Why Ireland, Why?

djjdomahony

I genuinely cant understand how Ireland can fail to win games like todays against Wales... a few points to consider

-Wales missing 5 of their pack
-Sam Warburton goes off at half time
-Welsh player sin binned at 65 mins
-Ireland are at home
-they miss a conversion
-we are allowed to kick deep into 22

from this point, all we had to do was make a few hits and keep them in their own half without giving away penalties.

Instead we allow them to run from their 22 into ours and give them a penalty in front of the posts

The fact that are provincial teams are doing so well I personally feel its slightly embarrassing that our national team can not win games like today.

Gutted

justsomebloke

There is a mod warning straight off the bat on this

pc7

djjdomahony wrote: »

The fact that are provincial teams are doing so well
Gutted

This is what puzzles me, you watch them play for provinces and they are awesome, stick on a green shirt and they are not recognisable

Cpt_Blackbeard

It's men against boys in the backs. We will always have trouble against Wales until we can stand up to them defensively.

profitius

Well I've been defending Kidney for ages but not anymore. He has had his chances now. Ireland are playing far below the some of its part compared to Wales playing above theirs.

It really was a shocking display... again! He made limited changes to the squad even though everyone thought changes were needed with the exception of a few people in the media.

He is under pressure now and he knows it because he was talking about the Welsh having more time together.

That was a sh!te performances littered with mistakes. We need the national team playing well to boost rugby and they've performed to an unexceptable level now for years.

The worst thing of all is you know theres going to be limited changes made. So expect another defeat in Paris next week.

Lapin

5 posts and no mention of outhalf You know who V You know who.

Must be a record

pc7

Lapin wrote: »

5 posts and no mention of outhalf You know who V You know who.

Must be a record

Well I reckonn there was a lot more wrong with the game plan today than any 2 players

djjdomahony

I agree 100%

the game wasnt lost today because of 1 outhalf or the other...

at the end of the day our gameplan was flawed... how many times did we kick it away aimlessly..

any time we ran and recycled we looked very good and yet we continued to kick it away

at the end of the day I would consider our forwards a better outfit than wales..and yet with 5 of their starting forward missing we not only don't dominate but we get dominated! how? as well warburton off at half time!

kidney just does not get the best out of his players

donfers

and let's not forget "revenge" wa son our minds on top of everything mentioned in the OP

it really beggars belief how they managed to lose that....some will blame the staff, some will blame individual players but the fact is they are all to blame....never seen a back line get over the gainline so easily, honestly in the backs it reminded me of a games back in school when u16's played u18's, it was embarrassing to watch....yet we managed to play ourselves into a winning position yet still we let them walk all over us in the end, shambolic and humiliating, nothing will be done, we'll continue to be predictable and one-paced, we'll win a few games and raise our game every now and then in big games when we are written off but we won't a lot nor will we ever be consistent enough to be a top side

in order to achieve that, we need better coaches, a more imaginative style of play and bigger, stronger, more intelligent players....we have lots of heart and some good players but we're just not quite there at the moment and I can't see that changing unless big changes are made and that will take time

so are we willing to go a few seasons where we'll not win as many but blood new coaches, players and tactics or will we plod along winning 3/5 season playing mediocre rugby with a mixture of ageing tryhard players and raw young guys

tolosenc

profitius wrote: »

Well I've been defending Kidney for ages but not anymore. He has had his chances now. Ireland are playing far below the some of its part compared to Wales playing above theirs.

It really was a shocking display... again! He made limited changes to the squad even though everyone thought changes were needed with the exception of a few people in the media.

He is under pressure now and he knows it because he was talking about the Welsh having more time together.

That was a sh!te performances littered with mistakes. We need the national team playing well to boost rugby and they've performed to an unexceptable level now for years.

The worst thing of all is you know theres going to be limited changes made. So expect another defeat in Paris next week.

Ah, but Grand Slams and Heineken cups count for nothing, do they?

Duckworth_Luas

Lapin wrote: »

5 posts and no mention of outhalf You know who V You know who.

Must be a record

For the record I always went for Ollie Campbell, I never rated Ward!

Chavways

Because Kidney has been using the same gameplan for years and he still doesn't seem to notice that it isn't working.....Among other things

The subs dont come on any earlier than 60 minutes no matter how the game is going.

Theres rarely any innovation in the backs.

The pack are too slow to clear out rucks.

Wales played at a blistering pace compared to us today and most of their backs are on a whole other level of size and skill.

djjdomahony

they do count for something..

