard

There is a new garage thats started up. They also do the conversions to LPG. They are MUCH MUCH cheaper than Flogas. I think they charge something like 69c per litre. They are a little outside of Dublin, in Kilcullen. I guess its worth it depending on where you actualy live!

Here is a link to their website.

http://www.vv-tech-lpg.com/index.html

Hope this helps.

SyntheticPaddy

Cheers djrichard I've heard about these guys, unfortunately they're out the M9 which is a bit far but I'll definitely be using them when I'm anywhere near that area.

I still can't believe there isn't a place that sells LPG in Dublin!

kerosene

Slightly off to[pic but how much does it cost to convert a car to lpg and what exactly has to be done.

voojeq

That depends on your type of car, if its an oldish one then its going to be around 500 euros, if its new type of engine then prices start at 1000 euro. Im not a mechanic myself but in my country one of my mates wanted to have this installed and the man said that it depends on type of (exhaust gases) collector in your car, if its plastic (installed in new cars) then youll have to prepare for at least a grand, if its metal ( installed in old cars) then its not going to cost that much.

Also ive found out that the reason why LPG is not so popular here and UK is that the governments will prolly hit you with nice bit of road tax for using cheaper fuel according to wikipedia, also someone mentioned that here previously.

dainius

There is a small filling station in jamestown b.pk, finglas, next to irish school of motoring(ism). They gona open more stations across dublin soon cos they sell Lpg conversion kits as well do conversion training. Just finished training yeasterday, first car to convert will be my own p407.

dainius

Conversion is around 1200-1300 euro and it will pay of for itself after 20k kms. After that its pure saving. The price of LPG is around 0.80-1.00 euro p/litre today, so do your maths

ted1

Price per litre may be cheaper but what's in calorific value? I believe its lower than petrol and diesel.

CiniO

ted1 wrote: »

Price per litre may be cheaper but what's in calorific value? I believe its lower than petrol and diesel.

That's why fuel consumption on LPG should be about 5% - 10% higher than on petrol, if it's 4th generation conversion (LPG injectors fitted), and adjusted properly.

SyntheticPaddy

dainius wrote: »

There is a small filling station in jamestown b.pk, finglas, next to irish school of motoring(ism). They gona open more stations across dublin soon cos they sell Lpg conversion kits as well do conversion training. Just finished training yeasterday, first car to convert will be my own p407.

Do you know how much these fellas are charging for a litre?

Matt Simis

voojeq wrote: »

Also ive found out that the reason why LPG is not so popular here and UK is that the governments will prolly hit you with nice bit of road tax for using cheaper fuel according to wikipedia, also someone mentioned that here previously.

Please dont post completely unsubstantiated facts.
Thats not true here (Motor Tax is on CC pre-2008 or CO2 from manufacturer 2008+) and Im fairly sure not true in the UK. LPG is taxed as a motor fuel in both countries, nothing to do with annual Road/Motor tax.

voojeq

Matt Simis wrote: »

Please dont post completely unsubstantiated facts.
Thats not true here (Motor Tax is on CC pre-2008 or CO2 from manufacturer 2008+) and Im fairly sure not true in the UK. LPG is taxed as a motor fuel in both countries, nothing to do with annual Road/Motor tax.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68949610

I take it back then, lads were talking about NL here. My bad.

Matt Simis

voojeq wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68949610

I take it back then, lads were talking about NL here. My bad.

Thats ok, I blame keithclancy, he needs to find a more local forum to talk taxes. :P

slimjimmc

SyntheticPaddy wrote: »

So I'm thinking of buying a LPG converted car and was wondering if anyone knows of any garages around Dublin that sells LPG?

I've tried the Calorgas and the Flowgas websites. There seems to be one garage between them listed in Artane. However, I phoned around with no luck finding it.


Surely the nearest LPG pump can't be Drogheda?

