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Low-income families and unemployed can't achieve basic standard of living

  • 06-02-2012 4:35pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭


    Interesting article on Finfacts, referencing a newly-published report.
    Representative focus groups comprising different household types across the country and they were asked what they needed for a basic standard of living. A distinction was made between needs and wants.

    At the end of the process, 2,000 different items from an electric cooker to bread and milk were found to input into a basic standard of living.

    The report found that in a household with two adults and two children with both adults working, for example, the minimum expenditure needed to achieve a basic standard of living was around €540 a week. The figure would be higher if the children were in secondary school.

    This figure was then compared with the income of that household. The report found that those with low incomes or who were unemployed found it impossible to reach the €540 figure and were cutting back on basics to make ends meet.

    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023885.shtml

    €540 a week - €2160 a month after tax. That's a very high figure. It's pretty tricky to reach that on a good income, when you consider that it doesn't include mortgage/rent.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    (1) The Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice doesn't strike me as an independent research group in the sense that it is unbiased in its approach.
    (2) "a minimum essential standard of living is defined by the United Nations as one which meets a person’s physical, psychological, spiritual and social needs."
    This is a definition which can give a researcher a lot of leeway in determining what should be included. Why a UN definition rather than an OECD definition?
    (3) Just to pick one category - communications - this is given as €46.44 per week with both kids at second level, equivalent to €201.24 per month (*52/12). UPC is €86 per month for all your calls to landlines, 50 mb broadband and digital max max tv with digital plus and multiroom for one other room. €20 per month credit on four mobile phones giving free texts to all phones on a meteor plan gives you €80 for a total of €166 per month. That leaves us short of the €201.24 per month in the study's budget. The other €35 could be put towards calls to premium numbers, saved for smartphones or you could add Sky Sports for €33 per month, strangely leaving you very close to the total in the report. Are we to assume that 50mb broadband and multi-room TV with Sky Sports, a mobile for everyone in the house is the minimum standard?
    (4) Just to show it is not one category that is strange, the category for household fuel gives a monthly cost of €159 or thereabouts. Again my bill is around €150 for gas and electricity. Seems pretty accurate except I live in a poorly insulated large four-bedroomed house. Again, is that the minimum requirement?

    I will read the report if and when it is available in full but even from those few points it is clearly full of holes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭Nidot


    €540 a week I would think is high enough amount. Could it possibly include accomodation charge, whether that be mortgage payment or rent charge.

    For example €540 a week works out at €28,080
    (€540 * 52 weeks)

    Given this is an after tax amount lets say that the couple pay an intermediate level of tax based on most recent available figures (http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/global_economy/article_1022279_printer.shtml)
    - for a couple both working this would be an effective tax rate of 21.1%.

    So for the couple to make the above amount net they would have to be earning €35,590 gross.
    (€28,080 / (1 - 0.211) = €35,590.

    This is greater than the avaergae industrial wage if I'm not mistaken of €33,000 (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inbs-staff-earned-less-than-industrial-wage-2147206.html).

    So what the report is saying is that anybody earning below the average industrial wage can't theoretically afford a basic standard of living. This I find very hard to believe.

    The only detail I would suggest is that the cost of accomodation as I suggested above has not been included here but implicitly implied.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    €540 a week - €2160 a month after tax. That's a very high figure. It's pretty tricky to reach that on a good income, when you consider that it doesn't include mortgage/rent.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    €2,160p.m. after tax is about €33,000 gross per year - that's not very far off the Average Industrial Wage, which is back at around 2006 levels I believe.

    wages-graph.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    It's becoming pretty clear that in Ireland,. the cost of living is simply too high.
    A lot of people call for the dole, social welfare and minimum wage to be cut, but I think the bottom line is that if it's not enough for people to live on, it means the cost of living is way too high, and the government is persistently failing to address that.

    What about something like a cap on rents, stop allowing public service companies and public transport to keep increasing their prices in the middle of a recession, etc?
    We need some kind of deflation in this country, and it strikes me that this is the area the government needs to address.