BUT it is clearly evident from watching Ireland play over the last 2 seasons that they are not performing to the potential. that is the most frustrating thing!

He needs to go-

A GS...yes


since then...2 very poor 6 nations ( about to become 3!)
and a very poor world cup with a good ireland team

donvito99

They breed 'em big, we just can't IMO.

And they're skilled too, a sublime North or Cuthberth are impossible to stop with the likes of, admittedly courageous players like D'Arcy or Mc Fadden.

Even Bowe was blown away.

Brendan97

djjdomahony wrote: »

I genuinely cant understand how Ireland can fail to win games like todays against Wales... a few points to consider

-Wales missing 5 of their pack
-Sam Warburton goes off at half time
-Welsh player sin binned at 65 mins
-Ireland are at home
-they miss a conversion
-we are allowed to kick deep into 22
-priestland couldn't kick at all

from this point, all we had to do was make a few hits and keep them in their own half without giving away penalties.

Instead we allow them to run from their 22 into ours and give them a penalty in front of the posts

The fact that are provincial teams are doing so well I personally feel its slightly embarrassing that our national team can not win games like today.

Gutted

just another reason

martybike

justsomebloke wrote: »

There is a mod warning straight off the bat on this

Kinda new to this, but just wondering why?

djjdomahony

true that.....how many points did priestland throw away.

while sexton is the man for the future i just dont feel comfortable when he kicks...not even in front of the posts

[Jackass]

martybike wrote: »

Kinda new to this, but just wondering why?

Utopia Parkway

Struggling to see what changes could be made that would make a material difference.

Ryan for DOC maybe.

Earls would have been absolutely marmalised had he played 13 today.

We just don't have a natural openside.

Drop D'Arcy but for who? Paddy Wallace? Pointless.

Cpt_Blackbeard

OSI wrote: »

I really don't think he performs well knowing that O'Gara is sitting on the sidelines waiting for him to screw up and come on to save the day. It's the only way I can comprehend the shift in form between provincial and international.

If he is that fragile, he'll never announce himself as a top international 10.

That said, I don't think having ROG on the bench affects him in such a way. All I know is that his consistency at international level needs to improve.

rugbyman2015

I see hooky is back on the openside trail on RTE.

He's got a point though but seriously would anyone consider o'mahony for the game against the French? Could be an interesting baptism of fire.

The problem is the Ireland management don't want to make wholesale changes this year at the risk of losing games as they are looking for that world cup seeding come December.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If he is that fragile, he'll never announce himself as a top international 10.

That said, I don't think having ROG on the bench affects him in such a way. All I know is that his consistency at international level needs to improve.

I would say the same about Murray, and I think both should be given time. They will click eventually, and I don't think it will take long.

MungBean

Conor O'Shea said yesterday the reason Scotland are so poor is because they have a negative mindset. They dont go out to win the game, they go out hoping their opposition will lose it.

Ireland are not much different from Scotland.

djjdomahony

I reckon France would be a great "baptism of fire" for O Mahony. We need a ground hog like.

Ryan should start after that impact performance.

we just dont have a midfield...and i agree i reckon davies would of "marmalised" earls. Earls cannot tackle or pass..fullstop.

Foxtrol

djjdomahony wrote: »

I reckon France would be a great "baptism of fire" for O Mahony. We need a ground hog like.

As I said on the match thread POM is as much "a ground hog" as SOB is.

djjdomahony

You could be right, but from watching him i think he dosent take on as much ball himself as SOB and JH and so should be there to ruck.

To Alcohol

Have to laugh at the OP and the insinuation that Ireland are a better team than Wales and should be winning this game. Best team won again lads. Best deal with it and move on. Ireland were damn lucky half the Welsh team were missing.

Irish back row is totally overrated by everyone in Ireland and not one of the Irish backs would get into the Welsh first team and thats not even looking at the forwards.

Thats why Ireland, thats why.

Shelflife

Can anyone explain the logic or the thinking behind bringing on reddan and o gara with only 3 mins to go?

Chavways

Shelflife wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic or the thinking behind bringing on reddan and o gara with only 3 mins to go?

I dont think there was any.

marco_polo

Shelflife wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic or the thinking behind bringing on reddan and o gara with only 3 mins to go?

No idea tbh, they were possibly bringing on Rog for the drop goal attempt in the event of halfpenny landing the conversion?

Lapsed Catholic

Shelflife wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic or the thinking behind bringing on reddan and o gara with only 3 mins to go?