More outlets http://ilpga.ie/autogas-outlets.php#Dublin

l_aga

slimjimmc wrote: »

More outlets http://ilpga.ie/autogas-outlets.php#Dublin

This list is out of date unfortunately.
There is a map of LPG stations http://maps.google.pl/maps/ms?msid=211683993263980312898.0004b49a2322303a2048b&msa=0
being developed by Polish people.
Green - LPG stations confirmed (people tanked there)
Blue - locations found on the Internet - not confirmed yet.

Maybe you know any other locations we could add to this map?

Inbred

Does anybody know what's the story after having the stuff installed? I mean, like the NCT/tax/insurance. I fancy a jap petrol car and the LPG appeals (there's a filling station nearby here).

Del2005

Inbred wrote: »

Does anybody know what's the story after having the stuff installed? I mean, like the NCT/tax/insurance. I fancy a jap petrol car and the LPG appeals (there's a filling station nearby here).

No difference to tax or NCT. You must inform your insurance company of any modifications to the car.

mfceiling

Friend of mine bought a 2004 range rover a few weeks ago.

4.4 v8...top of the range with every extra you could imagine.

Got it converted for LPG but is worried about driving it down south because of the lack of places selling it.

He paid 10k sterling for it....serious wagon...took it for a spin, mental acceleration for something the size of a house!!

Very interesting and thanks for posting the link to vv-tech.

I wonder how long it will stay at 69 C per litre ?

So that becomes 75 cent based on 10% efficiency loss ?

Still a great way of getting to work, there are a few cars converted for sale in Ireland that would really reduce our fuel bills.

But most of the cars are older and based the older tax system and only 1.4-1.6 L engines non turbo. Would be slow enough.

How long before tax is increased on lpg ?

Still nothing compares to Electricity for cheap motoring, if only the cars were cheaper!

fryup

does LPG cars lack.....power

Anan1

mfceiling wrote: »

Got it converted for LPG but is worried about driving it down south because of the lack of places selling it.

?? It'll run on petrol too, surely?

mullingar

Lpg has 26 MJ/litre
petrol has 35 MJ/litre

In layman's terms, you need 33% more lpg than petrol to get the same power.

If lpg is 70c/litre, petrol needs to be 0.93c/l to break even, but at 1.63/l today that's some saving!!!

mullingar

mullingar wrote: »

Lpg has 26 MJ/litre
petrol has 35 MJ/litre

In layman's terms, you need 33% more lpg than petrol to get the same power.

If lpg is 70c/litre, petrol needs to be 0.93c/l to break even, but at 1.63/l today that's some saving!!!

33% more for the same power, but how about the same mpg ?

I thought it was 10% less efficient than petrol, so you need 10% more to get the same distance ? making it about 75 c litre

mullingar

Deleted User wrote: »

33% more for the same power, but how about the same mpg ?

I thought it was 10% less efficient than petrol, so you need 10% more to get the same distance ? making it about 75 c litre

Simple maths: for the same power your MPG will go down by approximately 33% with lpg.

If you were getting 30 mpg with petrol, which is 9.4 l/100km, lpg will get 12.5 l/100km which is 22.5 mpg

Vertakill

mullingar wrote: »

Simple maths: for the same power your MPG will go down by approximately 33% with lpg

In practice, it's a lot less than 33%. I think 15% is more accurate based on my brother's experience over the past year using it.

mullingar

Possibly. There are a lot of other efficiencies and in-efficiencies that each fuel brings to engines. Eg Lpg runs cooler so less wasted thermal energy.

how much power did he lose?

Inbred

My father drove his last couple of cars on LPG, some 750k miles in total. 10l/100km petrol or 11l/100km LPG. His last car was written off, otherwise I'd get it off him. No power loss to speak of (1.4l 8v 75BHP).

Vertakill

mullingar wrote: »

Possibly. There are a lot of other efficiencies and in-efficiencies that each fuel brings to engines. Eg Lpg runs cooler so less wasted thermal energy.

how much power did he lose?

Little or none as far as I know. Well, the difference was negligible for him as the car has 330ish BHP.
I couldn't tell the difference when driving it if it was on petrol or gas and you can swap over at the flick of a switch without any stutter or anything.