    Some might call it over regulation, but clearly the free market isn't working in this country for some reason. Would anyone object to legislation NOT allowing doctors to charge 60 euro for a checkup, and NOT allowing the dart to charge almost 5 euro to get into town and back?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭Nidot


    Nidot wrote: »
    €540 a week I would think is high enough amount. Could it possibly include accomodation charge, whether that be mortgage payment or rent charge.

    For example €540 a week works out at €28,080
    (€540 * 52 weeks)

    Given this is an after tax amount lets say that the couple pay an intermediate level of tax based on most recent available figures (http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/global_economy/article_1022279_printer.shtml)
    - for a couple both working this would be an effective tax rate of 21.1%.

    So for the couple to make the above amount net they would have to be earning €35,590 gross.
    (€28,080 / (1 - 0.211) = €35,590.

    This is greater than the avaergae industrial wage if I'm not mistaken of €33,000 (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inbs-staff-earned-less-than-industrial-wage-2147206.html).

    So what the report is saying is that anybody earning below the average industrial wage can't theoretically afford a basic standard of living. This I find very hard to believe.

    The only detail I would suggest is that the cost of accomodation as I suggested above has not been included here but implicitly implied.


    Also something just thinking about there. If the two people are working full time as it says in the piece then the following should apply:

    Minimum Wage = €7.65 / Hour
    Working Week = 37.5 Hours
    Therefor weekly earnings = €286.87

    With two people earning = €573.75

    Per Year = €29,835

    Also given these figures no income tax would be paid by either earner only USC.

    So based on this, given that it judges that both people are full time earners, it is actually impossible to have income stated in the article.

    Is it just me or is there something seriously smelling of fish coming from this.

    At the very least the numbers don't add up.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    €2,160p.m. after tax is about €33,000 gross per year - that's not very far off the Average Industrial Wage, which is back at around 2006 levels I believe.

    wages-graph.png

    Yes - the problem is, though, that those costs don't include mortgage/rent!

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Interesting article on Finfacts, referencing a newly-published report.

    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023885.shtml

    €540 a week - €2160 a month after tax. That's a very high figure. It's pretty tricky to reach that on a good income, when you consider that it doesn't include mortgage/rent.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    I'd almost say laughably high. When the recession bit initially I was able to live in a Dublin city centre apartment, with broadband, with TV, with good eating for €600 per month. Obviously that's just me and sharing a two bed but it wasn't that difficult. Moore street meat shopping and Corpo veg markets for fruit and veg.

    Actually I'm going to officially say that figure, which doesn't include rent or mortgage, is ludicrous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    I would simply ask, has this research been peer reviewed?

    If not, it's not worth its paper.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭n900guy


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Interesting article on Finfacts, referencing a newly-published report.



    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023885.shtml

    €540 a week - €2160 a month after tax. That's a very high figure. It's pretty tricky to reach that on a good income, when you consider that it doesn't include mortgage/rent.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    I agree. Throw on the €850 or so allowance for rent, and free medical care.....

    Basically that is a €50k a year private sector salary (after tax 50k = €2928 per month salary) or €58k public sector salary (€2904/mth).

    For nothing. One junior doctor doign 60-70 hrs a week or one pretty well-employed bank worker or IT person - they are paying taxes to pay the exact same salary to someone doing...absolutely...nothing.....

    It's shocking. 50-60k a year salaries are *higher end* salaries yet the net income apparently is not good enough. So, are they going to cut taxes for those actually paying the tax? No. Increase those, and make it easier to maintain the income for those earning 50k a year for nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Other than "Social inclusion and participation" (what the hell is that? :confused:), I didn't see anything on that list that was glaringly out of place. I think they have overestimated on a few things like clothes and the like, but that is probably just an average of what is spent over the year, including school uniforms.