The same logic which saw him persist with a plainly rattled O'Gara v Saints in the HEC final in '00 and the same logic which saw him play an injured Wallace v Leicester in '02. Konservatism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Foxtrol

Shelflife wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic or the thinking behind bringing on reddan and o gara with only 3 mins to go?

No not at all. Apart from giving youth a chance I don't even see the logic of the pairings. Redden is quicker to rucks and delivers faster ball to a running OH along with already having a connection with Sexton. Murray is a more physical defender who makes up for ROG's defensive issues, makes more breaks which keeps the defense honest (seeing as ROG doesnt run as often) and would have a connection with ROG from Munster. I'd love to know Kidneys reasoning.

The_Kew_Tour

The defeat does not come as too much of a surprise to me.

I have been saying for a while that this team has underachieved for what they should have won for the so called "Golden Generation".

A few of those Irish lads would not be out of place with some Premiership footballers in the way they love themselves.

They have lost focused and now they are shown to be who they really are.

Wales are just a far superior team to ours and their history suggests that they will not blow chances of taking Championships and Grand Slams if they come their way.

We live in their shadow.

Foxtrol

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The defeat does not come as too much of a surprise to me.

I have been saying for a while that this team has underachieved for what they should have won for the so called "Golden Generation".

A few of those Irish lads would not be out of place with some Premiership footballers in the way they love themselves.

They have lost focused and now they are shown to be who they really are.

Wales are just a far superior team to ours and their history suggests that they will not blow chances of taking Championships and Grand Slams if they come their way.

We live in their shadow.

They actually aren't which is the infuriating thing. They come together and are greater than the sum of their parts. Ireland come together and play below the level they play week in, week out. There is clearly something wrong with the Irish coaching setup.

cabrwab

Maybe we need to think back to 09 and see how everyone looked like they were friends playing for a team, now it's back to Munster v Leinster.

It's the impression I get that the camp is unhappy again.

The banter between rog and sexton in the autumn Internationals where rog seemed to almost helping him succeed.
Now rog is the person on his back hoping he f*cks up.
(is an example of this only not that this is the only position anybody cares about)

Look at the Aussie game in the world cup where they seemed to be playing for each other again.

This is a coaching and a psychology thing at the moment.

BarackPyjama

Here's what happens:

• France humiliate us in Paris next week; so badly that the anger on here will be worse than this week
• We hammer Italy
• We beat Scotland by a few points
• We beat England by a few points in Twickenham

The media claim a moral victory against England in Twickenham. Kidney's job is saved. We continue to under-perform. Rinse and repeat. :rolleyes:

skregs

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Here's what happens:

• France humiliate us in Paris next week; so badly that the anger on here will be worse than this week
• We hammer Italy
• We beat Scotland by a few points
• We beat England by a few points in Twickenham

The media claim a moral victory against England in Twickenham. Kidney's job is saved. We continue to under-perform. Rinse and repeat. :rolleyes:

Ah sure you can't expect to go beatin' France in Paris, can ye?
We get a messy win against Italy and Scotland, well a win is a win is a win boyo, no need to go criticising it.
We beat an appalling England side and IRELAND ARE THE BEST, IGNORE EVERY OTHER MATCH AND JUST CONCRENTRATE ON THE ONE MATCH A YEAR WE PLAY WELL IN


We were dog**** today, and it's all down to one person

BarackPyjama

skregs wrote: »

Ah sure you can't expect to go beatin' France in Paris, can ye?
We get a messy win against Italy and Scotland, well a win is a win is a win boyo, no need to go criticising it.
We beat an appalling England side and IRELAND ARE THE BEST, IGNORE EVERY OTHER MATCH AND JUST CONCRENTRATE ON THE ONE MATCH A YEAR WE PLAY WELL IN


We were dog**** today, and it's all down to one person

Not really sure I understand your post but I suspect we're in agreement. Who's the person that it's down to as a matter of interest?

molloyjh

OSI wrote: »

djjdomahony wrote: »

true that.....how many points did priestland throw away.

while sexton is the man for the future i just dont feel comfortable when he kicks...not even in front of the posts

I really don't think he performs well knowing that O'Gara is sitting on the sidelines waiting for him to screw up and come on to save the day. It's the only way I can comprehend the shift in form between provincial and international.

The more I watch it the more I think it's that he's really just not sold on what the team is doing. He seems to be incredibly frustrated on the field. And that is messing with his head. Coming from a positive environment where he can utilise his talents into that one where we play such backwards rubbish can't be lost on him. And he's such a competitive guy that he can't stand to be playing losing rugby. I mean what must he have been thinking while kicking all that possession away? For as maddening as it must be for us what's it like for them?

skregs

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Not really sure I understand your post but I suspect we're in agreement. Who's the person that it's down to as a matter of interest?