Matt Simis

mullingar wrote: »

Possibly. There are a lot of other efficiencies and in-efficiencies that each fuel brings to engines. Eg Lpg runs cooler so less wasted thermal energy.
how much power did he lose?

You must be thinking of E85, as LPG runs hotter, not cooler than Petrol.
The 33% figure based on calorific value is very misleading as it ignores the fact the octane rating on LPG is 112 vs 95 or whatever on most petrol. This means that ignition advance could be set way more aggressively on LPG and on more modern (higher compression) engines, LPG becomes even more efficient (as that high octane resists knocking). Some theorise that torque is higher and more accessible on LPG but peak power is 5% lower.


I cannot tell any difference running my Audi S8 (340bhp stock, remapped, 4.2 V8) on LPG vs petrol. Fuel consumption seems only 10% worse, at worst (I tend to drive more frugally on expensive petrol, so its not a fair comparison).

mullingar

Matt Simis wrote: »

You must be thinking of E85, as LPG runs hotter, not cooler than Petrol.
The 33% figure based on calorific value is very misleading as it ignores the fact the octane rating on LPG is 112 vs 95 or whatever on most petrol. This means that ignition advance could be set way more aggressively on LPG and on more modern (higher compression) engines, LPG becomes even more efficient (as that high octane resists knocking). Some theorise that torque is higher and more accessible on LPG but peak power is 5% lower.


I cannot tell any difference running my Audi S8 (340bhp stock, remapped, 4.2 V8) on LPG vs petrol. Fuel consumption seems only 10% worse, at worst (I tend to drive more frugally on expensive petrol, so its not a fair comparison).

I know lpg does burn cooler than petrol as it's got a much lower calorific value so I did a quick Google and found this that shows it does burn colder

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/VSR.html

Good website.

It also explains the overall loss is approx 15% when all loses/gains are included ( Inc power losses)

Matt Simis

mullingar wrote: »

I know lpg does burn cooler than petrol as it's got a much lower calorific value so I did a quick Google and found this that shows it does burn colder

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/VSR.html

Good website.

It also explains the overall loss is approx 15% when all loses/gains are included ( Inc power losses)

Bad choice of reference site unfortunately.
Google deeper, that guy and that site are well known and not in a good way! What would the calorific value have to do with combustion temp vs petrol!? They burn different temps as they are different fuels and LPG burns more slowly.

http://www.teamgreenautogas.com.au/default.asp?id=FAQ#ans27
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6909&start=0
http://www.exceptionalenergy.com/en_GB/media-room/q-a

The difference in temp is actually minimal, but in car conversions its definitely hotter, not cooler.

kerten

Matt Simis wrote: »

Bad choice of reference site unfortunately.
Google deeper, that guy and that site are well known and not in a good way! What would the calorific value have to do with combustion temp vs petrol!? They burn different temps as they are different fuels and LPG burns more slowly.

http://www.teamgreenautogas.com.au/default.asp?id=FAQ#ans27
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6909&start=0
http://www.exceptionalenergy.com/en_GB/media-room/q-a

The difference in temp is actually minimal, but in car conversions its definitely hotter, not cooler.

+1

LPG definitely runs hotter than petrol. I know cases in my home country about melting valves(aluminum alloy ones mainly) after LPG conversion due to higher temperature. That issue was specific to certain engines though.

mullingar

OK, after a lot more reading lpg does burn cooler, about 50C, but has very poor cooling properties when vapurised which results in a net raise of temperature in the engine .

This apparently is what damages valve seals.

Open to correction!!!

keithclancy

mullingar wrote: »

OK, after a lot more reading lpg does burn cooler, about 50C, but has very poor cooling properties when vapurised which results in a net raise of temperature in the engine .

This apparently is what damages valve seals.

Open to correction!!!