    On your point, while satellite tv is not a necessity, how are people supposed to look for a job without a phone? And I don't think $20/month is an unreasonable outlay to have an internet connection, which also helps with job searches (and children's homework). Having an internet connection can also help save on phone bills - if you use skype or GTalk then you can get away with a cheap pre-pay phone to receive incoming calls. Please don't say "USE A LIBRARY!!!" because they are completely overwhelmed, and what few internet cafes that are available in most areas are expensive enough that even if you only spent an hour a day there, M-F, you are better off just getting your own broadband.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    To but this into context I was reading that if you earn $41,000 you are in the top 3% of world incomes. If the €35k figure above is correct that would be $46k. Starving I'd imagine. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    meglome wrote: »
    To but this into content I was reading that if you earn $41,000 you are in the top 3% of world incomes. If the €35k figure above is correct that would be $46k. Starving I'd imagine. :rolleyes:

    Sorry, but that is a ridiculous comparison. $41,000 means something completely different if you live in Manhattan versus Mali. This is beyond comparing apples and oranges; more like apples and Audis.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Sorry, but that is a ridiculous comparison. $41,000 means something completely different if you live in Manhattan versus Mali. This is beyond comparing apples and oranges; more like apples and Audis.

    So Manhattan is the only place you can live in New York? It still puts a perspective on just how much money that is. This is supposed to a minimum for people to get by, it certain isn't that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,417 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    RTE mentioned only those who on dole

    Welfare not funding 'basic standard of living'
    A report funded by the Department of Social Protection suggests that the majority of families dependent on Jobseeker's Benefit do not have an adequate income for a basic standard of living.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    That buys a lot of clothing, especially if the family is shopping in sales and buying non-branded items. Granted, some items of clothing such as suits (for job interviews) and warm winter coats and boots may cost a bit more, but these items don't have to be purchased anew every single year. If worn occasionally, a good suit or winter coat can last years.

    Irish prices are often higher than other countries. But thanks to the Penneys and Dunnes of this world Irish clothes prices are lower, if anything. While false economy on shoes might not be desirable, it is easy to get perfectly serviceable coats, hoodies, jumpers, underwear, socks etc in these places.

    And internet with UTVinternet, available in most places gives unlimited landline calls after hours for less than €50.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    RTE mentioned only those who on dole

    Welfare not funding 'basic standard of living'
    It's not supposed to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    For me looking at the table in the report sums up how bad most Irish people/families are at budgeting and living within their means. While it would be great to be able to save €28 a week I don't think that's one of the essentials that social welfare should be providing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    meglome wrote: »
    So Manhattan is the only place you can live in New York? It still puts a perspective on just how much money that is. This is supposed to a minimum for people to get by, it certain isn't that.

    But the point is, a minimum to get by where? It doesn't make sense to tell a struggling family "suck it up, your're rich by global standards" when the more accurate and relevant point of comparison is within that society - or at least with a define set of 'peer' nations such as the EU. Even within the OECD, there is tremendous variance in terms of how far the same level of income will take you.

    To Permabear's point, I think it would be hard to differentiate between regions in a country as small as Ireland, but I don't see why there couldn't be cost of living adjustment for the Greater Dublin area. But given how wonky the existing numbers are, I'd have to wonder about those figures!
    For me looking at the table in the report sums up how bad most Irish people/families are at budgeting and living within their means. While it would be great to be able to save €28 a week I don't think that's one of the essentials that social welfare should be providing.

    Is that meant to be what they are providing? I thought it was simply a calculated baseline, and presumably social welfare policy would follow on from this. :confused:

    I also find it a bit telling that $28/week is put into savings, while $62/week is put into "social inclusion" - barring the fact that I still have no idea what "social inclusion" means as a budget line item, if this is supposed to represent a "model" baseline budget, shouldn't this at least be reversed?