BarackPyjama

skregs wrote: »

Agreed. Although I would imagine that the IRFU themselves are as much to blame. No decent coach is going to take the poisoned chalice coaching job with Ireland. They'd get someone like Joe Schmidt in, handcuff and ball gag him and tell the team to get on the pitch and kick their victories away.

Big Nelly

Shelflife wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic or the thinking behind bringing on reddan and o gara with only 3 mins to go?

Not sure if this is true but I was told the reason he does this is because the players get a bonus for playing for Ireland or they need so many caps per season to get a bonus on there contract. So at end will flood the pitch with players. This came up when I was wondering why he brought on Leo Cullen for all of 15 secs last season......true

desertcircus

To Alcohol wrote: »

Have to laugh at the OP and the insinuation that Ireland are a better team than Wales and should be winning this game. Best team won again lads. Best deal with it and move on. Ireland were damn lucky half the Welsh team were missing.

Irish back row is totally overrated by everyone in Ireland and not one of the Irish backs would get into the Welsh first team and thats not even looking at the forwards.

Thats why Ireland, thats why.

That would be some solace if three of the four Magners semifinalists hadn't been Irish, and if the Heineken Cup hadn't been resident in Ireland for four of the last six years. At international level, yes, Wales are better. But it makes absolutely no sense that they are.

BoardsMember

Foxtrol wrote: »

Apart from giving youth a chance I don't even see the logic of the pairings. Redden is quicker to rucks and delivers faster ball to a running OH along with already having a connection with Sexton. Murray is a more physical defender who makes up for ROG's defensive issues, makes more breaks which keeps the defense honest (seeing as ROG doesnt run as often) and would have a connection with ROG from Munster. I'd love to know Kidneys reasoning.

This is completely on the money.

Even leaving Sexton/Reddan acquaintance out of it....

Reddan hits our big ball carriers with the ball on the gain line repeatedly, he's is the thing that makes Leinster tick, and Ireland too (see first 30 mins v England last year).

More often than not Murray dummies his pass - how on earth is a ball carrier supposed to do anything except stand still and wait for the ball if the passer of the ball is going to dummy the pass, i.e. you dont know when its coming so you stop making runs. With Reddan you know as soon as he puts hands on it you can begin your run. It's just so painfully obvious it hurts!!

And now what will happen: Reddan will start against france away from home. We'll get murdered. Coach will be able to say "told you so". Murray back in for the rest of the 6 nations. QED.

Cpt_Blackbeard

BoardsMember wrote: »

This is completely on the money.

Even leaving Sexton/Reddan acquaintance out of it....

Reddan hits our big ball carriers with the ball on the gain line repeatedly, he's is the thing that makes Leinster tick, and Ireland too (see first 30 mins v England last year).

More often than not Murray dummies his pass - how on earth is a ball carrier supposed to do anything except stand still and wait for the ball if the passer of the ball is going to dummy the pass, i.e. you dont know when its coming so you stop making runs. With Reddan you know as soon as he puts hands on it you can begin your run. It's just so painfully obvious it hurts!!

And now what will happen: Reddan will start against france away from home. We'll get murdered. Coach will be able to say "told you so". Murray back in for the rest of the 6 nations. QED.

What exacvtly do you mean by dummies his pass? If you mean that he throws a dummy then makes a break then you'd be kinda right as he does it 1/2 times a game. If thats not what you mean then you are way off mark. SH's are not allowed to throw a dummy when taking the ball from a ruck.

BoardsMember

He gets the ball ready to pass and doesn't pass, whether you want to call that a dummy or not is a moot point. I'm not sure about the laws on dummying, I thought that maybe this was only when ball in the scrum but could be wrong. My point is that players dont know when to run because they never know when he'll choose to pass it. I'm not talking about whether he runs or passes, I'm talking about when the ball becomes available to pass, he's decided to pass, just nobody knows when he's going to actually do it.

There's a really good example of this where we're camped on their line and McFadden makes a run expecting the ball to come because Murrays hands are hovering over the ball and he's looking at McFadden. Murray decided to delay for no reason, McFadden stops, then Murray decides to pass. Just really poor SH play.

The difference between this with Murray and Reddan is remarkable. With Reddan, in a similar situation, he arrives and the ball leaves, over and over, players all looking to get on the ball with forward momentum because they know it will come and when it will come. This is how Leinster blow teams away.