AFAIK its due the the Lubrication properties, in certain engines you need to stick in an additive

Something like this:
http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/valve-saver-fluid.html

On the Dutch forums i've heard its the Jap and Ford engines are more prone to Valve problems after LPG/CNG Conversion.

kerten

keithclancy wrote: »

AFAIK its due the the Lubrication properties, in certain engines you need to stick in an additive

Something like this:
http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/valve-saver-fluid.html

On the Dutch forums i've heard its the Jap and Ford engines are more prone to Valve problems after LPG/CNG Conversion.

+1

As far as I know LPG doesn't have lubrication(means cooling down chamber) capabilities of Petrol and this exposes valves to higher temperature as well.

So overall I would expect to loose about 10-15 % mpg yes ?

Some people convert high power 6 pot + engines, but surely the fuel consumption would hardly be worth it ?

So I should not consider converting my prius if Jap cars are having problems with it ?

It's easy for me to get 62 mpg in the prius, if that was even 50 mpg on lpg that would make for very cheap motoring + the electric motor gives a lot of torque lessening the effect of power loss ?

So we could say that the 69 cent per litre from vv-tech in Kilcullen would work out a real 75 cent or so, still really cheap !

Until the Government cops on that is!

Matt Simis

keithclancy wrote: »

AFAIK its due the the Lubrication properties, in certain engines you need to stick in an additive

Something like this:
http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/valve-saver-fluid.html

On the Dutch forums i've heard its the Jap and Ford engines are more prone to Valve problems after LPG/CNG Conversion.

I dont know if Flashlube is needed over here though. In Oz they have cars running solely on LPG (in EU virtually all run both and start on petrol) and most of their engines are US centric, a market with no LPG penetration at all vs Euro engines which likely have some greater tolerance.

Having another fluid injected and the mechanism to do this adds complexity and expense. The mechanics I spoke to recommended dosing the petrol with Dipetane and consuming a full tank of petrol for every 10LPG fills.. though this only came up as I asked specifically about Flashlube/LPG lubrication last year.

Deleted User wrote: »

So overall I would expect to loose about 10-15 % mpg yes ?
Some people convert high power 6 pot + engines, but surely the fuel consumption would hardly be worth it ?
So I should not consider converting my prius if Jap cars are having problems with it ?

It's easy for me to get 62 mpg in the prius, if that was even 50 mpg on lpg that would make for very cheap motoring + the electric motor gives a lot of torque lessening the effect of power loss ?

I think your maths are completely backwards on this one. IMO, it only makes sense on high power vehicles as their MPG is so low any saving in economy (the $$ kind) makes a massive difference. On a Prius this is utterly pointless, you are way into diminishing returns already, the time to repay the cost of retrofitting would be off the wall. It also might not work well with the start stop, electric motor running etc aspect of the car. Its just a terrible platform for conversion.

Put in the figures here and see yourself: fuel.netcessible.com

keithclancy

Matt Simis wrote: »

I think your maths are completely backwards on this one. IMO, it only makes sense on high power vehicles as their MPG is so low any saving in economy (the $$ kind) makes a massive difference. On a Prius this is utterly pointless, you are way into diminishing returns, the time to repay the cost of retrofitting would be off the wall.

Put in the figures here and see yourself: fuel.netcessible.com

+1, was in a Station one day and saw a guy filling a Prius at the LPG pump.

Asked the guy and basically he converted it to LPG because the Prius as a Hybrid incurrs no Motor Tax, but he has no boot and the thing carrying batteries, petrol and a 50liter LPG Tank is as slow as anything.

Well that's a 91 cent in the difference at current petrol prices, even at 20% efficiency loss that's a massive saving.

If the conversion costs 1 grand from vv-tech and we do 20k-30k miles a year the conversion is paid back in just over 6 months and pure profit after that!

Other than that electric is the cheapest way forward, by a hefty margin again. 1.80 per 60 miles at 65 mph in the Nissan Leaf or 1.80 for 100 miles at 45-50 mph. It doesn't get cheaper than that!

keithclancy

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's a 91 cent in the difference at current petrol prices, even at 20% efficiency loss that's a massive saving.