    Again, I don't have a problem with most of the categories, but I think the actual figures are problematic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Is that meant to be what they are providing? I thought it was simply a calculated baseline, and presumably social welfare policy would follow on from this. :confused:

    I also find it a bit telling that $28/week is put into savings, while $62/week is put into "social inclusion" - barring the fact that I still have no idea what "social inclusion" means as a budget line item, if this is supposed to represent a "model" baseline budget, shouldn't this at least be reversed?

    Again, I don't have a problem with most of the categories, but I think the actual figures are problematic.


    I'm not actually sure what the point of the report is for as the actually report and the spin the journalists of various different sources have put on it is quite confusing. However if the plan for social welfare is to follow on from this then would they not be expecting some type of saving or would they simply account the other categories? The figures to me seem pretty large. The report seems very mis-leading aswell an I'd be interested to know who set the guidelines and how much influence the Department had.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    But the point is, a minimum to get by where? It doesn't make sense to tell a struggling family "suck it up, your're rich by global standards" when the more accurate and relevant point of comparison is within that society - or at least with a define set of 'peer' nations such as the EU. Even within the OECD, there is tremendous variance in terms of how far the same level of income will take you.

    I get the point but the amounts being quoted are good enough to live almost anywhere, for $46k you could live in Manhattan. With proper budgeting you could live extremely well anywhere in Ireland for that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    both adults working and with 2 kids, childcare costs around 250euro per week,lol, its no wonder its not possible for such a family to survive on 536euro a week.

    Better off going on the dole in that case 2x185=370 euro per week and 250euro saved on childcare + petrol to/from childminder/creche.

    Ignoring idiots who comment "far right" because they don't even know what it means



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    meglome wrote: »
    I get the point but the amounts being quoted are good enough to live almost anywhere, for $46k you could live in Manhattan. With proper budgeting you could live extremely well anywhere in Ireland for that.

    LOL, are you serious? Have you ever lived in Manhattan? A single person would be scraping to get by on that salary, much less a family of four.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    LOL, are you serious? Have you ever lived in Manhattan? A single person would be scraping to get by on that salary, much less a family of four.

    I admit I exaggerated on Manhattan, though you wouldn't need to go that far from it. Do you disagree that you could live well anywhere in Ireland for that money? Do you disagree that you could almost live anywhere for that kind of money?

    To be honest I'm mostly just incredulous that these figures are being quoted as a minimum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Looks like Enda got there first
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-costs-have-to-be-driven-down-538824.html

    The Taoiseach says costs will have to be driven down to ensure a better standard of living for those on social welfare or in receipt of the minimum wage.

    Enda Kenny was reacting to a new study - part funded by the Department of Social Protection - which found that families in those income brackets don't have enough money to get by, and run the risk of living in poverty.

    The report found that families with either teenagers or young babies were particularly at risk.

    But the Taoiseach told Midlands 103 that it's not simply a case of increasing payments to those at risk:

    "What you need to be able to do is give people the best standard of living that you can give them and that means you got to change structures in a way that everybody can benefit from the plans to develop our economy. It’s not easy in the challenging time ahead".

    I assume he is just pre-empting their attack.

    Interesting to note that James Reilly said there was no reasonable excuse as to why VHI should be increasing their premiums again just last weekend.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    meglome wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I think that income would still be difficult in most major coastal cities in the US. It's hard for me to say in Ireland, because I'm not really familiar with the tax structure there.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'm not disagreeing with you: I think the numbers are quite high, even though the categories are generally reasonable.

    I think one thing that gets lost when these kinds of studies are done is how carefully most middle-income people watch their expenditures on this kind of stuff. So to have someone sweeping in assuming that everyone is 'entitled' to the latest SkyTV package, or to eat out twice a week or whatever is a bit of a slap in the face: people need to figure out how to make do.

    I also think that proponents of expansive social welfare policies are strangely disconnected from what low-income working parents, and in particular single parents actually spend most of their money on (after rent): childcare. The lack of affordable childcare and early childhood education disproportionately affects low-income working families (and middle-income single-parent households); instead of cash handouts for tv and the like, why not address this hurdle, which would allow more people to work and/or go back to school and would have a positive impact on educational development?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,367 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    The media need to treat this report either one of two ways: by denying it the oxygen of publicity or by utterly ridiculing it.