Dear Declan,

please tell your team to hold onto the ball. They are dangerous with it, other teams are dangerous with it. There is a reason that we have tackles, mauls, rucks etc, it's to try to get the ball back off the other team. Because when you have the ball, you can score, and when you don't, you can concede.

Why do we, game after game after game, spend half our time wrestling for the ball, and the other half defending after we instantly smash it back to them?

When we decided to play with a bit of bouldness yesterday, we scored two pretty stellar tries. We moved quick ball to multiple attack points, kept patient and good hands meant we broke defence and scored twice. The incredibly frustrating thing about the whole game was that we only really did this once or twice.

Why are we afraid of the ball? STOP probing the corners, STOP looking to "slow the game down", STOP thinking that we can win a game with a set piece and a goal kicker, STOP giving the ball away as a number 1 tactic. Has anyone ever seen Sexton / Murray kick so frequently in a game in any Jersey? I certainly haven't.

Funnily enough Declan, the game has changed from the lineout-maul-try-win games of 2005-2009, a brilliant tactic at the time, and when used properly one of the sharpest weapons available to a team. The game has passed you by, and your stubborn refusal to adapt and frank ignorance of this 'new' game is simply unacceptable.

If you want to continue as Head Coach, get with the times. If you can't do this, then it's down to the IRFU to get someone in that will.

While I have utmost respect for your achievements, your weaknesses as a coach are becoming all too apparent over recent seasons. There is no shame in holding your hands up and saying that the water got too deep, but it's a shameful situation if you decide to drown the whole team with you.

yours sincerely,

An Irish Rugby Fan

QDog10

Wales played like and knew they were the far superior team. Monopolised possesion and rarely panicked on the ball. We are far too predictabale and have been for quite some time. Struggle to match teams physically in the back line and conceed the ball for far too long during matches. All the recent post match interviews are focused on our defensive efforts!!
In relation to Kidney i think his hands are tied when it comes to selection.
Is there anyone not in the current squad who would make a difference at this level? I don't think so.
Could go the route of playing James Downey at 12 to give us more of a direct approach and get our back row into the game more??
He clearly doesn't trust his bench considering its rarely used/emptied.
3 minutes for ROG is laughable and demeaning.

Wouldn't think there will be too many changes next week. Earls possibly back into the team but again won't add anything different than what we have.

OldRio

Deleted User wrote: »

Dear Declan,

please tell your team to hold onto the ball. They are dangerous with it, other teams are dangerous with it. There is a reason that we have tackles, mauls, rucks etc, it's to try to get the ball back off the other team. Because when you have the ball, you can score, and when you don't, you can concede.

Why do we, game after game after game, spend half our time wrestling for the ball, and the other half defending after we instantly smash it back to them?

When we decided to play with a bit of bouldness yesterday, we scored two pretty stellar tries. We moved quick ball to multiple attack points, kept patient and good hands meant we broke defence and scored twice. The incredibly frustrating thing about the whole game was that we only really did this once or twice.

Why are we afraid of the ball? STOP probing the corners, STOP looking to "slow the game down", STOP thinking that we can win a game with a set piece and a goal kicker, STOP giving the ball away as a number 1 tactic. Has anyone ever seen Sexton / Murray kick so frequently in a game in any Jersey? I certainly haven't.

Funnily enough Declan, the game has changed from the lineout-maul-try-win games of 2005-2009, a brilliant tactic at the time, and when used properly one of the sharpest weapons available to a team. The game has passed you by, and your stubborn refusal to adapt and frank ignorance of this 'new' game is simply unacceptable.

If you want to continue as Head Coach, get with the times. If you can't do this, then it's down to the IRFU to get someone in that will.

While I have utmost respect for your achievements, your weaknesses as a coach are becoming all too apparent over recent seasons. There is no shame in holding your hands up and saying that the water got too deep, but it's a shameful situation if you decide to drown the whole team with you.

yours sincerely,

An Irish Rugby Fan

Great post

Teferi

QDog10 wrote: »

knew they were the far superior team.

They're not though which is part of the frustration.

BoardsMember

Teferi wrote: »

They're not though which is part of the frustration.

They are. It's frustrating that they are, but they are. Recently they have beaten us more than we have beaten them, and arguably played better rugby than us. I dont think you can justify your statement that they are not better than us.

Question: do Wales think they are better than us.
Answer: Yes
Quesiton: Why?
Answer: Because they have beaten us the last two times we played them.

It's quite simple really.

Maybe you think we should be as good as them, or even better than them. But we arent.