If the conversion costs 1 grand from vv-tech and we do 20k-30k miles a year the conversion is paid back in just over 6 months and pure profit after that!

Other than that electric is the cheapest way forward, by a hefty margin again. 1.80 per 60 miles at 65 mph in the Nissan Leaf or 1.80 for 100 miles at 45-50 mph. It doesn't get cheaper than that!

Pure Profit ? More like Pure saving, your not making any money your saving it

keithclancy

keithclancy wrote: »

Pure Profit ? More like Pure saving, your not making any money your saving it

LOL indeed, I stand corrected!

True though all I got to look at is how long it takes to pay back the conversion.

If it costs me 55 euro's a week on petrol. Then that's 1300 over 6 months 2600 over 1 year maybe more maybe less, but we drive a minimum of 20k miles a year!

To pop into Kilcullen on the way home from Dublin is a small inconvenience to me, it's on the old N9 perfect!

If they had an place in Carlow even better!

keithclancy

keithclancy wrote: »

+1, was in a Station one day and saw a guy filling a Prius at the LPG pump.

Asked the guy and basically he converted it to LPG because the Prius as a Hybrid incurrs no Motor Tax, but he has no boot and the thing carrying batteries, petrol and a 50liter LPG Tank is as slow as anything.

HAHA I found a correction for you too. The prius does have road tax, I pay 380 on the old engine size because it's a 07, then it's emissions based from 08.

The prius has as much room as any car even counting the small little battery behind the back seat. In fact it is a fairly decent size car.

keithclancy

Deleted User wrote: »

HAHA I found a correction for you too. The prius does have road tax, I pay 380 on the old engine size because it's a 07, then it's emissions based from 08.

The prius has as much room as any car even counting the small little battery behind the back seat. In fact it is a fairly decent size car.

Here in NL the Prius and other Hybrids are BPM free and was Motor Tax free, think the new model incurs 150/quarter or something thereabouts

The reason he had no boot is becuase he had to put the LPG Tank somewhere.

You could get one of these:


But its a bit small

Yeah it looks a bit small, filling stations are few, so it would need to be big enough.

I don't know if it would be worth it to convert the prius, it being an 07 and I probably wouldn't keep it too long. I want to get a leaf when they come down in price as that is the ultimate cheap way to drive!

dainius

Inbred wrote: »

Does anybody know what's the story after having the stuff installed? I mean, like the NCT/tax/insurance. I fancy a jap petrol car and the LPG appeals (there's a filling station nearby here).

there is one little proplem with japs and fords on LPG-the valve seats burn in 20-40k kms. The replacement involves removing the cylinder head and the bill will be around 500-800 euro, depending on the garage. Once replaced, wont happen again. If you drive a jap car, its worth converting. if you consider buying a jap to convert to lpg-add extra money to you conversion cost

dainius

fryup wrote: »

does LPG cars lack.....power

big car with 1.6 engine on lpg will sure lack power-approx 10% less. 2.0L engine wont feel the diference

How about the 1.4 turbo petrols 120-140 hp from vag and fiat ?

dainius

Deleted User wrote: »

How about the 1.4 turbo petrols 120-140 hp from vag and fiat ?

Simple rule-if the car lacks power on petrol that makes you want to jump out and kick it in the back while driving, it will lack slightly more on LPG. If the car has enough power to overtake other cars or go up the hill with 2 extra passengers, then you are fine

ciaranmul

So would you recommend converting a 2004 Ford F150 5.4 to LPG or would the valves burn on this also??

dainius

ciaranmul wrote: »

So would you recommend converting a 2004 Ford F150 5.4 to LPG or would the valves burn on this also??

Hell yeah. By the time they will burn you'd save 4 times the repair cost. On the other hand-F150 is an american ford, so valve seats may not be an issue.

Our man in Havana

Got my RAV4 converted to gas yesterday, cost €550. Fully automated system, 50 litre tank. Costs me €30 to fill it. Gas is €0.65 a litre here but that is still less than half the price of petrol. Only con is the tank is in the boot.