    A single income family earning 50k and renting a normal 3 bed terraced house in Dublin wouldn't have €2,000 a month left after their rent was paid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    i'm on the poverty line i earn less than that
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/k...wn-538824.html

    The Taoiseach says costs will have to be driven down to ensure a better standard of living for those on social welfare or in receipt of the minimum wage.

    Enda Kenny was reacting to a new study - part funded by the Department of Social Protection - which found that families in those income brackets don't have enough money to get by, and run the risk of living in poverty.

    The report found that families with either teenagers or young babies were particularly at risk.

    But the Taoiseach told Midlands 103 that it's not simply a case of increasing payments to those at risk:

    "What you need to be able to do is give people the best standard of living that you can give them and that means you got to change structures in a way that everybody can benefit from the plans to develop our economy. It’s not easy in the challenging time ahead".

    enda wont address the elephant though (just hide behind the troika told me to do it)

    unfortunatly all we see is gov upping costs fuel duty, carbon tax, houshold charge, septic tank charge, water charges, VAT just to name a few a lot of which you are exempt if you are on benefits which is great, but i certainly wont qualify for any releifs


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    This is just a minor point, but a few posters have commented on television. Personally, I seldom watch TV, so I obviously accept that one can live quite happily without one (well, I could anyhow!), but satellite television can be accessed quite cheaply now. I have no problem with it being classed as an "essential" for the purposes of a study such as this (children in particular would probably feel somewhat excluded from their peer group without one).

    A DIY satellite dish installation kit can be purchased for less than 200 euro - that means you can get all the "terrestrial" British channels like BBC and C4 for a one-off outlay. Depending on where you live, a small aerial may be sufficient to pick up the Irish stations. You could probably get yourself a used, brand name CRT set for nothing if you go looking - there are people giving those things away at this stage (which means that you can get a large, well-made TV; and one which, unlike the LCDs everyone is into these days, actually displays standard definition correctly). Chuck in a Sony DVD player (under £30sterling off Amazon), and build yourself a DVD library from charity shops (or even buy new DVDs - I bought Quentin Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds for 3euro in HMV the other day). Home entertainment on a budget.

    Arguably the most onerous expense (other than the initial cost of the dish) is the TV license, which is just over 3euro a week. But Pat Kenny is totally worth it:P!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I think, more likely from the circular nature of his comments, that he was paying lip service to something he reads about in reports and has no way or will to address from within the cloistered world of government buildings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    i'm on the poverty line i earn less than that



    enda wont address the elephant though (just hide behind the troika told me to do it)

    unfortunatly all we see is gov upping costs fuel duty, carbon tax, houshold charge, septic tank charge, water charges, VAT just to name a few a lot of which you are exempt if you are on benefits which is great, but i certainly wont qualify for any releifs

    In what Ireland are the unemployed exempt from increased fuel duty, carbon tax, water charges ans VAT increases? There are no reliefs for the unemployed for any of these. They pay same as everyone else.



    As for the Household Charge:
    Who has to pay

    If you own a dwelling, you are liable for the Household Charge on it, subject to the waivers and exemptions listed below. If your house is rented out, you are liable for the charge – not your tenant. However, if it is let on a lease of more than 20 years, the person to whom it is leased is the owner for the purposes of the charge.

    Virtually all private residential properties, including apartments and bedsits, are liable for the charge. Waivers and exemptions are described below

    Waivers

    If you are entitled to Mortgage Interest Supplement on the liability date (1 January each year) you can claim a waiver of the Household Charge.

    People living in certain unfinished housing estates can also claim a waiver for the years 2012 and 2013. Details of qualifying estates are published on the Household Charge website.

    You must still register your property in order to claim either waiver – see ‘How to apply’ below.

    Exemptions

    Dwellings are exempt from the Household Charge if they are:

    Part of the trading stock of a business and have not been sold or been the source of any income since construction or
    Owned by government departments or the Health Service Executive or
    Owned by local authorities or voluntary housing bodies (including dwellings not yet fully bought from a local authority under the shared ownership scheme) or
    Liable for commercial rates or
    In a discretionary trust or owned by an approved charity.
    Mobile homes are also exempt.

    Your property is also exempt from the charge if you had to vacate it for over a year before the liability date due to a long-term mental or physical infirmity – this is largely to cover situations where people are in nursing homes or have moved in with relatives because of their need for care. To be exempt from the charge in 2012, you must have vacated the property on 31 December 2010 or earlier.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/household_charge.html

    So exemption to the household charge apply to all tenants - regardless of employment status. For private tenancies the landlord is liable (although I imagine some will try and pass this charge on to their tenants).

    Anyone who rents from a local authority, housing association, the HSE or a charitable trust is not liable - whether they are employed or not.

    Anyone living on what is classified as a 'ghost estate' is not liable - whether they are employed or not.
    etc etc etc.

    Only those unemployed home owners in receipt of Mortgage Interest Relief Supplement will be granted an exception. The reality of this particular supplement is that it is extremely hard to qualify for.

    In 2011 the total number of households claiming was under 20,000, ( http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/claims-for-mortgage-supplement-now-five-times-higher-than-in-2007-212259-Aug2011/ ) given that we have over 400,000 on the live register alone I suspect this is a drop in the ocean of how many home owners are currently unemployed but do not qualify for either MIRS and by extention the Household charge exception. Each of those will have to pay - while employed people living in Local Authority Housing will be exempt.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    In 2011 the total number of households claiming was under 20,000, ( http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/claims-for-mortgage-supplement-now-five-times-higher-than-in-2007-212259-Aug2011/ ) given that we have over 400,000 on the live register alone I suspect this is a drop in the ocean of how many home owners are currently unemployed but do not qualify for either MIRS and by extention the Household charge exception. Each of those will have to pay - while employed people living in Local Authority Housing will be exempt.

    And is there something wrong with that? They own a house, some of them may even own a house with no mortgage - more than half of the houses in the country have no mortgage, so some of them must show up in the 400,000. Why should a minimum wage person living in a local authority house pay the tax while someone on JSB with no mortgage and plenty of savings not pay it? It is a tax on housing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Godge wrote: »
    And is there something wrong with that? They own a house, some of them may even own a house with no mortgage - more than half of the houses in the country have no mortgage, so some of them must show up in the 400,000. Why should a minimum wage person living in a local authority house pay the tax while someone on JSB with no mortgage and plenty of savings not pay it? It is a tax on housing.

    That was not the point I was making Godge and you know that.


    I was responding directly to
    Originally Posted by ednwireland


    unfortunatly all we see is gov upping costs fuel duty, carbon tax, houshold charge, septic tank charge, water charges, VAT just to name a few a lot of which you are exempt if you are on benefits which is great, but i certainly wont qualify for any releifs

    by showing this is simply not true.

    BTW - what on earth makes you assume everyone living in either local authority or housing association properties who is employed is on minimum wage?

    The reality is a person on 50k who lives in a Cluid apartment/council house has an exemption but a person on SW who is struggling to pay a mortgage but fails to qualify for mortgage relief supplement doesn't.

    I made no comment as to the fairness or otherwise of this - simply pointing out the facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    BTW - what on earth makes you assume everyone living in either local authority or housing association properties who is employed is on minimum wage?

    The reality is a person on 50k who lives in a Cluid apartment/council house has an exemption but a person on SW who is struggling to pay a mortgage but fails to qualify for mortgage relief supplement doesn't.

    I made no comment as to the fairness or otherwise of this - simply pointing out the facts.


    I only used the example but in essence I have no problem with the person on 50k living in a council house being exempt. They don't own the house, they don't own wealth or are not on the way to owning wealth. They can be evicted by the local authority. No matter what a houseowner does, they can't be evicted as long as they keep paying the mortgage (and after the mortgage is over, that doesn't apply (unless the property is condemned) and at the end of the day, they own a valuable asset. Should that asset be taxed? Absolutely, in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Godge wrote: »
    I only used the example but in essence I have no problem with the person on 50k living in a council house being exempt. They don't own the house, they don't own wealth or are not on the way to owning wealth. They can be evicted by the local authority. No matter what a houseowner does, they can't be evicted as long as they keep paying the mortgage (and after the mortgage is over, that doesn't apply (unless the property is condemned) and at the end of the day, they own a valuable asset. Should that asset be taxed? Absolutely, in my opinion.

    As I said - my point was that being on SW does not grant one an immunity from increases in stealth taxes and rising prices or nor does it automatically confer a exception to property related charges as ednwireland seems to believe it does.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    The report highlights the obvious Irelands cost of living is too high due to an inability to reign in state and semistate service providers . Our domestic sector is uncompetitive as a result , our public service is overpaid by any standard further feeding into our costs .our standard of living is not realistic in light of our real economic situation . A major restructure of our economy is required however with a Labour tail wagging the government dog only the trioka can hope to make this happen


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Sean Bateman


    What a load of rubbish.

    So called low income families and the unemployed need to realise that the following are LUXURIES:

    Cigarettes
    Alcohol
    Foreign holidays
    Nike runners


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    What a load of rubbish.

    So called low income families and the unemployed need to realise that the following are LUXURIES:

    Cigarettes
    Alcohol
    Foreign holidays
    Nike runners

    Where are any of those allocated for in the budget in question?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Sean Bateman


    Where are any of those allocated for in the budget in question?

    "Social Inc & Participation", no?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭KKkitty


    The title is my life now. Why would anyone in the government care about the cuts they force on the people of this country. Their families won't suffer and will get the best of everything thanks to the humble taxpayers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    "Social Inc & Participation", no?

    Social inclusion and participation may mean smoking, having a few pints while wearing nikes in Malaga to you- but for many people it means going to the pictures or meeting friends for a coffee in a cafe. Not everyone drinks alcohol or smokes or wears trainers of any brand - as for foreign holidays - HA!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    KKkitty wrote: »
    The title is my life now. Why would anyone in the government care about the cuts they force on the people of this country. Their families won't suffer and will get the best of everything thanks to the humble taxpayers.

    What do you expect? TD's have jobs.

    I presume you were paying upwards of 20k per year in taxes, right? Because that's what you have to be paying to be a net tax contributer in this state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,696 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Does a 'basic standard of living' include the ability to have subscription TV services?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Sean Bateman


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    for many people it means going to the pictures or meeting friends for a coffee in a cafe

    Luxuries which someone on the breadline shouldn't be able to afford and which nobody is entitled to.

    Social welfare or the minimum wage should allow people live at the basic subsistence level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Social welfare or the minimum wage should allow people live at the basic subsistence level.

    So what if people on welfare can have the occasional coffee out or trip to the cinema? Do you really want people unfortunate enough to be out of work to have to live with their heads constantly just above water? We should start stockpiling the anti-depressants now if we plan on going down that route, because we'd be prescribing plenty of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Kinski wrote: »
    So what if people on welfare can have the occasional coffee out or trip to the cinema? Do you really want people unfortunate enough to be out of work to have to live with their heads constantly just above water? We should start stockpiling the anti-depressants now if we plan on going down that route, because we'd be prescribing plenty of them.

    That's what it's designed for to keep your head above water.

    If you want to carry on buying poxy moch choca's or latte's then save some of your money while your working for such things.

    sure why don't we send them all on a yearly cruise just incase they get a bit depressed here with the bad weather

    anymore bright ideas?


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